Birds

Le Rack

OKay, my great uncle was found dead today, My mam was talking to Nan earlier who had been talking to her sister in law, my GU's sister who told her that a pigeon had hit the window and died the previous day, yesterday, and she told Nan that there would be a death of someone close to us. Following day, her brother is found dead.

Apparently on the night that a nephew, I think, of hers died, a crowe flew right into her house and she said that there would be a death in the family. MY mam distinctly remembers this cuz the chap was her cousin and then it happened so soon after...

I've heard of different animal activity being slightly profetic, birds included but don't know any full things about it.

So basically, do birds have some weird connection to deaths and that or is my great aunt in law just a tad spooky?

(Sorry that was so confusing btw!)

Matthewthebig

no they don't

Nevyn

I'd suggest that this topic maybe better suited to the spirituality forum then the Paranormal forum.

Some family have a connection or a tradition of birds hitting the house or being in the house pior or as a warning of the death of a member of the family.

luckat

This is a classic of "superstitious behaviour". Behavioural scientists identify superstitious behaviour as the identification of two unrelated things.

For instance, dolphins being trained in a pool will always hang around one particular spot in the pool (each dolphin usually choosing its own favourite spot), apparently convinced unconsciously that they're more likely to get a free fish if they're in that spot.

Poker players and actors will only play if they're wearing their lucky green-spotted underpants or carrying their 1957 leath-réal.

Apparently this kind of behaviour gets built up when two unrelated happenings coincide, and we convince ourselves that there's really a connection. So, for instance, people smoke for the first time in a social situation, and they associate the gradual relaxation that happens naturally with the fact that they were smoking when it happened - and later they think they have to smoke to be socially relaxed.

It would be good to know that there actually was a connection, because we might then have some semblance of control in a random world - even if it's "I can go under a ladder if i think of a white cow's tail". But (while there's nothing wrong with happily going along with those rituals for fun), alas it's not so.

Very sorry for your trouble, Le Rack.

Le Rack

Superstition! That's the word!
Sorry...
Yeah, I'd heard of weird things like and apparently my great aunt has always been "A bit of an auld witch" in the nicest possible way!
Thanx anyway!

stevenmu

One of Stephen King's books 'The Dark Side' makes heavy use of the fact that some cultures (native american in this case I think) see black birds, I think it was ravens in the book, as harbingers of death. iirc they would appear when someone was going to die, to carry their soul across. That's about all I remember from it tbh.

patzer117

i remember talking to my granny about all that kinda stuff - ravens outside the house, banshee's wailing and pictures falling off walls. By far the weirdest though was when on Christmas 1996 the electricity in our house turned off (no oven, no fridge, no heat, but the lights stayed on, and none of the neighbours had any problems, and we couldn't figure anything out (after unplugging everything in the house). that night my granddad died. Three months later the same thing happened and the following day my great uncle died. i was freaked of any power cuts for quite a while after.

does anyone else have any weird stories like that or anything?

solas

luckcat wrote:

This is a classic of "superstitious behaviour". Behavioural scientists identify superstitious behaviour as the identification of two unrelated things.

I'd appreciate it if you could you provide links to scientific evidence when referencing to supports your claims.

For millenia humans have lived very much in harmony with nature and consequently have recognised significance in such a relationship. Animal divination is a common aspect in cultures all over the world from native american to celtic.

try and keep it on topic, the original question is in relation to birds, not ladders or pictures falling off walls.

luckat

I'll have a look for some links, solus.

Have to say that, attractive though the idea of birds flinging themselves to their death to announce my demise is to my amour-propre, I can't see them being quite so selfless.

Sure, people and other animals have connections. Just not this one, I suspect!

Here's the University of Iowa's psychology department's defintion of superstitious behavior, followed by a couple of other scientific links and a couple that are just fun:

http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/wasserman/Glossary/Superstitious%20behavior.html
http://employees.csbsju.edu/tcreed/pb/pbterms.html
http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15324834basp2701_7
http://careerfocus.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/325/7364/S83
http://evolution.massey.ac.nz/assign2/CM/oper.html

magnumlady

My mum was always saying that a bird inthe house signified a death, but we've had loads of birds come in and no one died.

solas

luckcat wrote:

Have to say that, attractive though the idea of birds flinging themselves to their death to announce my demise is to my amour-propre, I can't see them being quite so selfless.

I'm pretty sure the significance is symbolic and not a case of nature sacrificing itself in order to prepare your soul.

I was checking out some links earlier on, one of which you posted and I thought it was interesting.

Superstitious behavior. Most of our behavior is functional, in that there is a causal relationship between the behavior and its consequences. But we all engage in some forms of nonfunctional behavior, in that there is no causal relationship between the behavior and reinforcement, but we do it anyway. Behaviorists call this nonfunctional behavior superstitious. Many culturally generated superstitions are well known, such as knocking on wood to keep bad luck from happening, carrying a rabbit's foot for good luck, or avoiding stepping on cracks (stepping on one would supposedly break your mother's back--oops. Sorry Mom!). Other superstitions are idiosyncratic, in that they derive solely from the personal experience of the individual. What they all have in common is that their maintenance derives from the fact that at one time there was an accidental relationship (temporal contiguity) between the behavioral and some important consequence. So, if superstitious behavior, in which there is temporal contiguity but not contingency, occurs, then contiguity by itself is a sufficient condition for conditioning to occur. A classic demonstration of superstition in the laboratory was performed by B.F. Skinner in 1948.

it provides a link to a scientific experiement which offers "evidence" to back up the theory.
you can find that here

I wanted to be sure that the topic remain connected to animal divination and not get swayed into the area of walking under ladders. In my opinion there is a vast difference. The latter being something of an urban legend rather than anything based in cultural traditions.

Our elders recognised a sentience within nature and evidently derived symbolism from this connection. Ultimately it shows a respect for nature and our surroundings, which seems to have almost vanished from the planet. The old ways where we listened to the "voice" within nature seem much wiser on reflection and something I couldn't personally consider as a non functioning behavior.

Phase 1 -- Rats are divided into the following three groups:
Group 1 -- Emitic drug will be given after Phase 2, rats get sick ½ hr. later.
Group 2 -- X-rays will be given after Phase 2, rats get sick ½ hr. later.
Group 3 -- Each lick during Phase 2 is followed by a painful electric shock.

whereas this experiment seems to have no issues with sacrificing nature in an effort to validate something which I can only consider as demising to humanity's amour-propre.

luckat

I agree with you, Solas. Using cruelty to animals to test a scientific point is an abuse of both the animal and the human.

Zombrex

solas wrote:

The latter being something of an urban legend rather than anything based in cultural traditions.

I would point out a few things -

Technically walking under a ladder is not an urban legend, neither is the idea that a bird flying into a window means death. Both these things are superstitions, or to give them a cultural name "Old Wives Talls", and they are very related to each other in how they come about and spread through culture.

The not walking under the ladder has roots in the Holy Trinity and Christianity, and has also been linked to public hangings.

A bird flying into a house signifying death a superstition dating from before the middle ages, linked to the wider idea that any event out of the ordinary, that causes fright to those in the house, signifies trouble is on the way. This "trouble", and the bird flying inside specifically, eventually got tied to death.

This superstition is very similar to a black cat crossing your path or the breaking of a mirror.

It has very little to do with the idea of balance with nature or accient respect for other animals. In fact during the Black Death medieval people used to kill cats by the truck load because they believed they brought bad luck. Ironically what they actually did was kill the rats that spread the plague.

Accient ties with nature, such as the Eyptians and Native Americans, might be a topic that is quite interesting, but it doesn't really relate to the OPs original post which is clearly about superstitions, so I would suggest (politely since you are a mod ) it is a topic for another thread.

Nevyn

Supersitisions or signs and portents it depends on your point of view.

Walking under a ladder is just good sense for sonething may drop from above down on to you, water, paint, a hammer, a bucket or you gould jostle the ladder knocking some one off it.

Birds hitting the house or being in the house ( not pets :P ) has been a sign
of a death in some familys same as a picture falling off the wall.
In other families there are more unsual portents such as the black dog, the wailing, the knock at the door, the black coach/car and the Bean Sidhe.

solas

wicknight wrote:

Technically walking under a ladder is not an urban legend, neither is the idea that a bird flying into a window means death. Both these things are superstitions, or to give them a cultural name "Old Wives Talls", and they are very related to each other in how they come about and spread through culture.

this is the third time I've stated this, this thread is to remain on topic. The topic has sfa to do with walking under ladders or breaking mirror or touching wood, the only link between the two are the terms superstition which have been imposed.

The not walking under the ladder has roots in the Holy Trinity and Christianity, and has also been linked to public hangings.

as I've already stated provide some links to back up your claims.

From here:walking under ladders has been bad luck for hundreds of years. Ladders have been considered the spiritual ascent to heaven.
or here
I think there is this idea out there, promoted by the media, that all these superstitions have survived from ancient fertility rites or pre-Christian sacrifice - 1200 years before they were ever recorded by anyone, anywhere! It seems a bit far-fetched to me to think that if they had existed all that time, nobody noticed. The fact is that most superstitions that we know about are Victorian inventions.

This thread is about animal divination, not old wives tales but the relation of symbolism evident in nature and how they are presented in life.

maybe it would be best to define what superstition is
from dictionary.com:

1. An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome.
2.
1. A belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance.
2. A fearful or abject state of mind resulting from such ignorance or irrationality.
3. Idolatry.

The difference as far as I can gather and as is stated as in the previous link A lot of superstitions have become part of the language we use – but most are simply that, traditional sayings
Never the less nature does have a voice of its own.

It has very little to do with the idea of balance with nature or accient respect for other animals.

hers an interesting story
Knowledge of Natural World
Saves Primitive Tribes of Andaman and Nicobar Islands From Tsunami
"Officials believe they survived the devastation by using age-old early warning systems.
They might have run to high ground for safety after noticing changes in the behaviour of birds and marine wildlife.
Scientists are examining the possibility to see whether it can be used to predict earth tremors in future."

These people believe the earth is flat and held up by several gods, who battle for control of the land. They believe when there is imbalance on the land through humanities actions they will awaken the angry gods who will rise and shake the earth and then the good gods have to come and restore harmony.
Their knowledge of such gods prepared them for the comming tidal wave.
They knew that when the angry gods tilted the earth and the sea went out that the good Gods would have to come and tilt it back, so they ran for the hills before the sea swallowed the land.

Superstitious bunch of people, but I wouldn't call it non functioing.
I'm not sure I could consider such beliefs illogical or unreasonable either.

Accient ties with nature, such as the Eyptians and Native Americans, might be a topic that is quite interesting, but it doesn't really relate to the OPs original post which is clearly about superstitions, so I would suggest (politely since you are a mod ) it is a topic for another thread.

if you attempt to defer the topic again and I'll ban you.

stevenmu

I hope I'm not encouraging more OT-ness with this (*trembles*), but I find it interesting that such similar links between birds and death seem to have formed independantly in modern superstition and ancient cultures.

solas

heres the thing, I'm not going to humour anyone who comes here gives an opinion and states it as fact, because thats "their belief".
The skeptics wouldn't allow it and I surely won't permit it.
Besides wicknight is a troll and his opinions are baseless.

solas

fkin edit button

Nevyn

If they were mere flights of fancy then such stories of birds as signs of a death
in the family would have died out.

Some may say that is is not connected at all or that it is mere coincidence but
yet it crops up time and time again.

[/ot I swear I didnt see the puns in this until I posted]

Le Rack

Thaedydal wrote:

[/ot I swear I didnt see the puns in this until I posted]

If it's any consolation, I didn't notice until you said it!

I heard another bit today that in families or groups of friends and that, that if two girls die, two chaps will die, and vice versa?

solas

paganism or spirituality?
I think paganism, thead you can move it to where you think suitable.

Nevyn

Spirituality tbh as it is not one does not have to be pagan to believe in such things I know plenty of christians and catholics who do.

Le Rack

Yeah my family is as catholic as they come, but the way everything happened was weird cuz the 2female 2 male thing above happened too, two brothers and two sisters in a very short space of time.

Zombrex

solas wrote:

this is the third time I've stated this, this thread is to remain on topic.

The topic of this thread is the weight we put in superstition, specifically the specific superstition that if a bird enters the house of a person it will result in a death. The OP even stated this, twice. It is kinda hard to talk about a the reasons for superstitions developing in complete isolation.

But if we must... (you are a mod).

The origin of this particular superstition can be traced back quite far.

The Romans believe that a bird, specifically an owl, signified the coming of death. The 4th century Roman writer Obsequens wrote that just before Commodus Antoninus, the Emperor, died a white owl was seen to enter his bed room and pirch on top of his chamber.

Romans also believe that Owls, and other birds, signifed a coming war as well as death. Basically they were messangers for on coming disasters.

Possibilities for the origin of this superstition? In classical times distances were great and news spread slowly. Birds had the ability to fly much faster than man could travel, so it is plausable that Roman and Greek people believe that the birds were messangers sending omens of the future far in advance of any message that could come by horse back.

The idea that birds carried messages of the future is probably as old as man's imagination.

In medieval times in Europe and Britian birds signified re-birth and the coming of spring. Boys in England used to spit on their money for good luck when they heard a cuckoo or swallow.

The Robin, often mentioned specifically in the "bird flying into the house" superstition, was also considered good luck. Robins are often associated with survival and rebirth after winter. They are also associated with beautry. It is considered very bad luck to kill or to capture and keep a Robin.

So how do we get to the Bird in the House superstition? Well it all builds on top of the the others.

Birds are messangers. They signifiy something coming, be it a war, death or springtime and good fortune. Different birds have different associations depending on different events and cultures.

Birds are special and should not be killed or harmed. This of course is only some birds, but hows espeically true for the Robin, the bird often associated with the superstition of a bird entering the house.

So you have two superstitions coming together (probably a lot more), that of a bird fortelling a death, and of a Robin being captured inside a house. It is not hard to see how the superstition that a bird, specifically a Robin, accidently entering a house would grow into the wives tall the OP is talking about.

solas wrote:

as I've already stated provide some links to back up your claims.

Well most of this is not coming from the internet, most of it is from my grandparents who were avid bird watchers. But I will do my best

www.sacredspiral.com/books/knowlson.pdf+Origin+of+superstitions&hl=en
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Obsequens
http://www.corsinet.com/trivia/scary2.html
http://www.shawcreekbirdsupply.com/mythology.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/bb/bb05.htm

stevenmu

Was doing a little googling and thought http://www.fingalarts.ie/culture_and_heritage.asp might be a little relevant.

the real ramon

Slightly off-topic, but still related: You might be interested to know that in ancient Ireland there was a Goddess called Morrigan who was associated with war and would often appear on battlefield as a raven,feeding off the slain. The association of a war Goddess with Ravens is interesting, perhaps indicating how superstitions can find their way into religious traditions.

It seems as if birds are very much connected (albeit superstitiously) with fortune - see the magpies : one for sorrow, two for joy...

Kernel

Superstitious beliefs surely don't belong in Spirituality. Wicknight is right, birds crash into windows at times, some people have connected this with important events and a superstition is born and passed on by the common folk.

Thaed, you said that if there was no truth to a superstition or an omen, then it wouldn't continue? Many ill educated people in Africa remain firmly convinced that having sex with a virgin will cure them of the AIDS virus. Many other people believe eating the heart of your enemy gives you their strength. Luckily, science shines a light on such myths and superstitions, and in the end when a culture becomes more educated and advanced, they become less superstitious.

Zombrex

Kernel wrote:

Superstitious beliefs surely don't belong in Spirituality.

Very true. I still don't get why this was moved.

But I don't want to clutter Spirituality with my complains about the handling of this thread, so I have moved them to Feedback
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054869760

Nevyn

Kernel wrote:

Superstitious beliefs surely don't belong in Spirituality. Wicknight is right, birds crash into windows at times, some people have connected this with important events and a superstition is born and passed on by the common folk.

For some people they are supersitions for others they are not but part of thier beliefs.

Kernel

Thaedydal wrote:

For some people they are supersitions for others they are not but part of thier beliefs.

There's nothing spiritual about the belief that a bird flying into a house signals a death in the family. Please, you're grasping at straws with that leap of logic.

Nevyn

There is a long history of Auguries being used to fortell events and for guidance from the gods both here and in other countires.

http://www.religioromana.net/augury.htm

More specifically, augury concerns signs brought from the gods by birds. Augury is therefore distinct from haruspicy, which looks at the entrails (exta) of sacrificial animals to see if they had been acceptable to the gods (see modern method of haruspicy in Art of Harupsicy page). The Etruscans were credited with bringing haruspicy to Rome. They were also said to have brought to Rome their form of augury. But there is a notable difference between the Etruscan practices and those found at Rome (Cicero: On Divination 1.41, 2.35, 38; On the Nature of the Gods II.4).

The Etruscans employed ostentaria that notes the direction from which certain birds call. The Romans noted the oscines as well, but also watched for the flights of birds. The use of the flight of birds as omens was common in other parts of Italy as well as in Greece and the Near East (Cicero, On Divination 1.92). The earliest mention of augury is found in Homer’s Iliad, dating to around 700 BCE. That is not to say that the Romans adopted their particular form of augury from others, for there are some differences between the Roman practice and elsewhere.

There are many people who bleieve that this is still so and in irish celtic symbolism a bird is the sybmol for a persons soul.
So a bird turning up in a persons home and then leaving is believed to be a soul of a family memeber leaving and the death will soon follow
or a message from the gods that a death will occur.

It is more a leap of faith then a leap of logic.