Evidence that Wicknight can be a tit. Yes I know, its hard to believe

Zombrex

Hi everybody.

I am not one to complain about the running of Boards.ie or the mods in general. I think they all do a bang up job.

But I must take exception to the handling of a thread in Paranormal that was moved to Spirituality.

The thread was this one concerning the supersition around the significance of a bird flying into a persons house.

I still don't really follow why this was moved out of Paranormal, or why I was threaten with a banning for discussing other superstitions and the reason they arise in culture.

Solas wrote:

if you attempt to defer the topic again and I'll ban you.

Superstitions like these are not a religious belief system, or anything close to a spiritual belief system.

Solas, the mod of Paranormal (who really doesn't seem to like me very much) seemed to believe that this was all releated to animal divination, which is seemingly why this was moved.

With the risk of being threatened with another banning, it isn't anything to do with animal divination, despite how much he seems to want to guide the topic in that directions.

I find it rather ironic that he threated me with banning for discussion other superstitions (such as walking under ladders), which were seemingly "off topic", but then he fixated on the off topic of animal divination and even moved the thread out of Paranormal. How much more off topic can you go.

It doesn't even have much in divination or even common fortune telling. It is not a skill, system or practice.

For those not up on the terms -

Divination is for-telling of future events with in a structured belief system like a religion. Examples would be the Roman preists and oracles who would for tell the future out comes of battles and the lives of important people by studying everything from the stars to the entrails of animals.

Fortune telling is for telling outside of a structured belief system or religion. This would include palm readers, psychics, people who read tea leafs etc.

This topic of the thread concerns neither of these aspects. There is no person with a skill or power interpreting the messages from animals or nature.

This is about superstitions and the ideas of luck and bad luck, pure and simple, the common cultural beliefs that put significance into seemingly random events.

The OP even goes on to talk about other superstitions, such as 2 sisters die at the same time it means 2 brothers will die next. When I discussed other superstitions I was threaten with a banning because seeming that wasn't the topic being discussed (despite the OP himself discussing it).

I don't mind mods keep personal insults down, or stopping people going on wild off topic rants. But I take exception to a mod restricting the discussion to something off topic that he himself seems interested in and then threatening me with a banning for discussing other (very on topic) aspects.

*EDIT*
To add I don't apprecate a mod calling me a troll and saying my claims are baseless after I have made one post on the topic. I hardly see what warrented being called a troll by a Boards.ie moderator about my post. I would like to know what part of my original post Solas believes was trolling (or even baseless for that matter).

I am used to being picked on by other Boards.ie members, but it is a bit much to expect it from a moderator when I haven't even been around long enough in Paranormal to have offended anyone.

Solas wrote:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50628707&postcount=17
Besides wicknight is a troll and his opinions are baseless.

kaimera

a please in the title wouldn't go astray.

even a question mark would make it less of a demand.

I'd not move it on the basis of how you asked here tbh.

Zombrex

kaimera wrote:

a please in the title wouldn't go astray.

even a question mark would make it less of a demand.

I'd not move it on the basis of how you asked here tbh.

Appologies, I didn't mean to sound rude, I wrote the thread title in a hurry.

[strike]Is it possible to edit the Thread Title once the thread has been started?[/strike]

Found it

Zombrex

Ok someone is messing with my privilages. I was barred from Spirtuality for a few minutes back there, then I could access it fine.

I wrote a not to happy post as well, which in a cooler mind I have decided to delete. Apologies if anyone read it before I could delete it.

But I might ask what is going on?

GuanYin

I think you may have missed post number 11

solas wrote:

I wanted to be sure that the topic remain connected to animal divination and not get swayed into the area of walking under ladders. In my opinion there is a vast difference. The latter being something of an urban legend rather than anything based in cultural traditions.

Mods prerogative in this case and any action you took after that to the contrary is basically your own fault.

That said, I don't see why its spiritual rather than paranormal.

Zombrex

psi wrote:

I think you may have missed post number 11

Mods prerogative in this case and any action you took after that to the contrary is basically your own fault.

That said, I don't see why its spiritual rather than paranormal.

No I saw it, I just think Solas is completely wrong in what he (she?) believes the topic of the thread is. It is very clear from the original post, and from later posts by the OP that this is not about animal diviation, it is about superstition.

I don't think a mod should be able to hi-jack a thread and direct it to an off topic they are interested in, any more than a normal Boards.ie member should.

stevenmu

Wicknight wrote:

Ok someone is messing with my privilages. I was barred from Spirtuality for a few minutes back there, then I could access it fine.

Did you get a VBulletin message saying you didn't have permission or could you just not view the page ? I checked the access list and there's no mention of you, if you'd been banned and unbanned again then there'd be an entry on the list showing you had been granted access. Probably just a coincidentally timed glitch.

I wasn't involved in the thread being moved so I won't comment on that (yet). In general I think threads more or less belong to the OP, if she's happy to leave it there, then I am too, if she wants it moved the I'd be more likely to do it.

That said I don't really see what difference moving it back would make, posters on the spirituality board don't nessecarily have to take a spiritual point of view with anything, the main difference would be posters can't criticise other posters points of view or demand proof for them.

Zombrex

stevenmu wrote:

Did you get a VBulletin message saying you didn't have permission or could you just not view the page ? I checked the access list and there's no mention of you, if you'd been banned and unbanned again then there'd be an entry on the list showing you had been granted access. Probably just a coincidentally timed glitch.

I went to view the forum and it is said I could not because of .. and then listed a number of possible reasons. I have never been banned so i don't know if that is what being banned is like. But if I am not on the list it was possibly just a glitch.

stevenmu wrote:

That said I don't really see what difference moving it back would make, posters on the spirituality board don't nessecarily have to take a spiritual point of view with anything, the main difference would be posters can't criticise other posters points of view or demand proof for them.

My main objection was that the topic was hi-jacked by the mod who refused to allow discussion in areas he (she?) was not interested in and then threatened a banning to myself for seemingly going "off topic".

I am also not very happy about being called a troll or Solas stating my opinions are baseless. He (she?) seems to have a real problem with me, I am not quite sure why.

I know people complain about mods abusing their position all the time, but really I think the behaviour of Solas in this instance was unacceptable for a moderator.

Shabadu

I know this thread will probably disentegrate into the usual flaming "OMG look u r fieghting de powah!" snowball we all know and love, but i'm with Wicknight on this one. I read paranormal quite a bit (for the lulz) and I have to say, Solas can be a bit, er, quick to judge people. He tends to view sceptics as thread spoilers. O_o

GuanYin

Wicknight wrote:

No I saw it, I just think Solas is completely wrong in what he (she?) believes the topic of the thread is. It is very clear from the original post, and from later posts by the OP that this is not about animal diviation, it is about superstition.

I don't think a mod should be able to hi-jack a thread and direct it to an off topic they are interested in, any more than a normal Boards.ie member should.

The thread wasn't about superstition, it was about Birds (hence the title).

The mod directs the thread on/off topic as much as the mod sees fit. That is why she is the mod.

You're around long enough now to (A) know this and (B) realise that whinging isn't going to get you anywhere.

Basically, you wanted to talk about something off topic, the mod had already said this was a no-no, you felt you should be able to anyway, the mod slapped you, the thread got moved and you complained.

Is that a fair summation?

jonski

Never , ever , ever , include in a "I was banned" thread , " the mod doesn't like me " and "I am used to being picked on by other Boards.ie members" , as it turns people off straight away .

Having said that , and reading through the original post I , and this is of no help to your plight , would side with you on this one . Maybe it should be renamed the Pro Paranormal board .

jonski

psi wrote:

Is that a fair summation?

No

GuanYin

jonski wrote:

. Maybe it should be renamed the Pro Paranormal board .

I take it you haven't read the charter so?

jonski

psi wrote:

I take it you haven't read the charter so?

And you would be wrong

Zombrex

psi wrote:

The thread wasn't about superstition, it was about Birds (hence the title).

That is like saying a question about the superstition "walking under ladders is bad luck" is about ladders and should be moved to the carpentry forum.

The thread was not about "birds", it wasn't even about worshipping birds, or even representations of birds in religion. It was about superstition, specifically the superstition of a bird entering the house signifies a death is coming.

The OP even mentions the word "superstition" a number of times and mentions other superstitions in later posts.

Yet according to Solas this thread has nothing to do with superstitions and was only about animal diviation, despite that fact that it clearly isn't.

psi wrote:

The mod directs the thread on/off topic as much as the mod sees fit. That is why she is the mod.

The mods role is to moderate the discussion of others, not hi-jack the discussion and direct it any way they want to.

psi wrote:

You're around long enough now to (A) know this and (B) realise that whinging isn't going to get you anywhere.

Which is why I didn't whing about it in Spirituaity or Paranormal, I moved it to feedback for discussion. I also seem to be getting a bit of support. Seemingly I am not the only one who feels like this.

psi wrote:

Basically, you wanted to talk about something off topic, the mod had already said this was a no-no, you felt you should be able to anyway, the mod slapped you, the thread got moved and you complained.

Is that a fair summation?

Basically I posted something about the topic the OP original brought up, the mod took acception to this and threatened to ban me for going off topic. I pointed out it wasn't off topic at all. Then I was called a troll by the mod who said my claims (what ever my "claims" were) were baseless.

As Shabadu pointed out Solas seems to believe that anyone who doesn't tow the line in Paranormal is thread spoiling.

Zombrex

jonski wrote:

Never , ever , ever , include in a "I was banned" thread , " the mod doesn't like me " and "I am used to being picked on by other Boards.ie members" , as it turns people off straight away .

Point taken

I was trying to get across that I don't normally complain about the running of Boards.ie, but then again I guess anyone who complains eventually thinks they don't complain a lot, or that their particular complaint is justified where others were not.

So maybe I am being totally unreasonable. Psi seems to think so, and I know he is one of the more level headed variety of Boards posters.

But I have had a number of people say they think it was unreasonable how the thread was handled, especially the threat of banning and being called a troll, so I am hoping it isn't all in my head

GuanYin

jonski wrote:

And you would be wrong

Excellent, then you will know that the Paranormal board is a board to discuss paranormal beliefs, it sthere for people who believe in portents, of death, ufos, ghosts, vampires, werewolves, mothmen, superstition and underpants gnomes.

What it is NOT there for, is people to take threads and enter into long discussions on why people shouldn't believe in these things, or why they think people believe in these things.

Thats what the skeptics board is there for.

Now, the charter does state that questioning and reasonable debate is allowed, (solas, I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but I did write the charter after all), but this merely relates to suggesting that the hissing ghost that haunts the heating switch, may actually be a leak in a pipe or the banshee that wails down the chimney may be a birds nest. Ona broader scale it allows discussion of the preternatural, such as ESP - things we don't understand now, but feel science may explain in the future.

Its not for debunking peoples beliefs and its not for telling someone who wants to talk about the occurance of portents of death in their family that its all just an old superstition from years ago.

Now, the mod said what the mod wanted to do, and that really all there is to it. Skeptics is a fine forum for people who want to talk about things in the manner you guys do, paranormal isn't.

Finally, for what its worth, I don't see why the thread was moved and I don't believe it should have been. Nor do I think wicknight is a troll. I think those two points were off the mark.

Otherwise, live with it.

stevenmu

Wicknight wrote:

My main objection was that the topic was hi-jacked by the mod who refused to allow discussion in areas he (she?) was not interested in and then threatened a banning to myself for seemingly going "off topic".

I think you're making quite a leap to assume that Solas pulled the thread off-topic to suit her own nefarious purposes. Do you not think it's more likely that she innocently misinterpreted the topic of the thread, or even equally likely that you misinterpreted the topic of the thread.

I re-read the thread just now, and it looks to me like Solas' understanding of the topic was the correct one, while it is related to superstition it is about a particular superstition(s) not superstition in general. Solas pointed this out and asked people to remain on topic, before you posted on the thread, and despite this you posted off topic anyway. This is presumably why Solas assumed you were trolling, when you could quite easily have simply started a new thread to discuss superstition in general (or dug up the old one that I think is there somewhere).

Shabadu wrote:

tends to view sceptics as thread spoilers

The sceptics issue is a totally different one, try to stay on topic

GuanYin

Wicknight wrote:

As Shabadu pointed out Solas seems to believe that anyone who doesn't tow the line in Paranormal is thread spoiling.

Damn right.

Paranormal is for discussing belief in the paranormal. Not scientific discussion on why the beliefs are in place.

It was difficult enough to get a forum where people felt free and open to talk about such things without being ridiculed and, to be honest, I was far more ban happy there than solas ever was.

Like I said, if you want to set up a discussion along the lines of your post (because I probably wouldn't have allowed it either) then ISS is the place for you.

solas

I'll come back and respond to this thread in detail later.
The paranormal charter is currently up for evaluation. There is a thread in the forum where you can go and make your own suggestions but at this moment in time and based on some previous suggestions, anything which falls into the category of "beliefs" (as Zillah stated) should go somewhere more apt.
The thread started out as a simple question relating to someones experience with birds and as is the natural rhythm in paranormal ended up as an argument about superstitions.

When the original poster confirmed such was the case I moved it.

what PSI just said echoes my own concern with the paranormal

psi wrote:

Paranormal is for discussing belief in the paranormal. Not scientific discussion on why the beliefs are in place.

seemingly the forum users want to expand on this.

GuanYin

RopeDrink wrote:

I disagree with that, to be perfectly honest. A moderator really should only guide the topic of discussion when it either goes off topic, breaks the charter, is not suited to the particular forum, or decends into muppetry / flaming / trolling / spamming (If such action isn't accepted within the forum in question)...

Otherwise, I would primarily regard the thread as belonging to the original poster... In most cases, anyway.

And in a forum where most people want to naturall debunk the beliefs or opinon of the original poster because they don't quite fit in with what everyone else would view as "common sense" that may be a bit of a problem.

jonski

psi wrote:

Excellent, then you will know that the Paranormal board is a board to discuss paranormal beliefs, it sthere for people who believe in portents, of death, ufos, ghosts, vampires, werewolves, mothmen, superstition and underpants gnomes.

What it is NOT there for, is people to take threads and enter into long discussions on why people shouldn't believe in these things, or why they think people believe in these things.

Thats what the skeptics board is there for.

Point taken . I should have said Pro Solas .

GuanYin

solas wrote:

what PSI just said echoes my own concern with the paranormal

seemingly the forum users want to expand on this.

Send em to skeptics and if they argue ban them.

The forum charter should be plain to everyone, but if it has to read like a set of totalitarian rules then so be it.

Whats the point in having two boards performing the same function?

solas

thats my point exactly.
It just seems to me that the sceptics would have nothing to discuss if people weren't offering material for them to scrutinise, all of which is availale at the paranormal forum.

debunking belief and voicing opposing opinions is not permitted in either of the belief forums, and so a normal discussion can occur there, wheras in the paranormal everything comes under scrutiny and inevitably always ends up as an "us vs them" issue.

I'm not suggesting there should be no analysis at the forum, but the thread was a simple question relating to experience, in the case "has anyone else experienced this".

jonski

Looking back I seem to have completely mis read ( nothing new I know ) the charter , or more specifically mis read the forum . Not realising that there are both a paranormal and a sceptic's forum . Although this must really stiffle debate I can see why as I am sure that people that believe must be tired of explaining themselves and would like to just get on and discuss it .

Still think Wicknight was hard done by but then maybe Solas is dealing with 10 thread going the very same way on a daily basis .

solas

Still think Wicknight was hard done by

I can't see why he was hard done by, it's not like he was banned. the thread was moved to somewhere else. It didn't prevent him from continuing the discussion he wanted to put forward, he just had to do it elsewhere. if his only interest in the paranormal forum is debunking (which is evident from all his other input) then I suggest he stay he take up residency at skeptics forum.
The paranormal forum is for people to discuss and share experience.

Although this must really stiffle debate

not all forums exist to provide debate, some are just communities.

GuanYin

solas wrote:

thats my point exactly.
It just seems to me that the sceptics would have nothing to discuss if people weren't offering material for them to scrutinise, all of which is availale at the paranormal forum.

debunking belief and voicing opposing opinions is not permitted in either of the belief forums, and so a normal discussion can occur there, wheras in the paranormal everything comes under scrutiny and inevitably always ends up as an "us vs them" issue.

I'm not suggesting there should be no analysis at the forum, but the thread was a simple question relating to experience, in the case "has anyone else experienced this".

Well if you remember before I handed over, I was getting pretty heavy handed on paranormal (I think you even gave me grief over it once or twice ) and scenarios like this were the main reason.

I'm all open to a bit of reasoning about someones point or a mis/pre-conception. Likewise when something like the succubus or alien abduction night terrors have been readily explained, I can see it as reasonable to point this out in a discussion on them.

What I don't think is on, is for discussion to go down a line where people (like wicknight did) try and rationalise them out. The evidence might be good. The evidence might be right, but the evidence isn't conclusive and paranormal isn't a science forum, ergo, the type of discussion has no place there.

Skeptics suffers its own problems when it comes to topics, personally I think the quality of debate there is lacking, but thats down to their mods to sort out. If I were to offer a suggestion to you, its simply to carry on. Paranormal is pretty active, and you have a nice core user group, shuffle on. If you need to take out the ban hammer, a few one-two week bans and people will either (A) not come back or (B) learn to respect the rules.

If it comes down to preserving the forum concept or someones sense of justice, then I'd take the forum concept every time and twice on sundays.

solas

psi wrote:

Well if you remember before I handed over, I was getting pretty heavy handed on paranormal (I think you even gave me grief over it once or twice

I remember and I agree with yor reasoning.

I think things were ok up until a few weeks ago where it became evident that the skeptics had the run of the forum and there was a complete imbalance.
They tore shreds into mysteria, which I found personally repulsive and have become heavy handed myself since.
It is a difficult one to mod because there is such a fine line.

Shabadu

What nonsense! So if we see someone saying: "OMG I saw a ghost that looked like an old lady wandering around Bray Head last Friday", and we happen to *know* that it was someone's granny looking for her cat or something, we'd be thread spoiling for pointing it out, because we wouldn't be 'pro-paranormal'? Twaddle.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=50633958#post50633958

This is the thread Solas made in regarding tightening up the charter in regards to sceptics.

It seems more than a tad idiotic to confine sceptics to one board, and believers in paranormal to another. Is there no room for frank debate?

Zombrex

psi wrote:

Damn right.

Paranormal is for discussing belief in the paranormal. Not scientific discussion on why the beliefs are in place.

Hold on one damn minute there.

My first post was merely to point out that Solas is completely wrong when he links the supersition of a bird flying into a house with the history of animal divination. It doesn't pure and simple.

Whether you believe in the supersition or not is rather irrelevent to that fact. Either Solas doesn't understand what animal divination means or she doesn't under the history of the supersition.

Which is one of the reason why attempted to explained the history of the supersition, twice

Secondly it is ridiculous to say that it is possible to discuss belief in the various superstitions without discussing how they developed in modern culture, or the meaning behind the superstitions themselves. It also never says that in the forum chater, in fact discussion is seemingly encourage.

That would be like -

"Hi everyone, kinda new at this but wanted to.."
"Do you believe in Jesus?!!"
"Er .. sorry .. who is Jesus?"
"Son of God .. now do you believe in him?"
"Wait .. son of god? Can you explain a bit more.."
"Nope, read the charter! Now, DO YOU BELIEVE IN HIM?"
"Er, no ... is that the correct answer?"
"Sorry WRONG answer! You are banned from Christianity forum"
"Wait, can I at least ask questions?"
"Nope, banned!"

The OP was clearly asking a question about the supersition. The topic is clearly the superstition about birds entering the house.

I never said the superstition was wrong, though Solas herself stated that other superstitions such as not walking under the ladder are nonsense, so I am a bit puzzled why my post is considered thread spoiling.

How is me explaining how it arose in culture and the meaning behind it thread spoiling?

Please explain that one to me because I really don't get this?

Shabadu

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50604551&postcount=7

^ Solas accusing someone of '****-stirring' for holding a different and valid opinion to his here.

This is akin to suggesting a politics forum where no-one can hold a different political view to the Moderator.