travellers in flash cars??

bounty

i bet Hobbes lives a very sheltered life, in some leafy suburb far away from any halting sites, living in ignorant denial about the poor persecuted travelling folk :rolleyes:

Giblet

Davei141 wrote:

Hobbes, how many travellers on average do you interact with daily? Do you live near a halting site?

Answer me those questions, and if you already have, then link them please.

Why should hobbes be the only one to answer this? Or are his opinions the only ones that contradict yours?

Giblet

bounty wrote:

i bet Hobbes lives a very sheltered life, in some leafy suburb far away from any halting sites, living in ignorant denial about the poor persecuted travelling folk :rolleyes:

Shut up and stop posting.

bounty

Giblet wrote:

Shut up and stop posting.

so, if my opinion contradicts yours, i shouldnt post? :rolleyes:

Giblet

bounty wrote:

so, if my opinion contradicts yours, i shouldnt post? :rolleyes:

You weren't giving an opinion on the topic, you were having a dig at hobbes Mr. Rolleyes, and I never gave an opinion so how does what you've said make sense?

OMcGovern

I hear the pharmaceutical company "Procter & Gamble" have developed a new shampoo for travellers.... it's called "Go and wash"

Davei141

Giblet wrote:

Why should hobbes be the only one to answer this? Or are his opinions the only ones that contradict yours?

Most of the others have given personal experiences while hobbes has given websites. And if it bothers you so much feel free to answer it aswell.

Freelancer

deisedevil wrote:

Hobbes: "Ok I'll give you that. It is your opinion that the majority are criminals, you just have no facts to back it up though. Once we are clear on that."

But you have no facts to disagree with that claim either, silly arguement,

Spurious and inane argument. You make the claim the onus is on you to prove it, not on Hobbes to disprove it.

Otherwise we could do this;

"People called Deisedevil are syphillitic pimps who enjoy sexual congress with goats"*

When you deny it we demand you don't have sex with goats. Asking Hobbes to disprove your assertion isn't his job and making a claim about someone or a group and demanding we disprove it isn't the way it works in y'know the world.

boards.ie is about poeple giving their opinions, i guarentee you if you go out on the street and ask people what they think about you'll see most agree with the my view on it.

So it's your opinion that they are all criminals, and it's your opinion most people would agree with you.

Hobbes on the other hand has contracted the opinions of many of this thread, and provided statistics and facts to support his assertion.

But all you have is your opinion, and your opinion that your opinion is the opinion of most. Which is a piss poor argument.

Hobbes:"Of course it being your opinion you are only talking about those local to you, don't suppose you know what the figure is?"

I am not just talking about those local to me, i have heard and seen plenty from all over the country to know it's not just in my own area. Ask people from any county in Ireland and you'll get a resounding YES that the majority of Travellers are breaking the law in many different ways!

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. That you claim your straw poll proves that this is happening? That your focus group of unknown size and background that you claim you took proves that this is happening? It doesn't.

Okay let me get this clear.

Do you think that the majority of travellers commit crimes?

Or do you know?

Which is it.

Because the first is just unsubstaniated slander, which spreads myths, the later is something you've abjectly failed to prove in any real sense. Which I think is the main thrust of the pro lobby, that travellers are often maligned and villified without any real evidence. And you and the rest of your kind of this thread are proving that point.

Hobbes: "Again with the vast majority. How much of a vast majority are troublemakers?"

This is too bloody confusing. I said the vast majority are troublemakers and you then ask how much of the vast majority are troublemakers, ammmmmmm, the vast majority!:rolleyes:

It's really simple you claim you know the vast majority are "trouble makers". How much is a vast majority? When does a majority become a vast majority? 55%? 75%? 99%?

What do you offer to support your assertion? What evidence do you possess? How large a group did you speak to when you were asking about travellers? Or simply put do you claim to have ancedotal evidence about every traveller in Ireland?

Not much point continuing this silly arguement anyways, i know what i have seen and heard and i have had plenty of experiences with travellers to know that most of them (the vast feckin majority) are not worth bothering with and to avoid them as much as possible.

So despite hobbes successful attempt to demolish some myths you're grand to stay with your predjuidices thank you very much?

You have a different view of them, that's fair enough, i just hope you don't ever get taken advantage of by them, you sound a bit naive in relation to the problems travellers cause.

Ah the timeless I am a man of the world and I've seen more than you patronising approach.

Christ the anti lobby are wheeling out all the classics on this one

*Not an insult just illustrating a point about assertions and the burden of proof.

psicic

Hobbes wrote:

Actually all they get is a teacher who helps the family in getting placement. (Which is not the same as SCP from what I can tell)

This is a bit O/T - From what I know (which isn't a lot, so anyone with more info, please feel free to correct), there's nothing to stop a traveller from availing of SCP and the usual courses of action open to Joe 'I-live-in-a-house' Blogs, which is what I was referring to.

The DES provides extra resources specifically for traveller children in an effort to get more traveller children in schools, as you rightly pointed out. It's highly unlikely that they'd ever reach the stage of having to persue the same avenues that settled people would because the extra supports for finding a placement should kick in by then. I was just stating that they could.

It would seem to me unlikely that traveller children are being denied a place in school by the system itself. It would more than likely be a parental thing. However, it's false to say this is a stagnant picture. Traveller families are becoming much more aware of the need for good, basic education, especially in business. That's why the Traveller Education Centres(like Adult Education specifically for Travellers) are such a good idea - they reaffirm to parents the need to educate both themselves and their children. Also, other efforts are made, such as those Adult Literacy courses on telly.

As for Third Level Figures - even if it showed all 27,000 travellers in third level, it's a placebo figure at best. Third Level isn't compulsory and its' main achievment in this country is to delay the (until recently) ever-increasing glut of untrained labour avilable to the market after each Leaving Cert.

billy the squid

OMcGovern wrote:

I hear the pharmaceutical company "Procter & Gamble" have developed a new shampoo for travellers.... it's called "Go and wash"

when all else fails throw out a racist/ethnic/sectarian/bigotted joke.

Victor

Davei141 wrote:

Hobbes, how many travellers on average do you interact with daily? Do you live near a halting site?

How many on average do you interact with daily? Do you live near a halting site?

OMcGovern

billy the squid wrote:

when all else fails throw out a racist/ethnic/sectarian/bigotted joke.

What failed ? And who gets to judge that ?

I think a lot of people, including myself, have got a load off our minds about bad experiences with travellers. In a politically correct, liberal society, maybe we probably need outlets like this.

There was never going to be a "final score" at the end of this posting on "who won".

billy the squid

I think that if you have "loads on your mind" then calling the Samaritans would be a better idea than posting offensive jokes on the internet.

OMcGovern

Some might think that's a pretty offensive remark about the samartians, especially since Christmas and the New Year are peak times for suicides.

Political correctness can go too far... which is probably a topic worthy of an entirely new thread.

While I'm verbally attacking the travellers, (who physically attacked me last month), you're attacking the anti-traveller posters....

Maybe we both have unresolved issues, only you hide behind a fake sense of morality and policital correctness.

Atrocity

Hey don't be giving the travellers a hard time for having flash cars. They're just upgrading the size of their vehicles; naturally a bit of 'blinging' goes along with that. They need as much space as they can get, Christmas trees are getting bigger and bigger

billy the squid

OMcGovern wrote:

Some might think that's a pretty offensive remark about the samartians, especially since Christmas and the New Year are peak times for suicides.

Political correctness can go too far... which is probably a topic worthy of an entirely new thread.

While I'm verbally attacking the travellers, (who physically attacked me last month), you're attacking the anti-traveller posters....

Maybe we both have unresolved issues, only you hide behind a fake sense of morality and policital correctness.

I don't see how I am insulting the samaritans. Calling them with your hang-ups would be a more constructive course of action than offending others.

and where is your evidence that my sense of morality is fake? you don't know me.

OMcGovern

billy the squid wrote:

I don't see how I am insulting the samaritans. Calling them with your hang-ups would be a more constructive course of action than offending others.

and where is your evidence that my sense of morality is fake? you don't know me.

You are belittling the people who genuinely call the Samartians by using it as an insult to me. Thought you would have got that ?

A "forum" is a place to talk, get things out in the open.
Would you rather we were all repressed and bottle it up ?
Off-topic : By any chance does your job involve really detailed work ? An Analyst perhaps ?

Clearly, you want to lash out at other people, but only if it appears to be in a socially acceptable way, like defending others. It's a classic male fantasy, to fight on the side of justice and morality against evil.
I don't blame you.... I just see through it.

billy the squid

OMcGovern wrote:

You are belittling the people who genuinely call the Samartians by using it as an insult to me. Thought you would have got that ?

A "forum" is a place to talk, get things out in the open.
Would you rather we were all repressed and bottle it up ?
Off-topic : By any chance does your job involve really detailed work ? An Analyst perhaps ?

Clearly, you want to lash out at other people, but only if it appears to be in a socially acceptable way, like defending others. It's a classic male fantasy, to fight on the side of justice and morality against evil.
I don't blame you.... I just see through it.

I don't think I am insulting you by suggesting that you call the Samaritans if you feel that your recent attack has effected you. it was a genuine suggestion. As for lashing out, I'm not the one posting offensive and biggoted jokes and slurs in this thread. once again, your reply shows that you don't know me. I think you would understand my position more if you read all my posts in this thread.

monument

Since we’re all doing generalisations today, can I ask why is it the kind of people who would come out with the kind of slurs saying that “travellers all inbreed”, or “they only marry their relations” etc are same people who are most likely to say they are not a different race?

I for one don’t give a **** what race they are or not or what they claim to be, the fact is they are being discriminated because they are different and massive generalisations are being said about them as a whole because of the actions of the few.

Hobbes wrote:

Now I am more then welcome to look at the "anti-travellers" sources to back up what they are saying but to date I have to see anything beyond name calling.

I've been trying here http://www.finegael.ie/ because of what I've heard their people say in the past, but I cant find any of this facts crap you talk about.

the_menace wrote:

The Jews didn't deserve it though.

For even leaving the possibility that you mean that travellers do, may I ask are you a bigot who believes in genocide (which is not confined to race btw), or just a bigot?

OMcGovern wrote:

While I'm verbally attacking the travellers, (who physically attacked me last month),

"the travellers", the whole lot of them, attacked you?

Tha Gopher

Whats the difference between a small hospital and the back of a Hi-Ace?

You can fit more Wards in the back of a Hi-Ace


Sorry:D


In fairness, nobody from Pavee Point can provide an answer as to how, hypothetically speaking, a large family on welfare can afford to be driving top of the range German cars (waits for some idiot to say "can you provide the name of a family of travellers you know who live like this, and can you prove its the result of crime, and can you also prove they are on benefits). I dont deny some live in poverty, but considering that most of us cant think of one traveller who is a well known businessman but we know several to see who drive the big cars. And it sort of lowers the tone of the organisation when theyre own reps are arrested at Dunsink for disorderly conduct.

Monument, be quiet. Its a known fact that many travellers marry close or distant relations, a practice almost unheard of in the settled community for many, many generations. Grow up.

You cant deny the facts. Iirc, a survey of something like 7 elderly people murdered in their homes during robberies in a particular time period (maybe the entire 90s) I think 5 were commited by travellers. Now, Pavee Points excuse would be that young Traveller men are driven to crime and violence by poverty. Yet they fail to explain how some travellers have the massive caravans, BMWs etc? Make up your mind guys, are you poor and oppressed or rich because of your hard work?

Out of curiousity have ANY of you ever worked with a Traveller in paid employment? And, Id love to hear from a HR manager on this one, do you receive applications from Travellers roughly proportionate to their size in the population (about 0.7%)?

billy the squid

Tha Gopher wrote:

Whats the difference between a small hospital and the back of a Hi-Ace?

You can fit more Wards in the back of a Hi-Ace


Sorry:D[/qutoe]

will be reporting your post for that. avoiding reporting every single post with a joke like that in it doesn't seem to be getting through to the moderators.

In fairness, nobody from Pavee Point can provide an answer as to how, hypothetically speaking, a large family on welfare can afford to be driving top of the range German cars (waits for some idiot to say "can you provide the name of a family of travellers you know who live like this, and can you prove its the result of crime, and can you also prove they are on benefits).

There's your problem there. It is a hypothisis. Hypothises are not facts, they are theories.

I dont deny some live in poverty, but considering that most of us cant think of one traveller who is a well known businessman but we know several to see who drive the big cars.

It could be the ones with the flash cars for all you know.

And it sort of lowers the tone of the organisation when theyre own reps are arrested at Dunsink for disorderly conduct.

link?

Monument, be quiet. Its a known fact that many travellers marry close or distant relations, a practice almost unheard of in the settled community for many, many generations. Grow up.

what has who they marry got to do with criminality and flash cars?

You cant deny the facts. Iirc, a survey of something like 7 elderly people murdered in their homes during robberies in a particular time period (maybe the entire 90s)

Answer me this question. there has been a recent gang feud in dublin, how many people have been killed in that. how many of them were committed by travellers? and you don't have to go back a whole decade to reach 7.

I think 5 were commited by travellers.

you think?

Now, Pavee Points excuse would be that young Traveller men are driven to crime and violence by poverty.

I have never in my near 30 years on this blue and green planet of ours heard Pavee point justify murder.

Yet they fail to explain how some travellers have the massive caravans, BMWs etc? Make up your mind guys, are you poor and oppressed or rich because of your hard work?

It might be hard to believe that people who do work hard, and this might come as a shock, do earn enough to get flash cars. fcuk it, for all we know they could have bought them on finance, like a lot of settled people do.

Out of curiousity have ANY of you ever worked with a Traveller in paid employment?

yes

And, Id love to hear from a HR manager on this one, do you receive applications from Travellers roughly proportionate to their size in the population (about 0.7%)?

you could start with the guards. they have received 7 applications this year.

EDIT: as for reporting your post. i can't be arsed anymore.

Hobbes

psicic wrote:

This is a bit O/T - From what I know (which isn't a lot, so anyone with more info, please feel free to correct), there's nothing to stop a traveller from availing of SCP and the usual courses of action open to Joe 'I-live-in-a-house' Blogs, which is what I was referring to.

I agree but Settled people can also.

It would seem to me unlikely that traveller children are being denied a place in school by the system itself. It would more than likely be a parental thing.

By parental I would take it to mean thier parents as well as the parents of the children in the school. Take an earlier post where a person implied that traveller children would only be allowed near thier children if they washed. Would such a person say that to a teacher/headmaster when they find out travellers are being taught in thier school? TBH Settled people can be just as fuk'ing dirty tbh. (Example).

Tha Gopher

billy the squid wrote:

Tha Gopher wrote:

Answer me this question. there has been a recent gang feud in dublin, how many people have been killed in that. how many of them were committed by travellers? and you don't have to go back a whole decade to reach 7.



you could start with the guards. they have received 7 applications this year.

Seven? Seeing as we are so big on sources, wheres yours? Why is it unacceptable for me to quote info I read somewhere 6 months ago, but the 7 Gardai comes from nowhere? What I do know is that there is only one member of the travelling community serving with the Gardai. So of all the Gardai between, what, 21 and 55-60 odd, only one is a traveller, yet in the last year 7 more decided to join, presumably despite none having applied successfully in the time this one guy has been on the force?

As for the shootings, isnt one of the Limerick feuding families partially of traveller descent? The Dundons was it? How many violent gangland incidents in Dublin take place at settled funerals? And actually there was a traveller shot and severely wounded near Raheny this week. There is currently an ongoing feud between travellers in Coolock iirc where guns have been used. A traveller was shot dead either this year or last in Sligo town. A traveller was murdered in Clondalkin in an alledged dispute with a local drug dealer. As for the amount in Dublin, there have been a handful of travellers shot dead here in recent years. Whilst cocaine in the country tends to be Dublin sourced, travellers are known to be heavily involved in the trade in ecstasy and hash in areas such as Sligo, Cavan and Longford (a major smuggling gang was broken there a few months ago). Also, west Dublin travellers were frequently paid by the Westies and their affiliates to smuggle heroin from England back to Dublin (its in one of the Reynolds or Williams books). So to claim gang violence and drugs are purely a persuit of young men with northside accents is nonsense,

As for the arrest, it was in the paper, I believe it was that Martin Collins guy? At the time of the road block protests (when they notoriously carved "OPEN RAODS" (sic) into a local golf course )

Re marriage, nothing really, but Monument appeared to insinuitate that the practice of in-family marriage was an untrue stereotype.

As for the cars, bought on finance? How many banks are willing to lend money to people who have no fixed abode/constantly move address and, generally speaking, dont own property?

The problem is basically this- the majority of contact settled have with travellers is hostile. This year I have had three contacts with people who were clearly travellers (and dont ask "what makes you think they were", thats like asking a countryman why he thought somebody was from north Dublin)

1- Oxegen. A traveller conned me and the bird out of a ttal of 70 euro when we were severely drunk

2- A bus eireann between Navan and Dublin. Found myself 3 per seat with a traveller couple (the man had what appeared to be a massive slashook wound to his cheek) and their young child. They spent five minutes haggling the fair with the driver, claiming they had free travel passes that theyd left at home. They eventually paid, sat beside me. I was going to a job interview and so was wearing my good shirt (id been down in Navan seein a mate that morning). The pair of them STANK, sweat and stale milk, and they let their daughter nearly spill her bottle over my trousers, and me on the way to an interview. Kids are kids, so have the cop on to control them

3- McDonalds, Blanch Centre. Im in line, waiting to be served, a traveller infront accidently steps on my toe and looks around, says nothing. I simply say "dont worry bout it". He stares for 20 seconds before finally asking my name. I says it. Still gives funny look, then asks what I do. Tell him Im in college and have two jobs, as I do. He repeats this info to the wife in an aggressive tone, to which she replies "Martin for **** sake woulda ya leave it"....."Ah would ya **** off Mary Im only talkin to the young lad". By this stage Ive my fist clenched and ready for it to kick off, I dont give a sh1te Ida killed him there and then if he was to make a move, which it looked like he might. Eventually he calmed his tone and actually talked normal. It was defused, but the fact is the guy was insane.

4- When my mother politely refused to buy some religious crap he was selling a drunk old traveller told her to fcuk off and burn.

Now, in one year I had 4 incidents with 0.7% of the population. A fifth incident was my mates fault, he was so drunk he jumped on the back of some traveller he didnt know. Your man was annoyed and I told my mate to buy him a drink, as in fairness he had disrespected him, and it was all over then. But still, you must realise its reasons like this, 4 incidents in one year with a section of the population we rarely interact with, that has us forming the opinions we do. We have known to be wary of travellers since birth nearly. First interaction I recall with them, I was about 8, and some travellers of about 12 tried to persuade me to take an alternate route on my bike and cycle by their camp. Luckily my dad had warned me, lets just say if Id listened to them Santa woulda been packin an extra bike that Christmas.

In that same time period of one year I had a near violent incident with maybe two north Dubliners and one countryman, groups that form a larger % of the population. You honestly dont see a correlation?




edit- fair enough, but if its your point, you find the link http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:ZlKYx0BL1uEJ:www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgcwS7-GSs8Kw.asp+gardai+travelling+community+seven&hl=en&ie=UTF-8



btw, I shouldnt even have bothered, but heres our mate Collins getting arrested at Dunsink

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2004/10/09/story959797952.asp

"The garda action came after a night of tension, during which gangs of youths stoned passing motorists. A number of cars and an excavator as well as a building at Dunsink Observatory were set on fire"

Now Im not saying that settled kids dont drop rocks off motorway flyovers, they sometimes do, i think ANYONE involved in that should get the most severe sentence possible. Those boys should have got 10 years minimum, and the bleeding hearts here should pause to think of the consequences if one of those rocks came through their back window and split their childs head open.

Hobbes

Tha Gopher wrote:

As for the cars, bought on finance? How many banks are willing to lend money to people who have no fixed abode/constantly move address and, generally speaking, dont own property?

Meh... Do people ignore what is written already?
1. Halting site = Fixed Abode.
2. less then 1% actually move around. And even less then that are illegally halting.

Banks tend to give loans based on something to back it up.

the majority of contact settled have with travellers is hostile.

I spoke to a friend of mine last night regarding Travellers (hey if people believe others ancedotes ). She used to work as child carer for travellers who were having thier first child and did it for about 3 years. Basically teach them how to care for children. This program is/was open for settled people.

So I started off asking what percentage of travellers are criminals? Would you say the majority are criminals. I got a confused look. She wasn't sure what I was talking about.

After that I got more information out from her, these are her comments.
1. They are the nicest polite people she has met.
2. Between travellers and settled people she had less hassle from travellers when dealing with first time parents.
3. She told me at one point she was invited to a party in a local bar. 30 or travellers there and her and one other from her work. Only her, her friend and two travellers were actually drinking alcohol. Which she found strange at the time as she was also under the assumption that travellers caused problems in pubs (at that time).
4. I asked her about criminals. She said yes there are assholes and criminals but no more then you would find in Ireland in general.
5. I asked about halting sites being stripped. She mentioned yes she had seen instances of this happening and generally it is 1-2 familys of travellers that are doing this sort of crap.
6. She was also invited to a wedding function in a hotel full of travellers. Not one incident happened and it was just a normal function.
7. She had witnessed on numerous occasions outright hostilitiy directed at travellers in shops and bars without anything to cause the hostility by that traveller.
8. In one instance where she was chatting with a traveller who was well dressed (she has an office job) recieved hostility after the barman realised she was a traveller from thier conversations at the bar and both were told to leave.
9. I asked about BMWs/4WD. Yes there are actually travellers who make good money from legal businesses. However not all have BMWs, etc.
10. She pointed out that most people assume badly dressed/smelly = Traveller and that those that have average jobs you wouldn't be able to distingush between settled people. She also pointed out there are even some Travellers who have jobs as Irish models.

2- A bus eireann between Navan and Dublin.

How do you know they were travellers? did you ask them what halting site they lived at?

4- When my mother politely refused to buy some religious crap he was selling a drunk old traveller told her to fcuk off and burn.

Sounds like a normal Chugger response tbh.

billy the squid

Seven? Seeing as we are so big on sources, wheres yours? Why is it unacceptable for me to quote info I read somewhere 6 months ago, but the 7 Gardai comes from nowhere?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgcwS7-GSs8Kw.asp

But he said since the start of the recruitment campaign, seven Travellers had applied to join the force.

in the last paragraph

What I do know is that there is only one member of the travelling community serving with the Gardai. So of all the Gardai between, what, 21 and 55-60 odd, only one is a traveller, yet in the last year 7 more decided to join, presumably despite none having applied successfully in the time this one guy has been on the force?

seven have applied since this new drive to hire minorities.

As for the shootings, isnt one of the Limerick feuding families partially of traveller descent? The Dundons was it? How many violent gangland incidents in Dublin take place at funerals? And actually there was a traveller shot and severely wounded near Raheny this week. There is currently an ongoing feud between travellers in Coolock iirc where guns have been used. As for the amount, there have been a handful of travellers shot dead in Dublin in recent years.

Your answer has nothing to do with the question. there is indeed crime in the travelling community. as there is in the settled community. but it does not prove that the majority of travellers are criminals. that being my point.

As for the arrest, it was in the paper, I believe it was that Martin Collins guy? At the time of the road block protests (when they notoriously carved "OPEN RAODS" (sic) into a local golf course )

I am awaiting the link.

Re marriage, nothing really, but Monument appeared to insinuitate that the practice of in-family marriage was an untrue stereotype.

well I will leave that one between you and him

As for the cars, bought on finance? How many banks are willing to lend money to people who have no fixed abode/constantly move address and, generally speaking, dont own property?

the ones who work. and when they are at a halting site, they have an address.

The problem is basically this- the majority of contact settled have with travellers is hostile. This year I have had three contacts with people who were clearly travellers (and dont ask "what makes you think they were", thats like asking a countryman why he thought somebody was from north Dublin)

personally I wouldnt be able to tell the difference between someone from north dublin or south dublin if i were to meet them. but hows and ever

have you considered that there are travellers out there that you have not had contact with?

and now for the anecdote....

1- Oxegen. A traveller conned me and the bird out of a ttal of 70 euro when we were severely drunk

2- A bus eireann between Navan and Dublin. Found myself 3 per seat with a traveller couple and their young child. They spent five minutes haggling the fair with the driver, claiming they had free travel passes that theyd left at home. They eventually paid, sat beside me. I was going to a job interview and so was wearing my good shirt (id been down in Navan seein a mate that morning). The pair of them STANK, sweat and stale milk, and they let their daughter nearly spill her bottle over my trousers, and me on the way to an interview. Kids are kids, so have the cop on to control them

3- McDonalds, Blanch Centre. Im in line, waiting to be served, a traveller infront accidently steps on my toe and looks around, says nothing. I simply say "dont worry bout it". He stares for 20 seconds before finally asking my name. I says it. Still gives funny look, then asks what I do. Tell him Im in college and have two jobs, as I do. He repeats this info to the wife in an aggressive tone, to which she replies "Martin for **** sake woulda ya leave it"....."Ah would ya **** off Mary Im only talkin to the young lad". By this stage Ive my fist clenched and ready for it to kick off, I dont give a sh1te Ida killed him there and then if he was to make a move, which it looked like he might. Eventually he calmed his tone and actually talked normal. It was defused, but the fact is the guy was insane.

4- When my mother politely refused to buy some religious crap he was selling a drunk old traveller told her to fcuk off and burn.

Now, in one year I had 4 incidents with 0.7% of the population. A fifth incident was my mates fault, he was so drunk he jumped on the back of some traveller he didnt know. Your man was annoyed and I told my mate to buy him a drink, as in fairness he had disrespected him, and it was all over then

oh despite the fact that you stated earlier that all your contact with travellers was negative, there was one where the "acting the prick" was coming from a settled person against a traveller. a traveller who was minding his own business.

anecdote

edit- fair enough, but if its your point, you find the link http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:ZlKYx0BL1uEJ:www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgcwS7-GSs8Kw.asp+gardai+travelling+community+seven&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Tha Gopher

Hobbes wrote:

10. She pointed out that most people assume badly dressed/smelly = Traveller and that those that have average jobs you wouldn't be able to distingush between settled people. She also pointed out there are even some Travellers who have jobs as Irish models.

How do you know they were travellers? did you ask them what halting site they lived at?

LOL:D

Models eh? And she just so happened not to bother mentioning any names?

As for how did I know, its called an education in the university of life mate. In the same way you can tell a Nigerian from a Somali even though they are both black, you can tell a settled from a traveller. Maybe the fact the traveller woman on the bus shouted something about racism might be a giveaway?

Pal, if you cant back up your arguements further, please dont resort to making up the points you want to press. If you think theyre all grand fair enough, maybe in some parts of the country they do fit in quite well (the only person i heard who had anything decent to say re them was from Roscommon, she said they caused relatively little trouble. Maybe in some parts they are a grand bunch, but ask anyone in Finglas, Blanchardstown, Dunsink and Cavan and you will get a different answer.)


EDIT- Link is in the last post Billy. Satisfied now? And highlighting traveller involvement in gangland WAS relevant, seeing as you seemed to insinuiate it was very minimal.

As for me adding the 5th incident, i actually thought maybe id deserve credit for that? For admitting that of my 5 proper contacts with travellers, one was admittedly the fault of a sttled person? Cant please some I suppose.

But heres a question- if you only met five black people this year, and four of them conned, threatened or were rude and menacing to you, would you think "fcuk it, send them all home"?

Hobbes

Tha Gopher wrote:

btw, I shouldnt even have bothered, but heres our mate Collins getting arrested at Dunsink

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2004/10/09/story959797952.asp

"The garda action came after a night of tension, during which gangs of youths stoned passing motorists. A number of cars and an excavator as well as a building at Dunsink Observatory were set on fire"

I love the way you have done it there.

You are basically inferring that he is part of what happend. When you actually read the story through you will find he was arrested at a peaceful sit down protest.

Now Im not saying that settled kids dont drop rocks off motorway flyovers, they sometimes do,

I don't see any mention in that story that it was traveller children throwing those rocks. Do you have anything to back that up?

Hobbes

Tha Gopher wrote:

LOL:D

Models eh? And she just so happened not to bother mentioning any names?

No she didn't and it was just general chatter.

Pal, if you cant back up your arguements further, please dont resort to making up the points you want to press.

Ahh ok, only I have been backing up my arguments while everyone else has been using ancedotes. The second I use an ancedote I am accused of lying? Yet the anti-camp are adament that ancedotes = evidence.

:rolleyes:

As for people who live near a halting site? I do, we have never had any trouble in our area from Travellers. The only reason I even knew there was a halting site is because one of thier kids got run over recently by a hit and run asshole.

Tha Gopher

Yes Hobbes, young Finglas kids were inside the halt throwing rocks at passing cars to frame the traveller kids, they even ran up to journalists and put on traveller accents to reinforce it. Conspiracy I tell you.

If you actually read it, it sounds like he was arrested whilst blocking enterence to the Little Chef. "they blocked our roads, lets block access to some business which has nothing to do with this and make them lose money". Nearly as bad as when they moved into the Belfast industrial estate and demanded the businesses pay them to move (find the link yourself, i cant be bothered)

Hobbes, your argument is going nowhere. If I was on your side Id be embarrased by the fact you are making up stories to back up the arguement. This was an interesting thread, the gameplan now appears to be to provoke the antis into saying something that will get the thread locked.

Hobbes

Tha Gopher wrote:

Yes Hobbes, young Finglas kids were inside the halt throwing rocks at passing cars to frame the traveller kids, they even ran up to journalists and put on traveller accents to reinforce it. Conspiracy I tell you.

Again you have nothing to back this up. No where in the story does it say that the stoning took place from within the halting site.

If you actually read it,

I did read it. It was a peaceful sitdown protest he was arrested at. Yes they were illegally blocking an area however your earlier comments was trying to imply that he was arrested for rioting.

If I was on your side Id be embarrased by the fact you are making up stories to back up the arguement.

LOL.. making up stories... riiiight. I am lying but everyone else with a story isn't? I also don't appreciate being called a liar.

I live just off the N32 btw, where the kid was killed.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/12/19/story235713.html

Prior to that happen I didnt even realise there was a halting site, I also wasn't aware there were 120 traveller families there either. I thought the halting site was where the Camalot used to be and they had been moved on years ago.

[edit]
The program she belonged to was the "Community mothers programme" which dealt with first time mothers. She was also on TV in a documentry on it and if you want I can put you in contact with her if you think I or her are lying.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9229060&dopt=Abstract

Litcagral

Tha Gopher wrote:

billy the squid wrote:

What I do know is that there is only one member of the travelling community serving with the Gardai. So of all the Gardai between, what, 21 and 55-60 odd, only one is a traveller, yet in the last year 7 more decided to join, presumably despite none having applied successfully in the time this one guy has been on the force? QUOTE]




There are two members of the travelling community in the Gardai. One is currently on maternity leave.

OMcGovern

monument wrote:

"the travellers", the whole lot of them, attacked you?

If a snake bites you, does that mean that it's in a minority, and I should trust all the other snakes. What about Millwall supporters..... should I be able to wander into the Millway supporters local pub in England, safe in the knowledge that "there may just be a minority of them who'll beat me into an intensive care unit" ?

Since we can't tell the good from the bad ones, we're not willing to take the chance. Once bitten, twice shy. I've been "bitten" twice.
They're too violent to ignore as a potential threat.

And by the way, previously one of ye doubters asked for a link about the traveller who knocked down a kid in Tallaght, and the travellers totally intimidated the parents by parking outside their house before the case.
The girl was left paralysed, and the parents were forced to move out of Tallaght. The parents were in bits on the Late Late Show, or Kenny live... appealing to absolutely anyone for help since the Guards done nothing....
It sickens me.

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2003/06/18/story679888088.asp

Freelancer

the gopher wrote:

As for how did I know, its called an education in the university of life mate.

Anything prefixed with the above "education at the university of life" is going to be an unmitigiated torrent of shíte.

I think it's hilarious that you can lecture hobbes about how in addition to facts and statisitics, he uses ancedotes, for you to then call him a liar, while your entire post consists entirely of ancedotes.

EDIT- Link is in the last post Billy. Satisfied now? And highlighting traveller involvement in gangland WAS relevant, seeing as you seemed to insinuiate it was very minimal.

Why is it revelant, you've said that they were of traveller descent but are settled now. Are you suggesting that travellers are what? Genetical inferior and more prone to violence? Because thats the implication.

Freelancer

OMcGovern wrote:

If a snake bites you, does that mean that it's in a minority, and I should trust all the other snakes. What about Millwall supporters..... should I be able to wander into the Millway supporters local pub in England, safe in the knowledge that "there may just be a minority of them who'll beat me into an intensive care unit" ?

Thats fantastically specious reasoning

1) The majority of snakes aren't poisonious and whats more most of the poisonious ones will only attack when threatened

2) You're infering that all travellers or all footballer supporters are the same tribe. A better analogy would be if you said you were beaten up by a bunch of Millwall supporters, I should not trust anyone wearing a football jersey?

Because football supporters come in all kinds of shapes and sizes and mentalities as do travellers, taring all supporters because of the behaviour of one group is unfair and unjustice.

Which hey is what you are doing to travellers.

Since we can't tell the good from the bad ones, we're not willing to take the chance. Once bitten, twice shy. I've been "bitten" twice.
They're too violent to ignore as a potential threat.

I'm sorry we can't what from the what. Leaving aside the League of Gentlemen mentality here. Would you consider it acceptable if someone said that he'd been mugged by two black fellas therefore the lot of em can't be trusted?

"They're" too violent. :rolleyes: The casual way bigotry is thrown around on this thread

The parents were in bits on the Late Late Show, or Kenny live... appealing to absolutely anyone for help since the Guards done nothing....
It sickens me.

It also sickens Damien Peelo of the tallaght traveller community according to the article.

What do you want people to say that this is acceptable? Its not. But it's also not acceptable to darkly suggest "they're all too violent" because of the behaviour of a few.

boardy

Regarding education (or lack thereof), which may be the root of the problem:

From the Irish Independent today
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1535268&issue_id=13493

There are 33 centres around the country which teach a variety of academic and practical subjects to Travellers aged over 15.

Around two-thirds of Travellers had left school by the age of 15, according to figures released in 2002.

"It's absolutely a crying shame to see Traveller boys and girls at 15 or 16 who are doing quite well in secondary school, whereby the parents take them out and send them to the training centres for no other reason other than that there's a bloody allowance in it at the end of the week," Mr Collins stated.

Mr. Collins is assistant director of Pavee Point.

deisedevil

OMcGovern wrote:

If a snake bites you, does that mean that it's in a minority, and I should trust all the other snakes. What about Millwall supporters..... should I be able to wander into the Millway supporters local pub in England, safe in the knowledge that "there may just be a minority of them who'll beat me into an intensive care unit" ?

Since we can't tell the good from the bad ones, we're not willing to take the chance. Once bitten, twice shy. I've been "bitten" twice.
They're too violent to ignore as a potential threat.

And by the way, previously one of ye doubters asked for a link about the traveller who knocked down a kid in Tallaght, and the travellers totally intimidated the parents by parking outside their house before the case.
The girl was left paralysed, and the parents were forced to move out of Tallaght. The parents were in bits on the Late Late Show, or Kenny live... appealing to absolutely anyone for help since the Guards done nothing....
It sickens me.

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2003/06/18/story679888088.asp

Well said. Same here, i have been robbed twice by travellers,once a bike stolen, had a settled traveller and others beat me up for no reason, had a traveller punch me for no reason(found out after he was going around town all day walking up to people punching them and just walking off and after a few weeks of doing it was arrested and nothing more done about it) i have countless friends who have had bikes stolen,i had to go to the halting site myself to get my friends brothers bike back,was lucky they were all asleep! i have so many friends who were beaten up by travellers for no reason,they used to send a small fella up to someone and he'd hit you and try and get a reaction,if you reacted a gang would attack you. I have neighbours who had their oil robbed, a gang of travellers who had set up for a few weeks up the road from the halting site(which wasn't full) were seen with loads of drums of oil behind caravans,the gardai went out and they had all buggered off. I have seen people i know getting stabbed by travellers and was threatened with a knife myself. I worked in a supermarket and out of all that ever came in there was no one who done as much robbing than travellers, i witnessed it and there's no point in anyone telling me i got it wrong. One day a traveller came in and filled a whole trolley with steaks,hams,drink, basically the dearest stuff he could get and ran out the door with it, he had a few more in the hiace outside who helped him lift the whole lot in and they took off,never caught. The amount of tricks and clever ways they had for robbing was just unbelievable, i could nearly write a book on it, to watch them in action on the camera's was gas, some say most travellers aren't well educated but they certainly are in the art of thieving. the halting site in my area was built and looked absolutely amazing, a week from when they moved in it looked like beirut, they had robbed all the tiles, destroyed all the buildings, thrown rubbish everywhere even though bins were provided and they burnt everything they didn't want. Every year a huge gathering of travellers used to come from all over Ireland and England and gather together in the town duringthe summer. They terrorised the whole town, guns going off every night, people living near there who were mostly elderly had to move out while they were there. cars and houses in the local area were destroyed, pubs had huge problems with them and when they moved on there was a huge clean up operation by the council which took a few days to complete.

That's only a small number of the things i have experienced with the travelling community. Almost all of the travellers that have lived for some time in my area i have witnessed commiting crime and have seen most of who stayed for a while doing the same. Has anyone else had similar? If so i'd like to see how much damage they have caused all over the country because from what i have heard from people from all over and from what i have witnessed in other counties it doesn't differ much.

Freelancer

deisedevil wrote:

That's only a small number of the things i have experienced with the travelling community. Almost all of the travellers that have lived for some time in my area i have witnessed commiting crime and have seen most of who stayed for a while doing the same. Has anyone else had similar? If so i'd like to see how much damage they have caused all over the country because from what i have heard from people from all over and from what i have witnessed in other counties it doesn't differ much.

Blah f*cking Blah, ignore the well written rebuttal of your last points and come out with the profound list of slights and wrong doings you endure........

Here a trick, say you got mugged in Darndale, and you said I got mugged in Darndale, and ask does anyone else have experience of the same and a few more come out and say "Yeah I got mugged there" "My mate got hopped on" etc etc what do you get? A Disportionate distorted view of the situation and people of Darndale.

People remember the bad ****. You could pass by a dozen halting sites on your way to work and a dozen traveller families, but you'll only remember the one rotten one.

Coming here and asking people to come forward to confirm your prejudices, and then announcing that you are vindicated, while people like the gopher call anyone who has a positive story, a liar. Well done. Nice little circle of hate you're building here.

Litcagral

deisedevil wrote:

Almost all of the travellers that have lived for some time in my area i have witnessed commiting crime and have seen most of who stayed for a while doing the same. Has anyone else had similar? If so i'd like to see how much damage they have caused all over the country because from what i have heard from people from all over and from what i have witnessed in other counties it doesn't differ much.

There are two traveller unofficail halting sites in my area. I don't ever remember hearing about any trouble from them. I can't say that there is never any trouble - I'm just not aware of any. The sites are kept quite well and have plants and flowers in abundance.I can recall only once seeing a Garda car entering these sites - that could have been for a routine matter. I can only once recall possible travellers (they may have been settled people) calling at my door and that was to sell and fit cowls for chimneys. (I already had one). There are no horses or scrapped cars around, just several old cars and vans which are in daily use.

Sam Vimes

Davei141 wrote:

Most of the others have given personal experiences while hobbes has given websites. And if it bothers you so much feel free to answer it aswell.

there of course are no websites giving figures of how many crimes are commited by travellers or how many incidences of anti-social behaviour are commited by them, that just wouldn't be allowed. their crimes are generally not recorded officially and there is no chance that they would be singled out on a website that anyone could link to to prove they're scum.

there is no record of 99.9999% of anti-social behaviour by travellers except from the people who tell the story so maybe i should set up a website where people post about the kind of experience they've had with them so we can see their non-official impact. oh wait, such a website already exists.

how bout this: there are 100,000 polish people in Ireland and while i'm sure some of them have commited crimes, neither i nor anyone i know has been a vitctim of one. on the other hand, there are 27,000* travellers in ireland and i could pick any random person on o'connell street and the chances are they've had a bad experience with them


*i'm getting that figure from this thread, i don't know how true it is

OMcGovern

Freelancer wrote:

1) The majority of snakes aren't poisonious and whats more most of the poisonious ones will only attack when threatened

2) You're infering that all travellers or all footballer supporters are the same tribe. A better analogy would be if you said you were beaten up by a bunch of Millwall supporters, I should not trust anyone wearing a football jersey?

Because football supporters come in all kinds of shapes and sizes and mentalities as do travellers, taring all supporters because of the behaviour of one group is unfair and unjustice.

"They're" too violent. :rolleyes: The casual way bigotry is thrown around on this thread

1. You're right... they're worse than animals, they attack with little or no
provocation.

2. You shouldn't trust them openly, without keeping your guard up.
It's risk vs reward.
It's not worth trusting them.... there's nothing to be gained.

You're welcome to your bleeding heart routine, which the religion has drilled into you. The whole tolerance and forgiveness lark only works when the other party shows some form of remorse or improvement in their behaviour.

Litcagral

Commander Vimes wrote:

there of course are no websites giving figures of how many crimes are commited by travellers or how many incidences of anti-social behaviour are commited by them, that just wouldn't be allowed. their crimes are generally not recorded officially and there is no chance that they would be singled out on a website that anyone could link to to prove they're scum.

Are there websites giving figures of how many crimes are committed by children of single parents, Methodists, black persons, gay persons, persons who live in detached houses etc.?

deisedevil

Freelancer wrote:

Well done. Nice little circle of hate you're building here.

I don't have to build a circle of hate, it's already there and the travellers have only themselves to blame for it, and why, well because of acts exactly like those i have written above. I was told by Hobbes that i could only speak about my own area seeing as i have only witnessed the odd event in other counties so i'm looking to see if others can confirm this problem is widespread.

Hobbes

Commander Vimes wrote:

there of course are no websites giving figures of how many crimes are commited by travellers

Actually if you bothered to get off your ass you might find something on the Gardai website/CSO website. Of course your making the asseration so its up to you to do the work.

The parents were in bits on the Late Late Show, or Kenny live... appealing to absolutely anyone for help since the Guards done nothing....
It sickens me.

I had forgotten about comment further back. I believe asked for more details yet magically none were given. Strange that something that was on Late Late and Kenny they can't give me something to go read up on.

deisedevil

Hobbes wrote:

Actually if you bothered to get off your ass you might find something on the Gardai website/CSO website. Of course your making the asseration so its up to you to do the work.



I had forgotten about comment further back. I believe asked for more details yet magically none were given. Strange that something that was on Late Late and Kenny they can't give me something to go read up on.

Well i bothered to get off my ass a long time again and on the garda crime statistics site there is nowhere that you can see how much crime one specific group has committed like the travelling community. Checked again just now and that's still the case.

Also you were given something to read further back up on the issue that was on the late late. I read it anyways, maybe you didn't see it?

Hobbes

Freelancer wrote:

It also sickens Damien Peelo of the tallaght traveller community according to the article.

Thanks for the name reference made for further intresting reading.

http://travellers.ennis.ie/news/national.html

Ooh look it even mentions a Traveller as a member of the county council.

Hobbes

deisedevil wrote:

Well i bothered to get off my ass a long time again and on the garda crime statistics site there is nowhere that you can see how much crime one specific group has committed like the travelling community. Checked again just now and that's still the case.

Your just not trying hard enough. Let me see what I can dig out.

I read it anyways, maybe you didn't see it?

No I didn't I'll have a wander back.

Are there websites giving figures of how many crimes are committed by children of single parents, Methodists, black persons, gay persons, persons who live in detached houses etc.?

www.cso.ie

Sam Vimes

Hobbes wrote:

Actually if you bothered to get off your ass you might find something on the Gardai website/CSO website. Of course your making the asseration so its up to you to do the work.

first of all thanks for the ignorant post. and actually, while looking at websites, i like to sit in a chair, so i'll stay on my ass thank you very much.

as Litcagral says, there are no websites breaking crimes down into ones committed by single parents or people in detatched houses or gay people so the chances of there being one for crimes committed by travellers are almost nil, i.e. not good enough to trawl the internet for hours to prove a random name on a website wrong

deisedevil

Hobbes wrote:

Your just not trying hard enough. Let me see what I can dig out.

http://www.garda.ie/angarda/statistics/report2004/stats2004.pdf

There's the crime statistic report for 2004. Unfortuneatly they don't show how many committed crimes in specific groups like ethnic groups.

monument

Tha Gopher wrote:

Monument, be quiet. Its a known fact that many travellers marry close or distant relations, a practice almost unheard of in the settled community for many, many generations. Grow up.

Ok, that’s nice and all. So when do a group of people who procreate in isolate circles become a race? Decades, centuries?

OMcGovern wrote:

If a snake bites you, does that mean that it's in a minority, and I should trust all the other snakes. What about Millwall supporters..... should I be able to wander into the Millway supporters local pub in England, safe in the knowledge that "there may just be a minority of them who'll beat me into an intensive care unit" ?

Since we can't tell the good from the bad ones, we're not willing to take the chance. Once bitten, twice shy. I've been "bitten" twice.
They're too violent to ignore as a potential threat.

That could be applied to people from Eastern Europe, people with dark coloured skin, it could even be applied to people from rich areas of Ireland, you could argue rich people are all dangerous bastards because they can pay lawyers to clear them of any wrongdoings they’ve done.

What about amoral people? What does a amoral psychopath* look like?


* = Not just any crazy person, I’m talking about – “SPECIALIZED in psychology, a person who has no feeling for other people, does not think about the future and does not feel bad about anything they have done in the past http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=63884&dict=CALD”

Giblet

Hi. Anyone who makes any stupid jokes again will be banned.