Plate Recognition devices for Gardaí

HashSlinging

BrianD3 wrote:

. Eg I have heard numerous reports of cars with no NCT, worn tyres, blown bulbs, unaccompanied provisional drivers etc. being stopped at Garda checkpoints yet nothing was said.

The new system will probably be a farce like everything else in this country.

I'm just back from westport where I was for the christmas break, some of the yokes driving around down there are unbelivable, seen one corsa with both yes both indicator/stop/reverse/hazzard/fog/reflector units gone with plastic bags over them.. owner probably scared water might rust the car... this thing was in bits.

unkel

mackerski wrote:

I think that this is an excellent idea, and for a reason not yet mentioned: it would remove the requirement to have three independent pieces of paper cluttering the windscreen, each separately proving a different kind of legal compliance. Viva convergence!

Hail! And no need for any more silly time wasting roadblocks with Gardai pointing a torch first at the driver and then at those pieces of paper. Until random breath testing is put in place that is

watsgone wrote:

the majority of garda have no driving training for these situations.
I would hate to hear of more fatalies because of the lack of training on the garda's side

I know this is true. A very serious issue imho. ATM Gardai driving patrol / unmarked cars that have not done the course (the majority) get dispensation from their superintendant. This dispensation is typically withdrawn after one or more serious crashes by said driver, but surely it should work the other way around, i.e. no driving until the course has been succesfully completed

Litcagral

unkel wrote:

I know this is true. A very serious issue imho. ATM Gardai driving patrol / unmarked cars that have not done the course (the majority) get dispensation from their superintendant. This dispensation is typically withdrawn after one or more serious crashes by said driver, but surely it should work the other way around, i.e. no driving until the course has been succesfully completed

AFAIK if a Garda does the advanced driving course and fails, they are never allowed to drive Garda vehicles again. That is why so few put themselves forward for it.

Savman

Bond-007 wrote:

My heart bleeds for the poor little piggies!

unkel

Litcagral wrote:

AFAIK if a Garda does the advanced driving course and fails, they are never allowed to drive Garda vehicles again. That is why so few put themselves forward for it.

That's new to me. I thought it was a resources issue, i.e. Gardai put themselves forward for it alright, but there are only a few places on the course

I'll research and post back on this

Boggle

Silvera wrote:

with the option to attend court - and face a larger fine if you decide to do so

Sorry mate but I prefer to have the right to defend myself in court without fear of reprisal (i.e. extra punishment for "daring" to defend myself against the almighty gardai).

It's really frustrating when I see people coming out with offhand little statements like yours...

Ratchet

Silvera wrote:

According to today's Sunday World, the Gardaí will take delivery of a new €6 million Plate Recognition System in 2006.

How the system works is -
Patrol cars are fitted with a device which scans the number plate of whatever vehicle is in front of the patrol car, and if the vehicle is not insured/taxed/NCT'd, etc a warning sound will activate within the patrol car and the car will be pulled over and the driver cautioned or fined.

also there is bunch of cameras installed all over the place specially for this system. e.g. oposite to Tesco ClareHall. These will monitor moving traffic.

blastman

Re all the talk about having cameras watching you: are we sure we really want to go down this road? I for one wouldn't like to live in a country where you are constantly watched when you go out in public.

Capt'n Midnight

blastman wrote:

Re all the talk about having cameras watching you: are we sure we really want to go down this road? I for one wouldn't like to live in a country where you are constantly watched when you go out in public.

move to London then.
point being it's already happened, private security cameras are everewhere and some are being shared to the public

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/12/30/shoreditch_digital_bridge/

Alongside video on demand TV services from Homechoice, the SDB will offer a "Community Safety Channel" which will allow residents "to monitor estate CCTV cameras from their own living rooms, view a 'Usual Suspects' ASBO line up, and receive live community safety alerts."

MrPudding

Boggle wrote:

Sorry mate but I prefer to have the right to defend myself in court without fear of reprisal (i.e. extra punishment for "daring" to defend myself against the almighty gardai).

There is no reprisal. It is quite similar to getting on the bus actually. When you get on the bus you buy a ticket. You get a huge discount. If you get on wothout a ticket you pay the standard fair. €25 or something.

It is the same with traffic offenses. If you say "it's a fair cop, I was speeding" and take you oil you get a smallish fine and 2 penalty points. This is with the discount. If you chose to fight it and lose you get the "full fare."

I understand it is symantics really but you are not getting extra punishment for going to court, you are just getting the normal punishment without the discount.

MrP

Hagar

The plate is on the left, the cutlery is on the right.

I just couldn't resist it, I'll get me coat [IMG]http://members.boards.ie/hagar/I'll get me coat.gif[/IMG]

Our man in Havana

Hagar wrote:

The plate is on the left, the cutlery is on the right.

I just couldn't resist it, I'll get me coat [IMG]http://members.boards.ie/hagar/I'll get me coat.gif[/IMG]

Roffle! Well Done!

vasch_ro

unkel wrote:

I know this is true. A very serious issue imho. ATM Gardai driving patrol / unmarked cars that have not done the course (the majority) get dispensation from their superintendant. This dispensation is typically withdrawn after one or more serious crashes by said driver, but surely it should work the other way around, i.e. no driving until the course has been succesfully completed

actually its chief Superintendent authorisation, hence the Garda slang driving on "chiefs"

vasch_ro

Litcagral wrote:

AFAIK if a Garda does the advanced driving course and fails, they are never allowed to drive Garda vehicles again. That is why so few put themselves forward for it.

not quite true... just to clarify there are three types of course
The Standard Driving Course (suitable for ordinary policing duties)
The advance Driving Course (u must have passed the standard course to be eligible for this course, generally only specialist units(ie Traffic, ERU etc ) and Ministerial pool do this course.
Instructors course (if u want to teach the above 2 courses !!)
Hope this helps the thread even if it is slightly off topic:)

murphaph

Boggle wrote:

Sorry mate but I prefer to have the right to defend myself in court without fear of reprisal (i.e. extra punishment for "daring" to defend myself against the almighty gardai).

Huh? If you're accused of murder and you plead guilty you'll also receive a reduced sentence. What's the difference?

Boggle

Huh? If you're accused of murder and you plead guilty you'll also receive a reduced sentence. What's the difference?

Murder carries a mandatory life sentence.

From http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A02CF/vWeb/pcJUSQ5XUD5V-ga

Mandatory sentencing.
The traditional approach to sentencing is for the Oireachtas to lay down the maximum penalty. A court, having considered all the circumstances of the case, may then impose an appropriate penalty up to that maximum. This approach reflects the doctrine of the separation of powers. The Legislature lays down the possible punishment range but it is for the Courts to decide the punishment taking account of all the circumstances of the case and of the offender.

The problem I have with the points system is that there is no disretion allowed. It is cut and dried: plead guilty(easy on the state - no burden of proof) and get 2 points or defend yourself and risk 4. No accounting for circumstances, no judges discretion. The reality of the matter is that innocent people just accept the points as they are afraid to risk the 4 on a case thats always difficult to prove your innocence in.

That my friend is just plain wrong and ,dare I say it,... unconstitutional.

When you get on the bus you buy a ticket. You get a huge discount. If you get on wothout a ticket you pay the standard fair. €25 or something.

The 25 quid is a fine for not paying your fare. You might want a better argument....

seamus

Boggle wrote:

The 25 quid is a fine for not paying your fare. You might want a better argument....

Nope. €25 is the "Standard Fare". At a guess, I would say Dublin Bus or its conductors do not have the authority to issue fines. By issuing a "discount" to people who buy a ticket, they can insist that those without, pay the "Standard Fare".

You may call it semantics, but you'd surprised how many laws and/or rights which we take for granted are balanced on finely-worded documents.

blastman

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

move to London then.
point being it's already happened, private security cameras are everewhere and some are being shared to the public

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/12/30/shoreditch_digital_bridge/

Umm, that's exactly why I won't be moving to London any time soon.

George Orwell's vision is finally coming true (mixed in with Huxley's).

Boggle

Nope. €25 is the "Standard Fare". At a guess, I would say Dublin Bus or its conductors do not have the authority to issue fines. By issuing a "discount" to people who buy a ticket, they can insist that those without, pay the "Standard Fare".

You may call it semantics, but you'd surprised how many laws and/or rights which we take for granted are balanced on finely-worded documents.

So first you state that the bus drivers have no authority to issue fines and then you continue to use the example of a "pricing" system as an analogy to a law.

(Can't be sure but I think you may find that (if its anything like London) then there is actually a specially draughted law allowing them to issue fines... not that its here nor there...)

move to London then.
point being it's already happened, private security cameras are everewhere and some are being shared to the public

They have posters on the tubes over here and they're kinda freaky... They state "Watching you 24/7" then "For your protection"... cos its 2 steps shy of being a police state more like!!

seamus

Boggle wrote:

So first you state that the bus drivers have no authority to issue fines and then you continue to use the example of a "pricing" system as an analogy to a law.

Actually I was using the example to demonstrate how something can be legal (or in the case of speeding fines, consitutional) simply by carefully wording the policy/bye-law/agreement.

(Can't be sure but I think you may find that (if its anything like London) then there is actually a specially draughted law allowing them to issue fines... not that its here nor there...)

Well, that why I said "At a guess"; It's not something that I've researched in depth. As best I understand it, you get a discount for buying a ticket when you board, or you can pay the standard fare. If you fail to pay the standard fare, Dublin Bus may prosecute you (which is where the warnings of jail time and €500 fines come in).

DubTony

Back On Topic.

This plate recognition system is a great idea. However it will require that the computer in each car is either connected to a central computer or holds all the information about every registered vehicle in the country on its hard drive. Sounds like it could be 6 million bucks going the same way as the 50 mill for voting machines.

So let's do it simply. Put the discs on the back window or rear reg plate. A system that bleeps simply tells the Garda to get out of the car. His eyes, recognising that a disc is out of date, can do the same thing, albeit without the bleep.

But here's the problem. The cop has to get out of his nice warm car and actually confront the driver of the vehicle in front. Yup. The system might work if it's all hooked up, but will the cop?

I bought a car in Boston 15 years ago, put the reg plate on when I got it from the DMV but neglected to put the "tag" (tax disc) on the plate. The first time I took the thing out I was pulled over. It was 8 am, I was sitting in traffic, it was bucketing down with rain, and the lights on the cruiser behind came on. The cop caught my eye and pointed to the side of the road. I pointed at myself. He nodded. I pulled over. He got out of his car (in the pissing rain) and explained the problem. I got out so he could show me what he was talking about as I was unfamiliar with the system. He, very nicely, pointed out the tags on the other cars and explained that I got one with the reg plate. Meanwhile his partner was on the radio confirming my details with HQ and that I'd just registered the car. Simple, easy, effective. I got a replacement disc that afternoon.

A cop doing his job and doing it well, with some witty banter thrown in for good measure, even if he did have his hand on his gun, ensured that I'd always have my car taxed and the disc displayed. It all took less than 5 minutes. Maybe this is why Massachusetts has one of the lowest road deaths ratios in the world. The cops do the job they're paid for.

murphaph

Indeed Tony, perhaps our system will be wired to the squad car's seats to send a mild electric shock into the guard's arse to get him or her to actually do something!

Capt'n Midnight

seamus wrote:

Nope. €25 is the "Standard Fare". At a guess, I would say Dublin Bus or its conductors do not have the authority to issue fines.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/your_journey/general_information.asp - Bye-Laws

The Bus Atha Cliath/Dublin Bus Bye-Laws (S.I No. 236/1990) were made by Coras Iompair Eireann in the exercise of the powers conferred on by Subsection (1) of S.22. of the Transport Act 1950.

These Bye-laws govern all aspects of passengers’ behaviour on the buses. The following chapters set out in detail many of the Bye-Laws. A full text of the Bye-Laws is on display and can be examined at Dublin Bus Head Office, 59, Upper O’ Connell Street, Dublin 1.
....
Each passenger found travelling on a bus without being in possession of a current valid ticket for the journey will become liable to the payment of a standard fare. The standard fare is payable immediately upon the request of an Inspector or within 21 days from the time the request is made. This fare may be recovered by the Company from the person as a simple contract debt.
...
Passengers are advised that penalties on summary convictions can reach €500 and/or three months imprisonment (S.6 Transport Act 1987).

mackerski

DubTony wrote:

This plate recognition system is a great idea. However it will require that the computer in each car is either connected to a central computer or holds all the information about every registered vehicle in the country on its hard drive. Sounds like it could be 6 million bucks going the same way as the 50 mill for voting machines.

You won't need a lot of storage (in today's money) to store a database of all the valid plates on the road, even if you don't compress it. All it needs is the plate number itself along with some simple yes/no fields: taxed, insured, NCTed, warrants outstanding. You'll get that lot onto solid-state storage without even needing a hard drive. Think about how much storage we put in our cameras these days.

Dermot

MrPudding

mackerski wrote:

You won't need a lot of storage (in today's money) to store a database of all the valid plates on the road, even if you don't compress it. All it needs is the plate number itself along with some simple yes/no fields: taxed, insured, NCTed, warrants outstanding. You'll get that lot onto solid-state storage without even needing a hard drive. Think about how much storage we put in our cameras these days.

Dermot

Exactly. Not much of a problem now. Then the system update over short range secure wireless once the car returns to the yard or perhaps once in proximity to a station.

I doubt there would be too many false alerts. What would be the chances of the car encountering a car whos details have changed since the last update? Probably quite slim. Not much hassle anyway even if it did.

MrP

vasch_ro

murphaph wrote:

Indeed Tony, perhaps our system will be wired to the squad car's seats to send a mild electric shock into the guard's arse to get him or her to actually do something!

I know its an attempt at humour ...but I do take slight offence at this comment

unkel

vasch_ro wrote:

I know its an attempt at humour ...but I do take slight offence at this comment

Ah, another member of An Garda Siochana amongst us, vasch_ro?

I understand your annoyance over cheap 'n easy comments about lazy guards doing nothing and "should be after real criminals" and that type of thing emerging here now and then

Our man in Havana

unkel wrote:

Ah, another member of An Garda Siochana amongst us, vasch_ro?

I understand your annoyance over cheap 'n easy comments about lazy guards doing nothing and "should be after real criminals" and that type of thing emerging here now and then

Prehaps we should be watching what we say in here in future. Don't want to giving them any of our secerts for dealing with speeding summons!

John R

vasch_ro wrote:

I know its an attempt at humour ...but I do take slight offence at this comment

Direct quote from a member of our police farce upon recieving a report of a robbery:
"Yeah, there are gangs of them, they come in the mornings by train from (socially deprived area of Dublin), commit burglaries and leave in the afternoon. They will all have gone back now, there's nothing we can do."

*The garda station this statement was made from is less than a minute's walk from the train station.


It'll be a very long time before the general view that they are lazy ******* will disappear from the Irish population.

MrPudding

John R wrote:

Direct quote from a member of our police farce upon recieving a report of a robbery:
"Yeah, there are gangs of them, they come in the mornings by train from (socially deprived area of Dublin), commit burglaries and leave in the afternoon. They will all have gone back now, there's nothing we can do."

*The garda station this statement was made from is less than a minute's walk from the train station.


It'll be a very long time before the general view that they are lazy ******* will disappear from the Irish population.

But if they have gone home what would you expect the Garda to do? They are at home like.

If only there was a method of finding out if someone had been somewhere even though they are not there anymore. If only people left, I don't know, clues or maybe evidence that they had been somewhere. These "clues" or “evidence” could then be detected by someone. Oh this is cool. We could have “detectives” and their job would be to “detect” these clues. Then they would be able to go to people, even if they had already gotten the train home, and say we have “evidence” that you were in this place on or about the time when a robbery took place. Who knows, perhaps with time judges in court would start to take this evidence into account in cases so that people who were not actually caught red handed could be convicted of crimes.

Or am I just dreaming?

MrP