Cable vs DSL Rollout (aka why NTL are brilliant/useless)

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

Forget call bundles from BT or Eircom or anyone else. You don't need to. You use Telestunt. You would need to make a lot of calls with Blueface to save up the €5 initial line cost. It's also likely that you can get bundles from other VoIP providers and use them over the ADSL line, if that's your thing.

The call bundles are unlimited local and national calls at anytime. These aren't avaialble to telestunt. Just becuase you don't use them doesn't mean others don't.

Blaster99 wrote:

I suspect it might get harder for them from now, seeing as they started with the long hanging fruit. But let's see.

Yes, that is probably true, especially in Chorus areas.

Blaster99 wrote:

Hopefully FTV will kick NTL's ass and you will see some significant savings on the cable TV cost in the future.

I agree, I hope it will also have the same effect on Sky's ridiculous prices. In fairness, NTL only make you take the TV package becuase they have no way of stopping you from receiving it. In Chorus areas, where analogue TV is scrambled, you can get BB without TV.

Blaster99 wrote:

But if you need lots of TV's that can watch different channels, then satellite ain't it. I only need two so it's not an issue for me.

Think people sharing in rented accomadation, each wants their own TV. Plus my housemate needs to feed his 6 tuner MythTV PVR monster :eek:

Blaster99

bk wrote:

only now you lose out on the TV, (including C4, E4, Discovery, MTV, Sky One and Paramount which aren't FTA) and DSL isn't as fast or stable as the cable

Really, DSL isn't stable? Where do you get these gems from?

As for channel lineup, you get C4 + C5 + bunch of stations that you don't get with NTL. Swings and roundabouts. It's called FTV by the way, not FTA. Two different things. You can see the free channel lineup here: http://www.freesatfromsky.co.uk. Still think your €30 a month is good value?

As for setting it up, somewhere between €100 to €150 if you know what you're doing. VoIP ain't free either. And if you start from scratch, NTL is €100 to get installed.

paulm17781

bk wrote:

FYI, with a quad LNB, you can do upto four indepenent receivers. It would cost you an extra €40 for the LNB and about €100 for each receiver.

That's quite good! It still isn't an option for me and from previous experience wouldn't drop NTL. None the less I would consider looking at it, depending on lineup etc. I still can't imagine that I could beat NTL & Blueface though (except Blueface & Leased line )

paulm17781

Blaster99 wrote:

Really, DSL isn't stable? Where do you get these gems from?

In my experience it's not. Parents place it dropped about every 15 minutes. My place it was about every hour. Both now have rock solid cable connections.

Blaster99 wrote:

As for channel lineup, you get C4 + C5 + bunch of stations that you don't get with NTL. Swings and roundabouts.

You do get C4 with NTL.

Blaster99 wrote:

And if you start from scratch, NTL is €100 to get installed.

They don't really charge this, they have a different promotion on this every month. It is similar to how Digifone used to have a connection charge of £42.25 that was always "free" with a new phone.

Blaster99

If you make more than 961 minutes (about 16 hours) worth of local, national, or international landline calls in a month, NTL + Blueface is cheaper than BT + Telestunt + FTV. Otherwise, not.

Blaster99

Actually, that's incorrect. You need to make at least 961 minutes worth of calls to break even with the €10pm Blueface package, less and you lose. With the more expensive call bundles you will save money if you make an enourmous amount of calls, and will lose in all other cases. Particularly during months when you don't make lots of calls. Call bundles are generally to be avoided in my experience.

Blaster99

paulm17781 wrote:

You do get C4 with NTL.

Sorry, I was a bit unclear. I was specifically pointing out that C4 (and 5) is available for free on sat, as many people in NTL land don't seem to think that's the case.

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

Really, DSL isn't stable? Where do you get these gems from?

Yes, I had DSL for about 2 years, 512k, then 2m, I had the 2m for about 2 months while I had NTL and I did detailed testing of both.

- NTL has lower latency.
- With NTL you get about 96% of the advertised upload and download speed, with DSL you only got about 75 - 80%
- I've had only about 1 hour downtime in 12 months with NTL, DSL was muc less stable, with far more downtime, not as bad as paulm, but not great when trying to work from hoem and using VNC, VPN, etc.

Blaster99 wrote:

As for channel lineup, you get C4 + C5 + bunch of stations that you don't get with NTL. Swings and roundabouts. It's called FTV by the way, not FTA. Two different things. You can see the free channel lineup here: http://www.freesatfromsky.co.uk. Still think your €30 a month is good value?

Thanks, I'm well aware of the difference, in order to get FTV you need to:

A) You have to have a Sky subscription for 12 months before you can get a FTV card (costs about €300).
You need to have a family or friend with an address in the UK (or buy one of ebay for about €150)
C) most people don't even know it exists or how to get it.

FTA is much more interesting then FTV, FTV won't have any effect on NTL or Sky, however FTA, specially with BBC and ITV now buidling a platform around it (interactive, PVR, EPG, etc.) it is a much more exciting idea (specially if C4 goes FTA in 2008 as many expect).

Blaster99 wrote:

As for setting it up, somewhere between €100 to €150 if you know what you're doing. VoIP ain't free either. And if you start from scratch, NTL is €100 to get installed.

No one ever pays NTL €100, they always give it free. Blueface have a deal where you get the terminal adaptor for just €10, so the setup cost of VoIP isn't signigicant. I wouldn't advise spening less then €200 on a FTA setup, the dishes would be too small for Ireland in bad weather. Plus add an extra €100 for an installer as most people couldn't do it for themselves. And you won't be able to use your FTV card with it. Minimum cost for sky install and 12 month subscription is €280 (probably the best way to get FTA).

bk

But don't you see Blaster99, all the stuff you are talking about is DIY and cutting corners and is well beyond the capabilites of the vast majority of people.

1) Telestunt - many people don't know about it or how to use it (yes it is easy, but it is trciky to use with all the different numbers, most people find it to be too much trouble for anything but international calls).

2) FTA/FTV sat requires you to know a lot about sats and how to install.

3) FTV - most people don't know it exists and it is tricky to get.

Don't you see (depending on setup) for less money or about the same money you get the same or better setup for NTL, without any hastle or thought for the person getting it. It all just works and that is why NTL is so attractive to most people.

BTW I easily use my phone for more then 16 hours a month. Once you have unlimited calls, you tend to use it much more. It is a god send if you work from home.

Blaster99

You can get an FTV card on eBay for £15-20 and you certainly don't need a Sky subscription. Card + equipment will cost somewhere between €100-150. If you can install it yourself, then that's it. I have no idea where you've gotten those other "facts" from.

It's unfortunately quite a lot of ignorance out there when it comes to this stuff, so NTL will possibly continue to charge people €30pm for something that's free. I suppose the reality is that the likes of NTL have every reason to dream up reasons why FTV is bad and nobody makes any money on FTV so it's not really pushed very hard. Not really much of an issue for me.

Blaster99

bk wrote:

But don't you see Blaster99, all the stuff you are talking about is DIY and cutting corners and is well beyond the capabilites of the vast majority of people.

1) Telestunt - many people don't know about it or how to use it (yes it is easy, but it is trciky to use with all the different numbers, most people find it to be too much trouble for anything but international calls).

2) FTA/FTV sat requires you to know a lot about sats and how to install.

3) FTV - most people don't know it exists and it is tricky to get.

Don't you see (depending on setup) for less money or about the same money you get the same or better setup for NTL, without any hastle or thought for the person getting it. It all just works and that is why NTL is so attractive to most people.

Now you're seriously clutching at straws. This is getting sadder by the minute. I'm very sorry to hear that you have difficulty mastering difficult things like eBay, aiming a dish in a certain well documented direction, operating a drill, and plugging in cables in sockets. I was perhaps hoping for more, but do please enjoy NTL. I think if you ask nicely, they will even put in the batteries in your NTL Digital remote control and show how to change the stations.

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

You can get an FTV card on eBay for £15-20 and you certainly don't need a Sky subscription. Card + equipment will cost somewhere between €100-150. If you can install it yourself, then that's it. I have no idea where you've gotten those other "facts" from.

A FTV card will not work with a FTA box, you need a Conditional Access Module, it will only work in a Sky box.

Sure you can get a second hand sky box + dish for about €150, but most people wouldn't know how to install it and would probably break their kneck.

I remember seeing FTV cards going for about €150 in the past, might have changed now as less demand due to FTA.

FTV is dying, FTA is the future, when C4 goes FTA in 2008 there won't be any reason for FTV.

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

Now you're seriously clutching at straws. This is getting sadder by the minute. I'm very sorry to hear that you have difficulty mastering difficult things like eBay, aiming a dish in a certain well documented direction, operating a drill, and plugging in cables in sockets. I was perhaps hoping for more, but do please enjoy NTL. I think if you ask nicely, they will even put in the batteries in your NTL Digital remote control and show how to change the stations.

Insulting people is against the rules of boards. Also when you lower yourself to insult, you have already lost the argument.

It should be quiet clear that I have very good knowledge of all the subjects we are talking about and in fact I've setup a couple of FTA sats for family and friends. It is very simple, but the general public aren't techies like us and just don't understand these things.

Plus you have ignored most of the arguments I have made, time and time again I've proved you wrong, yet you continue with this tiresome tirade.

The last word is that NTL might not be the cheapest for all, but it is the cheapest and easiest option for most people.

And we can both agree that the more competition there is the better.

End of story.

paulm17781

Blaster99 wrote:

Now you're seriously clutching at straws. This is getting sadder by the minute. <snip>.

That is what I was saying about being snide and not really making a point.

I didn't know that FTV was available in Ireland. I knew about Freeview on the east coast/boarder. I use VOIP and am more up on this stuff than anyone I know (excluding some of the people on these boards) and I would have no idea where to point a satellite dish for FTV. Yes I could research this and easily do it but can you really imagine the average Joe doing this kind of work???

That was a fine example of clutching at straws.

damien

bk wrote:

As I noted in another thread, Eircoms new DSL specs closely match NTL's products, coincidence? I don't think so.

You mean eircom are offering products like NTL's? Which are just like broadband products that everyone else offers around the world? Well except for that fact that the rest of the world have far superior and cheaper products. You're drinking the Koolaid too much.

I believe that we wouldn't be getting these higher speeds from Eircom if it wasn't for NTL and the FWA companies. They are the ones driving competition in the BB market.

Smart brought about speed increases last time, I doubt NTL factored at all. Digiweb and Magnet brought about speed increases this time, perhaps NTL had influence. Next the cure for malaria will be attributed to NTL. Bless them.

20% quarter on quarter (compared to 16% for DSL) and 233% year on year (compared to 194% for DSL).

Holyfck. We're quoting ComReg backpatting growth figures? These are the same bollox conspiratorial figures that eircom and ComReg both use to point out how we have high growth rates.

The growth rate compared to DSL is actually quite poor. They are nearly the same, yet if they want market share they'd want to be growing a hell of a lot faster than that or they'll not be gaining nowhere near as many customers year on year as eircom. 233% of a low figure is nowhere near as good as 194% of a figure 3-4 times larger.

What are the rates for canceling of dsl and moving to NTL? They're the only figures I'd trust. Who takes ComReg growth figures seriously in fairness?

Damien, I realise down in Cork with Crappy Chorus, all this talk of how cool NTL BB is seems to be a million miles away, but here in Dublin there is a real buzz about NTL as more and more people sign up and find how much better it is then DSL.

There's no real buzz except in some fanboy's heads. To quote from the ComReg figures you yourself quoted:

DSL remains the largest platform for broadband access, representing around 78% of subscriptions .. Cable broadband ... now represent nearly 9% of total broadband subscriptions.

Why if NTL is so mighty is their growth rate not 1000%? Why have they not taken a lot of the market from eircom? 78% of people with DSL. If they have "the majority" of Dublin and "all" of Waterford and Galway covered and they have such an amazing cheap product, then why are 78% of all connections still over a phoneline and why are eircom still ploughing ahead with broadband sign-ups. If NTL seems to have half the population covered then surely they should have more than 9% of the market?

Don't underestimate it.

No, I don't. I grasp reality when having to try and help people get broadband. NTL are not the new messiah. Their bull for the past few years is just like eircom's but because they are not eircom everyone seems to believe them. They, like eircom, are a business who make out they are all over Dublin and have great plans and are all over Galway and Waterford.

When I stop getting the usual daily emails from people wanting broadband and can recommend NTL if the person is in Dublin, Galway or Waterford then I might believe people. Right now I see them the way I see Magnet and Smart. Great product, little coverage and like eircom when it comes to manipulating availability figures.

cgarvey

Blaster99 wrote:

I'm very sorry to hear that you have difficulty mastering difficult things like eBay...

Another gem like this, Blaster99, will get you banned. bk/paulm17781 there are enough police around here, thank you, so in future just use the "report this post" function, rather than using it to try and build on your argument.

While we're wearing the cap. Freesat, to the best of my limited knowledge is not legally available in the Republic of Ireland, so it's pointless (and against the charter) to discuss it here.

Taking off the cap...

FTV lacks a lot of the channel line up pay-tv (be it Sky or NTL, who are very close), so that needs to be factored in as well, along with the varing call usage patterns that everyone is harping on about.

Also, while on the subject of underestimating: the value of brand recognition has to be recognised in these arguments. eircom are easily the worst value for many baskets (of calls, dialup net, bb net, etc.), yet they are miles ahead of all the competitors combined. It's "easier" to be with them. Even with my hatred of their tactics, I'm with them (yes me, of all people), because it's easier. I can't afford the downtime everyone expects me to suffer for a port transfer, or get wireless. Same applies to NTL. I know a lot of people who go with NTL over Sky, because they already had it.

NTL aren't all that in my book, simply because they've been promising me BB in different areas (i've been in many houses/apartments since, but all still can't get BB) for the last 5-6 years. eircom, or any other ISP for that matter, haven't. So, in my book, NTL are as bad as, if not worse than, eircom in terms of stalling rollout, until they absolutely had to.

Blaster99

cgarvey wrote:

Another gem like this, Blaster99, will get you banned.

It was good though, wasn't it? Seriously he walked into that one. Ban away by the way, couldn't care less. If you guys can't handle a bit of banter, I think you might need to lighten up a bit.

FTV is not illegal in Ireland. It's not sold in Ireland, but that doesn't make it illegal. There are lots of products that are not sold in Ireland. Importing them is not illegal.

I would have some pretty serious issues with the argument that because people don't know about a product or lack initial knowledge about it makes it an unviable alternative. I have already put some choice words to describe the quality of that argument. How many people can setup a VoIP router correctly, chosing the right dial plan, the right codec, etc? Just because it's reasonably difficult doesn't mean that's it not a viable alternative. And besides, I'm not Eddie Hobbs. I assume the reader has the ability to figure out some stuff, and if not, there's a satellite forum that can answer all the questions a lot better than I can. Indeed, this is not for your granny but perhaps she's not using Boards either? I haven't read the ever so important T&C's of this forum, but if it assumes a below average understanding of technical things I beg your pardon for trying highlight cheaper alternatives that might affect NTL's ability to continue to charge for free stuff. No what am I saying, I'm not sorry at all.

My point is simply, with a bit of cop on you can save yourself a lot of money by not using NTL. NTL tends to be presented as the golden choice when it comes to broadband and telephony. It is not if you know what you're doing.

bk, you have not proved me wrong on pricing. You've come up with a lot of fictional numbers on how much satellite stuff costs, but other than that not a lot. FTV may well be on the way out, but by 2008 you will have paid 24 * €30 and I will have paid €30.

Blaster99

damien.m wrote:

You're drinking the Koolaid too much.

Implying drinking problems is surely against the charter? And is Koolaid actually legally available in Ireland?

bk

damien.m wrote:

You mean eircom are offering products like NTL's? Which are just like broadband products that everyone else offers around the world? Well except for that fact that the rest of the world have far superior and cheaper products. You're drinking the Koolaid too much.

Interestingly we aren't really that far behind the rest of the world anymore, with Eircom upping to 3m it will actually be faster then BT in the UK at 2m, which is what most people in the UK have.

With the new Eircom prices and specs we really are about average with the rest of the world now. Sure there are some outstanding examples like Japan, but most countries don't have those speeds and they aren't really important for driving takeup, a low entry price point is.

I think what we need to focus on is, trying to improve competition in Ireland through improving the LLU process and ensuring that everyone in the country has access to at least one form of BB.

damien.m wrote:

Smart brought about speed increases last time, I doubt NTL factored at all. Digiweb and Magnet brought about speed increases this time, perhaps NTL had influence. Next the cure for malaria will be attributed to NTL. Bless them.

Last upgrades I agree, this time I do believe NTL had a big influnece, along with Digiweb and Magnet. The reality is NTL has more subscribers then Digiweb and Magnet put together and is also a greater risk to Eircom.

The reality is non of us know unless you work in Eircom upper management, but logically NTL is a much greater threat to Eircom.

damien.m wrote:

Holyfck. We're quoting ComReg backpatting growth figures? These are the same bollox conspiratorial figures that eircom and ComReg both use to point out how we have high growth rates.

While these figures were put together to make Comreg look good and they are PR BS. I assume that they are actually correct and are a valid way of comparing the relative uptake of DSL versus cable.

damien.m wrote:

The growth rate compared to DSL is actually quite poor. They are nearly the same, yet if they want market share they'd want to be growing a hell of a lot faster than that or they'll not be gaining nowhere near as many customers year on year as eircom. 233% of a low figure is nowhere near as good as 194% of a figure 3-4 times larger.

I agree, 2006 will be the make or break year for them, if they don't do it this year then they won't be a major threat.

Realistically if they play their cards right they can gain at least 25% of the total BB market. They will never beat DSL, due to wider avialability, but they can certainly be a major thorn in Eircoms side and that is good for all of us.

In order to grow take up rates they need to:
1) Complete the dublin rollout fast
2) Rollout the voice services.
3) Advertise nationally on TV, etc.

damien.m wrote:

What are the rates for canceling of dsl and moving to NTL? They're the only figures I'd trust. Who takes ComReg growth figures seriously in fairness?

No idea, almost impossible to tell, however lots of people here on boards have jumped from DSL to NTL (me included) but I have never heard of anyone going the other way (well maybe in D15). So that should at least tell you something about the quality of the service.

Actually people moving isn't so important at this stage in the market, the BB market is still imature in Ireland and still hasn't reached the mass market phase, it looks like 2006 will be the year for this. At this stage the most important action is to grab as large a chunk of the market as possible as it is much harder to steal customers then gain new customers.

damien.m wrote:

There's no real buzz except in some fanboy's heads. To quote from the ComReg figures you yourself quoted:

Ah come on now Damien, no need for that, we are only having a converstation.

BTW 9% isn't too bad for what is basically only one years work. But I agree they badly need to make use of it now and gain about 20 - 25% over the next 12 months.

damien.m wrote:

Why if NTL is so mighty is their growth rate not 1000%? Why have they not taken a lot of the market from eircom? 78% of people with DSL. If they have "the majority" of Dublin and "all" of Waterford and Galway covered and they have such an amazing cheap product, then why are 78% of all connections still over a phoneline and why are eircom still ploughing ahead with broadband sign-ups. If NTL seems to have half the population covered then surely they should have more than 9% of the market?

You are putting words in my mouth, I never said "half of the population" nor the "majority of Dublin", what I have said is exactly 155,300 homes as of November (probably closer to 200,000 by now) which is about 10 - 12% of the homes in Ireland or about 45% of NTL's total cable customers. So that puts them at about 1/10 of Eircoms DSL enabled lines, which would make 9% about right, if they enable the rest of their lines then they should be able to gain at least 20% without a major advertising campaign, etc. (but more if they do).

damien.m wrote:

No, I don't. I grasp reality when having to try and help people get broadband. NTL are not the new messiah. Their bull for the past few years is just like eircom's but because they are not eircom everyone seems to believe them. They, like eircom, are a business who make out they are all over Dublin and have great plans and are all over Galway and Waterford.

When I stop getting the usual daily emails from people wanting broadband and can recommend NTL if the person is in Dublin, Galway or Waterford then I might believe people. Right now I see them the way I see Magnet and Smart. Great product, little coverage and like eircom when it comes to manipulating availability figures.

I also often give people advise on who to sign up for, if they are in Dubln, Galway or Waterford, I usually say check with NTL first, if they aren't avialable try BT and then try Digiweb Metro. Many (but not all) have come back and said they got NTL and are now very happy.

You are of course right, they are a company out to make money and are no different then Eircom, Digiweb and all the others. However in my experience their products are of a better quality, at a price lower then Eircom and with a good customer service. So those of us who can avail of them are very happy and we cheer them on.

In the end competition is good. If NTL aren't successful then it will be bad for us all. If they are a success, then we all benefit from greater choice and competition.

Wouldn't it be great if we had a situation where cable had 25% of BB, LLU and FWA had another 25% and the bitstream companies another slice? That would really cut down on Eircoms monopoly and create a really competitive market here in Ireland.

cgarvey

Blaster99 wrote:

FTV is not illegal in Ireland. It's not sold in Ireland, but that doesn't make it illegal.

I know FTV is not illegal in Ireland. However I didn't say it was. I was talking about Freesat (which is very different to FTV). To obtain freesat in Rep of Ireland, you'll either have to impersonate an English entity (which I'm happy to consider as being illegal), or you'll have to cirumvent procedures in place to prevent the viewing of copyrighted material, in licensed areas. It was that bit I was unsure of, but I would have thought that, too, was illegal?

Blaster99 wrote:

I would have some pretty serious issues with the argument that because people don't know about a product or lack initial knowledge about it makes it an unviable alternative.

OK, so you're saying that the arguments on this thread are for the more technical competent Boards.ie posters only? Fair enough, I had taken them in the context of the general IoffL community, many of which wouldn't be, I'm sure you'll agree.

Blaster99 wrote:

I haven't read the ever so important T&C's of this forum... No what am I saying, I'm not sorry at all.

Fine don't bother doing as the moderators request and read the forum charter. Don't, however, think that because you're on the IoffL committee you'll be treated any differently. If anything you should be showing more respect than the average poster here, not violating the charter you couldn't be bothered reading.

Blaster99 wrote:

My point is simply...

And a good point you've made, and you've made well until you start insulting people.

bk

cgarvey wrote:

Another gem like this, Blaster99, will get you banned. bk/paulm17781 there are enough police around here, thank you, so in future just use the "report this post" function, rather than using it to try and build on your argument.

Sorry about that, I don't like being insulted, but I don't like getting people banned either.

cgarvey wrote:

Also, while on the subject of underestimating: the value of brand recognition has to be recognised in these arguments. eircom are easily the worst value for many baskets (of calls, dialup net, bb net, etc.), yet they are miles ahead of all the competitors combined. It's "easier" to be with them. Even with my hatred of their tactics, I'm with them (yes me, of all people), because it's easier. I can't afford the downtime everyone expects me to suffer for a port transfer, or get wireless. Same applies to NTL. I know a lot of people who go with NTL over Sky, because they already had it.

That has to be the most insightful thing written in this whole thread. It is frigthening the grip that the Eircom brand and "ease" has over people. I've had incredible problems trying to convince people to move to UTV talk, despite the fact that it'll save them about €50 a month and doesn't involve much work.

I also have trouble with recommending BT to people, Eircom is just so trouble free in comparison, it is just embarrasing when I recommend people to BT and they end up having major problems with BT's billling department. If they could only sort that out, I'd have no problem recommending them.

The problems with port transfers and the LLU process is also a major concern for me. I can completely understand your hesitation in moving, I work from home myself, so I can't have any downtime either. That was why, when I went to NTL, I had DSL for a two month overlap, to ensure the transfer went smoothly (fortunately you get 3 months free from NTL which helped). These problems are a major impedement to competition and need to be removed in order to improve competition.

bk

cgarvey wrote:

I know FTV is not illegal in Ireland. However I didn't say it was. I was talking about Freesat (which is very different to FTV). To obtain freesat in Rep of Ireland, you'll either have to impersonate an English entity (which I'm happy to consider as being illegal), or you'll have to cirumvent procedures in place to prevent the viewing of copyrighted material, in licensed areas. It was that bit I was unsure of, but I would have thought that, too, was illegal?

Hi, just to clarify, FTV is the one where C4, C5, etc. are encrypted and only people in the UK are allowed to watch and is a grey area, legally.

FTA is Free To Air and is transmitted on satellite unencrypted and is perfectly legal to receive. The BBC and ITV channels are transmitted in this way.

Yes, I know it can be pretty confusing.

rogue-entity

Where do people get off thinking that NTL is a good? My dad has NTL in the house, we pay ~20.18 for the basic TV service, not 19. On top of this we pay an extra 20 for 4 TV points, one of which they dont have the right to charge us for. Then we pay ~65.90 for the Digital TV package with the sports and movies in just one room. So that comes down to ~110/month for NTLs crap service.

Now I would not hesitate to sign up to the NTL 2Meg service just on the cheaper price alone for what would be the same speed of what I will get on BT by the time my BT contract expires next October. There are just a few barriers to NTL for me first, NTL is not available in my area yet, in fact NTL have not upgraded anywhere on the Dunmore road as of yet, so no one can say that NTL have done the whole of waterford and just to put things into perspective most people in waterford live along the dunmore road's 8+ housing estates. Second, NTL in waterford is just crap and any broadband service that I would get is likly to be highly intermittent and unreliable. Third, It is unlikly that the service would be sustainable at the rate that NTL gives me because of the larger porportion of people in the housing estates that would share the same connection that I would have to the net, as all of us online downloading at the same time the capacity would drop, basicly I would have a contention ratio well worse then 48:1 as I highly doubt NTLs infrastructure could be improved to service the large volume of customers on that part of there network. If they cannot provide a reliable digital TV service, how the hell can they do it with broadband?

Blaster99

If you ban me, won't we just be left with NTL brochure speak and people wondering when BT are going to increase their speeds? If you don't have a bit of disagreement every so often, nobody is gonna learn anything.

I have no idea about the legalities of FTV or Freesat to be honest. Ultimately Sky or whoever gets paid. The satellite forum is full of people discussing this stuff so I would hazard a guess that's ok by the general standards of Boards. I'm not exactly the first person to have figured out how to get this stuff for free. The difference between FTA and FTV is only a couple of channels in any event, nearly everything is free free.

Now if we could only spend 5% of this energy on the OECD price comparison all would be well...

damien

Blaster99 wrote:

Now if we could only spend 5% of this energy on the OECD price comparison all would be well...

How is that poisoned chalice going? bk can help!

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

My point is simply, with a bit of cop on you can save yourself a lot of money by not using NTL. NTL tends to be presented as the golden choice when it comes to broadband and telephony. It is not if you know what you're doing.

bk, you have not proved me wrong on pricing. You've come up with a lot of fictional numbers on how much satellite stuff costs, but other than that not a lot.

And simply put, my point is that for many people, NTL is the cheapest option, the best option or even the only option (can't put up a satellite).

I do also recognise that for some people DSL + whatever might be a cheaper option.

It completely depends on the persons needs, requirements and priorities. Each individual needs to make the decision for themself.

bk

rogue-entity wrote:

Where do people get off thinking that NTL is a good? My dad has NTL in the house, we pay ~20.18 for the basic TV service, not 19. On top of this we pay an extra 20 for 4 TV points, one of which they dont have the right to charge us for. Then we pay ~65.90 for the Digital TV package with the sports and movies in just one room. So that comes down to ~110/month for NTLs crap service.

You don't have to pay all that. Unless you are in a MMDS area, which might be differnt.

You should be paying:
NTL Analogue TV: €19.50
NTL Digital Go Max: €10
NTL Digital Extra Box x 3: €15
Sports and Movies: €33.50
Total: €78

And the sports and movies will be replicated on each of the digital boxes for free.

Anything else is completely wrong and you should get onto them immediately to sort it out.

All the pricing is here: http://www.ntl.ie/athome/index_dtv2.html

Blaster99

damien.m wrote:

How is that poisoned chalice going? bk can help!

Yeah he PM'ed me and begged forgiveness. I suggested a penance consisting of four countries in obscure eastern European languages.

Seriously though, WE NEED HELP. I'm hassling a few people with local knowledge in a few countries. It's very difficult to do without knowing the local scene. I'm gonna attempt a few myself to keep the ball rolling.

paulm17781

I had a look at the freesatfromsky page. I honestly don't think it looks as good as NTL Digital although the price is better.

It isn't an option anyway as I can't get a dish. For people in aparments I can not imagine there is better value NTL & VOIP. Perhaps Magnet but the only review I have read isn't great.

If I am not mistaken here, cable went from 2% of all BB connections last year to 9% this year. I would be amazed if half of that isn't customers lost from eircom.

paulm17781

cgarvey wrote:

bk/paulm17781 there are enough police around here, thank you, so in future just use the "report this post" function, rather than using it to try and build on your argument.

Apologies for this. However I did not use it to build on my argument as it has nothing to do with my argument. I get very annoyed when someone has to resort to insults, thinking it makes them sound clever, in what is meant to be a civilised conversation.