Laptop for pro-audio?

frobisher

I've been using a Dell 2.8gig desktop with 1024 ram running a digi001, cubase sx and reason for recording for a while. It's performs perfectly and I'm reluctant to change it. I use a basic laptop for work and other stuff and the fact that I have 2 PCs is really becoming a pain. I need the portability of the laptop so am considering selling the desktop and getting a more powerful laptop to handle my pro-audio.

I often find laptops sluggish (might just be lack of RAM) and the fans are often too loud for recording beside.
Anybody with thoughts/experiences on using a PC laptop for pro audio? What interfaces are you sing?

Beecher

I do use my laptop for audio. I dont find the fans an issue as all I do is instrumental work and my mics are unidirectional, so even if the source signal wasnt too loud it still wouldnt pic up the fans as long as the mic wasnt facing the laptop (I dont find the fans half as loud as my desktop ones anyways). As far as ram goes, my laptop with a gig of ram coupled with a 7,200 rpm hard-drive reaps the same results as my desktop.

frobisher wrote:

What interfaces are you sing?

A lexicon omega, nice and small with 2 great pre-amps.

sturgo

I used a laptop with pretty much the same applications as you mentioned for about 2 years. For basic audio editing, sampling and some DJing it was fine. But as soon as I started to multi-track and use softsynths I began to run into major problems regarding latencey and general instability. In particular Reason 3 was giving me serious headaches. In fact, it wasn't the actual audio software that was giving me problems, but Windows XP. Despite what people say, I don't believe Windows is degsined to run hi-end audio / video editing applications.

To cut a long storey short, 6 months ago I got a virus I couldn't get rid of without formatting my hard drive, so I sold my laptop and ordered a Macmini. I haven't looked back since. Things just work. It's amazing... I don't have the hastles of high latencey, loud fan noises, crap audio drivers, software / hardware conflicts, stalling / hanging, crashes, blue-screens, viruses, spyware, and sh1t just not working for no particular reason.

In other words I highly recomend changing over to Apple Mac.

Currently I'm using:
Macmini (1gig ram),
12" Powerbook (768 ram),
Harmony Audio firewire sound module,
M-Audio 02 usb keyboard,

Reason 3
Recycle
Ableton Live 4
Peak 4
Artuira Minimoog

Doctor J

I use a Dell Latitude C610, 1.8Ghz P4m and 1gig of ram. I run any audio stuff off an external Carillon firewire drive, just the OS and program files on the laptop hard drive. You have to purge a lot of the crap that gets into your startup folders in order for everything to run smoothly, make sure there are no unnecessary processes running in the background (even anti-virus or anti-spyware). Anything that calls on the processor occasionally is bad news for audio production.

jtsuited

powerbook powerbook powerbook.

Get a mac. Very rare to find professionals using anything else. And it's true what they say about changing to mac. You will never go back to those horrible windows machines. Look into it. Don't buy a Windows Laptop.

Anima

Macs are easier to get everything setup and are fairly stable plus they have a few programs which are unique to them ie. logic, max/msp etc but a windows alternative can be just as good if you know what you're doing.

frobisher

The Mac v PC debate leaves me cold. It's a moot point at this stage as PC performance has finally become reliable. I have owned and worked on macs and PCs and as long as your systems are powerful enough and tweaked right I find little performance difference. If PCs are so crap why does my Dell desktop perform what I need as good as any mac I've worked on?

The question is not mac v PC, it's desktop PC v laptop PC.

Beecher: What is your machine spec. And how audio/plug-in/soft synth intensive is your music?

Sturgo: I've been in that situation. It's hell!! Except it was a mac that caused me the problems. What was your PC spec?

jtsuited: I did move to mac. And went back to PC.

Doctor J: Is your Dell noisey?

Doctor J

The fan can be, occaisionally, but never loud enough to be an issue. It is a couple of years old now and the Latitude D series, from what I have seen of them, are a bit more subtle in the cooling department.

sturgo

Like I said, for me the main problem wasn't the Audio software or the hardware, but the operating system. At the end of tha day your setup is only as good as the OS. Personally I found XP to be far less reliable that Tiger or Panther. But for the record I was running a P4, 2.4Mhz, 512ram, XP pro SP2.

I wouldn't say PCs are crap, just that for audio production Macs are far better. Remember, the vast majority of high-end professional multimedia applications are run on Apple Mac.

jtsuited

frobisher wrote:

The Mac v PC debate leaves me cold. It's a moot point at this stage as PC performance has finally become reliable. I have owned and worked on macs and PCs and as long as your systems are powerful enough and tweaked right I find little performance difference. If PCs are so crap why does my Dell desktop perform what I need as good as any mac I've worked on?

If pc's are so great, why do the VAST MAJORITY of audio professionals use Apple setups?
If you are working seriously in audio, pc's (even recent ones) can be an absolute nightmare. I've been through it, and can easily say macs save you a lot of hassle. Why are there 1 million windows users converting to mac every year?

Beecher

frobisher wrote:

Beecher: What is your machine spec?

I have a Pentium M Processor 750 (1.86Ghz, 2MB L2 cache, 533Mhz FSB).
1024 mb Ram 533mhz.
60gb 7,200 rpm Hdd.
Radeon X300 128mb Graphics Card.

One point is im using the driver from here which will increase performance. Taken form the website "This driver works in kernel mode without using the Windows usbaudio.sys. This means direct access to the hardware and way better performance compared to simple solutions." It was well worth the money.

frobisher wrote:

Beecher: how audio/plug-in/soft synth intensive is your music?

Soft Synth: Generally use at max 5, this would include drumkit from hell running a kit a few hundred megs in size.

Plug In: Generally around 10, Lexicon reverb, Amplitube, eq's, chorus, flangers etc

Audio Tracks: At max 14, 4 for guitar work (Rythym/lead with overdubs), 2 for acoustic guitar, 2 for bass, upto 4 for vocals and 2 for various items (like bongo's etc).

I got the following charts from carilliondirect.com





This was done with a laptop running Cubase Sx3 through a Firewire Audiophile with a latency of 5.667ms. As you can see the desktop replacement (read: Laptop) beat the AC-1 LE and the Apple dual G5 on everything bar trackcount, and even then its still racking up nearly 60 tracks.

frobisher

Sturgo:
I agree with your basic idea. My experience is that when your PC is tweaked right it is rock solid. My Dell hasn't crashed once since I bought it and I have really pushed it.

Jtsuited:
To be honest I don't think PCs are amazing. I have no opinion about them, they are just tools and they have served me very, very well. When I first started studying sound I was all about the gear. Now I care less than ever. I think making music can be easily hijacked by the persuit of audio fidelity and having the best gear. They are two very different things.

On your "why do pros use mac" question:
There are several reasons, one is that Mac is a brand whereas PC is a general term. It's like the difference between saying Ford and car. In the days when people like avid were pushing the boundaries of computer recording, software designers went with macs because they knew exactly what would be in each machine whereas PCs changed with each model and make. Old habits die hard, especially in a business obsessed with obtaining "industry standard" qualities.

Beecher:
Great post! What brand and model is your laptop? I think I might have to give the Lexicon Omega a trial. Could be the one for me.

sturgo

If your PC setup is rock solid, that's great! Just don't let it anywhere near the internet. Hardware is always going to be different, but if you want to think of in terms of branding it's XP Vs OSx. OSx is by far a better operating system.

Beecher

frobisher wrote:

Great post! What brand and model is your laptop? I think I might have to give the Lexicon Omega a trial. Could be the one for me.

Thank you! My laptop is a Dell Inspiron 6000 I picked up recently off the Dell Outlet store for 600'ish. The Lexicon Omega is a fantastic piece of kit, I was kinda torn between that and the MBox but the DBX pre-amps and midi ports swayed me to the lexicon, the only reason I'd go against it would be the lackluster software bundle but as you allready have Cubase SX thats not an issue.

CmX

apple versus pc debate?
I'll stick with the pc for another while.
although the dual processor thing sounds cool.
I'm using a fuj/siemens 2.7gig laptop with no hassle running sx2, cooledit, all the spectrasonics plugins.
what does give me bother is the usb soundcard I chose.
soundblaster extigy = heaps of latency issues.

sturgo

CmX wrote:

apple versus pc debate?
I'll stick with the pc for another while.
although the dual processor thing sounds cool.
I'm using a fuj/siemens 2.7gig laptop with no hassle running sx2, cooledit, all the spectrasonics plugins.
what does give me bother is the usb soundcard I chose.
soundblaster extigy = heaps of latency issues.

Believe me, once you start to get into multitracking and using softsynths (in realtime) you'll wish you were in mac world.

guitarmano

i normally use a pc to do all my recording and editing but have recently bought a dell inspiron for college use. Is there any way of getting around problem of overloading the sound card..ie hooking up an instrument , guitar or amp to the card direclty and not a sound equivalnt to that of mutilating a cat.???

sturgo

guitarmano wrote:

i normally use a pc to do all my recording and editing but have recently bought a dell inspiron for college use. Is there any way of getting around problem of overloading the sound card..ie hooking up an instrument , guitar or amp to the card direclty and not a sound equivalnt to that of mutilating a cat.???

you'll need to get a good external usb / firewire sound module. like an M-audio or Miglia unit. you can pick one up for about €150. the sound card in your laptop is grand for skype but useless for recording from external sources.

paddylonglegs

Frobisher,

Was talking about a similar subject in dance/electronic forum.

One of the guys gave me this link for Audio specific Laptops.I'm sure all noise problems etc are sorted if its designed specifically with musicians/audio jocks in mind.

Worth a try anyways.....

Link

http://www.nusystems.co.uk/buy.asp?p=0&g=118&b=11

condra

I think one of the reasons people reccommend powerbooks so highly for audio is because they are great machines with top quality components, not just because they're macs. The fans are extremely quiet for example.
I think you should take a serious look at a powerbook or a macbook pro.

In saying that though, the transition to mac may be a pain as Im sure many of your plugins are PC only. Personally I think Logic is a dog. All there other apps are available though arent they, apart from SONAR unfortunatly.

I think some people like the Dell 6000 for audio dont they.. something like that. Ive seen Pros using PC laptops by the way, and obviously desktops like Carillons.

My old Inspiron 5160 was jam packed with ram and well tweaked and rarely hickupped but the move to mac was worth it for so many reasons.
Youre right though, there are plenty of PCs available that will piss all over most macs on paper, but hey, Id rather go to Galway on a magic carpet then a rusty old bike going just as fast.

dabhoys

I got myself a Powerbook 1.67gh and 1.5gig of ram and I do alot of work in pro tools on it and its never gave an ounce of bother. It struggles some times with alot of plug ins but the biggest thing about the macs is the realiability. I've never had a bother with mine. I still use pc but the reason you see alot of professionals using mac for audio production is they are realiable.

A mate of mine uses ableton live all the time. he use to use it on pc and he had it crash at a gig a few times and went and got the same powerbook as me and hasn't had a problem since.

But PC's are still good to. I think its good to make the best of both worlds and use what suits your situation. I needed realiability so I went with mac.

I have see some macs do some crazy **** before and they can be a nitemare to fix if they go nuts. But like every computer they to need maitenance and a little looking after but I find they don't need as much as pc

Doctor J

I have to disagree about the reliability issue. I don't believe for a second that macs are inherently more reliable or and faster than an equivalent PC. If you take the money you spent on the Powerbook, over two grand I'd guess, and spend the exact same amount on a high end laptop you'll see all there is to see about reliability. Same as if you spent however much it costs to get a decent spec G5, let's say two and a half grand or so before you buy your monitor. Go out and spend two and a half grand on a PC and tell me if you have any speed issues. I mean, Apple have started using pretty much the same chipset PCs have been using, are they going to start going slower now?

As for reliability, a well maintained PC setup is just as reliable as a Mac. End of story. The problem PCs have is that people generally use them. You know, they're on the net, they're doing the word and excel stuff, they get the games loaded onto them, bits of ****e freeware, etc etc etc. If people treated their PCs the same way they handle their macs you'd see just how reliable they are. I've had the same laptop here for about three years now, it still runs protools without any problems, still does my email and word and excel, etc hey I even wrote this post on it too

If you spend big money (over two grand) on a PC or mac you're going to get something which will do the speed thing. People don't spend two grand on PCs, a lot of folks just assume their bog standard Dell home PC will cope, which it won't of course, and therein lies the root of the misinformation. If you really invest in a PC with dual core ht processors and super fast bus, spend the money on good ram and a quality disk, you won't have speed or reliability issues. That's the way it is baby.

sturgo

The most unreliable aspect of a PC setup isn't the hardware, it's the operating system. And as we all know XP isn't all that reliable. Particularly when it comes to security. One of the main reasons I use a Mac is because of Tiger. It's streets ahead of XP.

Doctor J

Without question, though it's not as bad as a lot of people would have you believe when you know how to lock it up

sturgo

Doctor J wrote:

Without question, though it's not as bad as a lot of people would have you believe when you know how to lock it up

true

dabhoys

I just find the mac's don't require as much maintenance as a equivalent pc does. no disk defragmenting for one. The lower risk of obtaining a virus and all around more stable os platform that is more realiable than pc.

A friend of mine has a top of the line Laptop that would cost as much if not more then a powerbook and he has nothing but headaches with reinstalling windows and defragging all the time to get the best performance. Its time consuming and a pain. I've spent alot of wasted time maintaining and trying to fix pc's. I've never had that problem with mac. If someone is paying you to do a job and your fighting your computer you don't need that grief. Especially with audio as it really slams a computer resources.

I guess all these issues have more to do with the operating system then the actual hardware. The realiability and peace of mind come from OSx and not the actual hardware.

Another argument for the case is the compatible support from digidesign that is easier for them to offer to a mac over pc's. I've yet to come accross a studio running HD off a pc. I know there is certified pc's to run HD but most studio's opt for mac for a reason.

Just from own personal experience I've found less headaches from macs then from pc's. This has nothing to do with speed and performance. Just general operation. I've had more people ring me with problem with pc's then macs. I've nothing against pc's and I still get the best of both worlds. This is just from my own experience that I prefer to use mac when I need reliability.

At the end of the day its subjective and its all down to wat your comfortable with and what gets the job done.

Doctor J

Defragging only needs to be done to a file once, if indeed it is fragmented at all. Also, defragging will only help files you actually use, so if your friend records loads of tracks and only uses one or two, it won't make a difference whether the rest are fragmented or not. If the OS and program files are not fragmented then he won't notice any performance issues pre and post defragmentation simply because he isn't accessing files which are fragmented. Fragmentation only comes into effect when you access a file on the disk, so defragmenting files you don't use doesn't have any influence. Do you know what rpm his disk is or how many processes are running on the machine? That might have a greater influence than minor fragmentation. Oh, and fragmentation affects OSX too, check this. In fact, OSX actually needs minor fragmentation or it actually slows down performance

I'm not knocking Macs, I'm quite a fan, but I do get a bit peeved at the scaremongering which is used to build on the Mac myth and knock PCs. I've been running XP for almost three years. I've never had to reinstall. I don't have performace issues. I don't have reliability issues. It has been a fantastic platform to run pro-tools on, as you well know

Windows is simply easier to damage through naievity than OSX, as most people log in under administrative accounts whereas OSX to it's credit does try to prevent user damage with a better security structure. I've never seen a botched Windows XP where a user doesn't have admin rights to the prgram files and windows directories and therein is it's greatest weakness. By default new accounts have admin access... which is just stupid. Other than that it is a fine piece of programing and well suited for pro audio.

dabhoys

I'm by no means trying to scare monger off pc. I still use pc's alot but just more a personal preference towards the mac for the audio stuff.

I guess its an age old debate that truly has no end

I guess whatever works for the person is the best option to go with.

Doctor J

Indeed

jtsuited

dabhoys wrote:

I guess its an age old debate that truly has no end

oh i don't know if there's no end!
i'm pretty sure by current trends (1+ million per year changing from windows to mac) that there'll be no more windows left in a few years. With any luck!!!:D

dabhoys

We'll have to wait and see....