They worked like blacks-Mary O'Rourke

LordSutch

What shocks me is the liberal use of the word Sambo (In Ireland) without any knowledge of its origins -
see also post#83.

zoro

ArthurF: Many Irish (including myself) couldn't give a fiddler's what it could mean in another country - it means "sandwich" here.

It's a local (to the country) phrase

rubadub

whiskeyman wrote:

Does anyone else feel the real issue was that she wouldn't accept that it may have offended and wouldn't apologise?

Yes without a doubt. Does anybody really think if she could go back in time she would have still said it? she would probably say she would, I see that as the problem. As mentioned she could have simply said "sorry, I meant the term as a compliment and hope I caused no offence", it is the fact that she is claiming she cannot see how it could cause offence to anybody, anybody that ignorant should not have a hand in running the country.

zoro wrote:

And to whom does she apologise to?

ANYBODY she caused offence to.

zoro wrote:

Do you personally know of any blacks that have been actively offended by what she said?

Do you know any asians who were offended? There were a few caucasians on tv last night who were offended. Why should racism only bother those of the race being discrimiated against? Should I not give a damn about wheelchair access to buildings because I am not in a wheelchair?

as for the trojan cop-out.

WORK LIKE A TROJAN - "Trojan originally referred to the inhabitants of Troy, the ancient city besieged by the Greeks in their efforts to retrieve their queen, Helen, who had been abducted by the son of the King of Troy. According to legend, as recorded in both Vergil's 'Aeneid' and Homer's 'Illiad,' the Trojans were a hard-working, determined, industrious people. Hence: 'He worked like a Trojan." From "Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins" by William and Mary Morris (HarperCollins, New York, 1977, 1988).

Why were the blacks working so hard again?

rubadub

ArthurF wrote:

What shocks me is the liberal use of the word Sambo (In Ireland) without any knowledge of its origins -
see also post#83.

AFAIK it is short for sandwich, whose origin was the Earl of Sandwich who was credited with introducing the food item. I have also seen it spelt sandbo.

Cracker is to a white man as nig ger is to a blackman. I would not be offended by the term being used to describe a jacobs cream cracker.

ken90

I believe the original expression referred to "BOOT BLACKS"

The chap who polished your boots and who worked so very hard.

He could have been any ethanicity.

Does PC around here not include AGEISM????????????????

zoro

rubadub wrote:

ANYBODY she caused offence to.

By that line of attack, every word, ever uttered, by anyone, could possibly offend someone else. So we must spend all our time apologising to *insert random group here* just in case we may have offended them?

rubadub wrote:

Why should racism only bother those of the race being discrimiated against?

In this case - the only possible way a white person could be offended by the remark, is that they were being compared directly to blacks - which is racist itself.

rubadub wrote:

Should I not give a damn about wheelchair access to buildings because I am not in a wheelchair?

And that's related to "working like the blacks" how?
It's a simple matter of physics - a wheel chair user, cannot, physically, use a staircase. They can however use a ramp.

rubadub wrote:

as for the trojan cop-out....

Why were the blacks working so hard again?

I'm gonna have to dig up a few references before I can comment on this again I believe

rubadub

ken90 wrote:

I believe the original expression referred to "BOOT BLACKS"

The chap who polished your boots and who worked so very hard.

Where in the name of jaysus did you get that one!:v:
It is a reference to slavery

rubadub

zoro wrote:

By that line of attack, every word, ever uttered, by anyone, could possibly offend someone else.

Many words could offend people, most apparently are not offensive enough to warranty coverage by the media and get a big thread going...
I dont think if she said she ate a sambo or crackers and cheese for lunch it would have caused much trouble, though some here may have been offended.

zoro wrote:

In this case - the only possible way a white person could be offended by the remark, is that they were being compared directly to blacks - which is racist itself.

That is not the only possible way, as mentioned it infers other races do not work as hard. But I think the real offence was caused by the origin of the term. And her refusal to admit it may cause offence

zoro wrote:

And that's related to "working like the blacks" how?
It's a simple matter of physics - a wheel chair user, cannot, physically, use a staircase. They can however use a ramp.

My point was that discrimination does not only matter to the group that is targeted. Many men do not agree with women being excluded from golf clubs, should they not give a damn about sexism if most women do not?

Orion

Heinrich wrote:

I do not think that the expression originally referred to people with naturally dark skin but rather those poor chaps who were mining coal...

It's actually a reference to slavery. Hard working for no pay.

I personally think that it's just bad judgement on her part. I wouldn't vote for her but I don't consider her racist - based on her record. But using a term like that is ill-considered for a public representative.

zoro

rubadub wrote:

...most apparently are not offensive enough to warranty coverage by the media and get a big thread going...

I really feel the media are jumping on the PC wagon simply for the sake of being PC.
I really really hate PC ...

But I think the real offence was caused by the origin of the term. And her refusal to admit it may cause offence

Regardless of it's origins, the term now means that someone has worked exceptionally hard.

My point was that discrimination does not only matter to the group that is targeted

You do make valid points, but racism is something that has quite a large contingent of PC-bandwagon media outlets, as well as "anti-racism nazi's" mentioned earlier.
It's really gotten beyond a joke, when someone who is black, and is visibly and physically so (ok ok, a dark dark shade of brown), is required (by the PC brigade) to be referred to as coloured.

It's just an example of how far we've gone without dealing with the actual issues of racism. Calling someone "coloured" instead of "black" is not how you deal with racist problems.

zoro

Macros42 wrote:

But using a term like that is ill-considered for a public representative.

I'd argue that a term is either wholly unacceptable, or acceptable.
No ifs buts or ands.

Either we (including public representatives) can say "worked like a black" - which includes Mrs O'Hara from down the road who knows all about all ... or no one can, and punishment should be dealt to those that do.

</rant>

It seems to me that any time someone now asks for a little bit of respect and decency, there's always a whole raft of messages about how PC the world has become. There is no such thing as the PC Brigade, what there is though is an anti-PC Brigade. Frankly, I don't think it was crime of the century, but admitting that is was ill judged and leaving it at that is hardly beyond her.

Orion

zoro wrote:

I'd argue that a term is either wholly unacceptable, or acceptable.
No ifs buts or ands.

</rant>

You saying it to me in private is a lot different that a person who is running for public office saying it in a nationally broadcast speech. That's what I'm talking about. The term itself is archaic and is used less and less. What I meant by ill-advised was that it caused this bull**** storm that's erupted over it.

zoro

Macros42 wrote:

You saying it to me in private is a lot different that a person who is running for public office saying it in a nationally broadcast speech

No - the sole difference is that more people hear it.

And of those "more" people, you have the crowds who'll jump on anyone who may even possibly, silghtly have offended someone else.

And then you'll have people like me who say "ah would you ever shut up you lot and get a life"

rubadub

zoro wrote:

It's really gotten beyond a joke, when someone who is black, and is visibly and physically so (ok ok, a dark dark shade of brown), is required (by the PC brigade) to be referred to as coloured.

I agree, many would not like the term coloured either! it seems once a term is in common use then it is non-pc again. I bet in 50 years "traveller" will be a no-no, tinker was fine at one time, I think knacker was too (just refers to a horse renderer which many travellers were by trade). Just like school kids would be scolded for the use of "spastic", now I hear they are not allowed to use the word that replaced it (can't remember what it is). Some would prefer "african-descent" or something else, I have heard caucasians saying they are not white, but more of a pinkish colour! I think yellow is more offensive to asians than black is to negroids (some would even find the proper term offensive!).

I dont think the word black is the problem it is the origin. If some football manager said his players "ran like a jew from a gas chamber" it would probably cause offence. The trojan war is a legend, the holocaust and black slavery are not.

democrates

Isn't it ironic that the people who want to see this phrase disappear have contributed to imprinting it on the public consciousness through kicking up a big row about it, and thereby increased the risk of it being used more in the future...

John_C

democrates wrote:

Isn't it ironic that the people who want to see this phrase disappear have contributed to imprinting it on the public consciousness through kicking up a big row about it, and thereby increased the risk of it being used more in the future...

It is indeed ironic that people who say the term is offensive are perfectly happy to repeat it. If we were genuinely concerned about people taking offence then RTE by broadcasting the speech on the news did a lot more damage than Mary O'Ruairc saying it in front of a hundred or so people.

pigeonbutler

Lots of comments to reply to here.

OP: "Is it a resignation issue?"
No.

Dampsquid: She wasn't booed. There was an audible reaction. One more of shock and concern at how the assembled media would deal with it. Especially since they hadn't gotten the story they came to report which was Mrs. O' Rourkes demise and humiliation.

Mountjoy Mugger: You're spot on.

Sand: She's not running as part of a vendetta. Learn the facts before commenting. She's running because she's Fianna Fails only realistic chance of regaining a TD in south Westmeath.

Imposter: The consituency is now very different. Deputy Cassidy has lost much of his heartland. Longford is now included. And Athlone voters won't just presume that the Senator will be safely elected like they did the last time.

Thaedyal: You haven't a clue. She wasn't renominated to the Senate!!!! That is the prerogative of the Taoiseach and no-one else.

Unfortunately I haven't got the time to read the rest of this thread to refute whatever else was said. But to sum up, it wasn't a very clever thing to say but it's not offensive. The ultra-PC media has gotten ridiculous.

Cork

It a world of political correctness - you get bland & scripted comment.

.

DublinWriter

I detest Political Correctness myself, but I grew up watching British TV in the 70's where Irish people were the butt of many jokes.

The phrase 'working like a black' comes from the era of black slavery.

Could you imagine a UK politician using the above phrase? It would be a resigning issue.

Politicians in this country are more or less fire-proof. They’d really need to go out onto Kildare St. and start shooting up people with an Uzi for it to be a possible resignation issue.

For example, Charles Kennedy admits to having a drink problem and is forced to resign. Here, a former transport minister who fronted several anti-drink driving campaigns is caught driving up the wrong side of a dual-carriageway well over the legal limit and is fined €750.

Banana republic.

DublinWriter

DublinWriter wrote:

For example, Charles Kennedy admits to having a drink problem and is forced to resign. Here, a former transport minister who fronted several anti-drink driving campaigns is caught driving up the wrong side of a dual-carriageway well over the legal limit and is fined €750.

Banana republic.

As a matter of curiosity, has Kennedy resigned as an MP?

No.

Was McDaid leader of a political party and did he refuse to resign?

No.

So the analogy fails on a few pretty basic issues. But I appreciate that people love the whole 'gosh, we're terrible aren't we and all the others are great' angle.

craigcharlie

no matter how you look at it, there's a big difference in publicly admitting to a drink problem because you feel it's time to....

and being caught drink driving down the wrong side of a dual carriageway

so i'd say this particular point does have some merit

as for earlier comments

democrates wrote:

Isn't it ironic that the people who want to see this phrase disappear have contributed to imprinting it on the public consciousness through kicking up a big row about it, and thereby increased the risk of it being used more in the future...

yeah right. given what's happened as a result of mary using it, do ya really think people are gonna start using this more? :rolleyes:

I have to say that the overriding issue for me is one that an earlier poster pointed out - the fact that she didn't have any remorse for saying it whatsoever. It just shows a total lack of cop-on... sure loads of us grew up saying stuff that was insulting to other races, just because it was what everyone around us was saying ... scabby jew, kebab, worked like a black, whatever. Language is passed on to us from everyone around us, and we get it without really knowing what it means... like the way when I was a kid it was popular to say 'oh that's gay' long before any of us knew what gay meant.

However, if yer remotely intelligent and someone pulls you up on one of those comments, you'd have to admit that what you said can be insulting to other races. Like an earlier poster said, you'd want to say "sorry, I meant the term as a compliment and hope I caused no offence"

Or is she actually so thick that she doesn't see that what she said means "They worked like black slaves"? it's pretty obvious to anyone with an ounce of cop-on, never mind the comments in this thread about chimney sweeps or boot blacks or god knows what else

I guess I'm just surprised that someone who's a politician could just not give a sh1te how their comments could be insulting to another race. Why is it acceptable to say "They worked like black slaves"? Surely everyone agrees that it's not acceptable to say "they ran like Jews from the gas chamber" (rubadub's example)? So what's the difference?


/rant

Cork

craigcharlie wrote:

I guess I'm just surprised that someone who's a politician could just not give a sh1te how their comments could be insulting to another race.


/rant

The Fine Gael leader’s offence was to tell a silly story in public which involved the use of the word ‘******.’

Enda apologised.

What more can politicians do?

DublinWriter

Cork wrote:

What more can politicians do?

Resign and take their fingers out of the grubby till.

Cork

DublinWriter wrote:

Resign and take their fingers out of the grubby till.

What WB Yeats poem did that come from Dublin 1913?

With Ethics Committees in operation - the country has moved on.

DublinWriter

Cork wrote:

With Ethics Committees in operation - the country has moved on.

Yup - where would this country be without the comm-et-aaay

Cork

The Irish are the blacks of Europe. Dubliners are the blacks of Ireland. The Northside Dubliners are the blacks of Dublin.

Did the political correctness brigade picket screenings of the Committments?


How do the political correctness brigade even sleep at night when they get worked up by phrases?

Flex

Cork wrote:

Did the political correctness brigade picket screenings of the Committments?


How do the political correctness brigade even sleep at night when they get worked up by phrases?

Yeah, and wasnt there a song called 'Old man river'? Shouldnt that be renamed 'Elderly man river' or 'Senior citizen river' or something, lest it be considered derogatory and offensive to elderly folks?

constitutionus

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

read the below on that muppet delevans blog,he seems to have it in for her family.
................................................................................................


Orla then reads out another text from a listener that makes comparisons to the way Paddies and Micks were treated in the UK and elsewhere. The listener says that she's black and she's offended by O'Rourke's remarks.

Asked for her response, O'Rourke says: "Good for her. She’s got clearly her asylum...or her papers. I wish all asylum seekers could work here."

Oops. Second mistake. In case you missed what it was--O'Rourke's first reactions when told that a black person in Ireland is offended are 1) to patronise the black person and 2) assume that the black listener is an asylum.

this to me is the MORE offensive gaff, i heard that interview myself and couldnt believe it. make ya think if O'Rourke had ever ran into phill lynnot weather or not she'd ask him "how he was adjusting to the enviroment":rolleyes: , to imply an anonomous black texter is an asylum seeker or an immigrant is insulting in the extreme. and before you politically correct types ask why this is it, an irish citizen has rights that a foreign national DOESNT chief of these is the right to decide weather or not to vote for theses muppets in the next election. me thinks this could come back to haunt mary

I have to admit my main problem with the original "works like blacks" comment was the sheer HUBRIS displayed by mary afterwards. this really is a storm in a teacup, but the level of arrogance on show by mary in either being too stupid to see the offence (EXTREMELY unlikely), or implying that WE'RE to thick to see that she knew she screwed up but if she made up any old bollocks we'd buy it when she turned on the "teacher" lecturing mode.

honestly, ive never been so annoyed by such a patronising air in my life and i hope the electorate do to her at the next election what they did at the last.
NONE of our politicians should feel this smug about their chances. its the only way to keep em honest:D

Slice

I haven't read through the entire thread and I'm not entirely sure if it's already been mentioned, however I heard from a friend familiar with the situation surrounding the Mary O'Rourke controversy that her comments may have been planned.

There are a number of reasons to believe this, I was told about them over a drink but they're not really relavent because it's specific to the situation, however if you think about it her comments would go down well with voters now that she is coming up for re-election. What's more, she didn't appear all that surprised to be questioned about it after her speech.