Midlands bog men

the real ramon

Just finished reading the articles in todays Irish Times about the two men found in bogs in the midlands. I knew the Celts did ritual killings and placed the bodies in bogs, but I wasn't aware of any in Ireland before. Are these the first such findings in IReland? And considering they are dated to about 300 BC are they Celts. I've read much conflicting views on when the Celts and/or Indo-Europeans arrived in Ireland and how much affect this had i.e. cultural change only or waves of immigrants. What's the consensus on all this if there is any?

the real ramon

boneless

There are a number of examples of bog bodies in Ireland. The debate about the Celts diesplacing a 'native' Irish culture is open-ended... read Barry Raftery's 'Pagan Celtic Ireland' and Barry Cunliffe's 'The Ancient Celts' and join the debate!!

Celtic culture did get here, but that could have been via trade and other contacts (PIRACY!!!)

netwhizkid

To add to the discussion, I found a preserved walking stick in a bog once was about 8 at the time, and was with my parent cutting turf (before we moved up the social ladder) It was really fascinating and ended up being used to stir paint though :eek: Haven't seen the thing in years now though. Amazing what can be found there, once in the fire grate i found a stone with a fish fossil in it after the turf had burnt off in the fire.

radioman

the real ramon wrote:

Just finished reading the articles in todays Irish Times about the two men found in bogs in the midlands. I knew the Celts did ritual killings and placed the bodies in bogs, but I wasn't aware of any in Ireland before. Are these the first such findings in IReland? And considering they are dated to about 300 BC are they Celts. I've read much conflicting views on when the Celts and/or Indo-Europeans arrived in Ireland and how much affect this had i.e. cultural change only or waves of immigrants. What's the consensus on all this if there is any?

the real ramon

Do you have a link to this story?

the real ramon

No link I'm afraid, read it in the old fashioned way, nice, nice, newsprint!

the real ramon

boneless wrote:

There are a number of examples of bog bodies in Ireland. The debate about the Celts diesplacing a 'native' Irish culture is open-ended... read Barry Raftery's 'Pagan Celtic Ireland' and Barry Cunliffe's 'The Ancient Celts' and join the debate!!

Celtic culture did get here, but that could have been via trade and other contacts (PIRACY!!!)

Thanks for the tips boneless, will search out those books as soon as I can afford to.

boneless

the real ramon wrote:

Thanks for the tips boneless, will search out those books as soon as I can afford to.

Both are available in Public Libraries... as they are text books they cost a bit!! Everyone check out the BBC Timewatch program this coming week. I'm not sure what day, but there is a special on bog bodies with an emphasis on the last two found in Ireland.

brianthebard

I was told by an archeology student that the bodies would belong to the "shadow" period. Ashamed to say as a history student I don't really know what that means. It is the first example of such bodies being found in Ireland and if I remember the article correctly there will be a bbc programme bout it shortly.

gorm

brianthebard wrote:

if I remember the article correctly there will be a bbc programme bout it shortly.

9:00pm BBC2 Friday 20jan (next friday)

brianthebard

Cool thanks for the update that should be really interesting.

Standard Toaster

Just a reminder that Timewatch is on tonite. Should be interesting.

boneless

I recorded the Timewatch special on the bog bodies BUT... it got wiped on me this morning Does anyone have a copy of it???

lostexpectation

watched it, twas interesting, i thought when they said they were placed at boundaries it was as a warning but it was interesting that the were pressed into bog to stall them to make sure they stayed in this world and not the next...

lizbeth

I caught part of Nova on PBS over here (in the states) the other day, they were discussing bog bodies, was pretty interesting. They specifically talked about the Irish bodies that were found in 2003. The website doesnt give much info on what was on the show, but it may be downloadable at some point, too.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bog/

Tiriel

Saw the showing that was on BBC a few weeks ago, I'm sure it was the same one. Really interesting, will be a big attraction when on show in Nat. Museum. It's exciting but eerie at the same time, they're so well preserved. The close-ups of the hands especially, the fingerprints and the pores.. it's amazing.

clonycavanman

You haven't a scooby of making sense of any of this. Nobody knows who the celts were, if they travelled around in a gang taking over places or if they were merely an envied fashion movement dogged by imitators and copy-cats, if the Irish language was brought to Ireland by celts, or spread from Ireland in distorted forms to neighbouring places, or if the Irish language and the Irish people all arrived together some time after the last Ice age (NB-only the most modern version of homo sapiens has ever lived in Ireland). But with all this uncertainty, I was moved when I viewed the statue of the 'dying Gaul or Galatian' in the Capitoline museum in Rome; without a stitch on him, but wearing his torc that can be found in gold hoards in Ireland.

boneless

clonycavanman wrote:

You haven't a scooby of making sense of any of this. Nobody knows who the celts were, if they travelled around in a gang taking over places or if they were merely an envied fashion movement dogged by imitators and copy-cats, if the Irish language was brought to Ireland by celts, or spread from Ireland in distorted forms to neighbouring places, or if the Irish language and the Irish people all arrived together some time after the last Ice age (NB-only the most modern version of homo sapiens has ever lived in Ireland). But with all this uncertainty, I was moved when I viewed the statue of the 'dying Gaul or Galatian' in the Capitoline museum in Rome; without a stitch on him, but wearing his torc that can be found in gold hoards in Ireland.

That's exactly why the Iron Age in Ireland is so enigmatic and worth studying!! You have just posed all the relevant questions in this post and I give kudos and respect to you...

OK folks... ideas please...

genie

Does anyone know what the "shadow" period is, as mentioned above? I've Googled it and came up with nothing.

Thanks!

boneless

I think it just refers to the fact that archaeologists know fcek all about the period... it seems we have a distinct lack of most of the material culture associated with the rest of Europe during the Iron Age....

genie

Thanks for that!

boneless

genie wrote:

Thanks for that!

I should have added that our knowledge is expanding at the same time.
The eponymos (spelling?) title of this thread is one area...

Cromwellino

I have a book from a DR. P.V. Glob from Denmark "The Bog People" 1965 in which he credits Ireland with 19 finds, in fact he credits the first properly documented find in County Down. Drumkeragh Mountain, written by Lady Moira in 1781. The woman is supposed to have been a Danish Viking. There are also 2 bog bodies on display in the Nat. Museum Dublin at present.

the real ramon

Cromwellino wrote:

I have a book from a DR. P.V. Glob from Denmark "The Bog People" 1965 in which he credits Ireland with 19 finds, in fact he credits the first properly documented find in County Down. Drumkeragh Mountain, written by Lady Moira in 1781. The woman is supposed to have been a Danish Viking. There are also 2 bog bodies on display in the Nat. Museum Dublin at present.

Saw the bodies in nat. museum just about a week ago, brings you closer to that world than man-made artefacts.

never realised finds were made that long ago, I wonder what they made of them back then

boneless

Check out the latest edition of Archaeology Ireland; Ned Kelly of the NMI has an article/feature in it on the possible(? His theory!!) reasons the bog bodies were placed where they where in the landscape.

It's an interesting theory too!!

EamonnKeane

Why does everyone assume they were ritual killings? Couldn't they just be murders or executions? Is there evidence on the bodies to suggest otherwise?

boneless

EamonnKeane wrote:

Why does everyone assume they were ritual killings? Couldn't they just be murders or executions? Is there evidence on the bodies to suggest otherwise?

There are common features to a lot of the killings which would give reason to believe that they are ritual. The act of execution, by the way, could be described as a ritual; even in the modern sense. It is and was carried out by societies for social, political and religious reasons. That adds up to ritual in my opinion.

Tacitus tells us that "... the needlessly vicious..." were drowned by Iron Age Europeans "... in a wet place (a bog or marsh?) and were pinned down by birch stakes through their arms..." That sounds a lot like like one of the recent bog bodies!!

We have to be wary of the classical sources too; they were written to be presented to 'civilised' Roman and Greek audiences so they can be sensationalist in places. There are accounts in Strabo, Pliny and Caesars writings on Celtic ritual, and in some cases the archaeological evidence has backed up these accounts.

I would urge you to read Barry Cunliffe on this matter. He has written extensively on the subject and has translated the evidence onto the classical sources. In my opinion he has made a good case for ritual.

brianthebard

EamonnKeane wrote:

Why does everyone assume they were ritual killings? Couldn't they just be murders or executions? Is there evidence on the bodies to suggest otherwise?

the overwhelming evidence that at least one of the bodies was that of a well off man, well fed, almost 6 foot (pretty much a giant for that age) well groomed with hair gel imported from the continent suggests that these people were not just vagrants or commoners. Also if we were to extrapolate the brehon laws backwards from the early christian writings (there is some debate about whether or not this is valid, but bear with me) then we could assume that execution was not a common punishment for crimes. We can see this to be the case even in the myths and sagas.

I have read of people being put to sea at the ninth wave (link between this world and the other) in a barrel and leaving it to the gods to decide whether they live or die, but that is the only instance of possible execution that I have read about with regards celtic people.

boneless

The exhibition based on bog bodies is opening later this month in NMI Kildare Street. There is a seminar on 17th June, but you have to book a place on it. Costs €20 waged, €10 student, OAP, unwaged. Booking is by application only. Check out the NMI website for more info.

GoldieBear

Read article today about midlands bog bodies and it stated that they were buried strategically at the borders of major kingdoms. I don't know how true this actually is.

ednwireland

GoldieBear wrote:

Read article today about midlands bog bodies and it stated that they were buried strategically at the borders of major kingdoms.

the only downside of that theory is where are most bodies found? where people are digging guess what, they are usually clearing boundaries i wont be convinced of that theory for a while

boneless

Ned Kelly (see post of mine above) has posited the landscape boundary theory. It's an interesting one but I think he is being too 'flexible' with the evidence. At least he is getting the debate moving again, though.

The exhibition in the NMI is fantastic by the way. I would urge you all to visit it.

GoldieBear

boneless wrote:

Ned Kelly (see post of mine above) has posited the landscape boundary theory. It's an interesting one but I think he is being too 'flexible' with the evidence. At least he is getting the debate moving again, though.

The exhibition in the NMI is fantastic by the way. I would urge you all to visit it.

I did and its brilliant. Going to the museum again tomorrow. Facinating stuff indeed.