Best recent manager?

therecklessone

After seeing Fabio Capello's Milan destroy Barca 4-0 in YeatsCounty's uploaded video I got to thinking...

Limiting yourselves to current managers, and those who've managed in the last ten years, who do you consider to be the best manager in world football? Domestic and international football counts.

For me its a head to head between Capello and Fergie. Fergie's won more, both domestically and on the European stage, but IMO Capello's achievment of building three Scudetto-winning sides in the toughest league in Europe, his one La Liga title from his year in charge at Madrid, plus reaching three CL finals in a row (though winning only one, the 4-0 thrashing of Barca) just shades it.

So what do y'all think?

MrJoeSoap

Its hard to look past Ottmar Hitzfeld too.

Won a CL title with both Borrusia Dortmund and Bayern Munich, losing finalists in '99, 2 Bundesliga titles with Borrusia, 4 with Bayern.

Only second to Fergie in terms of European ties managed.

While I agree with Capello and Fergie, Hitzfeld deserves a look in too, he pretty much single-handedly put German football on the map during the 90's and early 00's.

therecklessone

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Its hard to look past Ottmar Hitzfeld too.

Won a CL title with both Borrusia Dortmund and Bayern Munich, losing finalists in '99, 2 Bundesliga titles with Borrusia, 4 with Bayern.

Only second to Fergie in terms of European ties managed.

While I agree with Capello and Fergie, Hitzfeld deserves a look in too, he pretty much single-handedly put German football on the map during the 90's and early 00's.

You're right Joe, my bad.

When I was considering the thread four names sprung to mind, Fergie, Capello, Hitzfeld, and Marcello Lippi, but for me its the first two who really stand out.

Lemlin

Guus Hiddink deserves a mention too I think. He won two Champions Leagues, one in '88 with PSV and then ten years later with Madrid, and let's not forget how far he took Korea in the World Cup.

He also had moderate success as Holland coach and has PSV on cracking form at the moment in Europe.

MrJoeSoap

Lemlin wrote:

Guus Hiddink deserves a mention too I think. He won two Champions Leagues, one in '88 with PSV and then ten years later with Madrid, and let's not forget how far he took Korea in the World Cup.

He also had moderate success as Holland coach and has PSV on cracking form at the moment in Europe.

Finished 4th in '98 and '02 with Holland and South Korea.

Odds on a treble with Australia this year???

Class manager.

Lemlin

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Finished 4th in '98 and '02 with Holland and South Korea.

Odds on a treble with Australia this year???

Class manager.

It was a pity PSV didn't reach the CL final last year too, they deserved to beat Milan in the semi.

therecklessone

Lemlin wrote:

Guus Hiddink deserves a mention too I think. He won two Champions Leagues, one in '88 with PSV and then ten years later with Madrid,

Just the one CL title, he took charge of Madrid in season 1998/99, Jupp Heynckes led Madrid to the 1997/98 CL.

He's definitely one of the top coaches of his era, but would you put him above at least three of the four I mentioned above?

MrJoeSoap

Not in terms of actual trophies I wouldn't, but he seems to like the underdogs and a bit of a challenge, which I admire.

Lex Luthor

Capello, Ferguson, Hiddink, Lippi and Benitez is closing in.

Would like to see Hiddink for the Irish team after the World Cup. I think we will see the FAI go all out to bring one of the top International managers in after WC 2006.

Lemlin

therecklessone wrote:

Just the one CL title, he took charge of Madrid in season 1998/99, Jupp Heynckes led Madrid to the 1997/98 CL.

He's definitely one of the top coaches of his era, but would you put him above at least three of the four I mentioned above?

How much has Capello spent to build his teams? Fergie also spent a considerable amount on United.

As pointed out by MrJoeSoap, Hiddink has consistently taken an underdog to the top level. A Champions League win with a PSV says that it itself, even if I was incorrect about his CL win with Madrid.

A factfile I read on Soccerphile credited him with leading them to glory.

mike65

Well Benitez should get an honourable mention - two La Liga titles with an unfancied club, and two european trophies back-to-back UEFA Cup 2004 (Valencia) and European Cup 2005 (Liverpool who were of course total underdogs).

Mike.

therecklessone

Lemlin wrote:

How much has Capello spent to build his teams? Fergie also spent a considerable amount on United.

How much did Leeds spend with O'Leary at the helm? How much did Ranieri spend at Chelsea (and how much stronger are the team under Mourinho)? You can spend all the money in the world, but the great managers identify the players that willbring them on, and get individuals to work together as a unit.

Lemlin wrote:

As pointed out by MrJoeSoap, Hiddink has consistently taken an underdog to the top level.

Did he?

MrJoeSoap wrote:

he seems to like the underdogs and a bit of a challenge

I wouldn't describe PSV as an underdog, certainly not in the context of the 1980s, when sides such as Forest, Liverpool, Villa, Hamburg, Juventus, Steaua Bucharest, Porto and Milan all won the European Cup. A CL win in the current era would definitely count though.

South Korea were most definitely underdogs (an unfortunate phrase to use given dietary preferencs in the country...) so 4th place in the WC was a great achievement.

Lemlin wrote:

A Champions League win with a PSV says that it itself

By that logic Emeric Ienei should be included.

Lemlin wrote:

even if I was incorrect about his CL win with Madrid.

A factfile I read on Soccerphile credited him with leading them to glory.

Thats all right Lemlin, I'm not the sort to hammer someone for not checking his sources.

therecklessone

mike65 wrote:

Well Benitez should get an honourable mention - two La Liga titles with an unfancied club, and two european trophies back-to-back UEFA Cup 2004 (Valencia) and European Cup 2005 (Liverpool who were of course total underdogs).

Mike.

I think both Mourinho and Benitez will feature in years to come Mike.

Jivin Turkey

The fact that Capello and Hitzfeld proved themselves with different clubs puts them above the rest.

therecklessone

Jivin Turkey wrote:

The fact that Capello and Hitzfeld proved themselves with different clubs puts them above the rest.

Ferguson broke the stranglehold of the Old Firm at Aberdeen, winning 3 league titles, 4 SFA Cups, a League Cup, and the Cup Winners Cup.

Jivin Turkey

therecklessone wrote:

Ferguson broke the stranglehold of the Old Firm at Aberdeen, winning 3 league titles, 4 SFA Cups, a League Cup, and the Cup Winners Cup.

It's easy to forget because it's so bloody long ago! But certainly an achievement that can't be dismissed based on the standard of the league, if anything the league being poor (outside the Old Firm) is a credit to it.

Did Lippi ever achieve much outside Juventus. I've done a search but can't seem to come up with anything conclusive.

therecklessone

Jivin Turkey wrote:

It's easy to forget because it's so bloody long ago! But certainly an achievement that can't be dismissed based on the standard of the league, if anything the league being poor (outside the Old Firm) is a credit to it.

Did Lippi ever achieve much outside Juventus. I've done a search but can't seem to come up with anything conclusive.

No, his only honours I can find are:

He won five season league titles with Juventus ('95, '97, '98 , 2002 and 2003), the Italian Cup ('95), the League Supercup ('97,'95, 2002 and 2003), Champions League ('96), the European Supercup and Intercontinental Cup ('97). He coached 275 matches in the A series: 121 wins, 84 ties and 70 losses.

In his first year he won the Italian double (first league title in 9 years), his 2nd year brought the CL (first since Heysel), his 3rd season brought the league, the European Super Cup and the World Club Cup, along with defeat in the CL final, and his 4th season brought the club's 25th Serie A title and another CL final defeat.

He was sacked in the 1998/99 season, but returned to replace Ancelotti for the 2001/02 season, winning two Serie A titles in a row (2001/02 and 2002/03) and two Italian Supercups. They lost another CL to Milan on penos in 2002/03, and he left the club at the end of season 2003/04 to take the job of Italian manager.

YeatsCounty

All of the managers mentioned here are worthy of the thread title in various ways, but I cannot look beyond Fabio Capello for the sheer haul of trophies that he has won with a wide variety of clubs.

Six Scudetti: Milan (4), Roma (1), Juventus (1). I'm certain that he will add another Scudetto to this list this coming May.
One La Liga title with Real Madrid.
One European Cup, also taking Milan to three consecutive finals.
One European Super Cup in the 1994-1995 season.
Three Italian Super Cups.

Twelve trophies with four teams in four cities: Milan, Madrid, Rome and Turin. All he needs to win now is the Intercontinental Cup to complete his high profile collection (the Coppa Italia, while a nice cup to win, is hardly high profile).

MrJoeSoap

I'm not a big fan of "Super Cups", they tend to just be one or two games. Of course there is usually an achievement beforehand but it might as well be two trophies instead of one.

YeatsCounty

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I'm not a big fan of "Super Cups", they tend to just be one or two games. Of course there is usually an achievement beforehand but it might as well be two trophies instead of one.

True, most Super Cups would probably reside with the Coppa Italia in terms of importance. Most managers would take losing the European Super Cup if they got to win the Champions League, I reckon.

Though if I was a manager, I wouldn't turn up my nose at one!

besty

I think its impossible to look past Fergie. He has been consistently the most successful manager in Europe for the past decade and the only black mark against his name is his single Champions League success.

Im biased though

Lemlin

therecklessone wrote:

How much did Leeds spend with O'Leary at the helm? How much did Ranieri spend at Chelsea (and how much stronger are the team under Mourinho)? You can spend all the money in the world, but the great managers identify the players that willbring them on, and get individuals to work together as a unit.



Did he?



I wouldn't describe PSV as an underdog, certainly not in the context of the 1980s, when sides such as Forest, Liverpool, Villa, Hamburg, Juventus, Steaua Bucharest, Porto and Milan all won the European Cup. A CL win in the current era would definitely count though.

South Korea were most definitely underdogs (an unfortunate phrase to use given dietary preferencs in the country...) so 4th place in the WC was a great achievement.



By that logic Emeric Ienei should be included.



Thats all right Lemlin, I'm not the sort to hammer someone for not checking his sources.

Go ahead and reopen the Vlaar thread if it pleases you. I can offer a link to my source if you'd like, rather than give a vague claim that I read it in an unnamed broadsheet paper.

He took a Dutch team that had a terrible Euro '96 to fourth in the WC. They were a great team but they had many problems in their time.

Reaching the last four of the CL with PSV last season was also a notable achievement, would you not think?

therecklessone

Lemlin wrote:

Go ahead and reopen the Vlaar thread if it pleases you. I can offer a link to my source if you'd like, rather than give a vague claim that I read it in an unnamed broadsheet paper.

I know you find this hard to accept Lemlin,but I don't spend every waking hour thinking of ways to reopen a four month old argument. Why can't you just let it go?

For the record, the vague claim of an unnamed broadsheet...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50583576&postcount=9

therecklessone wrote:

Can't link to my source, but one of the English broadsheets (either The Independant or The Guardian) stated his transfer was for £1.5 million

Of course, if you bothered to read the other posts on this forum instead of looking for hairs to split, you'd know which papers I'd mentioned.

therecklessone wrote:

He took a Dutch team that had a terrible Euro '96 to fourth in the WC. They were a great team but they had many problems in their time.

Your point being? For all their problems, he still had a wealth of talent at his disposal:

Goalkeepers:
Edwin VAN DER SAR (Ajax Amsterdam)
Ruud HESP (Barcellona)
Edde GOEY (Chelsea)

Defenders:
Michael REIZINGER (Barcellona)
Ferdi VIERKLAN (Tenerife)
Frank DE BOER (Ajax Amsterdam)
Jaap STAM (PSV Eindhoven)
Arthur NUMAN (PSV Eindhoven)
Winston BOGARDE (Barcellona)

Midfielders:
Clarence SEEDORF (Real Madrid)
Aron WINTER (Internazionale)
Ronald DE BOER (Ajax Amsterdam)
Phillip COCU (PSV Eindhoven)
Wim JONK (PSV Eindhoven)
Edgar DAVIDS (Juventus)
Giovanni VAN BRONCKHORST (Feyenoord)

Forwards:
Pierre VAN HOOYDONK (Nottingham Forest)
Patrick KLUIVERT (A.C. Milan)
Marc OVERMARS (Arsenal)
Dennis BERGKAMP (Arsenal)
Jimmy FLOYD HASSELBAINK (Leeds United)
Boudewijn ZENDEN (PSV Eindhoven)

therecklessone wrote:

Reaching the last four of the CL with PSV last season was also a notable achievement, would you not think?

I would. But then I acknowledged he was one of the best coaches of his era earlier in the thread. Did you miss it?

therecklessone wrote:

He's definitely one of the top coaches of his era, but would you put him above at least three of the four I mentioned above?

The four I mentioned were:

Alex Ferguson
Fabio Capello
Marcello Lippi
Ottmar Hitzfeld

You suggested that:

Lemlin wrote:

Hiddink has consistently taken an underdog to the top level

incorrectly attributing the statement to MrJoeSoap, and offered up his PSV side winning the European Cup in 1988 as "proof" of that. PSV were far from underdogs at the time, care to address my response to that claim in post #12 of this thread?

Lemlin

I know you find this hard to accept Lemlin,but I don't spend every waking hour thinking of ways to reopen a four month old argument. Why can't you just let it go?

For the record, the vague claim of an unnamed broadsheet...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...76&postcount=9

I did let it go. You were the one who brought up the Vlaar thread. Are you denying that?

Yet again you are accusing me of not dropping something when you are the one who mentioned it, and brought the topic up.

Your point being? For all their problems, he still had a wealth of talent at his disposal:

Goalkeepers:
Edwin VAN DER SAR (Ajax Amsterdam)
Ruud HESP (Barcellona)
Edde GOEY (Chelsea)

Defenders:
Michael REIZINGER (Barcellona)
Ferdi VIERKLAN (Tenerife)
Frank DE BOER (Ajax Amsterdam)
Jaap STAM (PSV Eindhoven)
Arthur NUMAN (PSV Eindhoven)
Winston BOGARDE (Barcellona)

Midfielders:
Clarence SEEDORF (Real Madrid)
Aron WINTER (Internazionale)
Ronald DE BOER (Ajax Amsterdam)
Phillip COCU (PSV Eindhoven)
Wim JONK (PSV Eindhoven)
Edgar DAVIDS (Juventus)
Giovanni VAN BRONCKHORST (Feyenoord)

Forwards:
Pierre VAN HOOYDONK (Nottingham Forest)
Patrick KLUIVERT (A.C. Milan)
Marc OVERMARS (Arsenal)
Dennis BERGKAMP (Arsenal)
Jimmy FLOYD HASSELBAINK (Leeds United)
Boudewijn ZENDEN (PSV Eindhoven)

Yes, and teams like Argentina and Portugal had a wealth of talent at the last World Cup, didn't they do great!?

Just read this description from Wikipedia:

The greatest challenge for Hiddink was his appointment as the manager of the Netherlands in 1994 where he took charge of a team of talented individuals continuallly racked by internal arguments and disputes, as was seen in the Euro 1996 tournament, when Edgar Davids was sent home after an argument with Hiddink. He was able to avoid a similar player bust-up in the 1998 World Cup where his team played some of the more entertaining football in that tournament. His usual tactic of deploying wingers backed-up by central midfielders resulted in goals even by defensive midfielders such as Philip Cocu and Edgar Davids. A bitter defeat at the hands of Brazil in the semi-finals of the World Cup 1998 signalled an end of an era for Hiddink, as he resigned soon after.

I think that aptly describes his achievement.

I would. But then I acknowledged he was one of the best coaches of his era earlier in the thread. Did you miss it?

Nope, and I also didn't miss you nitpicking through my thread. And you say it is me who is trying to restart a four month argument.

incorrectly attributing the statement to MrJoeSoap, and offered up his PSV side winning the European Cup in 1988 as "proof" of that. PSV were far from underdogs at the time, care to address my response to that claim in post #12 of this thread?

Sadly, I am too young to remember 1988. All I can say is what I have read. That Hiddink took a team who had never won the European CUp and within three seasons made them European Champions. PSV have never been considered a big European club like Milan or Madrid, so I would consider them underdogs. I doubt they were even favourites to win the final that year against Benfica.

As for MrJoeSoap, I didn't incorrectly attribute any comment to him. Did you miss this post:

Originally posted by MrJoeSoap
Not in terms of actual trophies I wouldn't, but he seems to like the underdogs and a bit of a challenge, which I admire.

Its post number 8 if you're getting confused.

therecklessone

Lemlin wrote:

I did let it go. You were the one who brought up the Vlaar thread. Are you denying that?

Yes.

Lemlin wrote:

Go ahead and reopen the Vlaar thread if it pleases you.

That was post #22 if you're confused.

Lemlin wrote:

Nope, and I also didn't miss you nitpicking through my thread. And you say it is me who is trying to restart a four month argument.

You're thread? I started it.

Nitpicking? Is that what you call reasoned debate?

You're first post

My reply (with question)

Your 2nd post (with no answer to question)

My 2nd reply to you

And here's where it all starts to unravel

That'll be the paranoia again.

I'll quote myself (again), there's that question (again), please do answer.

therecklessone wrote:

He's definitely one of the top coaches of his era, but would you put him above at least three of the four I mentioned above?

Lemlin wrote:

Sadly, I am too young to remember 1988. All I can say is what I have read. That Hiddink took a team who had never won the European CUp and within three seasons made them European Champions. PSV have never been considered a big European club like Milan or Madrid, so I would consider them underdogs.

I was but a mere slip of a lad myself, but I was able to find the clubs that won European Cups in the 80s.

Nottingham Forest
Liverpool
Aston Villa
Hamburg
Juventus
Steaua Bucharest
Porto
PSV
Milan

By my reckoning there's only three big European clubs in that list. And thats my point, its only in the last ten years or so that the big European clubs have come to dominate the CL. Go back to the 70s and look at the beaten finalists...Malmo, Leeds, Atletico Madrid, St. Etienne, Celtic, Borussia M'chengladbach, Brugge, Panathinaikos...

Lemlin wrote:

As for MrJoeSoap, I didn't incorrectly attribute any comment to him. Did you miss this post:

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Not in terms of actual trophies I wouldn't, but he seems to like the underdogs and a bit of a challenge, which I admire.

Its post number 8 if you're getting confused.

I see we're back into a game of "I said you said".

Oh well...:rolleyes:

Lemlin wrote:

As pointed out by MrJoeSoap, Hiddink has consistently taken an underdog to the top level.

That was post #10 if you're confused.

MrJoeSoap never pointed out that Hiddink has consistently taken an underdog to the top level, he said that it seems Hiddink likes the underdogs. "Likes" does not mean "takes to the top level".

Lemlin

therecklessone wrote:

Yes.



That was post #22 if you're confused.



You're thread? I started it.

Nitpicking? Is that what you call reasoned debate?

You're first post

My reply (with question)

Your 2nd post (with no answer to question)

My 2nd reply to you

And here's where it all starts to unravel

That'll be the paranoia again.

I'll quote myself (again), there's that question (again), please do answer.





I was but a mere slip of a lad myself, but I was able to find the clubs that won European Cups in the 80s.

Nottingham Forest
Liverpool
Aston Villa
Hamburg
Juventus
Steaua Bucharest
Porto
PSV
Milan

By my reckoning there's only three big European clubs in that list. And thats my point, its only in the last ten years or so that the big European clubs have come to dominate the CL. Go back to the 70s and look at the beaten finalists...Malmo, Leeds, Atletico Madrid, St. Etienne, Celtic, Borussia M'chengladbach, Brugge, Panathinaikos...



I see we're back into a game of "I said you said".

Oh well...:rolleyes:



That was post #10 if you're confused.

MrJoeSoap never pointed out that Hiddink has consistently taken an underdog to the top level, he said that it seems Hiddink likes the underdogs. "Likes" does not mean "takes to the top level".

Thats all right Lemlin, I'm not the sort to hammer someone for not checking his sources.

Are you denying that is a direct reference to the Vlaar thread? For someone who likes to lecture on dropping topics, you have a very bad habit of bringing up previous debates.

I wouldn't place him above them at all. I never said that. I do however think that his achievements have been notable and he is one of the best recent coaches. I'll repeat what I said, he took a team who had never won the European Cup and within three seasons they were European Champions.

You can give little evidence that they weren't underdogs except for the list of CL winners you have posted. The fact is I would imagine they were, would you not?

He also took a hugely troubled Dutch team to the last four of the World Cup, not to mention his heroics with Korea and PSV again in recent times. Is that not a consistent record of taking underdog teams to the top?

As for the nitpicking comment, are you denying that you began dissecting my post (sorry, I should not have used the word thread) and replying to each individual part?

therecklessone

Lemlin wrote:

Are you denying that is a direct reference to the Vlaar thread? For someone who likes to lecture on dropping topics, you have a very bad habit of bringing up previous debates.

There's nothing direct about it, its a statement of fact. I don't harp on about people making mistakes. Are you suggesting otherwise?

Lemlin wrote:

I wouldn't place him above them at all. I never said that.

Thank you, thats what I asked you in my first reply to your post on the thread (for the purpose of continuing the debate), seeing as the thread is about the best recent manager I felt it was a valid question to ask.

Lemlin wrote:

I do however think that his achievements have been notable and he is one of the best erecnt coaches.

No argument from me there (see my first reply to you)

Lemlin wrote:

You can give little evidence that they weren't underdogs except for the list of CL winners you have posted. The fact is I would imagine they were, would you not?

There you go, your imagination.

IMO, the golden age of Portugese football ended in the 60s. Benfica's last European Cup victory was in 1962 against Real Madrid, while their last appearance in the final before meeting PSV in 1988 was against Man Utd in 1968. In the intervening 19 years, only 1 Portugese side reached the final of the European Cup (Porto, who won it in 1987) In the same period, Dutch sides reached 5 finals (1969-1973), winning four (3 for Ajax, 1 for Feyenoord)

The UEFA Cup tells a similar story. The 19 years from 1969-87 sees four apperances in the finals from Dutch sides (wins for Feyenoord and PSV in 1974 and 1978 respectively, defeats for Twente and AZ in 1975 and 81) against one final defeat for Portugal's Benfica in 1983.

The Cup Winners Cup is more even, one apiece, with Porto runners-up in 1984 and Ajax winners in 1987, though Ajax were beaten finalists in 1988.

One might also point to the gulf in quality between the two national sides, both in the 70s and late 80s (Dutch European Champions in the Summer of 88)

IMHO, Dutch football is stronger than Portugese football, and has been since the late 60s. Given the British dominance of European football from the mid 70s onwards, I think those achievments by Dutch clubs are more than acceptable.

Of course, my original point regarding the EC winners in the 80s remains valid. The sides we perceive to be "big European clubs" today were few and far between when it came to EC winners in that decade.

Nottingham Forest - winners twice (back to back)
Liverpool - winners five times
Aston Villa - winners once
Hamburg - winners once
Juventus - winners twice
Steaua Bucharest - winners once
Porto - winners twice
PSV - winners once
Milan - winners 6 times.

The decade also produced six first time winners (Villa, Hamburg, Juventus, Steaua, Porto, and PSV)

European Cup/Champions League winners

UEFA Cup winners

Cup Winner's Cup winners

Lemlin wrote:

He also took a hugely troubled Dutch team to the last four of the World Cup, not to mention his heroics with Korea and PSV again in recent times. Is that not a consistent record of taking underdog teams to the top?

It is. But its not what MrJoeSoap said, no matter what way you paint it.

Lemlin wrote:

As for the nitpicking comment, are you denying that you began dissecting my post (sorry, I should not have used the word thread) and replying to each individual part?

Thats my posting style, there are numerous points you raise in each post that I want to reply to, and for clarity's sake I deal with each one individually. I certainly don't do so with malicious intent. Without wanting to invite complaints of dragging up old threads, I've posted like that since we both jumped on our little merry-go-round back in August, and its the first time I recall you accusing me of nitpicking (but I'm open to correction on that recollection)

Dempsey

Capello followed by Lippi followed by Ferguson

Thanx 4 The Fish

Once again I have been called to look at a thread as a result of a report and once again it is you who is the main protagonist in the thread Lemlin. Do you not know when you are beaten ? Give up your threadspoiling ways and perhaps as some nature of New Years resolution, read other peoples posts before going off on a pages long rant.

Lemlin

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Once again I have been called to look at a thread as a result of a report and once again it is you who is the main protagonist in the thread Lemlin. Do you not know when you are beaten ? Give up your threadspoiling ways and perhaps as some nature of New Years resolution, read other peoples posts before going off on a pages long rant.

I struggle to see how I am the main protagonist. Was it not therecklessone who dragged the thread off-topic by arguing with my point that Hiddink has been a consistently good manager? Why couldn't he just accept my point and carry on?

I don't see him arguing with MrJoeSoap, who also said that Hiddink is a good recent manager. Why is this? Why does he argue with me but not another person who was of the same opinion?

He consistently brings up points about old topics like "Without wanting to invite complaints of dragging up old threads, I've posted like that since we both jumped on our little merry-go-round back in August, and its the first time I recall you accusing me of nitpicking (but I'm open to correction on that recollection)", why is it necessary to bring up points like that about months ago?

therecklessone

Lemlin wrote:

I struggle to see how I am the main protagonist. Was it not therecklessone who dragged the thread off-topic by arguing with my point that Hiddink has been a consistently good manager? Why couldn't he just accept my point and carry on?

I did accept your point. I'm not going to quote myself again, read the thread.

Lemlin wrote:

I don't see him arguing with MrJoeSoap, who also said that Hiddink is a good recent manager. Why is this? Why does he argue with me but not another person who was of the same opinion?

You don't see me arguing with anyone else, maybe because when I disagree with their points I ask them questions or challenge their viewpoint, and they usually respond to the question? When I feel they have a valid point to make, I acknowledge that (see post #3 in reply to MrJoeSoap) You took five long posts on this thread to answer one simple question. Thats not how debates work. Thats why our exchange degenerated into another argument.

Lemlin wrote:

He consistently brings up points about old topics like "Without wanting to invite complaints of dragging up old threads, I've posted like that since we both jumped on our little merry-go-round back in August, and its the first time I recall you accusing me of nitpicking (but I'm open to correction on that recollection)", why is it necessary to bring up points like that about months ago?

Christ on a bike, you accuse me of nitpicking, I point out that the fact that my posting style hasn't changed since you first encountered me, and that you haven't complained before about it, and now I'm dragging up old threads? :rolleyes:

Do yourself a favour, listen to T4FT when he gives you good advice.

Rikand

Mark Hughes, Definately!