travellers in flash cars??

Tha Gopher

Hobbes, do you watch Law and Order?

There is an episode where a teacher, who is suspected of murdering a young female student, is busted with his pants down in a hotel room with a half naked 15 year old student. His lawyer is attempting to get the charge dropped before it has even been made

Cop "We caught your client in a hotel room with a half naked 15 year old student"
Lawyer "And until you can prove that what they were doing was no more than legitimate school related activity you have no case":rolleyes:
Cop (stares in utter disbelief at this nonsense)

The scene rather reminds me of your claims that it is possible the Finglas rock throwers were not Travellers. Its alot like the winner of the X Factor in the UK. His dad is called Ward. His mother is a Joyce. His dad is in jail for rape. His mother was arrested in a bar brawl a few weeks back. His uncles (one called Ward, the other Joyce) were convicted of murdering a scrapyard manager in a robbery.
Now the article never specifically mentioned the word traveller, I think it was worded that this Shayne chap was from "a large Irish extended family". I like the way that despite the fact his parents are Ward and Joyce, and despite the fact his uncles have served time for murder during a scrapyard robbery (of all places), that if I said that the guy is of Traveller descent you would say "prove it, nowhere in that article isthe word traveller mentioned"

Lads, your arguement is finished and becoming more desperate. I say one thing, you demand a link, I provide it and prove my point. Billy claims that travellers are barely involved in organised crime: I disprove this by stating (from info Ive read in books and newspaper reports from way back) that travellers are disproportionately involved in organised crime, including heroin smuggling, control of the ecstasy trade in the North East/West, and I think I now recall it was the McCarthys, part of the McCarthy Dundon crime family in Limerick, that were traveller descended. Only late in 2004/early 2005 a huge haul of ecstasy was found at a halt here in Blanch. Whilst the Dublin gangs often regard e as having too small a profit turnover (why sell pills for a fiver a pop that keep people high for a few hours when they can move 70 euro bags that people need to top up again on within minutes), the traveller clans are still involved, primarily because they already have contacts in the Benelux thanks to cigarette smuggling who can sort them for pills.

I mean, good god Hobbes, if even an apologist like Martin Collins can admit that some Traveller families are wasters for taking their kids out of school to get more benefits from these FAS courses, it really does say it all.The fact is that hard working Irish people like me are sick to our back teeth of these largely unemployed people with very large families creaming off our tax money. I typically work 7 days most weeks, on average I get about 2 days off per month. I do not want my money going to fund cultural projects or arts funds or whatever the hell schemes they have for travellers these days. The travellers are basically like the homeless- a few are decent, they cant help their situation, but the majority are aggressive, unemployed and deserve what they get.

A final question Hobbes- do you really think its possible that, lets say, 20% of travellers are utter scum and the rest are alright, and that the four I encountered this year represented that group and therefore I just suffered bad luck? That if I had run into a further 16 travellers this year I would have regarded them as a grand bunch?
Please, do answer that.

Litcagral- regarding your question, yes, there are sites showing figures commited by black, Methodists, gays and children of single parents. In the UK and US ethnic data collection re crime is conducted by the justice department/home office. Ireland doesnt show race specifically afaik, figures are available however showing the country of birth of inmates in Irish prisons. Id imagine in N.I crime stats by religion are available, so if you want to find out what those bad muthafcukin Methdists have been up to gwan ahead. Gays and kids from single parent families, they wouldnt be government stats, but Im sure there studies done using sample groups of suspects to ascertain this info.

Hobbes

Litcagral says, there are no websites breaking crimes down into ones committed...by travellers are almost nil, i.e. not good enough to trawl the internet for hours to prove a random name on a website wrong

Ahh ok so not worth the time to prove your point you mean. Isn't ignorance great.

Traveller population makes up 0.6% of Irelands population (reference CSO) and is increasing while at the same time crime in Ireland is decreasing (we won't assume a corrolation).

This site here lists stats for headline crimes.
http://www.movetoireland.com/movepag/misccrim.htm

Take a note of the places with the lowest crime stats.

Roscommon/Galway East - 8.27
Roscommon has a transient halting site. (Carrowbone)
Incidently this site sits between a legal dumping site and a main road. Settled People have been routinely caught dumping crap at the travellers area to stop paying for dumping at the main site. (ref: Irishhealth.com)


Donegal - 8.4
7 Sites, 2 of which are transient (ref: donegal.ie)

Until April this year there was a halting site in Ballintra.
There is current contention here as Donegal have laws that forbid travellers to halt there and don't offer enough sites to stop at.

Oddly enough despite many protests over this all this year the crime rate is very low.

Clare - 8.4
8 Halting sites of 2000 and two more being created this year (ref: travellers.ennis.ie)

Mayo - 8.77
42% of all travellers have been housed here. (ref: tcm.ie). (so would be around 11,300 travellers there).

Cork West - 8.93
Only found these (ref: corkcity.ie)
Carrigrohane Road – 12 bay
• Hollyhill/Knocknaheeny – 12 bay
• Mahon – 12 bay
• Spring Lane, Ballyvolane – 10 bay

Doesn't mention if they are cork west. 70% of travellers surveyed complained about the lack of resources in the places they had been put.

Cavan-Monaghan - 8.95
Caven have 18 halting sites. (18 familys) (ref: cavancoco.ie)

Monaghan has 54 families living there. 42 are housed, the remaining are at halting sites at Largy, Clones and Gortakeegan, Monaghan. The site in Clones is full and there are two vacant bays on the Monaghan site.

...

So it is a bit odd that the "majority are criminals" yet the majority live in the lowest crime areas in Ireland.

Are we to magically believe that Setted people do not in anyway commit crimes?

Now if it was only travellers in that areas causing the crimes you can bet as hell that it would be documented, especially considering the media is very anti-traveller as well (ref: Civil Rights Ireland).

Ok your turn.. lets see what you can dig up.

Hobbes

Tha Gopher wrote:

Hobbes, do you watch Law and Order?

Oh see as an example you pick a fictional program. :rolleyes:

The scene rather reminds me of your claims that it is possible the Finglas rock throwers were not Travellers.

No. I am saying the news report you posted nowhere says that the rock throwers were travellers, nor does it say that they were doing it inside a halting site.

You made that accusation, not me, not the news story.

Now you may actually be correct but your going to have to try a bit harder looking up your facts instead of jumping to conclusions.

Lads, your arguement is finished and becoming more desperate.

You have yet to put forward anything valid except whining and name calling.

I mean, good god Hobbes, if even an apologist like Martin Collins can admit that some Traveller families are wasters

Notice you said "Some", not "The majority". Last time I checked they don't mean the same thing. I mean there are criminal scum in Dublin, does that mean all Dubliners are scum? That is the fallacy you are making.

A final question Hobbes

Previous post I cross reference traveller sites/population with crime areas. The majority of travellers live in low crime rate areas.

Freelancer

OMcGovern wrote:

1. You're right... they're worse than animals, they attack with little or no
provocation.

Rancid racism and bigotry.

Tell me is Francis Barrett an animal? Or were you pleased when he won for us at the oylmpics. Representing a country where his countrymen view him as less than an animal, I guess thats how black olympians felt in Munich during the 1934 olympics.

2. You shouldn't trust them openly, without keeping your guard up.
It's risk vs reward.
It's not worth trusting them.... there's nothing to be gained.

Really nothing? Gosh then I must have imagined the feeling of gratification I got doing that creative writing course with a traveller community.

You're welcome to your bleeding heart routine, which the religion has drilled into you. The whole tolerance and forgiveness lark only works when the other party shows some form of remorse or improvement in their behaviour.

And seeing as you see them all as animals and not worth trustings I can totally see this situation improving.

Freelancer

deisedevil wrote:

I don't have to build a circle of hate, it's already there and the travellers have only themselves to blame for it, and why, well because of acts exactly like those i have written above. I was told by Hobbes that i could only speak about my own area seeing as i have only witnessed the odd event in other counties so i'm looking to see if others can confirm this problem is widespread.

While ignoring or denying that the situation could be different elsewhere, try approaching it with an open mind listening to the postive as well as the negativ......

Freelancer

gopher wrote:

Lads, your arguement is finished and becoming more desperate. I say one thing, you demand a link, I provide it and prove my point. Billy claims that travellers are barely involved in organised crime: I disprove this by stating (from info Ive read in books and newspaper reports from way back)

No you claim it you've not disproved it. Link to the articles, name the books, offer some evidence not just claim," I'm right cause er yeah I read it in a book or something".

that travellers are disproportionately involved in organised crime, including heroin smuggling, control of the ecstasy trade in the North East/West, and I think I now recall it was the McCarthys, part of the McCarthy Dundon crime family in Limerick, that were traveller descended.

Okay so again. You say traveller descended. Not actually traveller anymore. Therefore their actions cannot be a black mark aganist the current traveller community.

What exactly are you suggesting, that travellers are genetically more likely to commit crime?

Only late in 2004/early 2005 a huge haul of ecstasy was found at a halt here in Blanch. Whilst the Dublin gangs often regard e as having too small a profit turnover (why sell pills for a fiver a pop that keep people high for a few hours when they can move 70 euro bags that people need to top up again on within minutes), the traveller clans are still involved, primarily because they already have contacts in the Benelux thanks to cigarette smuggling who can sort them for pills.

Facts? Links? Evidence? The name and authors of these "books" you're reading?

deisedevil

Freelancer wrote:

While ignoring or denying that the situation could be different elsewhere, try approaching it with an open mind listening to the postive as well as the negativ......

F-all positives there tbh. Try looking at it this way, how do travellers contribute to our society, there's very few of them paying tax etc. And on your creative writing course with the traveller was that volunteer work, i hope so because i'd hate to see my hard earned, legally earned tax money being spent on teaching a traveller creative writing so he can go out and go creatively forging cheques.:D

Tha Gopher

LOL Deisedevil Keep that type of humour down though, the thread will be locked, depriving me of any further opportunity to show Hobbes as the PC idiot he is.


For a start Hobbes, Cavan doesnt have 18 halting sites, it has one. Get your facts straight (Id know Cavan well, it has one halt wth maybe 18 houses last time I looked, it is undoubtedly one of the dirtiest halts Ive seen in this country). Ask the security guards in the Tesco down the hill from it what these lovely folks are like. They spend much of their day hanging around the car park causing nuisance, abusing people who refuse to pay them for washing their cars or not buying whatever tat theyre selling. Ask anyone from Cavan do they know of the McDonaghs there (drop the name Red Terry and see what reaction you get, I know of one guy who caught him taking a sh1te in his garden once, and he isnt the type of person to make things up. I think Terry moves between Navan and Cavan so Im sure the Meath heads here know of him too ). Alot of Cavan and Blanch travellers are linked via family.

Hobbes, do you actually read full posts? It seems you decided to skip most of mine after the line "do you watch law and order". If you had paid attention, I was merely pointing out you reminded me of a lawyer on the show who came up with an absoloutely ludicrous arguement as to why his client was in a hotel room with a 15 year old girl. You have come up with similiar nonsense to doubt whether the Finglas rock throwers actually were travellers.

Freelancer, so what, the guys family are retired travellers? I thought the big thing for travellers now was to be provided with proper built housing but at the same time preserve their cultural identidy. So what, once a traveller buys/rents a house, hes no longer in the community? And do you also deny that his family are scum?
btw, do travellers actually pay rent for halting site houses?



As for demanding sources, I already told you, the story of the heroin smuggling travellers is in one of the Paul Williams or Paul Reynolds books. The grip on the North Easts drug trade was shown when 8 travellers were arrested in Longford a while back. Get your own link. The McCarthy-Dundon traveller link is, iirc, in the book dealing with the Limerick feud by a journo from there, i think its called Blood Feud?

I notice our Limeick friend here hasnt made any comment re the McCarthys, most probably because, being from Limerick, he knows I am correct.

And Hobbes, re your some vs majority nonsense, I think the fact MOST Travellers are out of school around Jr Cert year at the very latest answers your own question:D

Also, the figures mean that 40% of Travellers WITHIN Mayo are housed, not that 40% of their national population are houses there. 11,000 in Mayo? rofl Your inabillity to even decipher statistics correctly really sums up your entire contribution to this thread.

Also, you quote low crime areas where Travellers live. Fingal, Limerick, Clondalkin/Tallaght, Ballymun, Ballyfermot all high crime areas with lots of halts. Now, most of this crime is by the settled people, but the point is its as if you tried to make out they all live in the best areas crime wise./ For gods sake, you are from Coolock, dont you read the local news? There is a traveller feud going on in your area, and Id like to see how much respect you have for them if you or one of your family is hit by a bullet during the next shoot out.

And you quote West Cork. A Traveller was murdered there last week. Now, Ill admit I dont know the social status of the killer, but can you admit a majority of gypsy murders is Traveller on Traveller?

http://newsfeed.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/story.asp?j=134698058088&p=y34698x5835z&n=134698058380

"A row, it has emerged, broke out within the group. "

It would be good to actually watch the news and see whats happening before claiming the travellers of West Cork pose little trouble.



So Hobbes, to sum up, you try to prove your point with

a- Diversion of blame tactics that even the most Lionel Hutz-like American lawyer would be embarrased to use

b- Most probably false stories about "my mate works with them, grand bunch". You only added in your models bit because you thought nobody would bother asking for a name

c- Statistics that you have either made up or you have been unable to even read correctly (Cavan halt would have roughly 18 homes, Cavan does not have 18 halting sites, unless a single house can count as a site, which I doubt it can). And to think you believed Mayo, which has a population of roundabouts 100,000, had 11,000 travellers? There is a breakdown on Pavee Point iirc of traveller numbers, something like 20-25% are in Dublin.

Fcuk it, here ya go

http://www.paveepoint.ie/fs_distribution_a.html

re these, can someone point out the difference between group housing and a halt? Is group housing a small estate for travellers (Id always just called them halts, as traveller housing is usually distinctive by its design), whereas the halt is a section of the park where people have permission to live permanently in caravans? Is any rent paid for this land by them?

Are you sure you can read those stats without teacher Hobbes? Stats really dont seem to be your thing, which is a rather obvious drawback for someone who fancies himself as an expert on politics/society.

WhiteWashMan

ok, im fed up of this thread now.

you lot can p1ss and moan all day and swap opinions and score petty points off each other, but im fed up of the amount of reported posts this is getting.
so its over to humanities where amp can rule you all with a rod of iron (ooo-er)

monument

Tha Gopher wrote:

I mean, good god Hobbes, if even an apologist like Martin Collins can admit that some Traveller families are wasters

Tha Gopher wrote:

lets say, 20% of travellers are utter scum

'Some' or '20%' - so is it or is it not the majorty?

Tha Gopher wrote:

people like me are sick to our back teeth of these largely unemployed people with very large families creaming off our tax money.

And you don't think there's about the same percentage of settled people doing the same? Which would add up to more actual people?

OMcGovern

OMcGovern wrote:

The parents were in bits on the Late Late Show, or Kenny live... appealing to absolutely anyone for help since the Guards done nothing....
It sickens me.

Hobbes wrote:

I had forgotten about comment further back. I believe asked for more details yet magically none were given. Strange that something that was on Late Late and Kenny they can't give me something to go read up on.

I've already supplied you with the weblink to this article on the previous page 12. Here it is again....
Try finding some one line of text within that article to support your case.
The knackers were still fighting while the 5 year old girl was pinned against the wall.

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2003/06/18/story679888088.asp

OMcGovern

monument wrote:

'Some' or '20%' - so is it or is it not the majorty?

And you don't think there's about the same percentage of settled people doing the same? Which would add up to more actual people?

It's the violence and aggression and lawlessness that is repulsive, not unemployment.

Tha Gopher

OMcGovern- please refrain from using the p, k and t words. Not that I object, but it will result in thread closure, which seeing as these idiots have dug themselves into such a great hole would be the ideal solution for them. Keep it civil- talk your facts, either from the media or from your own life experience (something half the bubble boys in this thread are lacking)

If the thread is closed, Hobbes wouldnt have to admit he cant read statistics:)

Jesus OP, just read your link (id skipped much of the early parts of this thread), i remember the parents on the late late. Absoloutely fcuking disgraceful, I actually wish I handt clicked what with the description of the poor kids injuries. That was 03, anyone know how it turned out in the end? Did she definitely become infertile, is she walking again?
Wish the poor kid the very best, and can only hope advances in medical science can treat the infertillity, for depriving that little girl of the chance to have kids the law should have done the same and locked up the driver for life no parole.

monument

Tha Gopher wrote:

So Hobbes, to sum up, you try to prove your point with

Oh! It's my turn to guess now... Gopher is trying to prove his point by not replying to my posts.

Hobbes

Tha Gopher wrote:

LOL Deisedevil Keep that type of humour down though, the thread will be locked, depriving me of any further opportunity to show Hobbes as the PC idiot he is.

You might want to refrain from name calling as well or you risk being banned. You have already called me a liar and now you are calling me an idiot. I've let it slide till now.

For a start Hobbes, Cavan doesnt have 18 halting sites, it has one.

http://www.cavancoco.ie/cccws/publish/general/documents/Traveller_Accommodation_Programme_2000_2004.pdf

Actually I hadn't read down the whole report. Your correct there is one with 18 sites on it. I'll give you that.

It seems you decided to skip most of mine after the line "do you watch law and order".

I tend to ignore comparisons of fictional shows to real life.

Especially a tv show that has no bearing with a story. As pointed out I did not deny it may of happened, I am saying no where in that story does it say that Travellers were throwing stones at traffic and as I will say again you were using the story to infer that the guy was part of the rioting.

btw, do travellers actually pay rent for halting site houses?

http://www.nccri.ie/pdf/traveller-myths.pdf

Yes they do. Its an intresting read.

5 second google will even get you prices.

I notice our Limeick friend here hasnt made any comment re the McCarthys, most probably because, being from Limerick, he knows I am correct.

Ok so one family is reflective of a whole ethinic group?

And Hobbes, re your some vs majority nonsense, I think the fact MOST Travellers are out of school around Jr Cert year at the very latest answers your own question:D

So being uneducated = Criminal?

Your inabillity to even decipher statistics correctly really sums up your entire contribution to this thread.

Fair enough. You go get the statistics then?

For gods sake, you are from Coolock, dont you read the local news? There is a traveller feud going on in your area, and Id like to see how much respect you have for them if you or one of your family is hit by a bullet during the next shoot out.

Strange, have seen nothing of it and there are 120 families living just down the road. You would think with all them being so terrible that it would be a bit more noticable.

but can you admit a majority of gypsy murders is Traveller on Traveller?

Sure, when you show where you got that statistic from.

happening before claiming the travellers of West Cork pose little trouble.

Actually I just listed what halting sites were in Cork. I'll leave it up to a Cork local to point out which ones are in the west part.

b- Most probably false stories about "my mate works with them, grand bunch". You only added in your models bit because you thought nobody would bother asking for a name

*shrug* again you are calling me a liar yet we are supposed to believe everyone elses story.

http://www.paveepoint.ie/fs_distribution_a.html

There see, that didn't hurt did it. Thats more of what I am looking for. Just as a matter of interest have you tried cross referencing that with crime rates from the earlier PDF supplied?

Are you sure you can read those stats without teacher Hobbes?

Again with the personal attacks. I admit I misread those as I just grabbed them quickly because some where not bothering to look up thier own assertions.

Btw 20% does not mean majority.

Omcgovern wrote:

I've already supplied you with the weblink to this article on the previous page 12. Here it is again....

Cheers. Actually missed it earlier. I've had a look around and can't find anything beyond 2003. Has there been any update on that story? I also noticed in the story that the traveller representatives agreed with the parents that the case should be reopened and more transparacy in how the Minister of Justice comes to his rulings. Kind of a strange comment for a "criminal".

It also appears to be an issue with the DPP rather then a traveller issue.

[edit].. Finally found more info on it.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/0924/6news/6news56_10.smil

Details why the case didn't go forward. Appears they did not have enough evidence to pursue it but it is still open if evidence is forthcoming and a statement that it had absolutly nothing to do with the people being travellers.

Sam Vimes

/takes hobbes gently by the arm and leads him off to a quiet room for a nice cup of tea and a sit down

gurramok

Hobbes wrote:

Again you have nothing to back this up. No where in the story does it say that the stoning took place from within the halting site.

I did read it. It was a peaceful sitdown protest he was arrested at. Yes they were illegally blocking an area however your earlier comments was trying to imply that he was arrested for rioting.

LOL.. making up stories... riiiight. I am lying but everyone else with a story isn't? I also don't appreciate being called a liar.

Well Hobbes, I was one of those motorists who was stoned by traveller rioters on October of that year, not just me but a few hundred who were pelted on the Ratoath road, Finglas. (i was lucky to escape with no smashed windows).

This riot was reported in the major news media at the time.(RTE TV3, with gleaming tv pictures etc)

If you still believe this was fiction, the Garda Public Order Unit were stuck at Dunsink halting site where the barrier was erected to protect us from rocks and petrol bombs that were thrown at settled members of the community.
That morning before the riot, I and many other motorists had never felt so threatened in our lives when we were verbally abused at a sit down protest by travellers at the junction of Cappagh ave and Ratoath Rd.
They later moved their protest to the N3 in Blanch where many more motorists encountered their threatening behaviour.

You are indeed very lucky to live beside a small halting site in your area whch gives no trouble to you. The legal and illegal ones at Dunsink, the settled traveller estates of St Marys and Avila Park near me were involved in the rioting of that month.
How do I know this?...Hundreds of local people including myself, hundreds of gardai eyewitnessed it all.
The rioters originated from those estates, barricaded themselves in with garda lines around them. Hardly settled people rioting in a traveller estate!

billy the squid

Commander Vimes wrote:

/takes hobbes gently by the arm and leads him off to a quiet room for a nice cup of tea and a sit down

Asside from making comments intended to belittle those that disagree with you, oh and posting offensive jokes, have you anything to contribute?

It's the violence and aggression and lawlessness that is repulsive, not unemployment.

I would consider the use of words like "pikey" and "knacker" to describe travellers a form of agression. I am not saying you have used these words. but they have been used in this thread by people who are of the opinion that they are a higher form of life than both travellers and those who disagree with them in relation to travellers.

I have only seen the word "idiot" coming from one side of this debate also. the one accusing the other of being agressive as it happens.

tell you what go over here and start a thread with an anecdote about, oh i dont know, pick any race you like. You can be sure that you will hear many many more similar anecdotes about that race. but it is not representative though.

Hobbes

gurramok wrote:

Well Hobbes, I was one of those motorists who was stoned by traveller rioters on October of that year, not just me but a few hundred who were pelted on the Ratoath road, Finglas. (i was lucky to escape with no smashed windows).

This riot was reported in the major news media at the time.(RTE TV3, with gleaming tv pictures etc)

Fair enough. The actual sort of response I was looking for.

If you still believe this was fiction,

I didn't believe it was true or not, just that the story didn't infer travellers were throwing stones and the story was used as a veiled attempt to imply that someone arrested at the peaceful protest was taking part in the rioting.

120 families is a small site?

zenith

Right, for good or ill, this thread has been referred to Humanities.

Humanities was created for the purpose of having rational, thoughtful, calm debate about issues. It was created as an alternative to After Hours. A place for intellectual discourse.

Bannings are frequent, and permanent. It's a very different place to where it's come from. Follow the rules above, or get the hell out of Dodge.

WhiteWashMan

zenith wrote:

Right, for good or ill, this thread has been referred to Humanities.

Humanities was created for the purpose of having rational, thoughtful, calm debate about issues. It was created as an alternative to After Hours. A place for intellectual discourse.

Bannings are frequent, and permanent. It's a very different place to where it's come from. Follow the rules above, or get the hell out of Dodge.

and its like a huge weight has been taken from my shoulders........

OMcGovern

billy the squid wrote:

tell you what go over here and start a thread with an anecdote about, oh i dont know, pick any race you like.

If that link is supposed to imply that I'm a racist then you're wrong.
I work and drink happily with a wide range of nationalities in my company.
They're civilised people, contributing to society by working and obeying the law.

Ajnag

Ummm, Just to comment on the origional primise of this thread, Re: Travelers and the cars they drive.

An observation of mine, is that until before the celtic tiger economy, travellers were driving transits and hi-aces for the most part. Nobody noted or complained.

And yet, Post boom.... Travellers are driving better cars along with the rest of the population...... SHOCK HORROR :eek:
It seems that money has filtered though society during economic growth. Gee what were the odd's of that? :rolleyes:

And where has this money come from?
From the settled community for the most part who trade with travellers. Do's the settled community discriminate wether or not these goods are stolen or illegal?
Do they hell!

So on one hand we're going to have people rant on and on and on,
and who will then go out and have no complaints what so ever when they get a bargain - legal or not.

Go figure....

billy the squid

OMcGovern wrote:

If that link is supposed to imply that I'm a racist then you're wrong.
I work and drink happily with a wide range of nationalities in my company.
They're civilised people, contributing to society by working and obeying the law.

nope not at all. i am making the point that if you were to start a thread on the internet about any minority, it is inevitable that you will get replies with similar stories to your own. again i will say that just because you get 5,10 or 20 responses on a thread on the internet, does not prove that the majority of that minority are evil.

just to add. I seen a figure of 20 percent of all travellers are involved in crime. heres something that I came accross

Irish people who use the internet are working with software right, 38 percent of them are using illegal software
http://www.enn.ie/news.html?code=9607972

now where is the outcry about that. does this make any irish person with a computer a criminal? by the way.

I will ask. how many of you antis have not one single illegal file on your pc.

"let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone"

Zombrex

Sorry, I am not really following the "OH MY GOD!!" aspect of this thread .. who ever said Travellers were poor? I would imagine some of them are, but a lot aren't. Is this wrong?

Are they supposed to be all poor because they live in a caravan? I think people are not really understanding why they live in a caravan. It isn't because they cannot afford a house.

Also being poor isn't why they don't pay tax. Poor settled people pay tax. The reason a lot of travellers get out of paying tax is because they have no fixed address and it is nearly impossible to track them down to make them. A lot of clever settled self employed people get out of paying tax this way too, by declaring a tiny amount of what they make to a fixed address.

The self-employed millionaries declaring €25,000 a year income, and then get things like the college grant for their kids, would piss me off a lot more travellers driving around in new cars.

Sam Vimes

billy the squid wrote:

Asside from making comments intended to belittle those that disagree with you, oh and posting offensive jokes, have you anything to contribute?

i have quite a lot to contribute as you would see if you looked at my many posts that don't include jokes. Also, it's spelled aside. I normally don't correct spelling but you annoyed me

Sam Vimes

Ajnag wrote:

And yet, Post boom.... Travellers are driving better cars along with the rest of the population...... SHOCK HORROR :eek:
It seems that money has filtered though society during economic growth. Gee what were the odd's of that? :rolleyes:

driving better cars along with the rest of the population? the last time i looked out my window i saw a ford fiesta, not a bmw

Hobbes

Wicknight wrote:

The reason a lot of travellers get out of paying tax is because they have no fixed address and it is nearly impossible to track them down to make them. A lot of clever settled self employed people get out of paying tax this way too, by declaring a tiny amount of what they make to a fixed address.

I am pretty sure I said this exact same thing to you earlier.

1. Travellers pay taxes just like everyone else. There are probably some that don't just like there are probably some settled people who don't pay taxes.
2. halting sites = fixed abode. Not to mention not all travellers live in halting sites.
3. less then 1% actually move around. an even lower figure are illegally halting.

Also as pointed out in the traveller myths link they are also means tested when claiming for money off the government just like everyone else.

I'd also like to add that recently it was shown that the top millionaries in Ireland were shown not to pay any taxes whatsoever and only up until recently all musicians didn't have to pay taxes either.

Hobbes

Commander Vimes wrote:

driving better cars along with the rest of the population? the last time i looked out my window i saw a ford fiesta, not a bmw

You know someone mentioned earlier that they knew a traveller who owned a business. You would assume he would have a good car no?

Litcagral

Hobbes wrote:

I am pretty sure I said this exact same thing to you earlier.

1. Travellers pay taxes just like everyone else. There are probably some that don't just like there are probably some settled people who don't pay taxes.
2. halting sites = fixed abode. Not to mention not all travellers live in halting sites.
3. less then 1% actually move around. an even lower figure are illegally halting.

Also as pointed out in the traveller myths link they are also means tested when claiming for money off the government just like everyone else.

I'd also like to add that recently it was shown that the top millionaries in Ireland were shown not to pay any taxes whatsoever and only up until recently all musicians didn't have to pay taxes either.

I regularly see the postman entering the sites near me - usually a good indication that someone has an address.

billy the squid

Commander Vimes wrote:

driving better cars along with the rest of the population? the last time i looked out my window i saw a ford fiesta, not a bmw

was the same car outside your house before the celtic tiger though. are you denying the assertion that irish people in general are buying better cars now than they were, say, ten years ago?

OMcGovern

billy the squid wrote:

nope not at all. i am making the point that if you were to start a thread on the internet about any minority, it is inevitable that you will get replies with similar stories to your own.

Irish people who use the internet are working with software right, 38 percent of them are using illegal software
http://www.enn.ie/news.html?code=9607972

I disagree.
I can't think of another minority group which has such a history and reputation for violence and aggression in this country. (excluding drug related crime)

If someone started a thread on any arbitrary minority, they probably would get plenty of people to agree with them.... but I doubt they'ld get 5 personal stories about being attacked by that minority.

billy the squid wrote:

"let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone"

LOL
Especially after Gurramok's reply #268, about being stoned by travellers in the Rathoat road, Finglas. You were either trying to be funny or just scored an "own goal" in your argument

I honestly don't know how you can compare "white collar crime", like copyright infringement / software piracy, with violence.

billy the squid

OMcGovern wrote:

I disagree.
I can't think of another minority group which has such a history and reputation for violence and aggression in this country. (excluding drug related crime)

If someone started a thread on any arbitrary minority, they probably would get plenty of people to agree with them.... but I doubt they'ld get 5 personal stories about being attacked by that minority.



LOL
Especially after Gurramok's reply #268, about being stoned by travellers in the Rathoat road, Finglas. You were either trying to be funny or just scored an "own goal" in your argument

I honestly don't know how you can compare "white collar crime", like copyright infringement / software piracy, with violence.

crime is crime. and the "stone" reference is from the bible and not intended to relate to any other poster. I could have said "people in glasshouses shouldnt throw stones" but you would have come to the same conclusion.

the idea of people on the internet 38 percent of them are committing crime, complaining about a 20 percent crime rate in the travelling community is laughable.

Hobbes

OMcGovern wrote:

I disagree.
I can't think of another minority group which has such a history and reputation for violence and aggression in this country.

Again check the travellers myths link.
http://www.nccri.ie/pdf/traveller-myths.pdf

Traveller Myths wrote:

Travellers are often blamed for crime and anti-social behaviour. This may occur even when it emerges subsequently that others were responsible. As in all communities there will be some Travellers who engage in crime, but, to associate all Travellers with crime, or to blame Travellers for crime without proof, is offensive and contributes to the exclusion of Travellers.
...
Travellers are often associated with violent behaviour. However, there is no evidence that violence of any type is more prevalent among any one ethnic group than another. This label is often used to paint Travellers as brutish and as a justification for racism and discrimination which excludes Travellers.

but I doubt they'ld get 5 personal stories about being attacked by that minority.

Of course you would. I have been mugged a total of 3 times in my lifetime. All on the northside. Does that mean the majority of northsiders are criminal?

I can even give you easily numerous stories from Darndale of criminals/violence. However I would say from my experiences there that the vast majority in Darndale are not criminal or violent.

So as said a handful of stories doesn't prove a majority.

Dave!

micosavo wrote:

we are being brow beaten by all these anti-racist groups that spend all day saying that the Knackers (and lets not beat around the bush here, they are knackers, I liked to see one respond to this thread!) are being given a bad rep by the minority of the travellers. They are all bad.

They have never "subscribed" to our society. They never pay taxes, insurance, nothing, nothing, nothing. Yet, they get full social welfare payments and all politicians and gardai are afraid to say anything because they are afraid of being labelled racists.

Our society has become such that we cannot complain anymore, we cannot say that something is wrong without fear of retribution. I've worked for half my life (15 years). I've paid my share of my wages into the government coffers so if I get my teeth fixed on the PRSI or it goes to help the aged or people who are less well off, all the better.

But I really begrudge any of my money going to people who have only ever contributed to the black economy.

Local joe soap on the ground gets find up to €1,500 for dog poop and rubbish and such. Higher for companies. But all around I see the local councils spending our money providing skips for them and cleaning up after "them" after they leave a particular side of a road in a total mess. One such place was Dun Láoghaire marina. My car gets clamped if i don't pay €1 for hr. They have their caravans all over the place, with burnt out cars and mounds of rubbish

It makes my blood boil. We live in a democracy. I have a right to say my piece. They are a vast minority (and not bloody ethnic!). They are inforcing their will on the majority. I contribute to this country, they do not. We all know what they are. We all have our own stories. I will not entertain peoples excuses about how bad lives they have, how they live in a vicious circle. B******ox! I drive passed the "halting" sites with a car that is always older than the passats, hiaces and whatnot parked outside.

I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. They should all be put on a boat, the boat should be sailed out to the middle of the atlantic and sunk.

Sorry, thats my rant over, a bit harsh to be honest.

But I leave you all with one thought if you managed to make it through my diatribe...

If the boat "Final Solution" did occur; What contribution to our society would we be missing?..........would anybody miss them?

My thoughts exactly.

I read up to about post #170, and I'm not bothered to read through the rest of the thread... I just dislike travellers. Plain and simple! They don't contribute to society, they wreck everywhere they go, and they cause trouble all the time. Now, someone is going to to ask for statistics and interviews and government reports to back this up, but I'm afraid you've got me there! I can't provide the literature to back it up -- it's just a nationally (universally?) accepted fact. There is a minority of good people in the travelling community, but I'm afraid unless they get out of it they'll end up like the rest of them.

It f*cking p!sses me off when people like Hobbes and billy the squid come into threads defending them -- oh they're lovely people, you're generalising, you're a racist, where's your proof? link? blehblehblehblehbleh..... You all know that they're no good, you're just defending them to make yourself feel better or to feel like a good person. If you don't realise it, or can't accept it, then you're living in a dream world, or you've got your head in the sand. Or you're playing devil's advocate.

I'm happy to see that you're the minority, though (at least going by this thread and my family/friends). Most people can accept that, yes, there is some nice travellers, but the majority are criminals or soon-to-be criminals and leeches. You're entitled to your opinion but your opinion and readiness to call everyone racists is what keeps the problem alive. If there wasn't f*cking stupid groups doing this, then the government and the Gardaí could tackle the problem of crime, drugs, litter, violence, fraud, tax evasion, etc., that exists in the travelling community, and stop treating them like they're a poor misunderstood minority. It's f*cking ridiculous, I can't stand you people...

Anyway, that's my 2 cents, I'll not get into the whole "can you provide written evidence that this is indeed the case?" crap with Hobbes cos it goes through my head :rolleyes:

I was actually thinking a few minutes ago, hmmm, why is it that there's no evidence about the level of crime among travellers, on the internet? Because they rarely get arrested for it, so the only way to find out the truth is to go into the camp and ask a load of them do they commit crimes regularly -- and I really don't think that they'd be too eager to divulge that information to you if it's going to show them in a bad light. If you went in and ask them do they experience much prejudice, do you find it difficult to get a medical card or a job, then methinks you'd be more likely to get an answer.

I'm done... Hopefully at some stage in the future, though, somebody will get the facts out of them and shut these PC morons up.

Hobbes

DaveMcG wrote:

Now, someone is going to to ask for statistics and interviews and government reports to back this up, but I'm afraid you've got me there! I can't provide the literature to back it up

I was going to suggest you read the charter until...

I'm done... Hopefully at some stage in the future, though, somebody will get the facts out of them and shut these PC morons up.

Dave!

Hobbes wrote:

I was going to suggest you read the charter until...

What?

Litcagral

DaveMcG wrote:

What?

Thought you were done?

Hobbes

DaveMcG wrote:

What?

Well its not your fault for not reading all the way through the thread before posting, but threads in Humanities and rules are a bit stricter here..

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50615635&postcount=271

Btw, everything you spouted. Already been covered.

billy the squid

I read up to about post #170, and I'm not bothered to read through the rest of the thread... I just dislike travellers. Plain and simple! They don't contribute to society, they wreck everywhere they go, and they cause trouble all the time. Now, someone is going to to ask for statistics and interviews and government reports to back this up, but I'm afraid you've got me there! I can't provide the literature to back it up -- it's just a nationally (universally?) accepted fact.

The very existance of people or groups that disagree with this viewpoint is evidence that this "fact" as you would like to call it, is not in fact universally accepted.

accepted fact. There is a minority of good people in the travelling community, but I'm afraid unless they get out of it they'll end up like the rest of them.

are these more "universally accepted facts?" and what makes you think that the ones who are not committing crime will do so eventually. is it the fact that they are travellers which indicates that they will commit crime at some stage?

It f*cking p!sses me off when people like Hobbes and billy the squid come into threads defending them -- oh they're lovely people, you're generalising, you're a racist,

Here is a wake up call. Not everyone on the internet is going to agree with you. If you dont like it then there is a button on your computer that says "power." press it.

As for accusations of racism. I don't think I have called anyone in the anti-traveller camp "racist." Biggoted or sectarian maybe, but when words like "pikey" are used then one is just stating facts. people who are not biggotted or sectarian do not use words like that.

where's your proof? link? blehblehblehblehbleh..... You all know that they're no good, you're just defending them to make yourself feel better or to feel like a good person. If you don't realise it, or can't accept it, then you're living in a dream world, or you've got your head in the sand. Or you're playing devil's advocate.

If one was to post any old ****e on the internet and claim it to be fact, then it would make the whole idea of these forums worthless. I see forums like this as an opportunity to learn stuff that I did not know before. If someone says that 99 percent of all travellers are criminal, am I supposed to believe them based on their personal opinion? no offence, you could be lying through your teeth for all I know. I am not saying you are, but I don't know you and therefore I have no reason to trust your statements as gospel.

I'm happy to see that you're the minority, though (at least going by this thread and my family/friends). Most people can accept that, yes, there is some nice travellers, but the majority are criminals or soon-to-be criminals and leeches. You're entitled to your opinion but your opinion and readiness to call everyone racists is what keeps the problem alive.

I would disagree with this. It is my opinion that what is keeping animosity between the settled and travelling community alive is the fact that more people deem it acceptable to discriminate against travellers, than say homosexuals, or black people. Travellers are not another race, therefore those who begrudge them don't see themselves as being racist. Travellers are not a different nationality, so those who begrudge them do not see themselves as ethnicly discriminating against them.

you're just defending them to make yourself feel better or to feel like a good person. If you don't realise it, or can't accept it, then you're living in a dream world, or you've got your head in the sand. Or you're playing devil's advocate.

look good to who exactly? you still cannot accept the fact that there are going to be people on this internet that are going to have a different viewpoint to you. Your viewpoint is different to mine, and lots of others on this thread, yet I have not called anyone an idiot, or told jokes about them that might offend them.

For the record, I come from a traveller family, and I find your claim that i am living in a dream world when it comes to mentioning law-abiding travellers somewhat insulting.

And no I don't have a BMW. but those travellers that I know that do, worked ****ing hard for years to buy them.

If there wasn't f*cking stupid groups doing this, then the government and the Gardaí could tackle the problem of crime, drugs, litter, violence, fraud, tax evasion, etc., that exists in the travelling community, and stop treating them like they're a poor misunderstood minority. It's f*cking ridiculous, I can't stand you people...

Again, just because someone disagrees with your viewpoint, or has a different perspective on it, does NOT make them stupid.

I'm done... Hopefully at some stage in the future, though, somebody will get the facts out of them and shut these PC morons up.

is this more namecalling?

Dave!

Hobbes wrote:

Well its not your fault for not reading all the way through the thread before posting, but threads in Humanities and rules are a bit stricter here..

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50615635&postcount=271

I see... I've steered clear of derogatory terms for that purpose, dunno what the mods will say about the content of my post, just my opinion though.

Now that I think of it, I'd say you've actually reported my post, haven't you? lol

Anyway, I'm sure billy the squid's political incorrectness detector is beeping out of control, so if you haven't, you can probably save yourself the click.

Hobbes wrote:

Btw, everything you spouted. Already been covered.

Yeah I know... cos I quoted a post of someone with the same opinion... Thankfully it's a more popular view than your own naive one.

Hobbes

DaveMcG wrote:

I see... I've steered clear of derogatory terms for that purpose,

"morons" :rolleyes:

dunno what the mods will say about the content of my post, just my opinion though.

Now that I think of it, I'd say you've actually reported my post, haven't you? lol

They will probably ban you if I was to take a guess and no I haven't reported your post. I am under the general feeling that everyone should be given a second chance.

If you can argue your point beyond conjecture and personal opinion I'll even read it.

I'm sure billy the squid's political incorrectness detector

You just don't give up with the personal attacks.

Thankfully it's a more popular view than your own naive one.

Not sure you read the whole thread (doubtful) but my view is this. Yes there are criminal elements in the traveller community, I am sure there are certainly others that will fit everyones ancedotes to date. However where I have contention is the leap from that to total generalisation for the countries community of travellers.

I mean even the term "majority X" (where X = whatever negative association they are inferring) no anti has yet to back up with anything that can be verified. Yet there are numerous reports by various legitimate bodies that can prove otherwise.

Hobbes

With regards for further information regarding the "models" comment. I've asked about it.

This is some years back. Two sisters (one has children now as far as she knows) and both were registered with a modelling agency and had done hair salon shows and some catalog work. Beyond that she didn't give me names and I personally don't see a reason to post personal names on the forums.

OMcGovern

billy the squid wrote:

crime is crime.
the idea of people on the internet 38 percent of them are committing crime, complaining about a 20 percent crime rate in the travelling community is laughable.

"Crime is crime" ?
That means absolutely nothing..... it's verbal diarhorrea.
It's the sort of cliche that's just reguritated automatically without a thought in your head.

So someone with eg. an MP3 of Aerosmith, is not allowed ( if you had your own way ), to comment on violent crime ?

Please reread this article to get a proper sense of perspective.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2003/06/18/story679888088.asp

Hobbes wrote:

Again check the travellers myths link.
http://www.nccri.ie/pdf/traveller-myths.pdf

The people who wrote that document were told, constrained even, to paint a good picture of travellers. Hardly a piece of unbiased documentation.

Hobbes

OMcGovern wrote:

So someone with eg. an MP3 of Aerosmith, is not allowed ( if you had your own way ), to comment on violent crime ?

You could probably link the two (well if you believe the RIAA). As some level of pirate stuff is traced back to criminal gangs/terrorist organisations.

The people who wrote that document were told, constrained even, to paint a good picture of travellers. Hardly a piece of unbiased documentation.

And where pray tell did you find this out? Details who they are here..
http://www.nccri.ie/nccri-about.html

It points out common myths. Those with a deep rooted hatred for travellers are hardly going to be swayed by such a document but it does point out the BS that goes on for those who are more opened minded at finding out more information.

Incidently that site also documents racist based attacks.
http://www.nccri.ie/incidents-reports.html

People go on about how Travellers are criminals, etc but nothing is mentioned of the reverse. Some of the reported incidents are quite an eye opener. Like a traveller family have a fire set under thier car by settled people.

StupidLikeAFox

It shows attacks on travellers by settled people, but not the ones by travellers on settled people.

OMcGovern has a point when he says its a slightly biased.

One thing i wouldnt agree with in the leaflet is that that travellers are no more or less agressive than any other race. Things like the King of the Travellers, the prize fights, what i have seen with my own eyes, heard from friends and so on, justify my opinion on this (to me at least)

In my opinion there are assholes everywhere, racists, travellers, blacks, whites. I would have to say most travellers i have met were assholes. Love it or hate it, thats just my experience

Hobbes

ColHol wrote:

It shows attacks on travellers by settled people, but not the ones by travellers on settled people.

OMcGovern has a point when he says its a slightly biased.

No, it only lists those that have made reports. Settled people are more then welcome to make such reports which would then be documented.

Things like the King of the Travellers, the prize fights, what i have seen with my own eyes, heard from friends and so on, justify my opinion on this (to me at least)

Ahh ok so your telling me non-travellers don't have those kinds of fights? I find that a wee bit hard to believe.

I would have to say most travellers i have met were assholes. Love it or hate it, thats just my experience

Thats fine.

OMcGovern

Hobbes wrote:

You could probably link the two (well if you believe the RIAA). As some level of pirate stuff is traced back to criminal gangs/terrorist organisations.

If I were to adopt your attitude, I'd disect every single line of your response, and ask you for formal weblinks on your opinions.

So how on earth can you "probably" link the two ?

Or, as I firmly suspect, are you simply believing the adverts on before the films in the cinema/DVD's ?

Both yourself and Billy_the_squid are straining logic beyond breaking point, to equate destroying a 5 years old girls life, with copying a DVD.

And for your information, and education, there's a difference between organised software/copyright piracy, and personal software piracy.

I think I've pretty much destroyed that ridiculous "crime is crime" argument.

amp

DaveMcG wrote:

My thoughts exactly.

I read up to about post #170, and I'm not bothered to read through the rest of the thread... I just dislike travellers. Plain and simple! They don't contribute to society, they wreck everywhere they go, and they cause trouble all the time. Now, someone is going to to ask for statistics and interviews and government reports to back this up, but I'm afraid you've got me there! I can't provide the literature to back it up -- it's just a nationally (universally?) accepted fact.

Except here. Here it's either provide facts or keep your stereotypes fúcking out of here. If you think I'm kidding then do a search on the word "traveller" in this thread and have a look at my record.

Hobbes

OMcGovern wrote:

Or, as I firmly suspect, are you simply believing the adverts on before the films in the cinema/DVD's ?

http://www.piracyisacrime.com/bigissue/terrorists.php

5 second google. As I said it is the RIAA adverts that declare this although that site appears to have more information.

Both yourself and Billy_the_squid are straining logic beyond breaking point, to equate destroying a 5 years old girls life, with copying a DVD.

It is a bit of stretch to equate one incident to the whole population of a group too. I also posted you the DPP response earlier in regards to that issue. It was not traveller related and more a problem with how our criminal system works.