Birds

Kernel

Oh sorry, I thought this was a 'Spirituality' forum, but I see it's just another Paganism forum. :rolleyes:

Celts or anyone else didn't believe a bird flying into a house was an omen of death. That is a superstition.

stevenmu

Kernel wrote:

There's nothing spiritual about the belief that a bird flying into a house signals a death in the family. Please, you're grasping at straws with that leap of logic.

One definition of spirituality I've come across that I liked is

Spirituality: A way of living that emphasises a constant awareness of the spiritual dimension of nature, without any acknowledgement of a contractual relationship between the material world and the spiritual.

I think the 'spiritual dimension of nature' part is pretty relevant here, if a bird can somehow sense or be affected in some way by an impending death then there's definitly a spiritual aspect to it. Of course they're some pretty big 'if's and given how the thread is presented there's no reason not to try and debunk the superstition/belief/myth.

Unfortunatly the only real way to properly confirm or debunk the idea would be a detailed analytical study comparing the odds of someone in a household dying within a few days of a bird incident with the chances of ... actually the more I think about it, I'm not sure what you'd compare it with ? I don't think you could calculate the odds of someone dying without a bird incident.

Zombrex

Le Rack wrote:

but the way everything happened was weird cuz the 2female 2 male thing above happened too, two brothers and two sisters in a very short space of time.

That superstition is probably related to the Jewish/Christian concept of balance in the natural world.

But since we are only allowed talk about animal superstitions, (because seemingly, you yourself only want to talk about animal superstitions) I cannot comment further without risking a banning.

Wikipedia is probably you best bet.

Nevyn

A lot of my family members believe a bird in the house or a dead bird in the house or in the garden
is a fortelling of a death in the family and they are for the most part christain.
Such an event is taken seriously and prayers will be said for the older members of the family and those who are sick
and news of this happening is told through out the family.



Mod notice
The thread is staying here.
Any further posts about it not being fit for this forum will be considered off topic
and this is a warning to everyone.
Threads about superstion and what makes a superstion can be debated elsewhere.

Zombrex

Thaedydal wrote:

Such an event is taken seriously and prayers will be said for the older members of the family and those who are sick and news of this happening is told through
out the family.

The "superstition" (not saying it is not true), expands a lot further than that.

Simply having wall paper or pictures with birds on it can be considered to be very bad luck for a home which can lead to tragedy and death.

It was common practice for decorators in the 18th and 19th century not to use bird wall paper in bedrooms and family homes.

One of the most famous stories is that of the actress Lucille Ball tearing up all the $90 a roll wall paper (this is back in the 50s so imagine how much that cost) in her Hollywood home because after it was put in she discovered that it contained pictures of small birds.

Her father had died when she was 3 years old and she believed that a bird who had got caught in the family house had signified her fathers death was coming. A picture had also mysteriously fallen off the wall and smashed around the same time.

Ball refused to hang any pictures of birds in her homes, refused the keeping of birds as indoor pets (quite the fashion in the 40s and 50s), and had a fear of birds in general.

http://www.snopes.com/oldwives/bird.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucille_Ball

Nevyn

stevenmu wrote:

Beliefs in this omen/sign/superstition/message (whatever you want to call it) expand across all types of beliefs, or even lack of beliefs, some agnostics or people who would otherwise be athiest would also be 'superstitious'.

could not have said it better myself.

solas

A robin flew into the kitchen the week before my father died. I remember being out shopping with my mother when my sister foned frantically shouting about the robin who practically landed on her head. My father was ill though and had been for some time and we were aware of the situation. My mother concluded that the bird was related to his situation in some way. Note, the bird was very much alive.

In saying that, last year I found a dead bird on the ground outside my daughters bedroom window. My initial reaction was fear, I'm not familiar with having to pickup dead birds (baby sparrow) and I did associate it with my previous experience of relating birds as a portent. But I didn't ponder on it too long, I remember watching a nature program which discussed this common occurance. It was the height of summer and my house is surrounded by a lot of trees, apparantly the birds get confused by the glare of the sun and the reflection of the trees in the window and bam!
There were no deaths in relation to that incident.


I'm not sure what the story is, but I have heard about birds being messengers of some sort, especially when someone is ill or dying, it can signal an imminant passing. But in most cases it seems to be where the family is already aware and are just waiting for the time and should not be a cause for concern in general.

Incidently, I like it when robin visits my garden, come to say hello.

stevenmu

solas wrote:

Note, the bird was very much alive.

Assuming that birds can be a valid portent of death, I don't think there's any reason why the bird itself needs to die. I would imagine that the birds would in some way sense an impending death and be drawn to it, in some cases they may accidentally crash into a window or building and die, in others they may make it inside the building

solas wrote:

In saying that, last year I found a dead bird on the ground outside my daughters bedroom window. My initial reaction was fear, I'm not familiar with having to pickup dead birds (baby sparrow) and I did associate it with my previous experience of relating birds as a portent. But I didn't ponder on it too long, I remember watching a nature program which discussed this common occurance. It was the height of summer and my house is surrounded by a lot of trees, apparantly the birds get confused by the glare of the sun and the reflection of the trees in the window and bam!
There were no deaths in relation to that incident.

Like you mention it's not all that unusual for birds to collide with buildings. Once when I was working as a security guard, I was posted outside a building when I heard something hit the wall a few feet above my head and then something land at my feet. After my heart started beating again (this was the middle of the night, pitch black and totally quiet up to this so it came as a bit of a shock), I saw it was a bird that had hit the building. A few days later someone else mentioned something similar, and it turned out a good few of us had either seen something similar or found dead birds lying around the building. This was just after 9/11 and I was working in the Boston WTC so if I had of thought of the whole portent thing then, I would have been on the first plane back home, but what we reckoned at the time was that for a few days after 9/11, all the lights in the building were turned out at night, and sure enough it seemed to stop after they went back on. (and no one died)

Neesha

One summers day a few years ago a Robin hopped into the kitchen to my grandfather, laughing he said the Robin "was here to take him” he followed him out and fed him. The following day the same thing happened and he said the Robin was definitely here to take him to the other side, we all told him shad up!!:)
But he died that night, now I'm not suggesting the Robin came for him but now every time I see a Robin I feel he is near me and I know the rest of the family feel the same especially my Nan...so I think it’s how you want to interpret it...

Zombrex

stevenmu wrote:

Assuming that birds can be a valid portent of death, I don't think there's any reason why the bird itself needs to die.

Very true.

Generally the bird dying as a result of the encounter is considered much worse luck would follow than if the bird simply enters the house by accident, but that does not mean that bad luck and death cannot follow a bird simply entering a house.

Typically if the bird died it was understood that meant a child is going to die, though not always. It could also mean someone very close to the owner of the house was going to die, such as a wife or mother.

The type of bird is also an important factor. A Robin entering a house, even if it doesnt die, is consider very bad luck, that a death will follow shortly. A Robin entering the house and dying is pretty much the worst luck you could get.

Other birds entering the house could just mean bad luck is on the way, but not necessarily a death. They could signify an illness is on the way (the Swallow is sometimes associated with illness, especially during times of wide spread desease or plauge), or that an accident will happen to someone in the house.

As my Lucille Ball story demonstrated the bird doesn't even have to be real. Any association (such as naming your house after a bird) with birds, or displays of birds can be considered to be tempting faith and a bad omen for a house hold.

joseph dawton

Going back to the original question...

Yes crows are very much associated with death especially in celtic lore. A collection of crows is known as a murder. In the Tain a crow (symbolising the Morigan goddess of war and death) lands on the shoulder of Cuchulain heralding his impending death.

It is also believed that rooks, jackdaws, ravens and magpies can bring bad luck or death. In England there is a legend that if the ravens ever leave the Tower of London then England will be destroyed.

There is some basis the supersticious belief, carrion crows can spread disease and hence it is not wise to come into contact with them. As for auspicious appearances, it's quite possible that someone you know may be about to die or become seriously ill, especially if the crow appears in an unusually place i.e. not in a field or tree where you'd expect to see them anyway.

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