Carr and Sourness in bust up?

Rikand · 04-01-2006 8:42pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Surely if these reports were so widespread, as they seem to be, one would still be able to track them down now???

Partial linkage::

Brett emerton commends hughes for working on their fitness from when he arrived:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/b/blackburn_rovers/4535955.stm

hughes comments on players being fitter than when he arrived:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/b/blackburn_rovers/4045491.stm

not the actual links i was looking for, but they do suggest to it

-edit-

and the archives on www.bbc.co.uk/sport

http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?tab=sport&q=mark+hughes&start=1&scope=sportukfs

i am in work, dont have time to look through them all, but there might be more

Jivin Turkey · 04-01-2006 9:47pm

Lemlin wrote:

Take your problem up with Sky Sports, not me. They reported it.

Eh coming from the man who hammered another poster on checking his sources, I'd rather not. Particularly when your little altercation was over a couple of hundred thousand pounds of a transfer fee.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a source or link to such an allegation made by yourself. I'm still to see adequate proof of "a lot" of Blackburn players saying that they were not "conditioned at all correctly" from you, but to be honest I didn't and don't really expect to ever get any.

Lemlin wrote:

And, as pointed out above, I have no wishes for another Souness appreciation thread.

If I am to be honest I would gladly get involved in another discussion about Souness and his ability as a manager. Once it wasn't with people with chips on their shoulders who constantly ignore the facts and post pure speculation and bullcrap opinions.

Lemlin wrote:

I'm not the only one here saying Souness is a terrible manager. If you've problems with anyone's opinion, how about you start at the top and work your way down, like I suggested.

I'm not taking issue with what you think of Souness as a manager. Would you read what I said Lemlin (is there an echo in here?)? Hence I will not discredit (again) any invalid and completely aimless claim you or anyone else make about Souness and his lack or abundance of managerial ability.

But since it's commonplace to have to repeat again and again to you, I'm asking you for a link or a source to a pretty big allegation, and yet to be fully substantiated, that a lot of Blackburn players were "not conditioned at all" under Souness.

I know a guy that owns a pet store who may be happy to recommend a parrot if you were interested.

Rickylovesuall wrote:

Partial linkage::

Brett emerton commends hughes for working on their fitness from when he arrived:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/b/blackburn_rovers/4535955.stm

hughes comments on players being fitter than when he arrived:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/b/blackburn_rovers/4045491.stm

not the actual links i was looking for, but they do suggest to it

-edit-

and the archives on www.bbc.co.uk/sport

http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?tab=sport&q=mark+hughes&start=1&scope=sportukfs

i am in work, dont have time to look through them all, but there might be more

At last some sort of success! Thank you Rickylovesuall. The reports may be over a year old, but at least it's something to work with.

I wouldn't call a single player and the team manager "a lot of players" (like you did Lemlin), and I'm not a football expert but I would imagine players would be fitter in November rather than a couple of games into a season, but hey at least it's something!

Guy:Incognito · 04-01-2006 9:50pm

BaZmO* wrote:

Just what you need if you're having problems with your squad, Anelka the team player!! :rolleyes:

B.

Yeah Robbie Fowler absolutely slated him in his book for his style of play.

Lemlin · 04-01-2006 9:56pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Eh coming from the man who hammered another poster on checking his sources, I'd rather not. Particularly when your little altercation was over a couple of hundred thousand pounds of a transfer fee.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a source or link to such an allegation made by yourself. I'm still to see adequate proof of "a lot" of Blackburn players saying that they were not "conditioned at all correctly" from you, but to be honest I didn't and don't really expect to ever get any.

If I am to be honest I would gladly get involved in another discussion about Souness and his ability as a manager. Once it wasn't with people with chips on their shoulders who constantly ignore the facts and post pure speculation and bullcrap opinions.

I'm not taking issue with what you think of Souness as a manager. Would you read what I said Lemlin (is there an echo in here?)? Hence I will not discredit (again) any invalid and completely aimless claim you or anyone else make about Souness and his lack or abundance of managerial ability.

But since it's commonplace to have to repeat again and again to you, I'm asking you for a link or a source to a pretty big allegation, and yet to be fully substantiated, that a lot of Blackburn players were "not conditioned at all" under Souness.

I know a guy that owns a pet store who may be happy to recommend a parrot if you were interested.

At last some sort of success! Thank you Rickylovesuall. The reports may be over a year old, but at least it's something to work with.

I wouldn't call a single player and the team manager "a lot of players" (like you did Lemlin), and I'm not a football expert but I would imagine players would be fitter in November rather than a couple of games into a season, but hey at least it's something!

Read the above. I'm not interested in another Souness appreciation thread. You obviously are so I'll leave you to it.

blobert · 04-01-2006 10:22pm

Well according to the Sun:

"Newcastle chairman Freddy Shepherd has lost patience with manager Graeme Souness and is set to sack him in the next 72 hours."

I really cant see him making it even to the end of the season, though unless they can find a suitable replacement, they may well hang on to him till then.

Rikand · 04-01-2006 10:26pm

True but that was also the Sun, which means he may also be given the freedom of newcastle city tomorrow morning

Jivin Turkey · 04-01-2006 10:52pm

Lemlin wrote:

Read the above. I'm not interested in another Souness appreciation thread. You obviously are so I'll leave you to it.

And again Lemlin, read what I said. I have no intention on entering into an argument on said topic with someone like you, who can't put across a reasonable and well informed point, who constantly ignores the fact, and spouts garbage regularly.

I have honestly laughed heartely at the thought of you attempting to take the moral highground here.

For the umpteenth time something will be have to be repeated again to you.

Do you have a link for your unsubstantiated and tabloid-esque claim?

Would you also like to purchase the parrot I offered? Or some ketchup for that chip on your shoulder?

Lemlin · 04-01-2006 11:00pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

And again Lemlin, read what I said. I have no intention on entering into an argument on said topic with someone like you, who can't put across a reasonable and well informed point, who constantly ignores the fact, and spouts garbage regularly.

I have honestly laughed heartely at the thought of you attempting to take the moral highground here.

For the umpteenth time something will be have to be repeated again to you.

Do you have a link for your unsubstantiated and tabloid-esque claim?

Would you also like to purchase the parrot I offered? Or some ketchup for that chip on your shoulder?

You are hugely WRONG here. You may find that hard to believe, and I fully expect you will. I just couldn't be arsed looking for links etc. I'm not aiming to take any moral high ground.

Four or five people have now backed up what I said. If that's not enough for ya, then its not.

Btw, you can't tell anything about someone's personality from an internet messageboard (and if you think you can, you need to get out more), so leave the comments such as "someone like you" to the big wide world.

I am glad I gave you a laugh though.

Jivin Turkey · 04-01-2006 11:13pm

Lemlin wrote:

You are hugely WRONG here. You may find that hard to believe, and I fully expect you will. I just couldn't be arsed looking for links etc. I'm not aiming to take any moral high ground.

You were asked to supply linkage to a pretty substantial claim. In response you supplied a link to a BBC radio show where Newcastle fans were expressing their dissatisfaction for their manager. Deadly. If anyone tried to bring it down the whether Souness is a good manager or not route it was you.

In general on this forum, if someone makes a big claim, and they are asked to back it up they do. It stops people coming out making rash and idiotic comments, and keeps the content of the forum up. I hope it stays that way.

Lemlin wrote:

Four or five people have now backed up what I said. If that's not enough for ya, then its not.

Four or five and I'd consider it. But unfortunately only two people have agreed with you. Only one has provided any sort of linkage, the other cited David "200 minutes of football in 8 months" Thompson as an example of the improved fitness. How are you still wondering why I am still a bit sceptical?

Also you said that a lot of players came out and said that they were not at all conditioned (i.e. completely unfit). Complete garbage.

Lemlin wrote:

Btw, you can't tell anything about someone's personality from an internet messageboard (and if you think you can, you need to get out more), so leave the comments such as "someone like you" to the big wide world.

I never claimed to know anything about your personality. I can tell from your posting style how informed your opinions are on some topics.

Lemlin wrote:

I am glad I gave you a laugh though.

Me too, it's the only reason you're not on ignore.

Lemlin · 04-01-2006 11:16pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

You were asked to supply linkage to a pretty substantial claim. In response you supplied a link to a BBC radio show where Newcastle fans were expressing their dissatisfaction for their manager. Deadly. If anyone tried to bring it down the whether Souness is a good manager or not route it was you.

In general on this forum, if someone makes a big claim, and they are asked to back it up they do. It stops people coming out making rash and idiotic comments, and keeps the content of the forum up. I hope it stays that way.

Four or five and I'd consider it. But unfortunately only two people have agreed with you. Only one has provided any sort of linkage, the other cited David "200 minutes of football in 8 months" Thompson as an example of the improved fitness. How are you still wondering why I am still a bit sceptical?

Also you said that a lot of players came out and said that they were not at all conditioned (i.e. completely unfit). Complete garbage.

I never claimed to know anything about your personality. I can tell from your posting style how informed your opinions are some some things.

Me too, it's the only reason your not on ignore.

Originally posted by Lemlin
I just couldn't be arsed looking for links etc. I'm not aiming to take any moral high ground.

And you're still going....

Jivin Turkey · 04-01-2006 11:17pm

Lemlin wrote:

And you're still going....

And you still have nothing in response, not for the first time, and not against the first poster.

Let me see what's the common component here...........

Lemlin · 04-01-2006 11:19pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

And you still have nothing in response, not for the first time, and not against the first poster.

Let me see what's the common component here...........

You still rabbiting on in some sort of quest for self-fulfillment perhaps?

Jivin Turkey · 04-01-2006 11:22pm

Lemlin wrote:

You still rabbiting on in some sort of quest for self-fulfillment perhaps?

I take it by your last few responses that you have nothing worthwhile in response to anything I've said. Don't worry every garbage claim you made is there in black and white.

Four or five people backing you up? Eh no. Two. One of whom used a shocking sort of example to illustrate his point.

Maybe I need to edit my sig

Triton · 05-01-2006 12:58am

Nope I think he just got sick of your rambling like the rest of us. As pointed out, I read the reports, Rickylovesuall read them and Lemlin read them. That's three people. One of the posters on that Newcastle forum had also heard them. That's four.

I'll also point you towards these two links about Newcastle fitness where Newcastle fans once more express opinions about Blackburn players, one mentioning Barry Ferguson, who have said they are fitter under Hughes.

His exact statement is: "Many Blackburn players have said that they are much fitter under Hughes than Souness." while the other fan states " a little worrying that several Blackburn players, past and present, the latest being Barry Ferguson, have made comments about the training regime under Souness compared with that under Mark Hughes and how they are much fitter under the new regime and enjoying training. In terms of fitness, we do seem like a spent force after 60 minutes, and in terms of mentality, we seem on edge, nervous and under pressure. Its almost as if the ball is like a hot potato, and each player in receipt tries to dispose of it as quickly as possible, but not in a positive methodical manner....."

http://uk.ask.com/fr?u=http%3A%2F%2Fs7.invisionfree.com%2Ftoonchat%2Far%2Ft3117.htm&s=a&bu=http%3A%2F%2Fuk.ask.com%2Fweb%3Fq%3DPlayers%2Bfitter%2Bunder%2BHughes%2Bthan%2BSouness%26o%3D41532606%26page%3D1%26dm%3Dlang&q=Players+fitter+under+Hughes+than+Souness&o=41532606&qt=0&ac=3&dm=lang&ma=Many%20Blackburn%20players%20have%20said%20that%20they%20are%20much%20fitter%20under%20Hughes%20than%20Souness.%20Bridget%20-%20December%2020%2C%202004%2007%3A27%20PM%20(GMT)&mt=Good%20point%20by%20.com%20(Toonchat)&mb=

http://uk.ask.com/fr?u=http%3A%2F%2Fs7.invisionfree.com%2Ftoonchat%2Far%2Ft2462.htm&s=a&bu=http%3A%2F%2Fuk.ask.com%2Fweb%3Fq%3DPlayers%2Bfitter%2Bunder%2BHughes%2Bthan%2BSouness%26o%3D41532606%26page%3D1%26dm%3Dlang&q=Players+fitter+under+Hughes+than+Souness&o=41532606&qt=0&ac=3&dm=lang&ma=...said%3A%20%E2%80%9CJose%20Mourinho%20told%20the%20players%20at%20...%20training%20regime%20under%20Souness%20compared%20with%20that%20under%20Mark%20Hughes%20and%20how%20they%20are%20much%20fitter&mt=What%20are%20we%20doing%20wrong%3F%20(Toonchat)&mb=

Sorry about the long links. I've no doubt you'll dismiss these also.

As for my claim you think is garbage, if Thompson had played 200 minutes football in eight months, it'd be 200 more than he played in the 8 months when Souness was manager and he was injured.

Blackburn also had to contend with long-term injuries to Barry Ferguson and Steven Reid while Souness was at the helm. Ferguson has looked the picture of health since Souness left Blackburn and when he moved to Rangers, while Reid looks to have gotten over his injuries.

Look at the list of Newcastle injuries. They've had problems in the past, but have they had anything this drastic? There's obviously something wrong somewhere.

You also say Souness has Newcastle at exactly the same level as when he took them on. Pardon me, but Newcastle were in Europe when Souness took them on, they sure as hell don't look like being in Europe this season? Or getting back there for a while.

Chucky the tree · 05-01-2006 1:25am

Triton wrote:

Look at the list of Newcastle injuries. They've had problems in the past, but have they had anything this drastic? There's obviously something wrong somewhere.

SO, whos to blame for liverpool injuries last year? rafa or houiller? OH no wait!!! it must of been souness' fault from he managed liverpool! My god its all coming together now!! :eek:

Triton · 05-01-2006 1:51am

The links have been provided, as asked. Liverpool had injury problems last year but I don't think they were as bad as Newcastle's. I also don't hear Stevie G or any of the Liverpool boys complaining about fitness problems under Houllier. Maybe they did but I didn't hear it.

Triton · 05-01-2006 2:18am

Have a look at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml;sessionid=1CVVWZ4FCYVS1QFIQMFCNAGAVCBQYJVC?xml=/sport/2005/03/18/sfnwin18.xml&sSheet=/sport/2005/03/18/ixfooty.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=22893

"Softly spoken but with a stare that could twist titanium, Hughes has implemented a quiet revolution within six months, guiding Blackburn to 14th place with 32 points, the same as Birmingham City. Rovers' players readily admit they are fitter, better organised, and tougher mentally. Graeme Souness's departure to Newcastle United has worked out well all round, reinvigorating Souness, St James' and Ewood.

And http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/050516/1/ay0q.html

It has been a huge learning experience for Hughes, who had never before experienced club management, and one he believes will leave him in good stead for next year.

He added: "When I came in we had two points and were 19th. I will always remember November 20th when we were bottom of the league and four games away from being bottom at Christmas. No-one wants to experience that - apart from West Brom because they got out!

"At times I thought we wouldn't be good enough to get out, but the way the players have applied themselves has enabled us to survive this year comfortably.

"They just needed a bit more structure. They were ready for change in style of management, maybe. The players were very receptive to everything we said. They became fitter and more resolute, more demanding of each other and as a result, the results improved.

"You learn a lot about yourself, you learn about the players you have and the limits of their ability and limits of mental strength.

"People have focused on the way we play and wrongly. That focus will always be there and it does discredit players. We do try and play the right way, we are competitive but we can play football."

And http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2093-1452219,00.html

Hughes took the job at Blackburn after failing to lead Wales to Euro 2004 — something he describes as the biggest disappointment of his career. He arrived at Ewood Park to discover that he had inherited a fragmented, demoralised dressing room, Graeme Souness having decamped to Newcastle in September with Rovers next to bottom in the table, rapidly losing purchase on the Premiership’s greasy pole.

“Within a few days of being here, I felt the team needed to be stronger and fitter,” Hughes said. “They weren’t demanding anything from each other. They accepted mediocrity, so I had to address that.

“I told the players that everything they did in training had to be done properly. Their work had to be of the correct standard. If it isn’t, training is stopped and they are firmly reminded what I expect from them. I did that from day one.

“Now, the training is a lot more vocal because we are demanding more of each other. My perception on taking over was that hard work was needed, and I set about making sure it was done.”

It all sounded suspiciously like his old headmaster’s voice. “I don’t know about that,” Hughes said, instantly aware of who was meant. “The great thing about Sir Alex is that he moves with the times. He doesn’t stay rooted in what he did 20 years ago, he’s very receptive to new ideas. He brings in new coaches to keep up to date. He’s always open-minded and I am, too. When I came here I emphasised to the coaching and medical staff that if they came to me with something they thought could improve the team and convinced me of it, then I’d introduce it. That promotes a feeling of progression and wanting to be innovative, which can only be good for the club.”

Hydrotherapy, which has the players plunging into freezing water for 30 seconds at a time, is one of Hughes’s innovations at Blackburn. “A lot of clubs do it now,” he says, “and if you fall behind in anything, you’re at a disadvantage in a game where one or two per cent is the difference between winning and losing. We’re looking for that edge all the time.”

And in the words of Steven Reid http://www.premierleague.com/fapl.rac?command=setSelectedId&nextPage=enNewsLatest&id=881831&type=com.fapl.website.news.NewsItem&categoryCode=NewsLatestFAPremierLeagueNews&breadcrumb=latestfa_breadcrumb

“Under Graeme I didn’t get a decent run, although I appreciate there were times when he went for more experience when we were battling away in my first season [2003/04].

“Then I broke my foot and the manager went, but Mark has added confidence to my game, as well as the team in general. He has come in and made us fitter and stronger.

“In the second half of the season in particular, Mark pushed me into the middle, giving me a freer reign to attack and I have really enjoyed that.

Or in the words of Andy Todd: http://www.football365.com/news/premiership_news/story_146591.shtml

"The gaffer's come in, made us fitter and put some mental toughness into us too."

Have I made my point yet or would you like some more?

Rikand · 05-01-2006 3:41am

Lemlin · 05-01-2006 12:15pm

Originally posted by Jivin Turkey
Maybe I need to edit my sig

I'll bet all the ladies love it when you make such tough threats

And actually, every "gargbage" claim I made, as you put it, is not there in black and white, its there in bold black thanks to Triton. Looks like we know who had the "informed" opinion here and who didn't.

Jivin Turkey · 05-01-2006 7:22pm

Triton wrote:

Have I made my point yet or would you like some more?

No it's grand because at last we have some proper linkage, instead of here-say and completely incorrect examples. Thanks very much.

Just because however Hughes obviously adopts a more fitness based approach to his team, I still wouldn't say the Souness completely disregards that side of the game, which was the original point I took issue with.

Lemlin wrote:

And actually, every "gargbage" claim I made, as you put it, is not there in black and white, its there in bold black thanks to Triton. Looks like we know who had the "informed" opinion here and who didn't.

Eh no, you claimed that a lot of the BB players said they were completely unconditioned (i.e. completely unfit) under Souness. Nothing has been posted to suggest this is the case.

Yes a couple of team members have come out and said they feel fitter under Hughes, but that does by no means indicate that they were completely unfit (as your original claim suggested) under Souness.

Lemlin · 05-01-2006 8:43pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

No it's grand because at last we have some proper linkage, instead of here-say and completely incorrect examples. Thanks very much.

Just because however Hughes obviously adopts a more fitness based approach to his team, I still wouldn't say the Souness completely disregards that side of the game, which was the original point I took issue with.

Eh no, you claimed that a lot of the BB players said they were completely unconditioned (i.e. completely unfit) under Souness. Nothing has been posted to suggest this is the case.

Yes a couple of team members have come out and said they feel fitter under Hughes, but that does by no means indicate that they were completely unfit (as your original claim suggested) under Souness.

To take your approach on this, a couple - that's Andy Todd, Brett Emerton, Steven Reid, Barry Ferguson and the new manager. More than a couple there. Btw, I did not say they were "completely unconditioned" (thanks for trying to twist that though). I said they were "not at all conditioned correctly". Big difference. Obviously Souness was training them but not in the correct manner, as the Blackburn players point out by saying that they were fitter, stronger and mentally tougher after he left.

Even Hughes points out "They accepted mediocrity, so I had to address that". Maybe that's why 50 million or so worth of new talent at Newcastle just isn't performing, because Souness allows them too to accept mediocrity.

I imagine the next manager at Newcastle will arrive to find yet another "fragmented, demoralised dressing room".

Still, you keep your head in the sand. Souness obviously has the best training regime in the land

At least you've got down off your high horse. That's something anyway.

Now, if you're finished with your rantings, I'll leave you to appreciate Souness on your own, like I wanted to do several posts ago.

Triton · 05-01-2006 9:22pm

I guess that's as close to him admitting that he was totally wrong that we'll get.

Chucky the tree · 05-01-2006 9:39pm

Triton wrote:

I guess that's as close to him admitting that he was totally wrong that we'll get.

How excactly was he wrong? all he did was ask lemlin to back up what he said with links. He didnt do this, and instead waited for someone else to do it.

ALso, this is what lemlin said.

Lemlin wrote:

Alot of the Blackburn players say that they weren't conditioned at all correctly

Still yet to see any links where player said they "werent conditioned at all correctly"

There always an awful smell of tabloid-stlye ****e from lemlins psots. Maybe he works for the Sun.

Lemlin · 05-01-2006 9:49pm

Chucky the tree wrote:

How excactly was he wrong? all he did was ask lemlin to back up what he said with links. He didnt do this, and instead waited for someone else to do it.

ALso, this is what lemlin said.

Still yet to see any links where player said they "werent conditioned at all correctly"

There always an awful smell of tabloid-stlye ****e from lemlins psots. Maybe he works for the Sun.

Yes, because as I said, I knew the truth, I couldn't be bothered looking for links, I had nothing to prove. This has been shown.

How was he wrong? He said there was no links and this was all tablod bull. Read the links provided above, are they from tabloids? No, that's how he was wrong. Maybe he should learn to appreciate other people's opinion's before dismissing them as "complete garbage".

Yes, the fact that another manager stated the players "accepted mediocrity" in training and that he more or less changed their entire training regime, shows the wonders of Souness' own system. How many Blackburn players have been missing with long-term injuries since Souness left?

Just look at the results of Blackburn now compared to when Souness was manager. Hughes has only brought in a few new players that feature regularly, the hub of the team remains the same.

How exactly were they conditioned correctly if another manager could come in and, in a matter of months, make them fitter, stronger and mentally tougher?

Maybe I do work for The Sun. Or, worse still, maybe The Herald

Chucky the tree · 05-01-2006 9:58pm

Lemlin wrote:

Yes, because as I said, I knew the truth, I couldn't be bothered looking for links, I had nothing to prove. This has been shown.

Hughes hates black people, and said they should be gassed.

Oh sure i dont need to provide links, i know its the truth! :rolleyes:

Lemlin wrote:

How was he wrong? He said there was no links and this was all tablod bull. Read the links provided above, are they from tabloids? No, that's how he was wrong.

Yes, the fact that another manager stated the players "accepted mediocrity" in training and that he more or less changed their entire training regime, shows the wonders of Souness' own system. How many Blackburn players have been missing with long-term injuries since Souness left?

Just look at the results of Blackburn now compared to when Souness was manager. Hughes has only brought in a few new players that feature regularly, the hub of the team remains the same.

How exactly were they conditioned correctly if another manager could come in and, in a matter of months, make them fitter, stronger and mentally tougher?

Maybe I do work for The Sun. Or, worse still, maybe The Herald

Different managers do different things. Hughes concentrated on there fitness and strength cos he wanted his players to run around and kick the **** out of the oppisition for the whole game. Thats not SOuness style.

In time Hughes will be failing with blackburn and will be out the dorr. A new manager will come in and "freshen" things up, and people will say "oh look what he did with the squad hughes had, hughes must be a **** manager!".

Lemlin · 05-01-2006 10:03pm

Chucky the tree wrote:

Hughes hates black people, and said they should be gassed.

Oh sure i dont need to provide links, i know its the truth! :rolleyes:

Different managers do different things. Hughes concentrated on there fitness and strength cos he wanted his players to run around and kick the **** out of the oppisition for the whole game. Thats not SOuness style.

In time Hughes will be failing with blackburn and will be out the dorr. A new manager will come in and "freshen" things up, and people will say "oh look what he did with the squad hughes had, hughes must be a **** manager!".

Your attempt at dismissing my lack of interest wasn't very good. Like I told Jivin Turkey, I have better things to do than thralling the net looking for links, especially after two people had already backed me up.

I'd check your facts there too. Have a look at the fair play table and see exactly where Newcastle are on it. Also, have you seen Newcastle play lately? I suggest you have a look at Alan Shearer's expolits against Arsenal for a case point.

As of the 30th of November, which is the last time I can find a fair league table for, Newcastle had a rating of 7.91, exactly the same as Blackburn's. That's an improvement on Blackburn last year but Newcastle have moved down the table. Wouldn't want to leave you without a link: http://www.premierleague.com/public/downloads/publications/Fair_Play_Nov_05.pdf

Blackburn's discipline has improved under Hughes, Newcastle's under Souness has gone the other way, so I think we know which manager liked his players to run around kicking the sh^t out of others. And, mark my words, the only time Hughes will leave Blackburn is if its to a bigger and better club.

Villain · 05-01-2006 10:06pm

Emm the topic is about Souness and Carr??

Corben Dallas · 05-01-2006 10:06pm

Read in Racing post today that Sounes is likely to be sacked very shortly, hes also went to the top of the next Prem manager to be sacked list with odds slashed from 4-1 to 4/6....HHHmmmm might stick a few €'s on it.

Chucky the tree · 05-01-2006 10:08pm

Lemlin wrote:

Your attempt at dismissing my lack of interest wasn't very good. Like I told Jivin Turkey, I have better things to do than thralling the net looking for links, especially after two people had already backed me up.

I'd check your facts there too. Have a look at the fair play table and see exactly where Newcastle are on it. Also, have you seen Newcastle play lately? I suggest you have a look at Alan Shearer's expolits against Arsenal for a case point.

Blackburn's discipline has improved under Hughes. And, mark my words, the only time Hughes will leave Blackburn is if its to a bigger and better club.

Oh fair play table, well then, if there not top of that then there defintily not a dirty team!

Lemlin · 05-01-2006 10:19pm

Chucky the tree wrote:

Oh fair play table, well then, if there not top of that then there defintily not a dirty team!

I never said they weren't a dirty team. I said their discipline has improved. Apart from the Spurs match this season though, I can't think of any game where Blackburn have let themselves down. Can you?

Did you see the Portsmouth game Monday night? I didn't see any malicious play by Blackburn players in it. Portsmouth were the ones with the tackles flying in. This topic has nothing to do with Blackburn though. You claimed Hughes tries to get his players to run around kicking people, the evidence suggests that it was Souness who preferred this method.

Btw, you never addressed my point of Newcastle's disciplinary record under Souness. I think you are the one making tabloid claims here, going down the old route of calling Blackburn "Blackeye Rovers". Do you work for the Mirror?

Lemlin · 05-01-2006 10:25pm

irish1 wrote:

Emm the topic is about Souness and Carr??

Yes, but it was dragged off topic when a few people weren't happy with claims I made that some of Newcastle's injury problems could be down to Graeme Souness' training regimes.

The Muppet · 05-01-2006 11:40pm

Just another to add to the list of players that Souness has had a public falling out with. Souness was appointed to sort out the diciplinary problems in the Newcastle squad which he has done to a degree, at least they are not punching each other during games now. I,m not his biggest fan and I would question his man management skills but his team has been very unlucky with injuries.

Carr looked like he had the makings of an excellent player at one stage but he never really fulfilled that potential.

zAbbo · 05-01-2006 11:47pm

Have Villa not had more injury problems, but we don't see DOL giving sky sports interviews about how unlucky his side are and how hes not going to 'walk away'

Necronomicon · 05-01-2006 11:56pm

zabbo wrote:

Have Villa not had more injury problems, but we don't see DOL giving sky sports interviews about how unlucky his side are and how hes not going to 'walk away'

Are you serious? David O' Leary has sounded like a broken record talking about how small his squad is in the last 2 years.
Souness has been unlucky with injuries, but unfotunately that can't carry him forever, I could see change in the summer if they don't finish in a high position. I don't see any reason why he would be sacked before the summer though, new manager would have the same injury problems to hinder their chances of doing really well, and they aren't in any immediate danger either.

Triton · 06-01-2006 11:39am

He had to close their training ground before Christmas because so many players had a virus. Villa look to be getting back on track now though.

Big Nelly · 06-01-2006 1:31pm

Necromomicon wrote:

Are you serious? David O' Leary has sounded like a broken record talking about how small his squad is in the last 2 years.

Yeah and Villa do have one if not the smallest squad in the PL. Also there whole central defence has injury problem but they are more or less level on points with newcastle. Also DoL didnt spend over 50 million in the summer and lost his best winger and play of the season from last season to Newcastle. I bet Solano wishes he was back at Villa

Triton · 06-01-2006 8:35pm

Originally posted by Jivin Turkey
Would you also like to purchase the parrot I offered? Or some ketchup for that chip on your shoulder?

To keep with your string of metaphors, how about some cream for that humble pie you're now eating?

Originally posted by Big Nelly
Yeah and Villa do have one if not the smallest squad in the PL. Also there whole central defence has injury problem but they are more or less level on points with newcastle. Also DoL didnt spend over 50 million in the summer and lost his best winger and play of the season from last season to Newcastle. I bet Solano wishes he was back at Villa

That's very true about Villa. This Summer was the first time that O'Leary got money to spend. When they are taken over by the Comer brothers, two Meath men like myself, hopefully he'll have some cash.

Souness was saying today that Newcastle have no money to spend this January. Wasn't the 50 million in the Summer enough?

Jivin Turkey · 06-01-2006 8:54pm

Lemlin,

Your original claim that I took issue with was that BB players said that "they weren't conditioned at all correctly". I asked you to support links, and it is the norm on this forum that one does if asked to back up what is a pretty substantial claim.

You still havn't submitted one valid link yourself. Others have linked numerous sites that show that a few member of the BB squad feel fitter and stronger. To which I thanked the posters. And I would again.

But I've still to see link supporting your claim that the players felt that they were not "conditioned at all correctly". Being a bit fitter under a new manager and not being "conditioned at all correctly" are two entirely different things.

You are spouting tabloid garbage, yes garbage, exaggerated turd, because you have some chip on your shoulder against Souness.

Triton wrote:

To keep with your string of metaphors, how about some cream for that humble pie you're now eating?

Why would I need humble pie? I asked a poster for links to which he refused to do. In fact I got a reply "I couldn't be bothered", when only one sinlge person had supported his statement by the time I posed the question.

Hence I got suspicious as to his claims' authenticity (Unreasonable? I dont think so). I've still to see him support his claim. Some BB players feel fitter under Hughes, I havn't seen one come out and say they were unconditioned under Souness.

Thank's for your links though.

Lemlin · 06-01-2006 9:00pm

As I said above....

The fact that another manager stated the players "accepted mediocrity" in training and that he more or less changed their entire training regime, shows the wonders of Souness' own system. How many Blackburn players have been missing with long-term injuries since Souness left? Compare it to how many had injury problems while he was at the club and you'll see what I mean.

Just look at the results of Blackburn now compared to when Souness was manager. Hughes has only brought in a few new players that feature regularly, the hub of the team remains the same.

How exactly were they conditioned correctly if another manager could come in and, in a matter of months, make them fitter, stronger and mentally tougher? Does that not show that they were not correctly conditioned at all?

The Muppet · 06-01-2006 10:38pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Lemlin,
You still havn't submitted one valid link yourself. Others have linked numerous sites that show that a few member of the BB squad feel fitter and stronger. To which I thanked the posters. And I would again.

But I've still to see link supporting your claim that the players felt that they were not "conditioned at all correctly". Being a bit fitter under a new manager and not being "conditioned at all correctly" are two entirely different things.

You are spouting tabloid garbage, yes garbage, exaggerated turd, because you have some chip on your shoulder against Souness.

Why would I need humble pie? I asked a poster for links to which he refused to do. In fact I got a reply "I couldn't be bothered", when only one sinlge person had supported his statement by the time I posed the question.

Hence I got suspicious as to his claims' authenticity (Unreasonable? I dont think so). I've still to see him support his claim. Some BB players feel fitter under Hughes, I havn't seen one come out and say they were unconditioned under Souness.

Thank's for your links though.

Yawn, there are plenty of sources for information besides the internet you know, Not everything can be linked to. Some users insistance on links for every single point is pedantic.

Jivin Turkey · 07-01-2006 5:51am

Lemlin,

I have no intention of entering a debate with you on Graeme Souness's managerial ability so don't bother wasting your breath. When you decide to enter an adults discussion I will consider it.

Lemlin wrote:

As I said above....

Face facts, you grossly exaggerated your first claim, which was the one I questioned you on.

I fully accept that a lot of BB players feel fitter under Hughes, after all it's there in black and white. So about time you retract your idiotic claim that under Souness BB player were "not conditioned at all correctly". After all they reached the UEFA Cup through the league under his "conditioning".

You made a tabloid-esque claim, as a result of the chip on your shoulder, thats what I have a problem with.

The Muppet wrote:

Yawn, there are plenty of sources for information besides the internet you know, Not everything can be linked to. Some users insistance on links for every single point is pedantic.

Not everything can be linked to? Well to be honest, any newsworthy story can be linked on the internet, it's the joy of the modern age.

As for your last line, shut the hell up. I never insist that everyone provide a link to every bit of info provided, but I expect that if someone were to make a claim or speculate, that they are prepared to back it up if asked.

As I said, it keeps the content of the forum high. I fail to see the problem, I asked Lemlin to link his claim, he refused to do so. Hence I questioned the authenticity of his claim.

I understand why you have your knickers in a twist over this, because you suffered the same fate a couple of weeks ago. But to be honest, people who don't back up claims when asked (or don't admit if they were wrong) deserve no respect. Not that you would know anything about that TheMuppet.

Lemlin · 07-01-2006 10:49am

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Lemlin,

I have no intention of entering a debate with you on Graeme Souness's managerial ability so don't bother wasting your breath. When you decide to enter an adults discussion I will consider it.

Face facts, you grossly exaggerated your first claim, which was the one I questioned you on.

I fully accept that a lot of BB players feel fitter under Hughes, after all it's there in black and white. So about time you retract your idiotic claim that under Souness BB player were "not conditioned at all correctly". After all they reached the UEFA Cup through the league under his "conditioning".

You made a tabloid-esque claim, as a result of the chip on your shoulder, thats what I have a problem with.

Not everything can be linked to? Well to be honest, any newsworthy story can be linked on the internet, it's the joy of the modern age.

As for your last line, shut the hell up. I never insist that everyone provide a link to every bit of info provided, but I expect that if someone were to make a claim or speculate, that they are prepared to back it up if asked.

As I said, it keeps the content of the forum high. I fail to see the problem, I asked Lemlin to link his claim, he refused to do so. Hence I questioned the authenticity of his claim.

I understand why you have your knickers in a twist over this, because you suffered the same fate a couple of weeks ago. But to be honest, people who don't back up claims when asked (or don't admit if they were wrong) deserve no respect. Not that you would know anything about that TheMuppet.

I am not entering a debate on Souness' managerial career. This debate is about his training style and that was what I highlighted in my post above. As I said, if his players were willing to "accept mediocrity", what does that say about his training system?

It is not an idiotic statement. You keep going back to the fact that they were fitter. You seem to want to ignore the fact that they said they were stronger and mentally tougher.

You have also dismissed my claim as saying that I said players were "completely unfit". "Not conditioned at all correctly" is what I said. If you read that statement, I am saying that they were conditioned, but very poorly.

And where is your evidence that they were conditioned correctly? You have also failed to answer a number of my queries. First off, as I asked, how many Blackburn players have suffered from long-term injuries, like many did while he was at the club (Barry Ferguson, Steven Reid, Lorenzo Amoruso etc.), since he left the club? Compare the list of how many have suffered from long-term injuries under Hughes to that and you'll see what I mean.

Also, as I asked above, how could a new manager make players fitter, stronger and mentally tougher, in a matter of months if they were training correctly, and were conditioned properly?

Why would players be accepting "mediocrity" in training if a worthwhile systenm was in place?

Your one piece of backup is that they reached the UEFA Cup, through the league, under his conditioning. I'm not sure if you are familiar with Souness' Newcastle career, but he took over last September and the club were well out of the UEFA Cup spots last year. You give us weekly reminders of how many points they are away this year but I still can't see them making it.

So, how about you address some of those points instead of ignoring them and dismissing this as "a chip on my shoulder" and refusing the facts. A couple of users have now showed backing for my opinion, but you continue to dismiss it.

And I would also prefer if you did not attempt to take the moral high ground, which you accused me of earlier. No-one appointed you the voice of reason for this forum so I'm not sure why you wnat to take that mantle. I was happy to leave this discussion long ago but you have continued dragging me back into it. You are also the one user here who has broken the charter - telling another user to "shut the hell up", no matter what your opinion of their view, is not acceptable.

And no, I'm not taking any moral high ground, I'm going by the charter which says there should be "no outbursts of personal abuse".

Jivin Turkey · 08-01-2006 3:55pm

Lemlin wrote:

As I said, if his players were willing to "accept mediocrity", what does that say about his training system?

Not a lot IMO. His motivational techniques maybe, but not his training methods.

Lemlin wrote:

It is not an idiotic statement. You keep going back to the fact that they were fitter. You seem to want to ignore the fact that they said they were stronger and mentally tougher.

I accept said fact.

Lemlin wrote:

You have also dismissed my claim as saying that I said players were "completely unfit". "Not conditioned at all correctly" is what I said. If you read that statement, I am saying that they were conditioned, but very poorly.

I cannot understand how a manager could remain in a job for five (?) seasons while "not conditioning his team at all correctly". Particularly as they improved greatly in his first few years.

Lemlin wrote:

And where is your evidence that they were conditioned correctly?

Surely the level the team was performing at (for a number of years) is evidence that they must have been conditioned at least adequately.

Lemlin wrote:

You have also failed to answer a number of my queries. First off, as I asked, how many Blackburn players have suffered from long-term injuries, like many did while he was at the club (Barry Ferguson, Steven Reid, Lorenzo Amoruso etc.), since he left the club? Compare the list of how many have suffered from long-term injuries under Hughes to that and you'll see what I mean.

Didn't Ferguson and Reid break bones? I would hardly put that down to a lack of conditioning.

I don't know how many BB playesr have been struck down with long term injuries this year, but I do know that say Bellamy has been in and out of the side with niggling injuries, which I would associate more with lack of conditioning than bone breaks.

Lemlin wrote:

Also, as I asked above, how could a new manager make players fitter, stronger and mentally tougher, in a matter of months if they were training correctly, and were conditioned properly?

New manager, new ideas, new enthusiasm. Souness had obviously lost the backing of some of his players. A new manager freshened things up from the off. Still doesn't equate to Souness not conditioning his players IMO.

Lemlin wrote:

Why would players be accepting "mediocrity" in training if a worthwhile systenm was in place?

Because they had lost the will to fight for their manager?

Lemlin wrote:

And I would also prefer if you did not attempt to take the moral high ground, which you accused me of earlier. No-one appointed you the voice of reason for this forum so I'm not sure why you wnat to take that mantle. I was happy to leave this discussion long ago but you have continued dragging me back into it. You are also the one user here who has broken the charter - telling another user to "shut the hell up", no matter what your opinion of their view, is not acceptable.

And no, I'm not taking any moral high ground, I'm going by the charter which says there should be "no outbursts of personal abuse".

Not taking the moral highground and quoting the charter in the same post? Okey dokey.

I apologise to TheMuppet if my response to his post was a bit over-zealous. There was probably no need to use such strong language, but I fail to see how I was getting personal telling him to shut up, particularly when it was implied that I was the one being pedantic.

I don't feel we will align our views on this matter Lemlin. The whole argument kicked off on the back of you refusing to back up your claim, a generally accepted courtesy if asked on the forum. I've fully accepted that some of the players feel fitter and mentally tougher under Hughes. I still feel that your claim that they were "not conditioned at all correctly" is very wide of the mark, exaggerated and tabloid-eque, spawned by your dislike of the man as opposed to actual football matters.

I cannot understand how a manager could hold his job (and take the team so high) for such a long period with his team allegedy so unprepared.

The Muppet · 08-01-2006 5:37pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I apologise to TheMuppet if my response to his post was a bit over-zealous. There was probably no need to use such strong language, but I fail to see how I was getting personal telling him to shut up, particularly when it was implied that I was the one being pedantic.

No bother, My comments about links was directed at the board in general and not any particular user. I just used your post to support it. There are plenty of sources of information that can not be linked to. Respect is a two way street.

Lemlin · 14-01-2006 9:36pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Not a lot IMO. His motivational techniques maybe, but not his training methods.

I accept said fact.

I cannot understand how a manager could remain in a job for five (?) seasons while "not conditioning his team at all correctly". Particularly as they improved greatly in his first few years.

Surely the level the team was performing at (for a number of years) is evidence that they must have been conditioned at least adequately.

Didn't Ferguson and Reid break bones? I would hardly put that down to a lack of conditioning.

I don't know how many BB playesr have been struck down with long term injuries this year, but I do know that say Bellamy has been in and out of the side with niggling injuries, which I would associate more with lack of conditioning than bone breaks.

New manager, new ideas, new enthusiasm. Souness had obviously lost the backing of some of his players. A new manager freshened things up from the off. Still doesn't equate to Souness not conditioning his players IMO.

Because they had lost the will to fight for their manager?

Not taking the moral highground and quoting the charter in the same post? Okey dokey.

I apologise to TheMuppet if my response to his post was a bit over-zealous. There was probably no need to use such strong language, but I fail to see how I was getting personal telling him to shut up, particularly when it was implied that I was the one being pedantic.

I don't feel we will align our views on this matter Lemlin. The whole argument kicked off on the back of you refusing to back up your claim, a generally accepted courtesy if asked on the forum. I've fully accepted that some of the players feel fitter and mentally tougher under Hughes. I still feel that your claim that they were "not conditioned at all correctly" is very wide of the mark, exaggerated and tabloid-eque, spawned by your dislike of the man as opposed to actual football matters.

I cannot understand how a manager could hold his job (and take the team so high) for such a long period with his team allegedy so unprepared.

Couldn't resist ressurecting this one after the piece I just saw on The Premiership. You may take the fight about how Souness conditions (the exact word used) his players up with Eamonn Dunphy Jivin

radiospan · 14-01-2006 9:47pm

Lemlin wrote:

Yes, but it was dragged off topic when a few people weren't happy with claims I made that some of Newcastle's injury problems could be down to Graeme Souness' training regimes.

Dunphy was suggesting this very point on The Premiership tonight. Dunphy says that he has a history of his players getting hamstring injuries especially.

Big Nelly · 14-01-2006 9:54pm

Haha, you got to this before me. Was just watching Premiership as well and was laughing when I heard Dunphy go on about Souness. Maybe he is reading boards and just quoting what he see on here

Triton · 18-01-2006 8:17pm

Originally posted by Jivin Turkey
Why would I need humble pie? I asked a poster for links to which he refused to do. In fact I got a reply "I couldn't be bothered", when only one sinlge person had supported his statement by the time I posed the question.

Hence I got suspicious as to his claims' authenticity (Unreasonable? I dont think so). I've still to see him support his claim. Some BB players feel fitter under Hughes, I havn't seen one come out and say they were unconditioned under Souness.

Thank's for your links though.

Interesting to see that you have nothing to say regarding Dunphy's comments, and the fact that he supports Lemlin's, and a few other people's opinions, that Souness can't condition players properly.

Guess that humble pie has got stuck in your throat

Jivin Turkey · 19-01-2006 12:47am

Triton wrote:

Interesting to see that you have nothing to say regarding Dunphy's comments, and the fact that he supports Lemlin's, and a few other people's opinions, that Souness can't condition players properly.

Guess that humble pie has got stuck in your throat

Not really interesting at all. I couldn't care less about what Dunphy thinks on matters football.

Are you trying to insinuate that Dunphy actually deserves respect based on his knowledge of the game?

"If Eamonn Dunphy said it, it must be true!"

Big Nelly · 19-01-2006 9:41am

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Not really interesting at all. I couldn't care less about what Dunphy thinks on matters football.

Are you trying to insinuate that Dunphy actually deserves respect based on his knowledge of the game?

"If Eamonn Dunphy said it, it must be true!"

Sounds like sour grapes to me. Seems everyone in football knows that Souness can't correctly condition players.

Seems thou a lost cause trying to convince you so you go on and believe what you want and watch Newcastle crumble around him

Carr and Sourness in bust up?

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