DVD NTSC/Pal region unlocked question ...

decob

Now my knowledge of dvd is pretty decent, i'm a dab hand at maestro...

but would like to know if the following is humanly possible (cos i don't think it is).. Take one Pal dvd (well they claim it;s pal), it's also region free, put it into my dvd player... black and white!, player says it's ntsc. Software dvd player on pc also says ntsc...

Brought it back to the store today, to be today, "oh it is a pal dvd, but as it's region free some players may take it as being ntsc...".

Now from my experience, region setting are jsut a few check boxes... pal/ntsc require standards conversion..

Now, has anyone ever heard such BS being true or as i assumed in the begining, your man was talking bull, and the dvd is ntsc.

Gandhi

Could it be SECAM? I think PAL and SECAM use the same luminance (brightness) signal standard but different chrominance (colour) standard - hence the black and white viewing. If the devices you are using have no SECAM support, they might be trying and failing to interpret it as PAL and concluding it must be NTSC.

<EDIT>
Forgot to mention, SECAM is the standard used in France and Eastern Europe.
</EDIT>

decob

Gandhi wrote:

Could it be SECAM? I think PAL and SECAM use the same luminance (brightness) signal standard but different chrominance (colour) standard - hence the black and white viewing. If the devices you are using have no SECAM support, they might be trying and failing to interpret it as PAL and concluding it must be NTSC.

no it's definitely ntsc..
Video #0
Codec : MPEG Video 2
Bit rate : 5014 KBps
BitRate/Mode : VBR
Width : 720
Height : 480
Aspect ratio : 4/3
Frame rate : 29.97

Lump

So what's the question?

John

decob

Lump wrote:

So what's the question?

John

origianl question was if under any circumstance a pal region free dvd could somehow appear as being ntsc (i.e plays in b&w, dvd led says its ntsc).

Cos in my mind it's not possible, but hey, given mpeg headers you never know what really is possible.


I've ran the dvd in question through a number of tools, all tell me what i assumed from the begining, the fecking thing is ntsc.

A Dub in Glasgo

What DVD is it?

decob

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

What DVD is it?

Tommy tiernan - loose. also turns out my bro has an RTE - seven ages dvd bought in hmv last year that is also ntsc

Lump

You're scart lead may be nackered... the colour lead/leads may be broken... is it the same in anyother player?

John

decob

Lump wrote:

You're scart lead may be nackered... the colour lead/leads may be broken... is it the same in anyother player?

John

nah not that, all other dvd's are fine.

mediainfo, powerdvd. tmpeg, even premier pro is telling me it's ntsc.

Lump

I'm guessing it's NTSC then.... bring it to the shop and tell them to play it.

John

raphaelS

There are no DVD in Secam... it can only be Pal or NTSC.
Two formats and the region was enough.

Raphael

Gandhi wrote:

Could it be SECAM? I think PAL and SECAM use the same luminance (brightness) signal standard but different chrominance (colour) standard - hence the black and white viewing. If the devices you are using have no SECAM support, they might be trying and failing to interpret it as PAL and concluding it must be NTSC.

<EDIT>
Forgot to mention, SECAM is the standard used in France and Eastern Europe.
</EDIT>

Lump Basher

decob wrote:

Now my knowledge of dvd is pretty decent, i'm a dab hand at maestro...

but would like to know if the following is humanly possible (cos i don't think it is).. Take one Pal dvd (well they claim it;s pal), it's also region free, put it into my dvd player... black and white!, player says it's ntsc. Software dvd player on pc also says ntsc...

Brought it back to the store today, to be today, "oh it is a pal dvd, but as it's region free some players may take it as being ntsc...".

Now from my experience, region setting are jsut a few check boxes... pal/ntsc require standards conversion..

Now, has anyone ever heard such BS being true or as i assumed in the begining, your man was talking bull, and the dvd is ntsc.

Yer man is talking bull. It's clearly NTSC encoded - but authored as a region free disc. There's a huge difference between being Region free and NTSC/PAL, and the sales rep obviously doesn't know it.

"but as it's region free some players may take it as being ntsc" - wtf? He obviously doesn't have a clue.

Lump

Yes, I forgot to point that out. NTSC and region encoding have nothing to do with each other. Something can be Region 2.... but NTSC hence not playing in Europe.

John

Standard Toaster

Gimmie a sec and I'll check my one too.

Edit:

He deffo correct.



Didn't notice this myself as telly & player are NTSC compatible.
Bring it back to the shop.

John R

Strictly a DVD is neither PAL or NTSC, these generally mis-used terms only refer to the colour encoding of video.

The difference between a US (720x480 resolution and 29.97fps) and a European (720x576 resolution and 25fps) disc is the resolution and frame rate. the video is MPEG digital so no analogue colour encoding format is on the disc.

The PAL or NTSC (or SECAM) coding is done by the DVD player.

The problem that it appears decob is having is that the disc is US formatted and the player is outputing it with NTSC colour encoding which his TV can't handle. Most DVD players for PAL markets will output 29.97fps discs with PAL encoding (the format is called PAL-60) this quasi-PAL format is compatible with most European TVs.

Some DVD players will have a setting to chose NTSC or PAL-60 output for 29.97fps discs.


Every now and then I have found DVDs intended primarily for European markets encoded to US standards, in most cases the only logical explanation is that there are a lot of retarded muppets in the A/V business. In the case of a Tommy Tiernan DVD could it be because they expect to sell a lot to ex-pats in the US? If so it is just a cost-cutting exercise, one format rather than the expense of two releases.

They can usually get away with this as most European players and TVs will display the discs correctly while 25fps discs are un-playable on most US consumer equipment.

Lump Basher

John R wrote:

Strictly a DVD is neither PAL or NTSC, these generally mis-used terms only refer to the colour encoding of video.

The difference between a US (720x480 resolution and 29.97fps) and a European (720x576 resolution and 25fps) disc is the resolution and frame rate. the video is MPEG digital so no analogue colour encoding format is on the disc.

The PAL or NTSC (or SECAM) coding is done by the DVD player.

The problem that it appears decob is having is that the disc is US formatted and the player is outputing it with NTSC colour encoding which his TV can't handle. Most DVD players for PAL markets will output 29.97fps discs with PAL encoding (the format is called PAL-60) this quasi-PAL format is compatible with most European TVs.

Some DVD players will have a setting to chose NTSC or PAL-60 output for 29.97fps discs.


Every now and then I have found DVDs intended primarily for European markets encoded to US standards, in most cases the only logical explanation is that there are a lot of retarded muppets in the A/V business. In the case of a Tommy Tiernan DVD could it be because they expect to sell a lot to ex-pats in the US? If so it is just a cost-cutting exercise, one format rather than the expense of two releases.

They can usually get away with this as most European players and TVs will display the discs correctly while 25fps discs are un-playable on most US consumer equipment.

Thanks for repeating what I basically said, but in a more longwinded & pointless post.

Lump

He was showing off I think

John

StephenC_IRL

Just rip the DVD using DVD Shrink, then use DVD2AVI and convert it to an extremely high quality DivX .avi file. (quality should be at same resolution/framerate/quality as a DVD. Then use some decent DVD Writing software to put it on a DVD+R. You now have a high quality, region free, PAL DVD

A Dub in Glasgo

Easier to get a DVD Player that can convert NTSC to PAL or a TV that can handle NTSC in

Lump Basher

StephenC_IRL wrote:

Just rip the DVD using DVD Shrink, then use DVD2AVI and convert it to an extremely high quality DivX .avi file. (quality should be at same resolution/framerate/quality as a DVD. Then use some decent DVD Writing software to put it on a DVD+R. You now have a high quality, region free, PAL DVD

How does that change the NTSC encoded files to PAL?

Easier to get a DVD Player that can convert NTSC to PAL or a TV that can handle NTSC in

What are you on about? Surely it's easier to return the DVD that was SUPPOSED to be PAL in the first place, rather than buying a new player & TV!! And DVD players don't convert NTSC to PAL - they just support both NTSC and PAL signals.
Either way, he shoudn't have to go out of his way to accomodate the DVD disc - the DVD was falsely advertised, so he's entitled to a full refund under The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act: Goods are not as Described.

A Dub in Glasgo

Lump Basher wrote:

What are you on about? Surely it's easier to return the DVD that was SUPPOSED to be PAL in the first place, rather than buying a new player & TV!! And DVD players don't convert NTSC to PAL - they just support both NTSC and PAL signals.

All my previous DVD players could output PAL, NTSC or convert NTSC to PAL 60. No difference to me as my TV can support both NTSC and PAL but if your TV cannot, getting the DVD player to output PAL 60 will do the trick. The OP must be using an old TV or a DVD Player that is not capable of outputting PAL 60. DVD players can convert to a type of PAL which a PAL only TV will display correctly.

Either way, he shoudn't have to go out of his way to accomodate the DVD disc - the DVD was falsely advertised, so he's entitled to a full refund under The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act: Goods are not as Described.

Totally agree but if he really wants that Tommy Tiernan DVD, it would appear it is only available in NTSC format therefore he should move with the times or bring the DVD back and get a refund.

Lump Basher

Dude - DVD players do not have built-in standards converters.

A Dub in Glasgo

Hey dude, if you can agree that a DVD player can output PAL, NTSC or PAL60, we are getting somewhere

decob

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

All my previous DVD players could output PAL, NTSC or convert NTSC to PAL 60. No difference to me as my TV can support both NTSC and PAL but if your TV cannot, getting the DVD player to output PAL 60 will do the trick. The OP must be using an old TV or a DVD Player that is not capable of outputting PAL 60. DVD players can convert to a type of PAL which a PAL only TV will display correctly.

tv in question doesn't support ntsc, other one does.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Totally agree but if he really wants that Tommy Tiernan DVD, it would appear it is only available in NTSC format therefore he should move with the times or bring the DVD back and get a refund.

Move with the times? Last time i checked i live in PAL land, the dvd is labeled as being PAL... Quite frankly I think it would be highly irresponsible for a production company to produce a dvd in NTSC for a PAL region, going on the belief that 'most' dvd players and new tv's support ntsc..

My guess is that this is a mix up during replication/packaging.

StephenC_IRL - that would be the most pointless exercise in ripping a dvd.. If i was really pushed, i'd just use a stardards converter and re-author it.

also, i will be returning the dvd once i'm back in work...

John R

decob wrote:

Move with the times? Last time i checked i live in PAL land, the dvd is labeled as being PAL... Quite frankly I think it would be highly irresponsible for a production company to produce a dvd in NTSC for a PAL region, going on the belief that 'most' dvd players and new tv's support ntsc..

My guess is that this is a mix up during replication/packaging.

I doubt it. For a limited appeal title like that two releases are unlikely. It is bad form to be incorrectly labeling it and you have every right to get your money back but chances are that if you want to watch the thing you are going to have to accept the NTSC disc.

Lump Basher wrote:

Dude - DVD players do not have built-in standards converters.

Dude - If you had READ and UNDERSTOOD my post rather than making a snotty little remark then you might have learned that all DVD players are standard converters.


They all convert MPEG digital to analogue video. At this stage the PLAYER encodes the video into either NTSC or PAL colour. Most European consumer DVD players are capable of outputing DVDs formatted for US standards with PAL colour, some will give the option of NTSC or PAL and a few will just output in NTSC.

I did not basically repeat what you said becase basically you are full of it.

Lump Basher

John R wrote:

Dude - If you had READ and UNDERSTOOD my post rather than making a snotty little remark then you might have learned that all DVD players are standard converters.

I did not basically repeat what you said becase basically you are full of it.

So you're saying that if you play an NTSC dvd on your player, it will output a pure PAL signal? Because that's what a standards convertor does - it converts NTSC to PAL, or vice versa. A DVD player doesn't do this. It outputs pseudo-pal (PAL 60) - it's not a proper PAL video signal. It merely decodes an NTSC signal to make it viewable on a PAL TV. If you try to copy the NTSC disc on your PAL VCR, it will not record in colour. Guess why, genius.

For successful viewing of an NTSC source on a PAL system, you need either:

a) A player which is able to convert NTSC to Real PAL. In this case you will also be able to copy the NTSC source using standard PAL equipment.

or

b) A TV set and player which are both able to use the Pseudo PAL (also known as PAL 60 or PAL 525) hybrid TV standard. In this case you will not be able to copy the NTSC source using standard PAL equipment. Pseudo PAL is only good enough to watch, not to record!

A Dub in Glasgo

So you are basically agreeing with this?

Where did the record bit come into it?

A Dub in Glasgo

decob wrote:

tv in question doesn't support ntsc, other one does.



Move with the times? Last time i checked i live in PAL land, the dvd is labeled as being PAL... Quite frankly I think it would be highly irresponsible for a production company to produce a dvd in NTSC for a PAL region, going on the belief that 'most' dvd players and new tv's support ntsc..

We do live in PAL land and this is an NTSC disc masquerading as PAL. Newer TVs and most DVD players that I know will handle the region free NTSC disc. This is no accident, the comapany have produced this disc as NTSC. I have a couple of them my self (I think a Christy Moore RTE production).

My guess is that this is a mix up during replication/packaging.

My guess it is meant to be an NTSC disc. Most players and TVs out now would be able to handle it. You will, of course, get your refund as it is a misrepresentation to say it is a PAL disc.

Lump Basher

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

So you are basically agreeing with this?

Where did the record bit come into it?

Yes, I agree with that, BUT the same player cannot output all 3. Show me a link to a DVD player (a regular consumer model) that can output a pure PAL and a pure NTSC signal (not Pal 60)....

The "record bit" is proof that it's not a real PAL signal coming out of the DVD player, hence the DVD player DOESN'T contain a standards converter. It merely has the ability to DECODE and playback an NTSC signal, but not RE-ENCODE it to real PAL. The comment was directed at "John R".