Why are you vegetarian?

samb

I'm sure you have already discussed this, but please do again.

I am not a vegetarian mainly because I enjoy meat so much but also because I think most animals that I eat regularly live reasonable lives. I care about animal welfare (I eat free range eggs, try not to eat chicken much etc) but have no problem eating beef or lamb for example. What would happen if we all became veggies tomorrow, all the cows, sheep, pigs etc would be killed.

Vegetarians are mainly vegetarians for three main reasons (as I see it, please correct me). and combination of the below

1) Simply find the idea of eating animals disgusting. not for any moral reason
My opinion; unfortunate for them

2) Health concerns
My opinion; Not backed up by science. We need a high protien diet for our big brains (Yes, vegetarians ussually know this and get protien from other sources)

3) Concern for animal welfare
My opinion; valid and commendable concern. I think however that my favourites lamb and beef are treated reasonably. Chickens live aweful lives (strange that some 'vegetarians' eat chicken and/or Fish...not vegetarians I hope you will agree)

4) Concern for environment and global hunger.
My opinion; most valid reason. An acre of land can feed way more people under tillage than is required for meat. :Therefore less land is required for human needs, other land can then be left to nature. In practice however there is plenty of land and Sea to feed the world

Shabadu

Will be keeping an eye on this one, so let's all be nice, and non-rambling.

I'll adress your last point here. I absolutely agree with you that there is plenty of land. The whole notion of Global Hunger is a fallacy. The world coud easily support 10 billion mouths. We have PLENTY of food for everyone on the planet at this moment, the huge sin is that we aren't getting it to the people to need it. I don't believe many vegetarians become so because of this point, however.

direbadger

samb wrote:

What would happen if we all became veggies tomorrow, all the cows, sheep, pigs etc would be killed.

This type of sentence has no meaning for me. I became a vegan because I find the idea of farming animals to be exploitative and unnecessary. It’s not the manner of farm animals deaths that disgusts me but their lives. It is a good thing that you are doing what you feel is right by avoiding eating chickens as theirs is an undeniably bad lot, but for me the things done to other animals particularly cows are pretty horrific, if not as obviously easy to sympathise with. They are pumped full of drugs and hormones, constantly made pregnant so that they have milk and then have their calves removed from them at a day old. I’m actually off work sick today and can’t think straight so I’m not going to go on. But that’s why I’m a vegan. I think farming (particularly modern farming) is a transgression against nature, and an unnecessary one at that and no amount of telling me how many thousands of years it has gone on for will change my mind (so don’t anyone bother)
We all have to do what we individually feel is right.

Peanut

lol Samb, expect a bunch of replies

Not one reason, but all of them, in that order (1,2,3,4).
I feel they are interconnected though, and a lot of the time there is no single reason.

re 1 - don't feel unfortunate at all, quite the opposite, if you don't like eating something why would you feel left out about it?

re 2 - Your opinion on this is incorrect, in my opinion.
In the past 10 years, there have been endless studies showing the benefits of vegetarian food on multiple aspects of health. Compare this to the number showing the benefits of eating meat - there's no comparison. The benefits are mostly for oily fish, and using meat as nourishment in 3rd world countries. Studies on meat consumption generally show an adverse effect on health, at least in Western societies.

From today -
Eating veg 'cuts blood pressure'

previous -
High-veg diet 'wards off cancer'
Less meat 'means a longer life'

The protein argument is a complete myth. The importance of protein in a diet is vastly overrated by the general public - most people, vegetarian or not, eat more protein than they need. This is not even going into the fact that most primates are generally vegetarian also. There may have been a point in our evolution where we benefitted from meat consumption, and for some people it still is a benefit, but to say it's broadly necessary is not true.

3 - nothing to add
4 - depends on the situation, in some cases land could be put to better use

Tar.Aldarion

Three and four(recently, in the last few years, two is an advantage because of a genetic disorder i have).
I'll just keep it rather short.

Three: it's ethics, IMO we are no different than animals, we are animals.

"If a group of beings from another planet were to land on Earth -- beings who considered themselves as superior to you as you feel yourself to be to other animals -- would you concede them the rights over you that you assume over other animals?"
Also animals are my friends, I don't eat my friends.

Four: At the current rate of the western world it would take 13-14 earths to sustain us and we are only growing. This excludes the third world. Abbatoirs also use up way to much water and fossil fuels for my liking. If people do not slow down with the use, then we are gone.
The world is capable of feed several times the human population but that is never going to happen with things as they are now and in the forseeable future. Why vegetarians that advocate this as a reason is because the more vegetarians there are, the less meat eaten, the less oil,water, fossil fuels used and because if most people became vegetarian in a period of time it would not matter that society is as it stands. There would be enough food now. A person wouldn't die every three seconds of hunger. It's the fastest way. Governments will not change. They are as apathetic as most people.
Costs money to give food mopuntains to other countries so we don't? go us!


Vegetarianism isn't about fanatical personal purity, it's about having some perspective. Move at your own pace; no one's keeping score. Vegetarianism isn't about scarcity, it's about abundance. It's not about restriction, it's about liberation. Not about what we're against but what we're for; not for some far-off time but for right now. For me going vegetarian is less about becoming something and more about being true to ourselves.
We must be the change we wish to see.

Shabadu

I would like to point out something on this thread- as Tar has already said- it's his opinion. We all have our on opinions on it, and no-one can judge which are right and wrong. I'm enjoying reading everyone's take on it, let's all remember to be tolerant, and the difference between stating something as opinion, and as fact.

Peanut, let's not call each other incorrect. There are studies on both sides. I just *really* don't want this to change into a flame war.

Tar- how do you feel changing to tillage would improve the hunger situation in the 3rd world? The food would still be piling up in Europe and America. I can't really see how it would get the food over to them

Tar.Aldarion

Shabadu wrote:

Tar- how do you feel changing to tillage would improve the hunger situation in the 3rd world? The food would still be piling up in Europe and America. I can't really see how it would get the food over to them

Hmm, it's hard to put trust in a government but I suppose people might have to or out pressure on them, if they don't, there is no change. Putting pressure on the G8 worked well and that was good.Maybe if there was enough food then it would be finacially beneficial for people to off load the food mountains rather than to store them and having them floating around on barges. Money seems to motivate people. There are compelling moral arguments for eradicating hunger. However, these seem to carry little weight in resource allocation decisions, whether within the budgets of developing countries or in aid allocations. Instead, economic and political considerations tend to dominate in decisions on the use of fiscal resources.
I suppose it would also be possible to play on their fears, The world is only slowly awakening to the links between hunger, extreme poverty, social exclusion and conflict. To the extent that improvements in global communications raise people’s expectations, the increasingly visible gaps between rich and poor are bound to fuel still greater tensions, prompting increased flows of illegal immigrants and swelling the ranks of extremist groups. It is clearly in the self-interest of those who now benefit from global prosperity to close the gap and thereby reduce threats to world stability. Getting rid of hunger is the first step in this direction. Maybe monetary incentives for countries to do it etc, who knows.

I don't really know, just throwing out ideas off the top of my head...If the problem ever arises I would be glad to try and tackle it but somebody more powerful/rich would be given the task and well, that doesn't sit well.
Oh to be wealthy, at least then you could bring about a little bit of change.

floyd333

I’ve been a veggie since I was about 5 or 6. I don’t like the taste/ look of meat (or fish). I ‘ve no problem with meat eaters. Humans are at the top of the food chain its normal to eat meat. I do wish that animals could be treated better but in the greddy times we live in that’s not always possible. Form a health point of view I’m not sure vegetarianism is the best way to go. Personally I feel I pick up colds and so on more than meat eaters. If I ever have children I would like time to have a diet that included meat and fish.

ravenhead

I've been a veggie all my life, no real reason only that I really hate the feel of meat, I've tried to taste it but just can't. I'm so bad that I can't even touch raw meat. That's the only reason ....wish it was something like the rest above but what can you do???

Peanut

Shabadu wrote:

Peanut, let's not call each other incorrect. There are studies on both sides. I just *really* don't want this to change into a flame war.

I did add "in my opinion"
I don't know, I just thought it was common knowledge that time and again there were benefits shown for eating more veg/less meat. (ok that may not be quite the same as saying 'being vegetarian is healthier' or whatever)

re: Ravenhead, I feel the same way, there's no need to try to justify it.

direbadger

Shabadu wrote:

Peanut, let's not call each other incorrect. There are studies on both sides. I just *really* don't want this to change into a flame war.

I Strongly disagree with you here. But as you are a modly being...:rolleyes:

Shabadu

direbadger wrote:

I Strongly disagree with you here. But as you are a modly being...:rolleyes:

I'm guessing that you are meaning this in a tongue in cheek way, but I don't like the look of that rolleyes smiley. :v:

samb

Peanut wrote:

lo

re 2 - Your opinion on this is incorrect, in my opinion.
In the past 10 years, there have been endless studies showing the benefits of vegetarian food on multiple aspects of health. Compare this to the number showing the benefits of eating meat - there's no comparison. The benefits are mostly for oily fish, and using meat as nourishment in 3rd world countries. Studies on meat consumption generally show an adverse effect on health, at least in Western societies.

Well I would actually agree with you on this in a way. People in Western Societies definetely do not eat enough vegetables and fruit and you are right, most eat plenty of protien. In general I think vegetarians probably eat healthier than the general public. That however does not mean that the optimum diet does not contain both meat and vegetables.

don't feel unfortunate at all, quite the opposite, if you don't like eating something why would you feel left out about it?

I know people who only eat meat and potatoes and never touch any other vegetables. In my opinion they have closed off an important and enjoyable aspect of life. I love food and certainly believe they are missing out (they will never eat any foriegn food, will never apreciate a good meal in a restuarant). Vegetarians who are willing to try different foods are certainly not missing out compared with the people i am thinking of (with thier highly impoverised) diets), but I still think you are closing yourselves off (in a minor enough way) to experiences that you could potentialy enjoy.
When I don't like something that is put in front of me I will at least have a small quantity of it. After time you may come to enjoy it, I have found this with many foods. When I was a kid I hated mushrooms but my parents forced me to eat them, and now they are one of my favourite foods (emmm with lots of Butter,Salt and Pepper, not healthy I know). Tastes with regard food I think is much more nurture than nature.

why would you feel left out
I have nothing against vegetarianism (as I have aknowledged it could have environemental benefits, you can eat well with a little effort) but is it not a bit difficult and frustrating in the world of today(for you and others). I love restuarants (although I'm to poor to go often) and would hate to only be able to select from a very limited menu. Also with friends, It is a bit annoying if you have planned to make a lovely meal and you discover someone is a vegetarian (depends on what the meal is could they have it without).

koolkat

how do people call themselves vegetarians and still eat chicken or fish? If someones says they are a vegetarian but they eat fish and then say they are vegetarian because eating animals is cruel and wrong is this not laughable? I would class fish and chicken as being the same as a pig or cow when it comes to eating them

Shabadu

koolkat wrote:

how do people call themselves vegetarians and still eat chicken or fish? If someones says they are a vegetarian but they eat fish and then say they are vegetarian because eating animals is cruel and wrong is this not laughable? I would class fish and chicken as being the same as a pig or cow when it comes to eating them

That is your opinion koolkat, it is not 'wrong' and you have no right to say so. This is not a 'lets bash non-vegetarians' forum, it is a forum for support, exchanging information, and answering questions.

Kix

I think you may be slightly misreading koolkat's post there Shabadu. She's (?) quoting people saying they are "vegetarian because eating animals is cruel and wrong" but still eat fish and asking if this is not laughable.

koolkat, a bit of punctuation wouldn't go astray.

Anyhow, I think I can put my reasons for being vegetarian fairly simply; I find the idea of mass slaughter repugnant. I find somone catching a fish they're going to cook or even keeping a pig for slaughter not that bad, but I can't abide the idea of industrial killing.

I believe that animals feel a large range of emotions. I don't want to anthropomorphize, but I'm personally convinced that many (if not all) animals in slaughter houses know they're going to be killed and suffer a lot from that knowledge. I've heard it second-hand from people who work in abittoirs that pigs, for example, seem to know what's coming and become very distressed.

This is not something that I'm comfortable with happening in my name.

Blub2k4

Shabadu wrote:

That is your opinion koolkat, it is not 'wrong' and you have no right to say so. This is not a 'lets bash non-vegetarians' forum, it is a forum for support, exchanging information, and answering questions.

It's not an opinion really Shabadu. I think it is more a misunderstanding on the part of someone who would claim to be vegetarian when they eat the flesh of an animal in their diet, last time I checked there was no reservation in the definition of vegetarianism that included eating fish and chicken excluding red meat.
I appreciate that you are trying to stop a flame war, which could easily happen here, but I wouldn't have said it is a matter of opinion, more of incorrect definition for whatever reason on the part of the person with the mosconception that they are vegetarian while eating the flesh of an animal.

Would you not be inclined to agree rather than muddying the waters by saying Koolkat doesn't have the right to present a dictionary definition, while you may be a mod I dont believe that power extends to control over the English language, unless Ecksor upped your system privileges

Shabadu

@Kik- thanks for pointing that out- the lack of quotation marks and wierd syntax made me think that was what koolkat was saying.

In reference to animals in slaughterhouses- While they try to keep the animals calm so they don't lose all the glycogen in their muscles, invariably some panic, and many are aware of what is happening. In an ideal world, we'd be going back to ethically reared meat, with beasts slaughtered calmly and as needed in someone's back yard, as it still happens in Portugal. I know we can't all go back to pastoral living, but the traditional methods of rearing and slaughtering animals are preferable imo.

@Blub- Try to get your facts straight if you want to patronise me. I was saying that koolkat had no right to call the practise of eating meat 'wrong and cruel'. I wasn't talking about pescatarians calling themselves vegetarians AT ALL.

Blub2k4

Shabadu wrote:

@Blub- Try to get your facts straight if you want to patronise me. I was saying that koolkat had no right to call the practise of eating meat 'wrong and cruel'. I wasn't talking about pescatarians calling themselves vegetarians AT ALL.

Have a read of the posts again, maybe you will see where my misunderstanding came from.
So two of us can misunderstand because you misunderstood something and you tell me to get facts straight?


I'll refrain from commenting on your posts again.

starn

My Mother can't cook

Shabadu

Blub2k4 wrote:

Have a read of the posts again, maybe you will see where my misunderstanding came from.
So two of us can misunderstand because you misunderstood something and you tell me to get facts straight?


I'll refrain from commenting on your posts again.

Hey- I wasn't the one who started with an attitude.

Cake Fiend

Peanut wrote:

Studies on meat consumption generally show an adverse effect on health, at least in Western societies.

I'd imagine this is due to excessive meat consumption rather than meat consumption alone. If you take a look at a non-vegetarian Japanese meal for example, there is a healthy balance between vegetables, fish and beef/chicken/pork. A western meal, on the other hand, tends to have the emphasis on the meat.

Tar.Aldarion

Shabadu wrote:

In reference to animals in slaughterhouses- While they try to keep the animals calm so they don't lose all the glycogen in their muscles, invariably some panic

It's pretty hard to keep a cow calm when you have to hit it with a sledge hammer, they only get one shot because of the amount they have to do it too, to try and knock it out but most times fail. Sigh, slaughter houses get me angry to say the least...

Shabadu

Er, all beasts in Ireland are electrocuted now Tar. EU directive. They're stunned and knocked unconcious.

Tar.Aldarion

Sorry, talking bout america, should have said that! Irish ones are a damn sight better than their counterparts but as shown in videos, a lot turn down the voltage so as to save money and so a lot are not stunned at all.
But hey if people just ate meat under from the EU directive then that's at least a little positive step.
It's still much better than america...never want to see that again!
Also in america there are no laws against being cruel to chickens etc (only one for cows i believe) afaik and welfare officers are not allowed inside the slaughter houses unless they permit it.

shroomfox

I did it for the laugh!

But I've always disliked the "if everybody became vegetarian then all the cows would die anyway" line. ALL the cows wouldn't die, especially if they were taken care of by the suddenly touchy-feely-animal lovers. They could die off naturally, living to a ripe old age (but kept from breeding of course!) and then the remaining bovine representatives to the planet (who were at it like large frisky rabbits) could be allowed to peacefully propagate their species naturally in the grassy meadows of the newly founded Cowland. Ah!

I'm serious, by the way. And I wouldn't advocate choosing the cows that would further the species, because I'm no Eugenicist, and I don't want the lable of Adolf Heifler or some other awful pun. Some of kind of Cow Lottery or Bing-moo would do.

The other problem that people say about that line is that the slaveowners used the same argument when the abolition of slavery was coming about. But that's neither here nor there, and I think it's a bit daft really.

Kix

shroomfox wrote:

Some of kind of Cow Lottery or Bing-moo would do.

Right, you've made me laugh enough now that I want to search out your other four posts to date and read them

That's a fallacious argument, in my opinion. It is based on two premises I consider absurd:

1. That it's any way likely that the whole world could possibly go vegetarian all at once and in a very short space of time, and
2. That the newly formed vegetarians of earth would then want to kill all the surplus animals off because we had no more use for them.

I'm off to ponder the notion of "The Bullocks from Brazil"...

shroomfox

Sorry mate - that was my first real effort.

Watch this space though...

Also: I agree.

Peanut

Sico wrote:

I'd imagine this is due to excessive meat consumption rather than meat consumption alone. If you take a look at a non-vegetarian Japanese meal for example, there is a healthy balance between vegetables, fish and beef/chicken/pork. A western meal, on the other hand, tends to have the emphasis on the meat.

Yes I think you're quite right. What's considered 'normal' here should be considered excessive. Complete vegetarianism probably isn't the 'healthiest' if you can generalise that much, but it's in the right direction IMHO. But people have different metabolisms etc., so to try to find the 'best' combination is a bit pointless. We can just say 'generally speaking'..

Apart from all that, there are other issues like CJD, bird flu etc., due to animals sharing more of our biology than plants. Of course you can get poisoning from non-meat foodstuffs, but usually not infectious disease.
(note: yes cjd is non-infectious person to person, and bird flu is apparently not present in cooked meat, however it illustrates the capability of serious diseases to be transferred from animals to humans.)

re: samb & missing out on food -
I don't think this is that big an issue. A lot of vegetarians had already eaten meat and don't like it anymore. You could generalise the argument to say that people here are missing out on other ethnic diets like eating dog, insects etc., and they should be more open minded. Maybe they should, but it's a bit like saying everyone should be interested in football, or cricket, or whatever else...

As regards going out for food, yes of course it can be frustrating, but that's just the particular society we live in. If you were living in southern India or somewhere for example it may not be an issue at all. There's no reason to change just to conform to what the majority do.

Shabadu

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

a lot turn down the voltage so as to save money and so a lot are not stunned at all.

:eek: That is bloody horrible! I agree with what you're saying about the slaughterhouses in America- did a few case studies on them in college, and having read fast food nation, I'm absolutely horrified by how they treat animals. The way they intensively rear animals and keep them in appaling conditions is completely reprehensible. And for what? Poor quality cheap meat that people don't even need.

Sico raised an excellent point- people should not be eating meat every day imo. My aim is to eat some properly reared free-range meat 3 times a week maximum, line caught oily fish two days, and just veggies and pulses for the last two.

samb

Shabadu wrote:

:and having read fast food nation, I'm absolutely horrified by how they treat animals. The way they intensively rear animals and keep them in appaling conditions is completely reprehensible. And for what? Poor quality cheap meat that people don't even need.
.

You don't know what sh.te is in those american beef burgers.........Oh sorry actually we do know.......it's cow sh.te.

samb

Can't I use that s word, when I mean it. feces wouldn't work.

direbadger

samb wrote:

Can't I use that s word, when I mean it. feces wouldn't work.

No, it's a cuss-filter. It won't even allow you to talk about ****ake mushrooms!
Use Irish slang curse words, it doesn't know them...;)

Cake Fiend

There are (supposed to be) two 'i's in shiitake

rsynnott

Shabadu wrote:

:eek: That is bloody horrible! I agree with what you're saying about the slaughterhouses in America- did a few case studies on them in college, and having read fast food nation, I'm absolutely horrified by how they treat animals. The way they intensively rear animals and keep them in appaling conditions is completely reprehensible. And for what? Poor quality cheap meat that people don't even need.
.

The way they treat the workers is also not the best (see http://www.hrw.org if you're interested). The whole industry is a great example of the dangers of excessively liberal regulation.