Italian judge issues EU arrest warrants for 22 CIA agents [article]

monument

Manic Moran wrote:

Not advocating. Merely not condemning on moral principle. At least, the first two. Subtle difference.

On “moral principle”, you would ‘not condemn’ serious breaches of the laws of the United States and would ‘not condemn’ the brushing a side the sovereignty of the United States.

You would not ‘advocate’ such is ok, you’d just ‘not condemn’ such. Right.

Manic Moran wrote:

I'm not sure I get the founding ideas reference.

Really?

- ignoring the "judicial power"
- breaking laws laid out by the "legislative power"

And random stuff like "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

All stuff admited that you would ‘not condemn’ - "At least, the first two".

Manic Moran

Which is why spoiler:

How did you do that? (Get font and background the same colour?)

That's right up there with an arms dealer arguing that "guns don't kill people - people kill people"

I'm not an arms dealer, but I do believe that the argument has merit. I prefer the older "Do you blame the sword, or the hand that wields it?" line myself, has a bit more class to it, I think.

To turn it on its head, you would agree with the CIA tourturing POW to determine something to protect "own people".

That's a very difficult question. It would have to be something incredibly egregious, such as the stereotypical 'There's a nuke in New York, and it's going to blow up in ten minutes unless you find it' deal, or other such cataclysmic event before you might find a moral argument in its favour. Morals, by their very nature, and sort of etherial and malleable.

Would you expect to be treated as a POW under the geneva convention by the other side if you were captured?

If I were captured in the normal process of conflict, yes. Not, mind you, because of fear in their minds of reprisals if they lost, but simply because it makes good sense. There is a common misconception that the Geneva Conventions should be followed out of an altruistic belief that one should be good to one's prisoners, when in reality there are slightly more practical, and self-centered reasons.

The first is obvious: If you go around abusing prisoners, it is quite likely that the enemy will do the same to yours. It's a pointless, vicious cycle that ends up harming your own guys.

The other is less so: If you establish a reputation for not treating prisoners well, you will end up with greater casualties. People with a perception of nothing to lose will fight longer, and harder, possibly to the death, long after they would have surrendered in 'normal' conditions. Again, this does absolutely nothing positive for you. You have a waste of time, personnel and materiel used in destroying the enemy that could have been used better.

It is curious to note that the two British Tornado pilots captured and tortured by the Iraqis in 1991 have stated that they don't bear any ill feelings towards their tormentors. They concluded that the Iraqi interrogators had a job to do, extracting information, they were just doing it.

It sounds like a cliche, but in reality the greater threats to the American founding principles of freedom and liberty come from the government, judical and military responses to terrorist actions (such as the Patriot act) than from terrorist actions themselves.

To a very large extent, I will agree with you. That said, the whole spying/kidnapping/assassination/secret-ninja-agent-in-foreign-countries thing predates the 'War on Terror' by several centuries.

Is it me, or do we have two entirely separate discussions going on in this thread? I hope mine is the more sensible one..

NTM

Manic Moran

On “moral principle”, you would ‘not condemn’ serious breaches of the laws of the United States and would ‘not condemn’ the brushing a side the sovereignty of the United States.

You would not ‘advocate’ such is ok, you’d just ‘not condemn’ such. Right.

I'm not entirely sure I can figure out a clearer way of saying this.

I have said that I believe a country, in extreme circumstances, has a moral right to go contravening other countries' laws, such as conducting abductions in their territory and whatever. For me to say that it is fine for America to have such a moral right to go to other countries, but not for other countries to have an equivalent moral right to conduct operations in America if people in America were a threat would be an admission of dual standards and hypocrisy.

That is far from saying that I encourage other countries to do so, and that I don't hope rather a lot that the FBI, NSA, CIA, DIA and so on does their best to thwart any such attempts, not least because I think that America really isn't a threat to anyone who doesn't warrant it. Yes, I support 'my side.' Yes, it's subjective. But aren't all perceptions and moral values?

NTM

billy the squid

lazydaisy wrote:

Yes.

I have a shorter fuse than most people on this forum, so to prevent myself from getting banned from this forum, I am going to let this one go, simply as I can't be arsed reiterating my self over and over again for someone who is too lazy to read a post more than once before replying to it.

Um, what? You complained that Bill O'Reilly doesnt know the history of his antecedants. African-Americans are not his antecedants.

Which I have done. in my last post referring to this man, I pointed out a second error in his history. the bit in bold. do you accept or deny that this second piece of history is inaccurate?

Secondly, and obviously African-Americans were not shipped from Africa. That was a verbal mishap. Its pretty clear he meant their antecedants.

No he stated that they, like the Irish left africa to get away from poverty and slavery, whereas in reality the africans who left for america, did so after being , wait for it, kidnapped, and then brought to the US to be sold. Even in the 1700 and 1800s American interests were kidnapping people in other countries.

Believing is seeing BTS.

Where in this thread have I used an insulting term to describe americans in general. either back up your accusation or shut up.

Actually, we were talking about being painted with a certain brush if you say anything which devitiates from the current Euro philiosophy on America.

I have supplied you with numerous accounts where the US media has made sweeping generalisations. at the same time you are pissing and moaning about le monde le mond le monde yet you have posted a total of zero links.

I dont have to. I didnt say that arabs dislike the US or point to a reason for it, whereas you did. What has burning the flag got to do with anything?

burning the US flag is the palestinian way of saying "We love you george bush"? doubtful. you claimed that only a minority of arabs distrust the US. I would beg to differ.

I guess you've never been to the UN.

You claimed that the UN was full of Arabs. Wikinight above has shown that only 18 of the nearly 200 countries, which have only ONE VOTE EACH are actually arabic. and I have provided you with a link.giving you details of who is on the security council of the UN, and arabic states can only hope for a temporary tennure on it. You have provided jack **** to prove that the Arabs are running the UN. to do so is nothing more than a conspiracy theory,

Have you ever been introduced to the concept of a sphere of influence?

speculative.

lazydaisy

Wicknight wrote:

That is my interpretation of what you said based on the words, syntax and sentence structure you used. Obviously thats not what you meant at all :rolleyes: .

You're decontextualising and fantasies of those things is leading you to a false reading.

Wicknight wrote:

"Nox - dont you know everything is America's fault?
And if you disagree, well then you're a right wing imperial bast***?".

How is that saying that criticising the US government is the same as hating americans? That is a GIGANTIC interpretive leap.

Wicknight wrote:

You then mention how much European media hates America

No, I mentioned that AFTER you started talking about Bill O'Reilly and his banter about the French to explain to you what he is responding to because you seemed to have though it was because France didn't join the coalition, and that wasnt exclusively it. It is also because of what the French media say about Americans, [not the government-the citizens].

Wicknight wrote:

You jumped in with the (rather silly) argument that anyone who disagrees with the "Euro" way of thinking has people unfairly jumping down their throat, as if TC (and others) criticisms of Nox's posts were malicious and unjustified.

I said the first part of that sentence. I didnt comment on anyone's response to Nox post. Malicious and unjustified are YOUR words. I will ask you again: Please stop making things up about what I say. But it is true, look at how many people are at me, and it all started when I said if you disagree with the Euro philosophy on the US then you get your throat jumped down.

Wicknight wrote:

That is deflection (a tactic used a lot by Bill O'Rielly, hence the comparision), instead of tackling the issues and arguments actually presented, you attempt to discredit the postion of the person doing the criticism, in this case by suggesting the have an unfounded and unjustified vendeta against the person because they are American, or don't agree with the Euro way of thinking (what ever that is). It is deflection because it avoids all the actual points being argued..

That is not why my comment was being compared to Bill O'Reilly. There were other reasons. The rest of your paragraph is nonsense. I never said any of that. This: by suggesting the have an unfounded and unjustified vendeta against the person because they are American and this: don't agree with the Euro way of thinking are two different things. I said the latter, I didnt say the former.

Wicknight wrote:

ll that did was confirm it was your position ... are you now denying any of what you posted. ..

No, Im denying the fantasies you have about what I posted.

Wicknight wrote:

You seem to be saying that even though you do believe this, I have no right to post that you believe it unless I am directly quoting you stating that you believe it because I am miss-representing you and putting words in your mouth. Which is a bit silly.

QUOTE]

1. You have a right to post whatever you like. The mods may tsk tsk or ban you and that may be the price you pay. But you have ever right to your opinion and to voice it.

2. Yes, you are putting words in my mouth, making assumptions and also making things up about what I have said. You fabricating what I say, I do believe trespasses on my rights, because you are denying my right to a voice, hence the phrase "jumping down one's throat."

billy the squid

I wouldn't go as far as to say that I like the concept, but I don't have a sufficiently idealistic world view to say that such practises do not have their place if required. Kindof like the villain in Serenity. "There is no place for people like me in ideal society, yet in order to achieve that society in the first place, people like me must exist"

NTM

Its a yes or no answer. If it is alright for US interests to go into other countries and kidnap people, is it equally OK for foreign interests to go into the US and kidnap people.

Hobbes

Lazydaisy if your not going to post your sources for how many cleaning staff are Arabs and are able to influence the world stage, then hows about coming back on topic. It was you who dragged it off topic to begin with.

Ps. You have also yet to point out any of these Le Monde Stories you go on about. I suspect you can't find any.

lazydaisy

billy the squid wrote:

I have a shorter fuse than most people on this forum, so to prevent myself from getting banned from this forum, I am going to let this one go, simply as I can't be arsed reiterating my self over and over again for someone who is too lazy to read a post more than once before replying to it. [QUOTE.]

Thanks.

So here's the paragraph from your BOR quote:
My people came from County Cavan in Ireland. All right? And the British Crown marched in there with their henchman, Oliver Cromwell, and they seized all of my ancestors' lands, everything. And they threw them into slavery, pretty much indentured servitude on the land. And then the land collapsed, all right? And everybody was starving in Ireland. They had to leave the country, just as Africans had to leave -- African-Americans had to leave Africa and come over on a boat and try to make in the New World with nothing. Nothing. And succeeded, succeeded. As did Italians, as did -- and I'll submit to you, African-Americans are succeeding as well. So all of these things can be overcome I think, [caller]. Go ahead.

billy the squid wrote:

Which I have done. in my last post referring to this man, I pointed out a second error in his history. the bit in bold. do you accept or deny that this second piece of history is inaccurate?[QUOTE.]

Are you saying that they didnt have to leave, that they chose to leave? You cant be serious.

billy the squid wrote:

No he stated that they, like the Irish left africa to get away from poverty and slavery, whereas in reality the africans who left for america, did so after being , wait for it, kidnapped, and then brought to the US to be sold. Even in the 1700 and 1800s American interests were kidnapping people in other countries.[QUOTE.]

That's not entirely accurate. 1. He didnt state that they had to leave to get away from poverty and slavery. 2. He didn't say that the Irish left Africa 3. The Africans who left for America were kidnapped. Debatable. 4. In the 1700s were the interests American or British?

billy the squid wrote:

Where in this thread have I used an insulting term to describe americans in general. either back up your accusation or shut up.[QUOTE.]

Charming.

billy the squid wrote:

I have supplied you with numerous accounts where the US media has made sweeping generalisations. at the same time you are pissing and moaning about le monde le mond le monde yet you have posted a total of zero links.[QUOTE.]

Im doing no such thing. This is the second time that you have referenced urine.

billy the squid wrote:

burning the US flag is the palestinian way of saying "We love you george bush"? doubtful. you claimed that only a minority of arabs distrust the US. I would beg to differ.[QUOTE.]

I made no such claim. I still dont know what flag burning has to do with anything.

Anyway- I dont take kindly to being told to shut up or any other form of abuse so I will not be responding to you again. Im sure you are relieved or soon will be.

Hobbes

So you don't have any of the Le Monde stories is what you are saying?

lazydaisy

Hobbes wrote:

Lazydaisy if your not going to post your sources for how many cleaning staff are Arabs and are able to influence the world stage, then hows about coming back on topic. It was you who dragged it off topic to begin with.

Ps. You have also yet to point out any of these Le Monde Stories you go on about. I suspect you can't find any.

Hobbes,

When I have a chance to get off the witness stand I will. I would like to get back on topic too.

I had A LOT of help with it going off topic so dont pin it all on me.

When you tell me why you don't think I read Le Monde I will do a search. And wouldnt that be dragging it off topic? Talk about mixed messages!

billy the squid

by all means report all my posts if you wish. I just take issue with you accusing me of making generalisations about americans over and over and over again when you cannot back them up.

you should consider yourself lucky I have given you a choice to either back up yoru accusations or be quiet, rather than just telling you to be quiet. which I have no intention of doing.

and yes, most irish who left, did so by choice, where as most africans were put on boats and sold off as slaves. you have to remember nearly 4 million stayed, 1 million died in the famine and the rest emigrated, and continued to emigrate, long after Ireland became independent of the UK in 1949.

lazydaisy

Hobbes wrote:

So you don't have any of the Le Monde stories is what you are saying?

Oh we're back to telling me what Im saying.

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

Oh we're back to telling me what Im saying.

Oh I am sorry, you do have the stories then? Can you post links to them so I can read them. I interested because I have ran through google+le Monde and can't find anything that you are talking about.

So I am hoping with your knowledge of the situation that you mentioned earlier you will post the links. Don't let us down!

Ok guys I have every intention of banning the whole lot of ye and rounding ye up and putting ye all in a stuffy smelly room laced with the aroma of cow farts if ye dont all respect each others views.

It is obvious to the readers who is or isnt backing up their claims or whether horseshít is being spoken on this thread so bear than in mind.
In other words ask for links by all means and if they are not forthcoming just say I dont believe your opinion unless you can show me it's fact or whatever.

In short please dont be uncivil with each other.

I aint giving another warning,I'll be using the thread tools or other available devices to take action.

So nobody tempt me

Thank you if you pay attention to this public service announcement.

billy the squid

billy the squid wrote:

by all means report all my posts if you wish. I just take issue with you accusing me of making generalisations about americans over and over and over again when you cannot back them up.

you should consider yourself lucky I have given you a choice to either back up yoru accusations or be quiet, rather than just telling you to be quiet. which I have no intention of doing.

and yes, most irish who left, did so by choice, where as most africans were put on boats and sold off as slaves. you have to remember nearly 4 million stayed, 1 million died in the famine and the rest emigrated, and continued to emigrate, long after Ireland became independent of the UK in 1949.

and just to add lazy daisy, unlike the irish, the African people were probably happier in their native country than they were when they arrived in America, contrary to what O'Reilly is trying to claim.

lazydaisy

On racism and americans:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/recherche_resultats/1,13-0,1-0,0.html?query=les+americains+racisme&query2=&booleen=et&num_page=2&auteur=&dans=dansarticle&periode=dateprecise&ordre=pertinence&G_NBARCHIVES=895921&nbpages=50&artparpage=10&nb_art=500&debutjour=11&debutmois=09&debutannee=2000&finjour=26&finmois=12&finannee=2005

The English version with far less entries:
http://mondediplo.com/search?s=racist+americans&Submit.x=10&Submit.y=13


On Islam
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/recherche_resultats/1,13-0,1-0,0.html

In English - with far less entries again.
http://mondediplo.com/search?s=islam&Submit.x=12&Submit.y=7

On American education:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/recherche_resultats/1,13-0,1-0,0.html

In English:
http://mondediplo.com/search?s=american+education&Submit.x=13&Submit.y=8

Hobbes - there is plenty there for you to read. But get your credit card out. You have to pay for most of it. Ive supplied a lot so you can gather your own opinion and pick which articles you want to read.

GuanYin

Thanks for those.

Would you address the arab/UN issue please? Your point is still very confusing there.

Zombrex

It seems pretty clear you didn't actually read any of these articles (especially the ones that talk about racism in Germany), all you did was search for the words "racism" and "america" in their search engine

If you do that in the Washington Post you get 628 new entries
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/Search?keywords=racism%20america

Hell, on Fox News you get 116 articles
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=Racism+America++site%3Awww.foxnews.com&btnG=Search&meta=

Can we take it from this that you have never actually read an article in Le Monde that attacked Americans in general for being stereotypically racists and uneducated?

Anyway, before Earthman bans us all I supposed I should make and attempt to drag this back on topic.

Forbes.com is reporting that the Italians want to speak to Robert Lady, a CIA station chief in Milian in 2003, about a trip he took to Eygpt around the same time as the kidnapping.

Lady is currently in America, which according to Forbes so are all the CIA agents with arrest warrants out for them. So it begs the question that even if the Italians actually go ahead with this (Forbes say the requests for extradition have not yet been passed to Washington) will the US government agree to this.

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2005/12/28/ap2417490.html

Nox

billy the squid wrote:

you want resoloutions condemning arab countries heres a couple

resoloution 660.(Iraq)
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/575/10/IMG/NR057510.pdf?OpenElement

Resoloution 1267 (Afghanistan)
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/300/44/PDF/N9930044.pdf?OpenElement

Resoloution 384 (Indonesia)
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/782/32/IMG/NR078232.pdf?OpenElement

so you see, despite the bull**** FOX has been feeding you, there have indeed been resoloutions which were not in favour of Arabic nations. I found three but if you want to look yourself, theres help your self.
http://www.un.org/documents/scres.htm

Thank you for finally answering the first question. Your response implies that I stated there weren't any. I shall refresh your memory ... I asked for the number. You are showing a tendency to change things around. Now Mr. Billy, what is the ratio of the anti-Israeli to the anti-Arab resolutions?

billy the squid wrote:

then address the points being raised rather than the ethnicity of the posters.

Billy ... show me where I have attacked anyone's ethnicity. Your honesty is beginning to come into question.

billy the squid wrote:

I am well aware of how bill O'Reily feels about the french people. you might need quicktime for the clips below

http://mediamatters.org/items/200511100002
http://mediamatters.org/items/200411230005
http://mediamatters.org/items/200411230005

Did you happen to read what these say? I'll just talk a little about the first one. Bill was criticized for making a comment that the French didn't speak English. A totally true statement. When I was in France I found that even though many of the French people could speak English ... they prefered to speak French. I still haven't figured out why the French who could speak English would prefer to speak French in France. Maybe you could give me a clue or two about this. Anyway ... this article took a true statement and distorted it out of proportion. After the first ... I didn't bother with the rest.

billy the squid wrote:

I would not be as religius a viewer as your self, i do not watch every single show. given that it is on at an ungodly hour of the night here. most episodes i would watch as he can be good for a giggle at his stupidity.

I sense that you are getting closer to the truth. I do believe that you have watched at least part of a Bill program. I do not believe that you have watched enough to go beyond some of your erroneous generalizations.

billy the squid wrote:

re: car sticker. bully for you.

Thank you. You too could be the proud owner of one also ... I'll get you the address if you're interested.

billy the squid wrote:

answer the question, would such a thing be allowed in the US?

Okay ... I will. I would object to a US citizen being grabbed off the street. But guess what Billy ... that guy was a EGYPTIAN cleric who was returned to EGYPT for questioning. You FALSELY stated that this guy was an Italian citizen then you trying alter the subject. Your credibility is severly in question.

billy the squid wrote:

when you get down to it yeah. why else does the US meddle in middle eastern affairs, and veto as many UN resoloutions condemning human rights abuses by the israelis. It is the very reason arabs have a disliking for the US.

The reason the arabs dislike the US is because we veto UN resolutions. God I love it. Billy, here's a way you can save face and restore credibility. Get your Euro buddies together and get them to agree that this is WHY the Arabs dislike us. Not some cheap cop-out that this is among others ... but this is THE reason. Seems to me that yesterday, the reason US troops were being killed in Iraq had something to with Israel. I'm beginning to see a trend here ... YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ISRAEL (and the US).

Hmmm ... aren't you the one who earlier accused ME of attacking folks ethnicity????

billy the squid wrote:

kool-aid is urine in a can.

More proof that you really don't watch O Reilly very much. Pity.

Nox

Nox

Wicknight wrote:

The issue here in this thread is that the CIA is kidnapping people in foreign countries and transporting them to countries that practice torture.

Almost true. These people are transported to their country of origin for interrogation where folks assume they are tortured.

Wicknight wrote:

If the CIA had never done anything bad ever before that would be enough to be outraged at the arrogence of the American intelligence services.

The CIA is not perfect ... however ... they get blamed for a lot which is totally bogus. A prime example ... The CIA created HIV.

Wicknight wrote:

I would like to see what happened if a Italian spy commited a serious crime in the US.

Me too.

Wicknight wrote:

Also don't forget this is coming only months after an Italian spy was shot to death in Iraq by US soldiers.

Yet again ... almost true. I still question the facts as presented because both sides agree the shooting was accidental. If it was accidental ... then either someone in the US didn't pass the word, the Italians didn't give prior warning ... or ... you see the problems. As far as the journalist ... she is hardly an unbiased witness about much of anything. After all ... she stated that coordination had been made. Since she was still a captive at the time this occured, how does she know? But, time will tell.

In any event, all of this has plenty of ramifications. To me, the REAL beef that the Italians should have against the US is the US plane that cut the cable car cables.

Nox

Nox

psi wrote:

The US credibility has been irreparably damaged by the actions of the US administration and military in its general approach to foreign policy.

Well ... if it's irreparably damaged ... then it's a waste of time for us to do anything about it. Why bother?

Nox

Nox

Wicknight wrote:

Nox's arguments had been effectivally argued by TC. Nox had obviously given up arguing and had resorted to rather silly rant about commie journalists and some such.

If you have something to say about me ... say it to me. Quit hiding behind a skirt.

As far as giving up ... I refuse to deal with an uncivil individual. And and as far as a "silly rant" ... post it.

In any case ... present your case about me to me.

Nox

billy the squid

Nox wrote:

Thank you for finally answering the first question. Your response implies that I stated there weren't any. I shall refresh your memory ... I asked for the number. You are showing a tendency to change things around. Now Mr. Billy, what is the ratio of the anti-Israeli to the anti-Arab resolutions?

Indeed there are many many more resoloutions condemning Israel. but what is your point? It doesnt prove that there is bias in the UN towards Arabic countries in the UN. all it proves is that there were more instances of misdemenors on the part of Israel taking place.

If there is bias, then it is against the Arabic states. take a look at the list of anti-israel resoloutions which were vetoed by the US
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

Billy ... show me where I have attacked anyone's ethnicity. Your honesty is beginning to come into question.

Nox wrote:

A tad bit of a cheap shot ... but then YOU are a Euro so I guess it's to be expected. If you Euro's can dump on the USofA, you will take any and all opportunities to do so. I hope you take the additional two seconds to think about some alternative possibilities to the story. The greatest possibility is that the CIA might be telling the truth. Another possibility is that the Milan judge may have his own agenda.

Nox wrote:

Very easy for me to ignore this question since I started asking about the Italians first. No one here even acknowledged that the Italians might be wrong and by implication even YOU make the US guilty.

But then I shouldn't expect Euro's to ever do anything wrong. After all, everything is the fault of the USofA.

Nox wrote:

had to get up from the floor on this. Indeed, both of us are as you describe, but please explain to me the point. WE will decide nothing. WE are both wasting keystrokes across the pond ... spitting on each others opinions and attitudes. Now please tell me that YOU are not enjoying the intercourse. Because, if you are not, you can go to the bank on the fact that Nox will not waste any more of your time making you respond to me ... nor will Nox waste time on you. I must admit that the group of Euro's I've come across on this board (while typical Euro in attitude) have been far more cogent in expressing themselves. That means that so far ... I am enjoying the intercourse.

Repeated derogetory use of the term "euro".

Now for personal attacks

you received a warning for one on me link

and another on The Corinthian went unnoticed by the mods link

Did you happen to read what these say? I'll just talk a little about the first one. Bill was criticized for making a comment that the French didn't speak English. A totally true statement. When I was in France I found that even though many of the French people could speak English ... they prefered to speak French. I still haven't figured out why the French who could speak English would prefer to speak French in France. Maybe you could give me a clue or two about this. Anyway ... this article took a true statement and distorted it out of proportion. After the first ... I didn't bother with the rest.

because you are in their country perhaps? I doubt they would expect everyone in the US to speak french to them when they are in the US. O reily claimed that the french didnt speak english because they didn't like the Americans.

bill O Reily wrote:

One of the few countries in Europe that really doesn't speak English on a large level is France, because they don't like us.

They don't speak english in Italy or spain either, and they were part of "the coalition of the willing"

also he said. and it was in the headline on that page so you could not have missed it...

I'm down with that. But when, you know, you don't take a shower for 18 days, you know --

I sense that you are getting closer to the truth. I do believe that you have watched at least part of a Bill program. I do not believe that you have watched enough to go beyond some of your erroneous generalizations.

like I have said, you will have to provide better proof that I do not watch this, actually it was through a site he despises which led em to discover him.

Thank you. You too could be the proud owner of one also ... I'll get you the address if you're interested.

don't bother. you can get an Air America pack on my behalf though if you like.

Okay ... I will. I would object to a US citizen being grabbed off the street. But guess what Billy ... that guy was a EGYPTIAN cleric who was returned to EGYPT for questioning. You FALSELY stated that this guy was an Italian citizen then you trying alter the subject. Your credibility is severly in question.

double standards here. kidnapping by the US in other countries is OK so why should it not be OK for agents from another country kidnap people in the US.

The reason the arabs dislike the US is because we veto UN resolutions. God I love it. Billy, here's a way you can save face and restore credibility. Get your Euro buddies together and get them to agree that this is WHY the Arabs dislike us.

Have you been reading? I have stated constantly that the Arab countries dislike the US because of their foreign policy with relation to the middle east. Vetoing UN resoloutions is part of that foreign policy. again what is your point?

Not some cheap cop-out that this is among others ... but this is THE reason. Seems to me that yesterday, the reason US troops were being killed in Iraq had something to with Israel. I'm beginning to see a trend here ... YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ISRAEL (and the US).

I live in a country which was colonized by the Brittish, it is only natural that my sympathies would lie with a country which was colonized by a foreign people, namely the west bank being colonized by US citezens, and receiveing financial incentives to do so.

The Corinthian

Nox wrote:

When I was in France I found that even though many of the French people could speak English ... they prefered to speak French. I still haven't figured out why the French who could speak English would prefer to speak French in France.

Because it’s their language? That would seem a perfectly reasonable reason for them to prefer French.

Or are you saying that they could speak perfectly good English but refused to do so with you? If so, how did you know that they could speak perfectly good English?

Oh, and how many languages can you speak, out of interest?

Okay ... I will. I would object to a US citizen being grabbed off the street. But guess what Billy ... that guy was a EGYPTIAN cleric who was returned to EGYPT for questioning.

Would you object to, say, a Mexican citizen being snatched off the streets of New York by Italian agents?

The reason the arabs dislike the US is because we veto UN resolutions. God I love it. Billy, here's a way you can save face and restore credibility. Get your Euro buddies together and get them to agree that this is WHY the Arabs dislike us. Not some cheap cop-out that this is among others ... but this is THE reason.

Ostensibly this is correct, if simplistic. The US’s partisan approach to the Israeli-Palestinian dilemma is certainly at the forefront of this antagonism. For example, Iraq was largely invaded under the pretext that it was in the process of developing WMD’s (that I might remind you turned out not to exist). Iran is presently being threatened because it is believed to be in the process of developing nuclear weapons.

Yet Israel has long been acknowledged to already have nuclear weapons, in violation of numerous non-proliferation agreements, yet the US has held an official position that it does not acknowledge their existence. It is this kind of double standard, not simply a question of vetoing motions, that has resulted in both suspicion and resentment against the US, in the Arab World. In fairness, you can hardly blame them.

However this is not the only reason. A number of other reasons also come into play; an inevitable clash of cultures, between Western consumerism and Middle Eastern Islam is another issue. The US’s habit of propping up some undemocratic regimes (e.g. Egypt and Saudi Arabia) while exposing democracy in the region is another.

Seems to me that yesterday, the reason US troops were being killed in Iraq had something to with Israel. I'm beginning to see a trend here ... YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ISRAEL (and the US).

Hmmm ... aren't you the one who earlier accused ME of attacking folks ethnicity????

Oh, are we trying to turn this into a discussion about anti-Semitism then?

More proof that you really don't watch O Reilly very much. Pity.

I’ve never tried Kool-Aid, so I can’t comment on whether it’s nice or not. I don’t see the connection between it and O’Reilly though - care to elaborate?

In any event, all of this has plenty of ramifications. To me, the REAL beef that the Italians should have against the US is the US plane that cut the cable car cables.

TBH, the US has probably done as much harm as good in Italy since World War II, the cable car incident was simply another chapter in this, as was the kidnapping.

As far as giving up ... I refuse to deal with an uncivil individual.

I really do not see where I was being uncivil especially in light of your own frequently condescending posts to the other people in this tread.

You should practice what you preach before getting onto a pedestal - you’ll find people will take you more seriously if you do.

lazydaisy

billy the squid wrote:

you can get an Air America pack on my behalf though if you like.

.

Whats an Air America Pack?

billy the squid

lazydaisy wrote:

Whats an Air America Pack?

https://secure.airamericaradio.com/

Nox

billy the squid wrote:

Indeed there are many many more resoloutions condemning Israel. but what is your point?

I don't know. YOU are the one who brought up the UN resolutions. What was YOUR point?

billy the squid wrote:

Repeated derogetory use of the term "euro".

Hmmm ... Euro, short for European. I guess European is technically an ethnicity. However, if I were to be derogetory as you allege ... then I probably would have used the word Euro-trash ... and I have not. Very, very, lame Mr. Euro.

billy the squid wrote:

Now for personal attacks

you received a warning for one on me link

Personal attack? Looks to me like a statement of fact. And by the way ... I suggest you read the ENTIRE post. Seems to me that YOU were being spoken about as well.

billy the squid wrote:

and another on The Corinthian went unnoticed by the mods link

Error of fact. If you look at the marquis of said individual you will find what word??? I'll let you figure that one out.

billy the squid wrote:

because you are in their country perhaps? I doubt they would expect everyone in the US to speak french to them when they are in the US. O reily claimed that the french didnt speak english because they didn't like the Americans.

I suggest you re-read your link.

billy the squid wrote:

They don't speak english in Italy or spain either, and they were part of "the coalition of the willing"

wow ... I don't know if I will EVER figure out why the "ethnic Euro's" fail to speak English in their own country. This one is too hard for me to figure out.

billy the squid wrote:

also he said. and it was in the headline on that page so you could not have missed it...

Well, that's proof. A headline ALWAYS tells the truth.:eek:

billy the squid wrote:

like I have said, you will have to provide better proof that I do not watch this, actually it was through a site he despises which led em to discover him.

No ... I don't have to provide any more proof. You do that each and every time you try to make the false claim. However, it really makes no difference either way. So I'll tell you what ... I will publicly state that Billy watches Bill all the time and is completely familiar with all that transpires on the show.

Wanna buy my used car?

billy the squid wrote:

don't bother. you can get an Air America pack on my behalf though if you like.

Send it to me.

billy the squid wrote:

double standards here. kidnapping by the US in other countries is OK so why should it not be OK for agents from another country kidnap people in the US.

Billy, you still miss the point. YOU falsely stated that the US had kidnapped an Italian citizen. Now you obfuscate with "double standards".

billy the squid wrote:

Have you been reading? I have stated constantly that the Arab countries dislike the US because of their foreign policy with relation to the middle east. Vetoing UN resoloutions is part of that foreign policy. again what is your point?

I really like your first sentence ... have YOU been reading? Is reading comprehension a problem for you?

billy the squid wrote:

I live in a country which was colonized by the Brittish

I was going to say ... me too and then I realized that the country I live in was colonized by the BRITISH (among others).

billy the squid wrote:

it is only natural that my sympathies would lie with a country which was colonized by a foreign people, namely the west bank being colonized by US citezens, and receiveing financial incentives to do so.

My compliments Billy, finally a comment with a little meat on it.

I will have to research the accuracy of your statement since I really don't know. I had always thought that those new settlements were composed mainly of Russian emigrees. I was not aware that there was such a large exodus of the American Jewish population. The financial incentives came from ... where/who/whom?

Nox

lazydaisy

The Corinthian wrote:

Would you object to, say, a Mexican citizen being snatched off the streets of New York by Italian agents?.

It depends on the context. If the Italian authorites had enough evidence to suspect that this guy was a threat to their nation or even to another nation,or had crucial info regarding an immediate threat but had no clout with the NYPD, or didn't have the time to go through the NYC judicial process, but perhaps tipped off someone higher up - then no I wouldn;t have a problem with it. I wouldnt object to a US citizen being grabbed either, if for the same reasons.

Oh and BTS - I too live in a country that was colonised by the British.

Nox

Manic Moran wrote:

Just to add the fuel to the fire, the Greeks are accusing the British intelligence agencies of kidnapping in their territory.

http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20051213-062711-8207r

Apparently the chap was interviewed on BBC News 24, and the BBC interviewer said that he didn't seem very convincing, but the ruckus is ongoing anyway.

I missed this earlier.

Here we go with allegations again. I want the ICC involved.

Nox

billy the squid

this was not partof the headline:

O'REILLY: And there's nothing wrong with that. Sure, you want to have a croissant, knock yourself out. You like the little escargot; hey, I'm down with that. But when, you know, you don't take a shower for 18 days, you know --

there is even an audio recording of the conversation there if you have quicktime you should be able to hear it. so the author didnt make it up.

the article proves that his claims were bull****,
http://mediamatters.org/items/200511100002

and for the record, calling someone pompous is being insulting.

Nox wrote:

Do yourself a favor ... don't respond to me. Take your moderator pompousness and use it elsewhere.

Wanna buy my used car?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=495

Billy, you still miss the point. YOU falsely stated that the US had kidnapped an Italian citizen. Now you obfuscate with "double standards".

only calling a spade, a spade, you are following double standards, objecting to the lifting of a person in another country by the US intelligience agency while objecting to someone in the US being lifted by a foreign agency. this is after all double standards is it not.

I was going to say ... me too and then I realized that the country I live in was colonized by the BRITISH (among others).

I think there is a difference here in that more than likely your ansestors were the ones who colonized the US where as mine are native to this country. Unless of course you are native american, american Indian?

I will have to research the accuracy of your statement since I really don't know. I had always thought that those new settlements were composed mainly of Russian emigrees. I was not aware that there was such a large exodus of the American Jewish population. The financial incentives came from ... where/who/whom?

the financial incentives have been posted by me earlier in this thread. they even have a fancy name for it, Aliyah.