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Wheel of time - Help needed.
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30-12-2005 6:54am#1
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!_Brian_! wrote:I'v been the same for the last 3 books. Ended up just re starting the whole series each time one came out but when I got Knife of Dreams I was like, "Fcuk that if I'm restarting it again!" and just kindaplowed into it. Got so lost at parts but finished it there last week with a fair idea of whats going on. Think I might just leave it a year or 2 before getting the last one when its out and just do the whole complete thing.
That's exactly what I did this time too, and ended up skimming through book 10 to refresh my mind rather than miss anything. I love the whole WoT series, and feel that if when the whole series is available in its entirety it will become a lot more readable than at present. It is certainly epic in its scope and I understand some people get fed up with all the subplots etc, but its all part of the magic for me
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Hmmm.
Firstly, I will say that I agree that books 7 - 9 are slower than the previous and that possibly too much time is taken up with character building and sub plots (they are there), book 10 is the least good of the series so far, in my opinion. To answer your points;
1) The story starts from the point of view of three country lads who knew little or nothing about the one power. Moraine, who was one of the strongest wielders of saidar at that time, chose to run rather than fight and risk losing the only chance the world had of winning Tarmon Gaidon. It becomes clear later on, that many talents had been lost over the years, and Aes Sedai were far weaker than in the past. All that was to change.
2) It was more than a day afair. The cleansing of saidin was a gigantic event surely? The arrival of the daughter of the nine moons and the seanchan subplots as well as the treatment of Faile by the Aiel were all very interesting, as was the intricities of the Aes Sedai, both in the tower, and in the rebel camp.
3) Nynaeve is the braid puller, it signifies she is getting annoyed, and the harder she pulls, the more angry she is. She does a lot, its true, but shes only one character. His portrayal of women, and Nynaeve in particular, shows quite good insight into the female thought processes
4) Yes I agree, Jordan instead brings even more subplots into the picture, which does muddy the waters a little.
However, I stand by my original point, when the entire series is finished, it should be more appealing. Its the waiting for the next one thats the killer
I've read some of George RR Martins work, the song of ice and fire was great, which others do you recommend?
I haven't read any Stephen Erikson, which one should I start with?
Bought myself a stack of books a month ago, still have to get through;
A Feast of Crows - the bould george again
Honoured Enemy - Feist
Swords of Night & Day & Winter Warriors - Gemmell
Assassins Apprentice - Robin Hobb
I've also read all the Hickman/Weis Dragonlance books, loved them too.0 -
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Lanfear wrote:
1) The story starts from the point of view of three country lads who knew little or nothing about the one power. Moraine, who was one of the strongest wielders of saidar at that time, chose to run rather than fight and risk losing the only chance the world had of winning Tarmon Gaidon. It becomes clear later on, that many talents had been lost over the years, and Aes Sedai were far weaker than in the past. All that was to change.
The problem being that when that change came about, Jordan lost a lot of the edge and the tension that the early books had. The hunted became the hunter, and the Forsaken were made out to be nothing special really. These were the best of the darkfriends who went to join the Dark One in a time where Aes Sedai were at their most powerful - and they fail to live up to the hype.Lanfear wrote:2) It was more than a day afair. The cleansing of saidin was a gigantic event surely? The arrival of the daughter of the nine moons and the seanchan subplots as well as the treatment of Faile by the Aiel were all very interesting, as was the intricities of the Aes Sedai, both in the tower, and in the rebel camp.
Didn't the events where Rand was in some town where he couldn't draw his sword take place over one day? (I really can't remember the specific name of the place). Yes, the cleansing of saidin was a big event, however the only reason it was actually of any interest was due to it having being built up so much in the preceeding books. The event itself was a little underwhealming I thought.3) Nynaeve is the braid puller, it signifies she is getting annoyed, and the harder she pulls, the more angry she is. She does a lot, its true, but shes only one character. His portrayal of women, and Nynaeve in particular, shows quite good insight into the female thought processes
Oh I know that, but it's not only Nynaeve who does it. Egwene does it too. And Elayne even does it from time to time, as well as her cursing. Yes, it shows how the characters inner thoughts are coming out in actions, but there's too much made of it, it's very repetitive... granted, it's funny to have an image of a woman yanking chunks of her hair out with frustration but at the rate they go they should have no hair left at all.I've read some of George RR Martins work, the song of ice and fire was great, which others do you recommend?
Ice & Fire, in particular, is fantastic - not just from a storyline point of view, but the mixing in of lots of characters and telling the story from lots of different viewpoints shows good writing. Plus he's a bloodthirsty bastard who isn't afraid to maim/kill/blind a character who you've been following from the start of the book 1.I haven't read any Stephen Erikson, which one should I start with?
Gardens of the Moon is his first fantasy book - it's all the one series, and quite confusing to start off with in terms of how his world works - it mixes gods and magic and morals becoming gods in a very interesting way. Every book of his I read makes me re-read the previous books as every new book gives you more insight into the ones he's written before.amazon.com wrote:This is not a book for the casual reader. If you tend to read a chapter or so every few weeks, don't bother. You're bound to get confused. There're just too many characters, too many deviations, too many goings-on. This is one of those books that demands your attention.
Check out http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0553812173/reviews/202-2005587-23646380 -
moridin wrote:The problem being that when that change came about, Jordan lost a lot of the edge and the tension that the early books had. The hunted became the hunter, and the Forsaken were made out to be nothing special really. These were the best of the darkfriends who went to join the Dark One in a time where Aes Sedai were at their most powerful - and they fail to live up to the hype.
Forsaken? Don't you mean the Chosen I don't agree that they were made out to be nothing special - it took either Rand or Balefire to kill most of those who died, as they were too powerful for most others. The descriptions of Semirhage and her hobbies were surely gruesome enough?moridin wrote:Didn't the events where Rand was in some town where he couldn't draw his sword take place over one day? (I really can't remember the specific name of the place). Yes, the cleansing of saidin was a big event, however the only reason it was actually of any interest was due to it having being built up so much in the preceeding books. The event itself was a little underwhealming I thought.
The very end could have been better it's true, but everyone on the planet who could draw saidin or saidar knew something big was happening!moridin wrote:Oh I know that, but it's not only Nynaeve who does it. Egwene does it too. And Elayne even does it from time to time, as well as her cursing. Yes, it shows how the characters inner thoughts are coming out in actions, but there's too much made of it, it's very repetitive... granted, it's funny to have an image of a woman yanking chunks of her hair out with frustration but at the rate they go they should have no hair left at all.
It didn't really irritate me, brought a smile to my lips most of the time, maybe its a case that when you fix on something, its every mention leaps out at you.......moridin wrote:Ice & Fire, in particular, is fantastic - not just from a storyline point of view, but the mixing in of lots of characters and telling the story from lots of different viewpoints shows good writing. Plus he's a bloodthirsty bastard who isn't afraid to maim/kill/blind a character who you've been following from the start of the book 1.
Yes, thats very true, it brings out an emotional reaction alright - you are nearly afraid to turn the page
I haven't started Feast for Crows yet so don't tell me anything more :eek: I'm halfway through the swords of night and day so its next on the list.moridin wrote:Gardens of the Moon is his first fantasy book - it's all the one series, and quite confusing to start off with in terms of how his world works - it mixes gods and magic and morals becoming gods in a very interesting way. Every book of his I read makes me re-read the previous books as every new book gives you more insight into the ones he's written before.
Sounds interesting and the review has whetted my appetite - have put it on ordermoridin wrote:Originally Posted by amazon.com
This is not a book for the casual reader. If you tend to read a chapter or so every few weeks, don't bother. You're bound to get confused. There're just too many characters, too many deviations, too many goings-on. This is one of those books that demands your attention.
Check out http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0553812173/reviews/202-2005587-2364638
Luckily I am a voracious reader and would be even more so if work and life didn't keep interfering. I get at least an hour a day in, more when I can.0 -
I dont agree either. all of the remeinder have integrated so well that when they fall, the organisation they control falls also eg. Mesaana. I cant imagine it keeping together without her.Lanfear wrote:Forsaken? Don't you mean the Chosen I don't agree that they were made out to be nothing special - it took either Rand or Balefire to kill most of those who died, as they were too powerful for most others. The descriptions of Semirhage and her hobbies were surely gruesome enough?0 -
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I've just finished book 10 - By the Lords of Kobol, it was bloody awful. Nothing happened. Nothing happened!. It's amazing how few events can pass in six hundred and eighty pages.
Take Mat's plot for example:Mat goes with a travelling circus and takes a walk with the Daughter of the Nine Moons.. There ya go, don't think I really left anything important out.
Or how about Elaynes?Elayne travels back to Caemlyn. She takes a bath, has a meeting with the Sea Folk, has a meeting with some nobels.. Wuhoo - I've summated it with all the important points marked.
What's particularly irritating is that we don't get to see the consequences of the most interesting part of book 9 acted out -the cleansing of saidin. Instead we spend pages watching other characters wonder what's going on...
And as to the Aes Sedai. Sorry, Nynaeve's braid-tugging was tired in book two. Now it's just poor characterisation. Indeed many of them aren't well done - the women, Aes Sedai in particular, are interchangable and generally "have a meek demenour but they'd burn the hide off of you if you looked at them the wrong way" or some such. And hte males aren't much better - characterisation is generally along the lines of "Light! He'd never understand women the way Character X does!" Bleh.
Moirdin's also right about the Chosen being far too meek these days - no sense of danger. A lot of that is to do with them constantly finding people extremely powerful in the One Power. For centuries.. nothing. Then they're all over the place - Aiel, Sea Folk, the Kin, etc etc. Nyaneve's gift doesn't seem so special.
I really hope Book 11 is better than this, that the storylines actually move somewhere. That, unlike this book, everyone isn't just sitting on their arses, picking weevils out of their grain and supping weak tea whilst bloody talking endlessly to characters who differ only by a few consonants in their names. Im stuck until the end but if the quality doesn't improve, it'll be a very bitter end :mad:
Let me finish with one of the many brilliant Amazon reviews - an excerpt:I started this series before i could shave:
2 kids
1 wife
college
3 jobs
2 major moves
and a bit of hair loss later, i'm still reading about Rand, Matt and Perrin (and 312,456 other characters that i've filed away under "i hate that i have to remember you and your blasted, nonsensical name. especially since you'll probably not pop up again in the story untill book 17, and by that time you will share the same syntax, syllable length and letter configuration as 457 other characters of similar importance introduced since. In addition to not remebering who you are and why you suddenly interrupted an Aes Sedai tea party complete with serenity, dignified reserve and calm surface chatter about ice peppers from Saldea, i have to read a 7 page description about your feelings about the said Aes Sedai's choice of tea." And while that appears to be a long mental file to keep characters confined in, you should actually try reading these books and keep every freaking character straight!)
I once watched a PBS special about cab drivers in London. Doctors had discovered that there is a part of our brain that stores the necessary details we need to travel about our little corner of the world. For London cabbies, who have to recall VAST amounts of detail in a city that seems to have been designed by drunken Lugarders, this part of their brain was COSIDERABLY larger than average. So much so that when compared side by side to that of a "normal" brain, i gasped at the difference. Then something occured to me that had me quickly regaining a sense of serenity; i realized that this portion of my brain must now fill up my entire skull due to the amount of detail necessary to keep up with the story. Jordan himself must have two seperate heads just to store all that detail in. Mensa here i come!
Then another thought occured to me that shattered the icy calm of the void: The doctors said that this part of the brain grew because of NECESSARY detail. That leaves me with only one conclusion: If cab drivers in London NEED all the detail that causes their brains to swell, then the inverse must also be true; filling the brain with useless detail must in turn SHRINK it. If after reading Crossroads of Twilight i have even a raisen left in my skull, i'll consider it a victory. TOO MUCH DETAIL that does nothing for the story. It is NOT "rich" storytelling to embelish every single page with line upon line of fashion, food and mood descriptions while relegating important plot advancements to a paragraph or two. That is called fleecing the sheep. And like sheep, we're stupid enough to keep reading to find out, one day, what actually happens at the end.
My advice to anyone who loves fantasy:
If you must read this series, become a cabbie in London to fight off the effects of the brain shrinkage. It's what i've chosen to do. 0 -
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