Italian judge issues EU arrest warrants for 22 CIA agents [article]

Hobbes · 27-12-2005 11:15am

lazydaisy wrote:

Funny how, when people here [and I dont mean you] say personal things to me, or to anyone else for that matter no one else gets pinned as a Bill O'Reilly.

The bill quip was meant as a joke hence the ->

However comments like "To borrow a word from Lacan, there is a jouissance they experience when going off on America." do nothing to help in debating the issue and attacking with names is a poor mans method of debating.

You are a Euro arent you? Dont you live in the EU?

Which means what exactly? That all Irish people act and think the same way as French, English, Italians? That is what you tried to imply earlier instead of confronting the issue of what was being pointed out.

It would be like calling all Americans Bush lovers (the political kind) when the truth is pretty far from it.

I will still stand by that opinion, that Euros will jump down your throat if you say anything at all that disagrees with them about America or Americans.

Disagree on what exactly? You have yet to post anything on this thread meaningful.

Why is it a Bill O'Reilly thing to say

Watch him. I was going to say you were talking like Ann Coulter but that would of probably got me banned.

:v: :v: :v:

The Corinthian · 27-12-2005 12:43pm

lazydaisy wrote:

As for the kidnapping and damaging US credibility, perhaps this is Italy's way of planning ahead to justify or argue for early withdrawal of its troops

It’s unlikely. Being seen to leave prematurely would be diplomatically and politically a disaster and repeatedly Italy has refused to do so, unlike Spain, and is instead planning a withdrawal akin to Poland’s and South Korea’s.

[TC -I will make no jokes here about Italians and early withdrawal despite being oh so tempted:D ].

Actually you just have. Keeping the American moral high ground, I see.

billy the squid · 27-12-2005 12:53pm

lazydaisy wrote:

Ireland that this was all a result of American foreign policy in the Middle East, so the sympathy even then was ambiguous.

You know what, your absoloutely right, the Arabs have absoloutely no reason to despise the US. The US never ever vetoed any UN resoloutions on human rights abuses of Arabs in Israel. the US never ever supplied weaponry to the Israelis, US citezens are not receiving financial incentives to colonize that part of the world.. are they.

anyways that is off topic.

First of all, there was no personal attack. And second of all there was no strategy for winning an argument. But, if thats your criteria for painting people with the Bill O'Reilly brush, well then, you have a lot of painting to do on this board.

not really, instead of answering the points raised, you went on a big rant about "those disagreeable euros." the same way as instead of answering the points raised by the country of France, bill O Reily chose to ignore them and start his little "boycott france" campaign. trying to offend all people from france because he disagrees with the views of the Government of france. The same way that one or two american posters on this thread are saying "well one can only expect this point of view from those bloody euros." again trying to offend the entire citizenry of the European Union because they disagree with the views of one Judge in Italy.

I wonder has Billy over at fox decided to boycot Italian products yet.

You are a Euro arent you? Dont you live in the EU? At least I didnt say "Well, he is after all a Euro " like someone else did in this thread but used the word American. Now that would be condescending! Or call your comments stupid or comment on your reasoning functions, like has happened to me in this forum. Those are just two examples, believe me there are more.

I will still stand by that opinion, that Euros will jump down your throat if you say anything at all that disagrees with them about America or Americans. And they can dish it out but they cant take it.

that didnt take long. condemning someone for doing what you just done two paragraphs down in your post.

Why is it a Bill O'Reilly thing to say, plenty of people say it who are nothing like Bill O'Reilly, and even so, it doesnt make it anyless accurate. What comment are you trying to make by saying that its O'Reilly like?

answered above.

I was going to say you were talking like Ann Coulter but that would of probably got me banned.

pretty much sums up ann coulter.

Nox · 27-12-2005 3:00pm

lazydaisy wrote:

Nox - dont you know everything is America's fault?

Yes. And whenever I forget ... some Euro reminds me.

lazydaisy wrote:

And if you disagree, well then you're a right wing imperial bast***? The tolerance for differring opinions among liberal Europeans is just so .... je ne sais quoi.

Totally true. And the interesting thing is ... they are in such goose-step, I mean lock-step about it.

lazydaisy wrote:

It is facilitated by the US press which does not fight back and the sappy americans who go to Europe apologising for being American and saying how much better it is in Europe. And the Euros love it. To borrow a word from Lacan, there is a jouissance they experience when going off on America.

But the really hilarious part of it all is how pompous they are about it. They urinate on the US and its race problems ... then ignore their own. Then you have some 'minor incedents' in France and the spin machine starts. God I love it. By the way ... ever notice how quiet the Euro's are about the concentration camps, I mean camps that immigrants have to stay in while being 'processed'. Boy, that sure is a way to say WELCOME, we're glad you're here.

lazydaisy wrote:

Dont be fooled, it was around before WMDs and 911 and Iraq, and for a brief moment after 911 the Euros stood with the US, although I will say, this was partly undercut by an editorial which appeared in the Irish Times that same week, perhaps even Sept 12th, which explained to the population of Ireland that this was all a result of American foreign policy in the Middle East, so the sympathy even then was ambiguous.

Yep, they sure were. How quickly the Euro's forget how rapidly they charged into Bosnia. Yes, Bosnia. Bosnia ... like in their own back yard ... to stop the slaughter. O yes, the good 'ol USofA had to bail them out of that. I'm so proud of the Euro response that I could just ... well ... GAG. One day ... long after I'm dead, some one will wake up to a newspaper headline that says Thank You. Kinda like during Viet Nam when the US said the NVA was in Cambodia and the Euro's were screaming that we were liars (remember Kent State?). Decades later, the North Viet Namese laughed when they reported that they really were in Cambodia when they said they weren't. I do recall reading a Euro article where they reported what the North Viet Namese said (sans the laughter), but no where was there an Oooops we were wrong.

lazydaisy wrote:

As for the kidnapping and damaging US credibility, perhaps this is Italy's way of planning ahead to justify or argue for early withdrawal of its troops [TC -I will make no jokes here about Italians and early withdrawal despite being oh so tempted:D ].

Probably true. But there is the very real possibility that this is just a ruse to get the Italian Bank news off the front page.

Nox

Nox · 27-12-2005 3:14pm

lazydaisy wrote:

First of all, there was no personal attack.

You don't understand. A Euro said it was a personal attack. How can you even begin to think that it wasn't

lazydaisy wrote:

And second of all there was no strategy for winning an argument.

Wrong. A Euro said so.

lazydaisy wrote:

But, if thats your criteria for painting people with the Bill O'Reilly brush, well then, you have a lot of painting to do on this board. Funny how, when people here [and I dont mean you] say personal things to me, or to anyone else for that matter no one else gets pinned as a Bill O'Reilly. I think your comment had very different overtones than what you say to excuse it. But however it doesnt matter that much.

This is Euro-tripe. The Euro's have learned a few phrases and whenever they are wont for logic, they throw in their phrase vocabulary. Other examples are: redneck and Fox News.

O well.

lazydaisy wrote:

You are a Euro arent you? Dont you live in the EU? At least I didnt say "Well, he is after all a Euro :rolleyes: " like someone else did in this thread but used the word American. Now that would be condescending! Or call your comments stupid or comment on your reasoning functions, like has happened to me in this forum. Those are just two examples, believe me there are more.

And this is the heart of the issue. I have learned (very quickly I might add) that these Euros don't understand civility. Not only that ... it is not returned when given first. Also, in addition to the USofA ALWAYS being wrong ... the EURO's are ALWAYS right. There is always some lame rationale for everything.

lazydaisy wrote:

I will still stand by that opinion, that Euros will jump down your throat if you say anything at all that disagrees with them about America or Americans. And they can dish it out but they cant take it.

Amen. By the way ... AMEN. Did I happen to mention A M E N?

lazydaisy wrote:

Why is it a Bill O'Reilly thing to say, plenty of people say it who are nothing like Bill O'Reilly, and even so, it doesnt make it anyless accurate. What comment are you trying to make by saying that its O'Reilly like?

Probably because their brains are in the Max-Overload function, and it's the only thing they can think of.

Nox

Nox · 27-12-2005 3:32pm

billy the squid wrote:

You know what, your absoloutely right, the Arabs have absoloutely no reason to despise the US. The US never ever vetoed any UN resoloutions on human rights abuses of Arabs in Israel. the US never ever supplied weaponry to the Israelis, US citezens are not receiving financial incentives to colonize that part of the world.. are they.

anyways that is off topic.

Interesting point.

And the list of UN Resolutions critical of the Arabs has how many entry's?

billy the squid wrote:

not really, instead of answering the points raised, you went on a big rant about "those disagreeable euros."

It's a matter of perspective. You didn't want to see the answers.

billy the squid wrote:

the same way as instead of answering the points raised by the country of France, bill O Reily chose to ignore them and start his little "boycott france" campaign. trying to offend all people from france because he disagrees with the views of the Government of france.

This is proof that you don't watch Bill. It also proves the fact that you Euro's just throw out a bunch of phrases from your anti-American playbook.

billy the squid wrote:

The same way that one or two american posters on this thread are saying "well one can only expect this point of view from those bloody euros." again trying to offend the entire citizenry of the European Union because they disagree with the views of one Judge in Italy.

Since I am probably one of those "one or two 'american' (vice American) posters" ... I suggest you review my posts. I don't use the word 'bloody'. And as far as lumping the "entire citizenry of the European Union" together ... here's an opportunity for you to point out to me the Euro criticizm of the Italian judge. Guess I should remind you Euro's of the price you paid for silence a few decades ago. But then I'm sure there'll be a lame excuse for this as well.

billy the squid wrote:

I wonder has Billy over at fox decided to boycot Italian products yet.

Here's a thought ... you could prove that Nox is wrong about you not watching Bill by watching "Billy over at fox" and find out for yourself.

billy the squid wrote:

that didnt take long.
condemning someone for doing what you just done two paragraphs down in your post.

You really don't like starting sentences with a capital letter do you?

Nox

27-12-2005 3:45pm

Nox wrote:

You really don't like starting sentences with a capital letter do you?

Nox

Read the charter please and abide by the rules of civil debate here otherwise bannage will ensue.
That goes for everybody here,I've just picked out your example because it was handy.

Warning given , there will be no more.

billy the squid · 27-12-2005 3:51pm

Nox wrote:

Interesting point.

And the list of UN Resolutions critical of the Arabs has how many entry's?

of which there are many.

It's a matter of perspective. You didn't want to see the answers.

The answers to points would have been preferable to what I would consider borderline rasism posted in the two posts above this one. this thread is not how much you despise what you call those "euros," it is about a judges decision in italy.

This is proof that you don't watch Bill. It also proves the fact that you Euro's just throw out a bunch of phrases from your anti-American playbook.

On the contrary, I do watch bill. his show does be on around the time I finnish work late at night. everything I have stated about him is accurate. His boycott of french products campaign is ongoing still. He has also refused to enter debate with his critics despite repeated invitations, choosing rather to insult them. example

Christ, for someone that claims to be of Irish origins, he sure doesnt know his Irish history.

Bill O'Reily wrote:

My people came from County Cavan in Ireland. All right? And the British Crown marched in there with their henchman, Oliver Cromwell, and they seized all of my ancestors' lands, everything. And they threw them into slavery, pretty much indentured servitude on the land. And then the land collapsed, all right? And everybody was starving in Ireland. They had to leave the country, just as Africans had to leave -- African-Americans had to leave Africa and come over on a boat and try to make in the New World with nothing. Nothing. And succeeded, succeeded. As did Italians, as did -- and I'll submit to you, African-Americans are succeeding as well. So all of these things can be overcome I think, [caller]. Go ahead.

Since I am probably one of those "one or two 'american' (vice American) posters" ... I suggest you review my posts. I don't use the word 'bloody'. And as far as lumping the "entire citizenry of the European Union" together ... here's an opportunity for you to point out to me the Euro criticizm of the Italian judge.

I doubt you will find anyone who would be critical of a judge seeking warrants for the arest of foreign nationals who came into his country and kidnapped one of its citezens. Would such a thing be allowed on US soil? I doubt it.

Guess I should remind you Euro's of the price you paid for silence a few decades ago. But then I'm sure there'll be a lame excuse for this as well.

And the US is paying for its silence over israeli human rights abuses in the form of its troops being picked off one by one in Iraq. also it paid in the form of 9-11. Al-Queda didnt come about because someone in the us sold out-of-date scout cookies to an arab you know.

Here's a thought ... you could prove that Nox is wrong about you not watching Bill by watching "Billy over at fox" and find out for yourself.

already addressed above

You really don't like starting sentences with a capital letter do you?

Nox

I suppose i could blame the americans for that too seeing as they invented the internet

dahamsta · 27-12-2005 4:04pm

Begorrah, these yanks have a fierce problem with our currency, don't they?

billy the squid · 27-12-2005 4:07pm

indeed

people buying and selling oil in euro would be bad for the dollar i suppose.

Lemming · 27-12-2005 4:23pm

All this use of the word "euros" by several of our american posters reminds me of a quote by Bill Hicks on the use of the word "liberal" by right-wing America.

Bill Hicks wrote:

Only republicans could make human rights a partisan issue; "These liberals think people should eat!! These liberalsthink people should have ... " etc.

The use of such words is the most base of arguing points and quite despicable. It says more about your own character than it does about the person you are attempting to sling mud at. And that is all you are doing, slinging mud because you're too unintelligible to form your own opinions and argue them on merit.

So for those who are trying to sling mud (be it American or Irish, British, Itialian, etc), less of the name-calling and more of the intelligible debate if you stand so convinced of your own viewpoints.

Zombrex · 27-12-2005 5:49pm

lazydaisy wrote:

Nox - dont you know everything is America's fault?

It is a classic (and unfortunately very successful) Republican tactic (used by everyone from Bush to O'Reily) to deflect from serious issues by saying that the people pointing out that something is wrong are just doing it to attack "America" .. so when the French government say "Hold on, I think it is rather stupid to start a war with Iraq right now when other options are still clearly available", the Bush government, through supportive media outlets such as Fox News and New York Post, drums a quite successful campaign about how the French liberals (an insulting term in the US seemingly) "hate" America simply because the French government doesn't agree with a particular campaign of the Bush administration that in hind sight turned out to be one of the stupidest campaigns in recent political and military history (the campaign being the Iraq war). And when "liberals" such as actors in Hollywood, documentary makes such as Michael Moore, or professors in the Universities try to drum up debate about the current government, they also are American bashing because they hate america to (there is actually a documentary called "Why Michael Moore Hates America", which is on par with saying "Why George Washington Hates America" ... Moore has is faults, but not liking the US is not one of them, and is the exact opposite of how he clearly feels about his country that he believes is being destroyed by big business and politics)

And now you are, rather less successfully, trying to deflect from the rather serious issue that the CIA is kidnapping people in EU countries and shipping them off to prisions that have a history of torture by saying that the people pointing out that this is happening are doing so simply to be American bashing.

To be honest this arrogence, that people could only possibly critise the American government and military because they hate America in general is part of the reason so many people distrust the current American government, its tactics and Americans who are supporters of this government.

Stick on the issues please ...

BuffyBot · 27-12-2005 6:22pm

It also proves the fact that you Euro's just throw out a bunch of phrases from your anti-American playbook.

Bit of pot calling kettle black, no?

The Corinthian · 27-12-2005 6:41pm

Nox wrote:

Probably true. But there is the very real possibility that this is just a ruse to get the Italian Bank news off the front page.

Highly improbable. Creating multiple problems is not going to help Berlusconi, if anything it may help the opposition in that it demonstrates that he’s made a mess of more than one part of government. So your theory is highly unlikely given the political realities in Italy.

Of course that returns us to the left-wing conspiracy theory. Undoubtedly the left in Italy has stoked it along, but the Italian secret services are anything but left wing (these are the same secret services that spent decades helping to keep the Italian communists out of power) - as such it’s unlikely that the information originated from left-wing sources.

If you disagree, feel free to state factually based reasons why. Given you’ve ignored my last rebuttal, I doubt you will.

I can understand the resentment which many Americans feel for the apparent demonization of their country, or perhaps current government more correctly, but I really do fail to understand the almost religious denial that some also hold that they are in any way at fault.

The World, and not just Europeans, has grown far more sceptical and untrusting of America. There’s a reason for this. Please deal with it.

lazydaisy · 27-12-2005 8:23pm

Wk - it is not solely a republican tactic, it is a widespread acknowledgement. It was around even in the Clinton era. Arrogance..only criticising the US gov't because they hate America.... That is a reductive reading of what I said. The French govt and media has always hated the US, pre Bush, but I guess you didnt read my post when I said that this Euro disdain was pre-Iraq and pre-911. If you read the French papers, you will see that it goes way beyond the current issues. And Im not the only one who is perpetuating this sub topic, so if you want to people to stay on topic than you should lead by example.

BTS:
The same way that one or two american posters on this thread are saying "well one can only expect this point of view from those bloody euros." again trying to offend the entire citizenry of the European Union because they disagree with the views of one Judge in Italy.

First of all no one is trying to offend the entire citizenry of Europe because of the actions of one Judge in Italy. I am, and I cant and wont speak for other posters, pointing out a double standard. But you dont want to see it, thats up to you. I would really appreciate it if you stopped misrepresenting what I say.

Christ, for someone that claims to be of Irish origins, he sure doesnt know his Irish history.

So? What has Bill O'Reilly knowing Irish history got to do with anything? And what was factually wrong in that entirely unrelated excerpt you posted?

that didnt take long. condemning someone for doing what you just done two paragraphs down in your post.

Nonsense.

Hobbes-

I was responding to your "Call me a Euro if you like" and after you claimed that my statement was a personal attack. Why would saying I sound like Ann Coulter get you banned?

But since everything I post is meaningless, what's the point...

Nox · 27-12-2005 8:58pm

billy the squid wrote:

of which there are many.

Hmmm ... help me out here ... Name some. By the way, you are now guilty of the same thing you accused lazydaisy of not doing.

billy the squid wrote:

The answers to points would have been preferable to what I would consider borderline rasism posted in the two posts above this one. this thread is not how much you despise what you call those "euros," it is about a judges decision in italy.

"despise" is your word ... Not mine. Kinda like "bloody" was your word ... not mine. I suggest you refrain from putting your words in my mouth. It will help keep things civil. You know civil ... the example used was from the Yank. Yes, it was directed at everybody ... but the Euro's were insulated.

billy the squid wrote:

On the contrary, I do watch bill. his show does be on around the time I finnish work late at night. everything I have stated about him is accurate. His boycott of french products campaign is ongoing still. He has also refused to enter debate with his critics despite repeated invitations, choosing rather to insult them.

Hmmm ... the O Reilly segments I watch talk about the French people not being the problem but the government. The boycott is to get the governments attention. And I still doubt that you watch. Having the set tuned to the channel and possibly turned on hardly constitutes watching. If you had watched ... you would not be confused about France. And since you 'watch' why did you ask about Italy? That subject was addressed one night on the mail. By the way ... I have a boycott France bumper sticker ... it's right here on my desk.

billy the squid wrote:

Christ

Invoking the Diety are we? My, my ... this sure makes the discussion civil.

billy the squid wrote:

I doubt you will find anyone who would be critical of a judge seeking warrants for the arest of foreign nationals who came into his country and kidnapped one of its citezens. Would such a thing be allowed on US soil? I doubt it.

This is called obfuscation.

The point made was that the judge was seeking information. Now YOU have changed the point to probable cause/guilt. And just for my information ... was that guy an Italian citizen?

-edit- I'll save you some time billy ... the guy 'kidnapped' was an Egyptian cleric. And I seem to recall that he was shipped to Egypt. Hmmm ... billy, this tripe goes beyond obfuscation. You are firmly in the world of ERROR OF FACT. -end edit-

billy the squid wrote:

Would such a thing be allowed on US soil? I doubt it.

Lap two. Only if you believe that Italian government isn't lying about its involvement.

billy the squid wrote:

And the US is paying for its silence over israeli human rights abuses in the form of its troops being picked off one by one in Iraq. also it paid in the form of 9-11. Al-Queda didnt come about because someone in the us sold out-of-date scout cookies to an arab you know.

Billy, this is the earth calling ...

US soldiers are being killed in Iraq because of "US silence over israeli human rights abuses" .... Bwahahahahahahahaha.

out-of-date scout cookies is what you should have with your next batch of Kool-aid.

billy the squid wrote:

I suppose i could blame the americans for that too seeing as they invented the internet

Al Gore did that. Al Gore ... the one who thought that E Pluribus Unum meant out of one - many. And if you Euro's would have had YOUR way, that's who would have been POTUS on 9-11.

Nox

Nox · 27-12-2005 9:03pm

The Corinthian wrote:

Given you’ve ignored my last rebuttal, I doubt you will.

Correct. I have wasted enough keystrokes on you and your attempts to get me banned.

Do yourself a favor ... don't respond to me. Take your moderator pompousness and use it elsewhere.

Nox

Manic Moran · 27-12-2005 9:40pm

billy the squid wrote:

of which there are many.

I couldn't think of many, so I thought I'd go looking around for the numbers.

After squandering a half-hour or so on the UN's official website (I never realised the security council made so many pointless pronouncements) I decided I'd never have an answer today by doing that.

There certainly are a lot of resolutions pertaining to Arab states, although frequently they are inter-arab, or deals such as Libya and Iraq, and nothing to do with Israel at all. The only 'anti-Arab country' resolution in the Israeli area of interest from 2005 was the one where they gave Syria a slap on the wrist over the Lebanon assasination deal. Israel didn't get any black marks at all. Must have been a quiet year.

So, figuring that I needed a new way of figuring things out was by doing a bit of googling around on the Israeli-problem related websites. I noticed an interesting phenomenon: Those which are pro-palestinian/anti Israeli mention all the resolutions against Israel, claiming that "Israel is an evil country which ignores the UN." The pro-Israeli websites point to the same number of resolutions saying "Look at how Israel is being victimised by the UN"

From the Jewish World Review site (Not exactly unbiased, but I'm assuming that the figures are accurate):

Number of U.N. Security Council resolutions on the Middle East between 1948 and 1991: 175

Number of these resolutions against Israel: 97

Number of these resolutions against an Arab state: 4

From science.co.il, an article dated 2002 has these figures:

"The General Assembly "condemned", "vigorously condemned", "strongly condemned", "deplored", "strongly deplored", "censured", "denounced" Israel 321 times -- the Arabs Zero condemnations."

A little off-topic, to be sure, but I was curious.

NTM

The Corinthian · 28-12-2005 4:37am

Nox wrote:

Correct. I have wasted enough keystrokes on you and your attempts to get me banned.

I can’t get you banned - stop making excuses.

Do yourself a favor ... don't respond to me. Take your moderator pompousness and use it elsewhere.

No, I think that’s far too easy a response from someone who all too easily is willing to see his or her arguments cut down without defence.

billy the squid · 28-12-2005 4:48am

lazydaizy wrote:

I am, and I cant and wont speak for other posters, pointing out a double standard. But you dont want to see it, thats up to you. I would really appreciate it if you stopped misrepresenting what I say.

You came on this thread attacking people, not because they were liberals, but because they were "euros" you yourself have used the word "euro" to describe people who disagree with your viewpoint. where am I misrepresenting you?

So? What has Bill O'Reilly knowing Irish history got to do with anything? And what was factually wrong in that entirely unrelated excerpt you posted?

it proves that the man is nothing more than an unwashed bull****ter. If he can't be arsed to do his research on the past when using it as material for his radio show, then why in gods name should he be expected to do his research on current events.

Nonsense

look I will even make it a fancy colour for you, where you attempted to offend us europeans, right in the same post where you claimed that you were not trying to offend. Its a bit like an Irish phrase we have here "I am not a racist but..."

I will still stand by that opinion, that Euros will jump down your throat if you say anything at all that disagrees with them about America or Americans. And they can dish it out but they cant take it.

of course while euros criticising American foreign policy is considered an attack on the people of America, by the rightwing in America, it is OK for people on the right in the US to make the same generalisations about europeans. Bill O'Reily is one of the best examples of this right wing lunacy. that bimbo ann coulter is another.

Nox wrote:

Hmmm ... help me out here ... Name some. By the way, you are now guilty of the same thing you accused lazydaisy of not doing.

you want resoloutions condemning arab countries heres a couple

resoloution 660.(Iraq)
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/575/10/IMG/NR057510.pdf?OpenElement

Resoloution 1267 (Afghanistan)
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/300/44/PDF/N9930044.pdf?OpenElement

Resoloution 384 (Indonesia)
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/782/32/IMG/NR078232.pdf?OpenElement

so you see, despite the bull**** FOX has been feeding you, there have indeed been resoloutions which were not in favour of Arabic nations. I found three but if you want to look yourself, theres help your self.
http://www.un.org/documents/scres.htm

"despise" is your word ... Not mine. Kinda like "bloody" was your word ... not mine. I suggest you refrain from putting your words in my mouth. It will help keep things civil. You know civil ... the example used was from the Yank. Yes, it was directed at everybody ... but the Euro's were insulated.

then address the points being raised rather than the ethnicity of the posters.

Hmmm ... the O Reilly segments I watch talk about the French people not being the problem but the government. The boycott is to get the governments attention. And I still doubt that you watch. Having the set tuned to the channel and possibly turned on hardly constitutes watching. If you had watched ... you would not be confused about France.

I am well aware of how bill O'Reily feels about the french people. you might need quicktime for the clips below

http://mediamatters.org/items/200511100002
http://mediamatters.org/items/200411230005
http://mediamatters.org/items/200411230005

And since you 'watch' why did you ask about Italy? That subject was addressed one night on the mail. By the way ... I have a boycott France bumper sticker ... it's right here on my desk.

I would not be as religius a viewer as your self, i do not watch every single show. given that it is on at an ungodly hour of the night here. most episodes i would watch as he can be good for a giggle at his stupidity.

re: car sticker. bully for you.

Lap two. Only if you believe that Italian government isn't lying about its involvement.

answer the question, would such a thing be allowed in the US?

US soldiers are being killed in Iraq because of "US silence over israeli human rights abuses" .... Bwahahahahahahahaha.

when you get down to it yeah. why else does the US meddle in middle eastern affairs, and veto as many UN resoloutions condemning human rights abuses by the israelis. It is the very reason arabs have a disliking for the US.

out-of-date scout cookies is what you should have with your next batch of Kool-aid.

kool-aid is urine in a can.

lazydaisy · 28-12-2005 5:43am

billy the squid wrote:

You came on this thread attacking people, not because they were liberals, but because they were "euros" you yourself have used the word "euro" to describe people who disagree with your viewpoint. where am I misrepresenting you?.

There.

billy the squid wrote:

it proves that the man is nothing more than an unwashed bull****ter. If he can't be arsed to do his research on the past when using it as material for his radio show, then why in gods name should he be expected to do his research on current events.

How? You didnt say where and how he was wrong. It proves nothing.

billy the squid wrote:

look I will even make it a fancy colour for you, where you attempted to offend us europeans, right in the same post where you claimed that you were not trying to offend. Its a bit like an Irish phrase we have here "I am not a racist but...".

If you say so.... :rolleyes: ooh touchy touchy. Thanks though, it just proves my point. Its nothing like the phrase you quote.

billy the squid wrote:

of course while euros criticising American foreign policy is considered an attack on the people of America, by the rightwing in America, it is OK for people on the right in the US to make the same generalisations about europeans. Bill O'Reily is one of the best examples of this right wing lunacy. that bimbo ann coulter is another..

Wrong.

billy the squid wrote:

then address the points being raised rather than the ethnicity of the posters. .

Doctor, heal thyself.

billy the squid wrote:

I am well aware of how bill O'Reily feels about the french people. you might need quicktime for the clips below

http://mediamatters.org/items/200511100002
http://mediamatters.org/items/200411230005
http://mediamatters.org/items/200411230005.

If your going to do that, take a few examples from one of the thousands of broadcasters in the US, then be fair and balance it out with some excerpts from the Euro media, eg Le Monde and Ill Corriere or Le Figaro about how racist and uneducated Americans are.

billy the squid wrote:

I would not be as religius a viewer as your self, i do not watch every single show. given that it is on at an ungodly hour of the night here. most episodes i would watch as he can be good for a giggle at his stupidity.

when you get down to it yeah. why else does the US meddle in middle eastern affairs, and veto as many UN resoloutions condemning human rights abuses by the israelis. It is the very reason arabs have a disliking for the US..

So you admit that arabs dont like the US? Have you taken a survey?

Would it have anything do with the UN being full of Arabs in a city that has the second largest jewish settlement in the world, next to Isreal.

billy the squid wrote:

kool-aid is urine in a can.

It doesnt come in a can.

Moriarty · 28-12-2005 6:10am

Looking back, I guess it was a bit much to expect anything more than people calling each other names across the pond by the time it reached the third page. Talk about successful off-topic destruction of a thread

Oh well.

billy the squid · 28-12-2005 6:16am

lazydaisy wrote:

There.

you deny that you have come on here making generalisations about europeans. read the fancy red text in my last post.

How? You didnt say where and how he was wrong. It proves nothing.

indeed i did in a previous post, I quote what Bill O'Reily said on his radio show

here it is again for those who just skimmed through the post

My people came from County Cavan in Ireland. All right? And the British Crown marched in there with their henchman, Oliver Cromwell, and they seized all of my ancestors' lands, everything. And they threw them into slavery, pretty much indentured servitude on the land. And then the land collapsed, all right? And everybody was starving in Ireland. They had to leave the country, just as Africans had to leave -- African-Americans had to leave Africa and come over on a boat and try to make in the New World with nothing. Nothing. And succeeded, succeeded. As did Italians, as did -- and I'll submit to you, African-Americans are succeeding as well. So all of these things can be overcome I think, [caller]. Go ahead.

I have also put in bold a second inaccuracy of O'Reily's about how african americans ended up in the US.

If you say so.... :rolleyes: ooh touchy touchy. Thanks though, it just proves my point. Its nothing like the phrase you quote.

I copied and pasted that quote without editing it.

Wrong

prove it.

Doctor, heal thyself.

Whilst I have poked fun at the right wing in America, I have yet to see where I have posted a supposedly derogetory comment about all Americans.

If your going to do that, take a few examples from one of the thousands of broadcasters in the US, then be fair and balance it out with some excerpts from the Euro media, eg Le Monde and Ill Corriere or Le Figaro about how racist and uneducated Americans are.

We were not talking about La Monde though were we, we were talking about Bill O'Reily. If you want to discuss Le Monde then feel free to start a thread in the News/Media forum.

So you admit that arabs dont like the US? Have you taken a survey?

did you? I dont think your supposed to burn the US flag whilst singing "God Bless America" I could be wrong though.

Would it have anything do with the UN being full of Arabs in a city that has the second largest jewish settlement in the world, next to Isreal.

another falsehood. Unless the majority of the countries of the world are arabic, which I doubt, the UN is not "full of Arabs"

The population of New York does not influence which countries are more or less represented in the General Assembly. Each country sends its delegates from their own country, they do not pick them off the streets of Manhattan.

Each country in the UN has one vote regardless of size.

Arabic representation on the Security council, the best they can hope for is a two year stint on the council, and they do not have a veto. only the permanent members have it.

here is a list
http://www.un.org/Docs/sc/unsc_members.html

the countries listed in red are the permenent members.

Again I will reiterate, the make up of the population of New York does not influence the make up of either the UN general assembly nor does it influence the make up of the Security council.

Zombrex · 28-12-2005 1:07pm

lazydaisy wrote:

Arrogance..only criticising the US gov't because they hate America....

"America" does not equal American Government and American Military. Criticising the american government (internally or internationally) does not mean you hate America, despite what the Republicans say.

Please define "hate America" ... because in my experience the people who critise the American government and the American military are the same people who own the entire collection of Simpsons on DVD, listen to Bruce Springsteen, Nirvana, Eminem etc, the same people who spend long weekends in Las Vegas losing all their Christmas bonus, the same people who queue up to watch American movies such as "Crash", or "Serenity" or "King Kong", the same people who dream of going out with a Playboy California girl, or dating Brad Pitt.

Instead of the ridiculous general statement "they hate America" (a statement that cannot even be defined ... what exactly do they hate? American culture? Whats that? American music? Whats that? The American people? Whats that? Irish, Italians, WASPs?), it might be a good idea to actually look at the objections people have (internationally and inside America itself) with certain aspects of American political and foriegn policy during the last 50 years, and the rise of religious and political right wing conservatism in American in recent years.

I doubt you even know what you mean yourself when you say they "hate" America.

The issues with American foreign policy in the rest of the world did not start with Bush. Saying the French hated American before Bush is assuming the American military and intelligence serves never did anything wrong to justify other countries being displeased before Bush, which is nonsense.

The American government and intelligence services, along with the might of the American miliary have been protecting and promoting American political and business interests around the world since 1945, often at large cost to local and international stability. From the cold war spread of communism, to the middle east oil interests, to support of Israel, to rejection of agreements like the international court of human rights and Koyto. Surprisingly a lot of people have taken objection to this.

The issue here in this thread is that the CIA is kidnapping people in foreign countries and transporting them to countries that practice torture. If the CIA had never done anything bad ever before that would be enough to be outraged at the arrogence of the American intelligence services. I would like to see what happened if a Italian spy commited a serious crime in the US. Also don't forget this is coming only months after an Italian spy was shot to death in Iraq by US soldiers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,12576,1460295,00.html

monument · 28-12-2005 4:02pm

Manic Moran wrote:

I guess I'll just have to continue doing exactly what I'm doing: Taking my statistical chances.

But you'd be fine about the idea of agents of another state going into the US (with or without your governments knowledge) and picking someone up and bypassing local laws?

lazydaisy wrote:

Nox - dont you know everything is America's fault?

And if you disagree, well then you're a right wing imperial bast***? The tolerance for differring opinions among liberal Europeans is just so .... je ne sais quoi.

It is facilitated by the US press which does not fight back and the sappy americans who go to Europe apologising for being American and saying how much better it is in Europe. And the Euros love it. To borrow a word from Lacan, there is a jouissance they experience when going off on America.

Forget about the actually issue. What not? Just drop in some distracting rhetoric.

And it kind of worked, you’ve dragged this into little more then name calling, or an argument about who usually calls who what.

While Hobbs might have a point saying you sound like Bill O'Reily, all he is doing is bringing himself down to your level of debate.

Oh, we might as well continue down this path…

lazydaisy wrote:

Dont be fooled, it was around before WMDs and 911 and Iraq, and for a brief moment after 911 the Euros stood with the US, although I will say, this was partly undercut by an editorial which appeared in the Irish Times that same week, perhaps even Sept 12th, which explained to the population of Ireland that this was all a result of American foreign policy in the Middle East, so the sympathy even then was ambiguous.

Don’t be silly. A group of people from the Middle East attacked the US because of the US’s foreign policy on Mars. Of course, it had nothing to do with “American” foreign policy in the Middle East.

Am I “anti-American”, about as much as Jon Stewart. So, no (wait, maybe you think Mr Stewart is “anti-American”). I have far more direct or indirect interest (family etc) in the US, as well as more in common, then say anywhere outside the Ireland and UK. Not to forget, even with it’s faults (everywhere has faults), I just like the country.

Manic Moran · 28-12-2005 4:48pm

But you'd be fine about the idea of agents of another state going into the US (with or without your governments knowledge) and picking someone up and bypassing local laws?

I wouldn't go as far as to say that I like the concept, but I don't have a sufficiently idealistic world view to say that such practises do not have their place if required. Kindof like the villain in Serenity. "There is no place for people like me in ideal society, yet in order to achieve that society in the first place, people like me must exist"

NTM

monument · 28-12-2005 5:27pm

Manic Moran wrote:

But you'd be fine about the idea of agents of another state going into the US (with or without your governments knowledge) and picking someone up and bypassing local laws?

I wouldn't go as far as to say that I like the concept, but I don't have a sufficiently idealistic world view to say that such practises do not have their place if required. Kindof like the villain in Serenity. "There is no place for people like me in ideal society, yet in order to achieve that society in the first place, people like me must exist"

NTM

You think there’s a place for such things, even a small place for such things as breaking the laws of the United States, brushing a side the sovereignty of the United States, and more so breaking the founding ideas United States... couldn’t that be seen as anti-American?

I for one disagree with you and say there’s no place for such things. And such things should be seen as an attack on the United States. And in the current world climate I find it sicking that someone in the US could think that such attacks on the US’s sovereignty could even possibly for any reason “must exist".

lazydaisy · 28-12-2005 5:36pm

Wicknight wrote:

"America" does not equal American Government and American Military. Criticising the american government (internally or internationally) does not mean you hate America, despite what the Republicans say. ]

Oh no kidding.

Wicknight wrote:

Please define "hate America" ... because in my experience the people who critise the American government and the American military are the same people who own the entire collection of Simpsons on DVD, listen to Bruce Springsteen, Nirvana, Eminem etc, the same people who spend long weekends in Las Vegas losing all their Christmas bonus, the same people who queue up to watch American movies such as "Crash", or "Serenity" or "King Kong", the same people who dream of going out with a Playboy California girl, or dating Brad Pitt.

Instead of the ridiculous general statement "they hate America" (a statement that cannot even be defined ... what exactly do they hate? American culture? Whats that? American music? Whats that? The American people? Whats that? Irish, Italians, WASPs?), it might be a good idea to actually look at the objections people have (internationally and inside America itself) with certain aspects of American political and foriegn policy during the last 50 years, and the rise of religious and political right wing conservatism in American in recent years.

I doubt you even know what you mean yourself when you say they "hate" America.

url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,12576,1460295,00.html[/url]

WK- I didnt say that, you said I said that. I said that it is more than criticising the US government, which is what you are claiming the sentiments come from.

lazydaisy · 28-12-2005 5:45pm

monument wrote:

Forget about the actually issue. What not? Just drop in some distracting rhetoric.

And it kind of worked, you’ve dragged this into little more then name calling, or an argument about who usually calls who what.
.

Maybe it isnt the actual issue. There are latent issues here. I didnt drag it down to name calling. At all. Someone else did. Please re-read the thread.

monument wrote:

While Hobbs might have a point saying you sound like Bill O'Reily, all he is doing is bringing himself down to your level of debate..

And what are you doing to elevate it? I will reiterate I do not sound like Bill O'Reilly, and Hobbes also explained that he was joking.

monument wrote:

Oh, we might as well continue down this path…
.

Oh but when it suits you it's ok.

monument wrote:

Don’t be silly. A group of people from the Middle East attacked the US because of the US’s foreign policy on Mars. Of course, it had nothing to do with “American” foreign policy in the Middle East..

Well, why did they attack Bali?

monument wrote:

Am I “anti-American”, about as much as Jon Stewart. So, no (wait, maybe you think Mr Stewart is “anti-American”). I have far more direct or indirect interest (family etc) in the US, as well as more in common, then say anywhere outside the Ireland and UK. Not to forget, even with it’s faults (everywhere has faults), I just like the country.

I don't watch Jon Stewart. Anti-american is your term. I didnt say anything about Anti-Americanism nor did I say anything about you.

Zombrex · 28-12-2005 5:48pm

lazydaisy wrote:

I said that it is more than criticising the US government, which is what you are claiming the sentiments come from.

What is more ???

You seem to be saying that opposition to the US governments foreign policy, opposition to the rise of neo-conservatisim and opposition to American big business moving into globalistion, in places like France, UK Italy, Asia and the Middle East is not in fact opposition to the US governments foreign policies, the rise of neo-conservatism and opposition to American big business at all, but is in fact just a general hatred of all things America (a concept that you have not even defined)??

I think i explained quite well in my last post that that is nonsense.

As I said before, I doubt you even know what you actually mean by "America" when you say they hate America

Italian judge issues EU arrest warrants for 22 CIA agents [article]

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