Italian judge issues EU arrest warrants for 22 CIA agents [article]

Nox

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It was always known as a kidnapping. I don't remember anyone not calling it a kidnapping

Apparently our memories are different.

Nox

micosavo

like most things, this could just be a face-saving effort on the part of the italians. Nothing more will be made of it. It will slowly shift away out of the greater public's awareness. I also doubt that the 22 will ever show up!

sceptre

Nox wrote:

I don't remember anyone calling Eichman's capture kidnapping.

Even the Jerusalem Post has referred to the event as the Eichmann kidnapping in a headline. Obviously the event was kidnapping.

Nox

sceptre wrote:

Even the Jerusalem Post has referred to the event as the Eichmann kidnapping in a headline. Obviously the event was kidnapping.

Noted. Thank you. I say again ... my memory is different.

Nox

Manic Moran

Nox wrote:

I don't get it. So the critera for kidnapping is whether you get caught? By the way ... I don't remember anyone calling Eichman's capture kidnapping.

Nox

It's a kidnapping regardless of if you're caught or not.

Real-world issues indicate that governments are going to be running covert ops in other countries whether those other countries like it or not, including 'friends.' US in Italy, Israel in Argentina, British in Ireland, wherever. Sometimes they may be justified, let's say in the Eichman case if Argentina wouldn't extradite.

My issue with the CIA/Italian case isn't that the CIA kidnapped someone. It's one of the things they exist for, after all. It's the fact that there's no point protesting when they get caught doing it. You play with fire, you're going to get burned if you're not careful. Well, guess what? The CIA evidently weren't careful enough.

NTM

monument

Manic Moran wrote:

My issue with the CIA/Italian case isn't that the CIA kidnapped someone.

So, you'd have no problem with another state's agents droping by and picking you up?

Hobbes

Nox wrote:

How convienient.

Yes, especially considering he was under investigation by Italian police at the time, that would make it easy no?

ALLEGED TORTURE. I guess I'm the ONLY person here who remembers the AQ training manual where they are taught to claim torture. I've already discussed kidnapping. However, I will give you credit for using the word 'possible'.

What about those people who have been kidnapped and released later as innocent who also claimed tourture? One such (Canadian national) even had the scars to prove it.

I haven't read the AQ manual, but I have read some of the CIA stuff (When reading up on La Pensa). AFAIR a lot of the AQ manual learnt its tricks from that but then they did train them to begin with.

Of course if I was you I would never acknowledge that you read the AQ manual unless you want a holiday.

Manic Moran wrote:

My issue with the CIA/Italian case isn't that the CIA kidnapped someone. It's one of the things they exist for, after all.

So your basically saying that Kidnapping people from other countries without the permission of that said country is ok in your book? Or only that the US does it? Why stop there?

Manic Moran

It is a bit of a controversial opinion, isn't it?

There is little doubt that in a perfect world, such organisations/operations would have no great need to exist.
"Oi! Argentina! Send us Eichman please, he needs to stand trial."
"Certainly. Would you like him gift-wrapped? Just fill out this extradition form"

Of course the reality is slightly different.

"Oi! Argentina! Send us Eichman please, he needs to stand trial"
"No"
"Oh. Why not?"
"We don't want to"
"How about all those people he executed"
"Well, we don't think it's such a big deal."

A country's government exists to serve its people, not to pander to other countries' preferences. Therefore, it could be argued that they have a moral obligation to do whatever is necessary in order to do this. These operations can take less intrusive forms, such as spying, or pretty blatant ones such as assasination and kidnapping. Of course, excessive use of such policies will hurt the country using it, so it would not serve the people much, so it is a very fine balancing act. For the Italian case, I have absolutely no idea why the US didn't go through normal channels, I would have thought the Italians would be co-operative.

NTM

monument

It looks as if you are saying yes to my question ("you'd have no problem with another state's agents dropping by and picking you up?"), if that state could argue "that they have a moral obligation" to do so.

Are you saying such?

Nox

Manic Moran wrote:

For the Italian case, I have absolutely no idea why the US didn't go through normal channels, I would have thought the Italians would be co-operative.

Everyone still assumes the CIA is lying about Italian cooperation. And now it's the CIA's fault about the AQ manual. God, will there EVER be a time when something isn't the fault of the USofA?

O well.

Nox

Manic Moran

monument wrote:

It looks as if you are saying yes to my question ("you'd have no problem with another state's agents dropping by and picking you up?"), if that state could argue "that they have a moral obligation" to do so.

Are you saying such?

As a company-grade officer in a relatively unimportant unit, with no personal plans which would constitute a threat to any other country, and without a history of war crimes, I don't think I'm in any particular danger.

NTM

Nox

Manic Moran wrote:

I don't think I'm in any particular danger.

What about an agent from ... Nox?

Nox

A Dub in Glasgo

Nox wrote:

Everyone still assumes the CIA is lying about Italian cooperation. And now it's the CIA's fault about the AQ manual. God, will there EVER be a time when something isn't the fault of the USofA?

O well.

Nox

And you are assuming that the Us have no case to answer, why is that?

monument

Manic Moran wrote:

As a company-grade officer in a relatively unimportant unit, with no personal plans which would constitute a threat to any other country, and without a history of war crimes, I don't think I'm in any particular danger.

I'd say these people were thinking the same...

Hobbes wrote:

What about those people who have been kidnapped and released later as innocent who also claimed tourture? One such (Canadian national) even had the scars to prove it.

Nox

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

And you are assuming that the Us have no case to answer, why is that?

Very easy for me to ignore this question since I started asking about the Italians first. No one here even acknowledged that the Italians might be wrong and by implication even YOU make the US guilty.

But then I shouldn't expect Euro's to ever do anything wrong. After all, everything is the fault of the USofA.

But then, if you look back I have already stated that I happen to believe that the CIA had indeed coordinated with the Italians. I also questioned the motives of the judge in Milan.

Now YOUR turn ... why is it that the Italians are truthing and the US is lying? If the Italians were indeed monitoring the guy and the US kidnapped him on their surveilance cameras ... why has it taken so long for this to be brought out?

I know, a vast CIA conspiracy.

By the way ... I still haven't seen any reasonable answer as to HOW the judge came up with the names of the 22. If he got them from the Italians who were watching the Arab ... he didn't do a very good job of investigating why they were quiet for so long.

O well.

Nox

Manic Moran

I guess I'll just have to continue doing exactly what I'm doing: Taking my statistical chances.

NTM

A Dub in Glasgo

Nox wrote:

Very easy for me to ignore this question since I started asking about the Italians first. No one here even acknowledged that the Italians might be wrong and by implication even YOU make the US guilty.

They might be wrong. The last time I checked, the Italians were looking for suspects to a crime. How is that the same as the convicted persons of a crime? You would even deny the Italians the chance to try people.

But then I shouldn't expect Euro's to ever do anything wrong. After all, everything is the fault of the USofA.

?

But then, if you look back I have already stated that I happen to believe that the CIA had indeed coordinated with the Italians. I also questioned the motives of the judge in Milan.

Do you agree that a person was kidnapped then? What about torture

Now YOUR turn ... why is it that the Italians are truthing and the US is lying? If the Italians were indeed monitoring the guy and the US kidnapped him on their surveilance cameras ... why has it taken so long for this to be brought out?

No idea, I would rather the legal system decided that than some anonoymous folk on an internet discussion board.

I know, a vast CIA conspiracy.

By the way ... I still haven't seen any reasonable answer as to HOW the judge came up with the names of the 22. If he got them from the Italians who were watching the Arab ... he didn't do a very good job of investigating why they were quiet for so long.

O well.

No idea, I would rather the legal system decided that than some anonoymous folk on an internet discussion board.

Nox

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

They might be wrong. The last time I checked, the Italians were looking for suspects to a crime.

Warrant for arrest = looking for suspects? Please excuse me while I take time out to laugh.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

How is that the same as the convicted persons of a crime?

I don't understand your question here.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You would even deny the Italians the chance to try people.

Not at all. I have asked multiple questions that should have been answered LOOOONG before warrants were issued. I return to questioning the motives of the judge.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Do you agree that a person was kidnapped then?

I sure do think they got him. My question is whether the Italian gov was involved.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

What about torture

Possibly ... but without proof (hearsay from a third party phonecaller is hardly proof) then all you have is words.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

No idea, I would rather the legal system decided that than some anonoymous folk on an internet discussion board.

I had to get up from the floor on this. Indeed, both of us are as you describe, but please explain to me the point. WE will decide nothing. WE are both wasting keystrokes across the pond ... spitting on each others opinions and attitudes. Now please tell me that YOU are not enjoying the intercourse. Because, if you are not, you can go to the bank on the fact that Nox will not waste any more of your time making you respond to me ... nor will Nox waste time on you. I must admit that the group of Euro's I've come across on this board (while typical Euro in attitude) have been far more cogent in expressing themselves. That means that so far ... I am enjoying the intercourse.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

No idea, I would rather the legal system decided that than some anonoymous folk on an internet discussion board.

See above retort from me ... it applies to your duplicate answer.

Nox

The Corinthian

Nox wrote:

Noted. Thank you. I say again ... my memory is different.

Sounds like someone who does not like to concede any point - or that should not be trusted at face value, given his dubious memory. Take your pick.

Now YOUR turn ... why is it that the Italians are truthing and the US is lying

Three reasons, firstly the Italians have no reason to lie if the US is telling the truth. The US, wanting to gain custody of a suspect in a foreign jurisdiction without local permission (i.e. if Italy is telling the truth), do.

Secondly, the US has a history of going after their man in a foreign jurisdiction without local permission (remote controlled planes in Yemen come to mind).

Finally, the US has been behaving in a manner on the international stage that has caused tremendous damage to her credibility to it morally and politically (Abu Ghraib, non-existence of WMD, Calipari, etc.). And as you’ve noted yourself, this is not only an attitude held by Europeans - so you’ll have to concede that there must be a reason for it (if your memory allows).

In fairness however, there may well another side to the story. Certainly, such a kidnapping would be politically embarrassing to Berlusconi’s government and, while he is prone to exaggerate on this point, there are more than a few left-leaning judges in Italy.

However, this is probably not enough to dispel the general suspicion that it is the US that is telling the porkies - Boy who cried wolf, et al.

Nox

The Corinthian wrote:

Sounds like someone who does not like to concede any point - or that should not be trusted at face value, given his dubious memory. Take your pick.

I have fewer than 30 posts. I have admitted to errors, and this can be confirmed. I reject this tripe.

The Corinthian wrote:

Three reasons, firstly the Italians have no reason to lie if the US is telling the truth. The US, wanting to gain custody of a suspect in a foreign jurisdiction without local permission (i.e. if Italy is telling the truth), do.

Hmmm ... Guess I can answer this one with your own words:

In fairness however, there may well another side to the story. Certainly, such a kidnapping would be politically embarrassing to Berlusconi’s government and, while he is prone to exaggerate on this point, there are more than a few left-leaning judges in Italy.

No reason to lie ?????????

The Corinthian wrote:

Secondly, the US has a history of going after their man in a foreign jurisdiction without local permission (remote controlled planes in Yemen come to mind).

This is a true statement ... however, I fail to see how this is a reason why the Italians would not lie. What the Italians are lying about is whether they were complicit in the act.

The Corinthian wrote:

Finally, the US has been behaving in a manner on the international stage that has caused tremendous damage to her credibility to it morally and politically (Abu Ghraib, non-existence of WMD, Calipari, etc.).

Hmmm ... Abu Ghraib. Military members have faced Courts Martial. Seems to me that you Euro's don't seem to get it. WMD's - 24/7 Predator aircraft moniter a portion of the Syrian Desert. Another fact you Euro's forget. Ever wonder why the expenditure of resources? Calipari - If this is the Italian Commie journalist who claims the US tried to assasinate her ... there was a Joint Italian American commission on that. Guess you folks don't care about that either. etc - I would make no difference what I would respond to ... your mind is made up ... I won't confuse you with the facts. But, it appears that your major point is US credibility. None of your points go to credibility. All of your points are Euro-hype generated to demean the US and then you turn right around as an excuse why the US isn't credible.

The Corinthian wrote:

However, this is probably not enough to dispel the general suspicion that it is the US that is telling the porkies - Boy who cried wolf, et al.

I don't get the wolf bit ... but I do agree with your "general suspicion". ABSOLUTELY NOTHING will dispell that. Something tells me you Euro's are even buying Saddam's allegation of torture.

Last item ... there's no reason for you to use an intentionally insulting tone (a la your first paragraph) with me. If my presence or my opinions are offensive to you ... so state. I'll leave.

Nox

The Corinthian

Nox wrote:

I have fewer than 30 posts. I have admitted to errors, and this can be confirmed. I reject this tripe.

You didn’t admit that one though, so you’ll forgive me if I don’t accept your tripe now.

No reason to lie ?????????

Unless we get into tangential conspiracy theories they do not. I proposed one possible reason, but on balance it is a bit of a long shot – I even said this.

This is a true statement ... however, I fail to see how this is a reason why the Italians would not lie. What the Italians are lying about is whether they were complicit in the act.

It’s more an indication of the US lying as it shows that they are not adverse to such actions.

Hmmm ... Abu Ghraib. Military members have faced Courts Martial. Seems to me that you Euro's don't seem to get it.

Nonetheless it happened and has not been the only case of such abuse reported to date. To deny that this has damaged the US’s reputation would be a little delusional. As such it is understandable how many may not consider the US wholly trustworthy.

WMD's - 24/7 Predator aircraft moniter a portion of the Syrian Desert. Another fact you Euro's forget. Ever wonder why the expenditure of resources?

What has this got to do with the Iraqi WMD that turned out never to have existed?

Calipari - If this is the Italian Commie journalist who claims the US tried to assasinate her ... there was a Joint Italian American commission on that. Guess you folks don't care about that either.

And the Italian government - Berlusconi included, so no left-wing conspiracy theory there - rejected the findings of the US and refused to endorse the report. I expect you missed that.

etc - I would make no difference what I would respond to ... your mind is made up ... I won't confuse you with the facts.

What facts? You’ve not presented anything both relevant and accurate in response to me.

I don't get the wolf bit ... but I do agree with your "general suspicion". ABSOLUTELY NOTHING will dispell that.

If you are convinced that the US is in no way at fault then you’re quite right - nothing will.

Last item ... there's no reason for you to use an intentionally insulting tone (a la your first paragraph) with me. If my presence or my opinions are offensive to you ... so state. I'll leave.

No more offensive that your tone, TBH.

Manic Moran

What has this got to do with the Iraqi WMD that turned out never to have existed?

For the sake of being fantastically picky, all the general public knows is that no WMDs or supporting infrastructure have been announced to exist.

And the Italian government - Berlusconi included, so no left-wing conspiracy theory there - rejected the findings of the US and refused to endorse the report.

For the sake of being slightly less fantastically picky, the Italians have just as much reason to 'whitewash' the report as the Americans would to 'whitewash' the investigation. I wouldn't put any particular credence on any one side over the other.

NTM

lazydaisy

Nox - dont you know everything is America's fault?

And if you disagree, well then you're a right wing imperial bast***? The tolerance for differring opinions among liberal Europeans is just so .... je ne sais quoi.

It is facilitated by the US press which does not fight back and the sappy americans who go to Europe apologising for being American and saying how much better it is in Europe. And the Euros love it. To borrow a word from Lacan, there is a jouissance they experience when going off on America.

Dont be fooled, it was around before WMDs and 911 and Iraq, and for a brief moment after 911 the Euros stood with the US, although I will say, this was partly undercut by an editorial which appeared in the Irish Times that same week, perhaps even Sept 12th, which explained to the population of Ireland that this was all a result of American foreign policy in the Middle East, so the sympathy even then was ambiguous.

As for the kidnapping and damaging US credibility, perhaps this is Italy's way of planning ahead to justify or argue for early withdrawal of its troops [TC -I will make no jokes here about Italians and early withdrawal despite being oh so tempted:D ].

Gaillimhtaibhse

lazydaisy wrote:

Nox - dont you know everything is America's fault?

It is facilitated by the US press which does not fight back and the sappy americans who go to Europe apologising for being American

"America's fault...apologising for being American..."

Was in Brasil not long ago. They said they were "Americans" too. That it was once called the "Americas" and for some reason the USA was given or otherwise claimed the label. They are very sensitive about this, should you visit. And they do not care for the military/economic bully of the north.

Hobbes

Manic Moran wrote:

As a company-grade officer in a relatively unimportant unit, with no personal plans which would constitute a threat to any other country, and without a history of war crimes, I don't think I'm in any particular danger.

NTM

There were quite a few in Gitmo who thought exactly the way you do. Some weren't even in an army.

Statistical Chances? o_O Hey does this mean I can run people over, after all it is just statistical that I'm going to hit you or that I am going to get caught.

nox wrote:

Hmmm ... Abu Ghraib. Military members have faced Courts Martial. Seems to me that you Euro's don't seem to get it. WMD's - 24/7 Predator aircraft moniter a portion of the Syrian Desert.

Military faced court martials well after the fact that it went public and it had documented well in advance and nothing was done at that time, not to mention that it was only the lower level people who got the chop. Plus AFAIR the press that don't fight back actually sat on the story at the request of the administration.

I think what Corinthian is referring to with the pred aircraft is that the CIA are now using them for assination (for want of a better term), prior to the Afgan war flying aircraft that carried weapons fell under the juristriction of US Airforce.

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

And if you disagree, well then you're a right wing imperial bast***? The tolerance for differring opinions among liberal Europeans is just so .... je ne sais quoi.

wow Bill O'Reilly I Didn't know you posted here.

As for the kidnapping and damaging US credibility, perhaps this is Italy's way of planning ahead to justify or argue for early withdrawal of its troops [TC -I will make no jokes here about Italians and early withdrawal despite being oh so tempted:D ].

You bother to read up at all on your accusations? For starters the kidnapping happened a long time ago, the Inital judges case too happened some time back. If they were going to use it as an excuse they are taking thier time.

Second Italy have withdrawn 300 troops (roughly 10%) to date, confirmed a budget earlier in the year for the rest to remain until the end of this year at least and have gone on record of saying they would remove troops when the government that takes over is capable of looking after itself.

lazydaisy

I say one thing thats doesnt conform and im pinned for Bill O'Reilly. So predictable. So Euro. yourself.

Hobbes, maybe one day, you will learn the difference between an accusation and a suggestion or exploration of a possibility?

Why would I need to do all that reading when I have you to explain it to me, oh he who knows everything.

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

I say one thing thats doesnt conform and im pinned for Bill O'Reilly. So predictable. So Euro. yourself.

I watch him, he goes on like that. Basically in order to win an argument he goes on with personal attacks or belittling the people posting the questions rather then answering them.

Call me Euro if it makes you feel better. Doesn't change a thing.

Hobbes, maybe one day, you will learn the difference between an accusation and a suggestion or exploration of a possibility?

Why would I need to do all that reading when I have you to explain it to me, oh he who knows everything.

I don't know everything, but if someone makes a claim I tend to go look up if its true or not as up until I actually read the facts your point had merit.

Next time you are wondering if something may happen try reading up on it, that way you can wonder about new things .

billy the squid

And if you disagree, well then you're a right wing imperial bast***? The tolerance for differring opinions among liberal Europeans is just so .... je ne sais quoi.

you have to admit thoguh, it is a very bill o reily thing to say.

The way I see this whole thing. The italians were carrying out an investigation on this Imann, and had him under surveilance.

The CIA came along and whisked him away to Egypt. this happened in 2003. anyway why did it take so long to come out. well for starters, he was in egypt for several months. so that would have delayed any story coming out.

The initial warrant was issued in June of this year. that was six months ago. the warrant issued last week was an EU wide warrant.

Also you have to remember that the Italian government want this whole thing to go away. Link

His justice department have refused to issue an extradition order for one suspect living in the US.

lazydaisy

First of all, there was no personal attack. And second of all there was no strategy for winning an argument. But, if thats your criteria for painting people with the Bill O'Reilly brush, well then, you have a lot of painting to do on this board. Funny how, when people here [and I dont mean you] say personal things to me, or to anyone else for that matter no one else gets pinned as a Bill O'Reilly. I think your comment had very different overtones than what you say to excuse it. But however it doesnt matter that much.

You are a Euro arent you? Dont you live in the EU? At least I didnt say "Well, he is after all a Euro :rolleyes: " like someone else did in this thread but used the word American. Now that would be condescending! Or call your comments stupid or comment on your reasoning functions, like has happened to me in this forum. Those are just two examples, believe me there are more.

I will still stand by that opinion, that Euros will jump down your throat if you say anything at all that disagrees with them about America or Americans. And they can dish it out but they cant take it.

Why is it a Bill O'Reilly thing to say, plenty of people say it who are nothing like Bill O'Reilly, and even so, it doesnt make it anyless accurate. What comment are you trying to make by saying that its O'Reilly like?