Water contaminated by Slurry from Farm - what next?

Maxwell

Im not sure if this is the correct forum to place this thread in, but I was hoping that someone might have come accross something like this before and maybe able to post some advice.

I live in a rural area along with 3 other houses and in the vicinity of a farmhouse/farm. I have my own well and on Stephen's evening we discovered an awful smell from the water. The best way of describing it is that it smells of a farm (i.e. slurry/silage smell). We checked with our next door neighbours and the house next to us had the same problem, although the said they had it for a few days. The other 2 houses on the road don't have a problem.

As you can expect, we stopped using the water and trying calling the health board/council etc. That time of year, no one was in offices and there was no emergency numbers. We have had to wait till yesterday to have anyone come out and test the water. The health board have come out and taken samples from my house and the house next door. But on asking what they would do the answer was they would test it and tell us what was in it? Then we asked, and if it is contaminated - then what? Basically nothing but a suggestion from them to "not to drink the water"

We were proactive as we knew this would be the case and got the water tested at the local creamery as a favour and the person there noted that the water was highly and seriously contaminated and the initial tests showed up e-coli, chemicals etc etc and their suggestion was that if given to an infant or elderly person it would make them seriously unwell and could even be fatal..........I have a 5 month old child.

So far, we have had no water for over a week and no action taken. We are currently waiting on the council to see if they can hook us up temporaily to a local scheme (we asked the local scheme - and they told us NO!)

I was reading up on the EPA site and have contacted them, but they will not come out to investigate until we have "exhausted all measures with the local authorities"

Then last night a local person who is a part time farmer arrived at our door and offered us water/help etc and then told us that he knows how our water is being affected. He said (but didn't want to be name) the farmer nearest to us has had slurry spilling out onto the road and down drains and it was clear to the eye. He was in no doubt that the problem came from there.

.....so what happens now?

My first priority is to get water for my wife and child (apart from the drums we are buying)
Once this happens, how do I get someone/an authority to investigate a pollution of an area's water supply?

Do I ?
get my solictor involved
just wait and then request the EPA to come out
approach the farmer

Can anyone help or suggest something else that I should do. I really don't want to "got to war" with a farmer, but I need water for my family and I invested over 2,000 in a well only 2 years ago - I want compensation if I can use it again?

Help!

Sponge Bob

approach the farmer, if he wont accept responsibility for the slurry spillage and remediation thereof then you must try solicitor/ council water engineers / council environmental engineers/ council planners / inland waterways (if it is heading for a river or lake to kill fishies ) and then the EPA in some order or other.

as a minimum he should sort out tanks of clean water for you and yours while he cleans the well and gets the slurry out of the water table .

"the polluter pays" is the guiding principle but as he has affected 3 houses that you know of , not the entire shannon basin, it may be best to approach and informally resolve as you live near him.

sh1t happens

Dub13

Moved from Consumer Issues.

You should get a better response here.

muffler

Sponge Bob wrote:

approach the farmer, if he wont accept responsibility for the slurry spillage and remediation thereof then you must try solicitor/ council water engineers / council environmental engineers/ council planners / inland waterways (if it is heading for a river or lake to kill fishies ) and then the EPA in some order or other.

as a minimum he should sort out tanks of clean water for you and yours while he cleans the well and gets the slurry out of the water table .

"the polluter pays" is the guiding principle but as he has affected 3 houses that you know of , not the entire shannon basin, it may be best to approach and informally resolve as you live near him.

sh1t happens

That is good advice and it summarises most of the available options.

I think the main thing to keep in mind is that proof will be needed before making contact with the farmer. I would certainly request a written report from the E.H.O. who tested the water and request written confirmation that the local H.E.A. are in a position to act on this matter.

I would also contact the county chemist (local authority) and perhaps it would do no harm to discuss this with the local Councillors

muffler

Maxwell wrote:

I have my own well.............. We are currently waiting on the council to see if they can hook us up temporaily to a local scheme (we asked the local scheme - and they told us NO!)

How come they said no. Was it because you got your own well

Maxwell

Thanks for the advice to date

I would certainly want to have hard facts/proof before I approach a farmer as you can never be sure until then.

Muffler,

They said no when we were initially building the house (because we are about 200 metres from the boundary of where the scheme stops!!!) So we now have a problem and just wanted a temporary supply - they said now again!! So there are 4 children and 4 adults without water to drink,bath etc!

Maxwell

News just in!

Just got initial results of the water test back from the Health Board:

Over 50 types of ecoli found:eek: :eek: :eek:
&
over 2,500 forms of Bacteria!!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

Further checks will be able to distinguish whether ithe contamination is from human or animal waste

And if we hadn't checked the water ourselves - our 5 month child would have drank this!

I shudder to think what would happened to her!

EPA are now starting to pressure the local authority as they are doing nothing!

muffler

You are a lucky man.

Keep the pressure on everyone and try to get as much in writing as you can - it may prove valuable later.

I would reiterate my previous advice that you should talk to the local councillor about this. Its a sad reflection on county councils but the political influence appears to be the only way to get results.

keep us posted on developments

Maxwell

Thanks Muffler!

We have placed phone calls with 3 of the local councillors and 1 high profile polictical official. I am going to continue to have as many people involved in this as possible to ensure something gets done.

I really just want water for my wife and child, then to find out where it came from, get them stopped/ordered to clean up their act - then I want my well cleaned completely.

Will keep this thread updated - as Im sure this happens to others

Questions:
Anyone know what would happen to a person that drank a litre of water containing: Over 50 types of ecoli and 2,500 forms of Bacteria?

BrianD3

The water may still be OK to drink as long as you boil it first. The health board should be able to give advice about this. They may tell you not to drink it even after boiling as some pathogens may be heat resistant. The ecoli themselves are not the big problem as most are harmless however they do indicate that the well has been contamintaed with sh1t and therefore other pathogens could be present. Many, many wells in Ireland would test positive for ecoli (even ones where the water looks and smells OK) yet people drink from them for years with no ill effects. Perhaps they develop some sort of immunity to the organisms in the water, I don't know.

Clearly your water has recently been contaminated with sh1t if you can smell it from the water. But it will be very difficult to prove who caused the contamination. The source of the pollution could literally be any farmer within several miles radius. Just because someone says they saw an unnamed farmer letting slurry down a drain is no proof of anything. The farmer who caused the pollution may not even be aware of what he has done. Also, if it turns out that the waste is human origin then it could be from any septic tank in the area - maybe even your own tank!

However do get back on to the county council water pollution department and insist that they investigate it

Also cleaning the well will not be feasible, you'll have to just let nature take its course. If the source of the pollution stops the well may regenerate itself after a while. You could bore another well but if its from the same groundwater source as the first well it will also be contaminated. You could install a treatment system for the water eg chlorination but that would be espensive.

Anyway keep the pressure on the county council and health board, they will be able to advise you what to do. It sounds like you are going about this the right way. Also do a google search on water pollution, ecoli, groundwater, boiling etc. there should be loads of info.

the_syco

BrianD3 wrote:

Many, many wells in Ireland would test positive for ecoli (even ones where the water looks and smells OK) yet people drink from them for years with no ill effects. Perhaps they develop some sort of immunity to the organisms in the water, I don't know.

There was an article a while back that stated that even though the locals wouldn't get sick from it, anyone drinking it (relatives, friends, etc) could get sick from it, if they drank it when they visited.

Maxwell

Thanks for your advice

Further developments:

There are now 2 more houses affected and their water is completely contaminated resulting from tests from the health board. That makes 4 houses affected and basically rules out one of our septic tank's being the problem. Along with the news that there is a huge levels of chemicals in the sample also, the finger is starting to point to the farm.

Still no action from any authority, even though 3 children have been to the doctor with problems and another 2 children now at risk!

I really can't understand it to be honest, if there was some fish found dead beside a river there would be a huge investigation, but when 8 adults and 5 children have no water to wash, shower, drink with - nothing!

Will keep you all informed.

muffler

Just thinking of the long term water situation. There are 4 houses there and all with water from wells. The mains water is 200 metres away.

I know you explained that the promoters of the water scheme had refused your request for a connection but surely if all 4 householders made an application then it would be mutually beneficial. I assume that it is a Group Water Supply Scheme and if it is still in private ownership then I dont understand why they would turn down the chance of getting more funds.

Is the private water itself sourced from a Council watermain or from a private well. If it is from a council main somewhere you would have a wee bit of leverage.

I would ask the Council to provide a water supply to your houses and you may find, in light of the present problems, that you could get a more sympathetic hearing.

In the short term ask them for an emergancey supply and if they refuse highlight this issue in the local media. Just be careful not to point the finger of blame at anyone if contacting the media and only highlight the conditions you find yourself now living in and and the refusal by the council and/or the scheme promoters to give you a connection.

Maxwell

hi Muffler,

Yes, we have now all made a request to the Group Water Supply Scheme board through the council in writing (a further request to temporary supply).

We have asked the council for a temporary supply, and all they have done is compose a letter to the scheme.

Thanks re: advice on the local media - they will be contacted on Monday morning if we have nothing resolved today (and therefore we will be without water for another weekend)

Just another update/summary:

4 houses are affected with one of the houses (with 3 kids)without running water since 20th December!!

Up to this morning, we have heard NOTHING back from the County Council!

We have had NO investigation into the source of the problem i.e. not one body has come out to investigate the area (Health Board tested water on 03.01 and informed us water was highly contaminated on 04.01 - yet nothing has been done to help)

We have had NO help from anyone in getting connected to running water

We have been in contact with 3 public representatives(politician's) and we have received no help and no action!

The local media will become involved on Monday morning if nothing is done today or over the weekend. I am going to arrange for all the families (including screaming kids) to present ourselves at the office of the county council demanding: Connection to water and a complete investigation into the source of the pollution.

muffler

Thanks for the update. I would try faxing a couple of letters/queries to both the Council and the health board this morning if possible asking what progress has been made and what time scale they have put in place for further investigations of this problem.

No point in trying to contact them on Friday afternoon as the technical/engineering staff are all out at "meetings" or "site inspections".
I worked for our local council for about 10 years and believe me it is impossible to get anyone in authority on a Friday afternoon.

Do advise them in an amicable way that if the problem is not reolved by Monday that you will be left with little or no option but to highlight this in the media.

I would also put the points to the councillors in writing also. Advise them also of your intention to go to the media and I dont think they will be too happy to have to answer questions on the matter so maybe they might get their fingers out and do something.

The reason I keep harping on about "put it in writing" is that this way it can be recorded for future reference whereas the content of a phone call can be denied or twisted about to suit someone.

keep in touch

Maxwell

Thanks Muffler for your continued advice and ear!

I have just sent a detailed mail to my local official who has been aware of our problem since 28th Dec after I received a letter from him in the post requesting for me to fill in a form to set up a new group water scheme (which takes weeks/months to implement) - hence my e-mail is strongly detailed and expressing the need for immediate help (i.e. water) and not a bleeding form to fill out!!!

We keep you posted and I am waiting for new before 1pm and then the e-mails/faxes will start flowing to everyone connected!

Maxwell

Sent e-mail to all involved in the county council - Environment/Health/Housing and their bosses and have cc local councillors and 2 elected representatives.

.....lets see what happens

Maxwell

Another update:

Isn't is amazing that 2 of the people on the e-mail list have just arrived at my front door and have informed my wife that we can now temporarily connect to the scheme?

.....but they then said that it is up to us to connect etc (which is fine) - but then said it would cause too much money to investigate how the water became contaminated??

Basically - there you go connect to the water and forget about the whole episode?

A farm has polluted the water of a number of households and maybe the local river and its now a case of keeping our mouth shut? What are these people in the county council actually paid to do?

This is not over.........

EPA are next to be contacted

muffler

Glad to hear the good news re temp. connection.

Go for it. Get connected and use the water. In these situations I think that once you have your connection they wont remove it again. Having said that you will still probably have to pay some form of contribution to the private scheme.

As previously advised. check out the sourced supply of the private scheme ie. from councils own water supply?

By all means push for a full investigation but only after you and your neighbours have been sorted out with a decent water supply.

Maxwell

All weekend spent trying to connect a temporary supply.....connected and thought everything was in order yesterday - woke up this morning to find that the water is not running to our tanks now. There is not enough to provide water to 3 house because of where we are connected is not enough. Feck!

Now have to investigate further to see what can be done.

muffler

Sounds like you need a pump as your tanks are too high for gravity feed.

Short term solution would be to get a few large drums that can be filled (at ground level) for storage purposes and then "bucketed" or pumped to attic.

Contact the local waterworks caretaker who should be able to advise better.

Long term in the absence of a pump/proper feed you would need an extra storage tank in your attic. Is the water running to the tanks at night? It may be that with low pressure and a larger demand in the morning that you are experiencing a shortage

Maxwell

Yeah, we were thinking of the pump allright, but as this is supposed to be "temporary" - a quick fix is the priority.

Looks like we are going to have to connect to another source as the current one is not giving enough pressure.

At least some good news! We had the county council environment section out and they have started their investigation and have been looking around the local farms, river and general area and have informed us that they will on to update us (hopefully this won't take weeks!) .......at least we have some progress though!

Sponge Bob

did you not try an informal resolution to this at all ????

if that was my local farmer and if 3 houses were affected I would have told him to get a big tank over + a pump to feed us while he sorted teh groundwater !

had he refused then I would have gone official. Now you have gone official you had better inform the following agencies as well, **** gotta go somewhere (hint....downhill)

Water Quality

GSI and EPA

Fishies

CFB

Victor

Are all the valves open on the supply pipe?

Maxwell

Another update.

Our tanks are now full with water and the pressure is now fine (think part of the pipe might have been frozen on Sunday night and then affected the pressure/flow.

We are going to connect to a larger connection to ensure better supply and the co co are actually helping us with that.

Posted by:Sponge Bob
if that was my local farmer and if 3 houses were affected I would have told him to get a big tank over + a pump to feed us while he sorted teh groundwater !

Oh believe me, I have thought of that at the beginning, but you are then leaving yourself wide open to slander issues. There is no evidence (yet) to confirm that it is indeed a particular farmer and if you imply that it is his farm, he can sue if you cannot prove it.

We have had to be very careful on this, but when we are completely sorted with water, then I will follow up on the investigation on where the source of the problem came from.

Maxwell

Victor wrote:

Are all the valves open on the supply pipe?

Yes, thanks

We checked that to ensure all was okay - but now realise that it was because of the freezing nights of Sat/Sun that caused it. But now that there is a flow, this shouldn't happen again.

Go to your Solicitor, or google the rule in Rylands -v- Fletcher

Sponge Bob

I am glad to hear that ye got clean water in 2 weeks (christmas included) , the rest is incidental TBH .

Informal approaches are not slander as long as you word it " I was wondering if you knew" " Have you heard anything" "Would you have any idea" . Hence INFORMAL . Then you wait to see if there is an admission or an offer of help.

FORMAL is along the lines of " I believe there is slurry in my well , do you do slurry" that can get slanderous but you are on safe ground as long as you understand the law of gravity when it comes to water and do not accuse farmers who live lower down than your well

OFFICIAL is getting an Official to do the Formal for you. Officials do not do Informal .

You may as well get every agency in the country on the case now.

Slander does not distinguish between formal and informal communications.

But a basic requirement for slander is that there must be publication to a 3rd party. So if you say to a farmer 'you are polluting my well', or 'are you polluting my well' with noone else around, there is no publication and no slander. In fact you could approach every farmer in the area and say this. But if you say to a 3rd party 'XY is polluting my well' then you get on dangerous ground.

Victor

'you are polluting my well' - will get you thrown off the farm, possibly with ashotgun pointed at you.

'are you polluting my well' - will get the farmer's back up.

'XY is polluting my well' - will get you sued.

'Hi, I wonder if you could help me, theres a smell from my water and I wonder if you know if anyone slurry has been spread / spilled recently' - resonably safe, whether siad to a polluter or an official.

You generally are safe making a complaint to an official, whether formal or informal as this is a defence against slander. You must however be genuine in that complaint, you cannot do it maliciously

Sponge Bob

Victor wrote:

'you are polluting my well' - will get you thrown off the farm, possibly with ashotgun pointed at you.

'are you polluting my well' - will get the farmer's back up.

'XY is polluting my well' - will get you sued.

'Hi, I wonder if you could help me, theres a smell from my water and I wonder if you know if anyone slurry has been spread / spilled recently' - resonably safe, whether siad to a polluter or an official.

Correct Victor. By informal I meant that you state something like

" My well IS polluted and we have young babies in the house so I am VERY worried about it , and don't know what to do, and don't fancy the hospital for the christmas. Has anything like this ever happened around here before ? and WHERE do you think the pollution could have come from. ? "

If the farmer clams up and slams the door at this point you thank him for his help
If the farmer points the finger at another farmer you thank him for his help
If the farmer offers assistance you thank him for his help
If the farmer admits everything you thank him for his help

Its all very non confrontational and neighbourly and may well be the best approach if the pollution instance is small and has been contained and can be worked around with a water tank for a few weeks.

If he has poisoned half the county then its different but Maxwell knows the terrain in his own area as I do mine .

If I took formal action every time a neighbours cow broke out and trashed my garden then I would not be on neighbourly terms with my neighbours !