[Article] Draft rail strategy suggests need for Luas lines in regional cities

Maskhadov

Draft rail strategy suggests need for Luas lines in regional cities
Frank McDonald, Environment Editor
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2006/0110/1349911872HM7CORKLUAS.html

Cork, Limerick and Galway should get their own versions of Luas, according to a draft light rail investment strategy prepared by the Railway Procurement Agency.

The document, released under the Freedom of Information Act, says it is now increasingly recognised that traffic congestion is not a phenomenon unique to Dublin, but an "everyday reality in all of Ireland's cities and many of its large towns".

Saying congestion "can only be addressed through the delivery of high quality public transport", the agency says it will "identify the opportunities to develop light rail in the regional cities of Cork, Galway and Limerick where that need exists in the period to 2008".

According to its draft strategy, "this may involve the delivery of strategic light rail studies for each of these cities" to complement existing and proposed transportation strategies, land use proposals and local area plans drawn up by the relevant local authorities.

The document points out that trams are operating successfully in several small- to medium-sized cities in Europe such as Grenoble (population 160,000), Orleans (120,000), St Etienne (185,000), Baden-Baden (55,000), Bonn (310,000) and Utrecht (270,000).

The agency's draft strategy envisages that light rail projects could be developed for Cork, Limerick and Galway through a mixture of Exchequer funding and development levy, similar to the way the planned extension of Luas from Sandyford to Cherrywood is being funded.

While conceding that light rail outside Dublin was not in the Government's Transport 21 programme, a spokesman for the Rail Procurement Agency said yesterday: "If the local authorities were to contact us in the morning about it, we would be happy to talk to them about its feasibility."

However, a spokesman for the Department of Transport said that although installing light rail systems in the regional cities was "not a priority project" under Transport 21, "that's not to rule it out for the future. But obviously a lot more work would need to be done".

Meanwhile, a rail transport researcher has drawn up a number of route options for a low-cost Luas type system for Galway city and its surrounds.

According to Brian Guckian's Luas local lines national light rail development framework, the new routes could be built for as little as €1.5 million per kilometre.

Road schemes can cost more than €10 million per kilometre.

Mr Guckian's proposal says several route options are being looked at, including an initial two-way network running from Knocknacarra and Rahoon to Oranmore.

The second proposed line would run from Eyre Square to Newcastle and on to Moycullen, and there would be an interchange between the two lines just north of the university.

The Luas local lines initiative aims to bring low-cost light rail to Irish towns and cities, making use of the existing Iarnród Éireann transport system.

As well as carrying passengers, the proposed system could also be used for freight, with depots located outside towns for freight to be removed.

Unlike the Luas, the service could be laid on a ballast at the side of the road rather than embedding tracks in roads. Because of its flexibility it can follow contours and sharp curves when crossing through land.

Mr Guckian said extensions could take in Headford and Salthill, and the final shape of any system would be a matter for public consultation.



© The Irish Times

I think Cork should defintely get it and it should to to the same spec as the Dublin LUAS !

dead air

I can imagine a cross city Luas type line would be great for Cork. Perhaps a North/South Line like Blackpool > Cork city centre > Douglas > Mahon Point. Or maybe a southern semi-circular route from Ballincollig > University College Hosp > UCC > City Centre > Douglas > Mahon Point.

I don't live in Cork so I don't know how well they're serviced by suburban trains but I think as Ireland's second city it deserves a modern, frequent and speedy public transport service. They could could call it the the CART.

Nuttzz

I would like to see this in the regions too, however could it cope with the hills in cork??

invincibleirish

i think P11 had a thread on its old website about light rail in Cork, i think it basically envisaged Ballincollig-CIT-Bishopstown-Wilton/CUH-UCC-City centre/Bus station-Turners Cross-Douglas-Mahon-Blackpool for the southside with maybe a spur for the northside at city centre for Blackpool-Mayfield-Knocka-Glanmire?(very hilly as mentioned though)

if you look at European cities mentioned above which have the same population as Cork so it makes sense. Cork City Council have a section about it in their development plan but nothing more definite then that i believe.i think CCC have a pretty progressive atitude on these things so who knows,maybe they can be do what was mentioned above RE: development levies.

Sponge Bob

dead air wrote:

I don't live in Cork so I don't know how well they're serviced by suburban trains but I think as Ireland's second city it deserves a modern, frequent and speedy public transport service. They could could call it the the CART.

Galway is, as always, more deserving and is further ahead in the planning as the Irish Times correctly noted so forget the mountainous Cork till thats done !

It should be called the "GREAT" as in 'Galway Regional Enhanced Access Tramway' . Limerick could have the STAB instead , as in 'Speedy Trams and Buses'

Aidan1

Cork City Council (and Corpo before that) have made suggestions, references and outright pleas to the relevant government Dept for some form of light rail for Cork since (at least) the late 1980s. It was discussed also in the CASP, but the analysis came down on the side of guided buses instead. Apparently the passenger volumes were not enough to justify it for Cork for the foreseeable future. Within CCC, there have been two main routes suggested as runners, one running from the Railway station through the centre of town, past UCC, to CIT (in Bishopstown) and possibly on to Ballincollig. The other would run out to Douglas and back, possibly using either the Kinsale Road or the alignment of the Monkstown light railway.

There has never been a realistic chance of this happening in the short term. The Midleton project, for example, has taken 5 years to go from getting consent to (hopefully) going to tender to build. And thats a lot more practical than this.

This story is a kite flown by the RPA, and gathered up by journalists for a slow news day. Like today.

mike65

Good to see "Whereford?" is completely ignored! Its a load of balls, I know Cork well enough to know there are only a couple of locations even remotely possibly for a luas type system. Its too bloody hilly. Same would apply to Waterford except out the Cork road.

Mike.

gjim

Galway is, as always, more deserving and is further ahead in the planning as the Irish Times correctly noted so forget the mountainous Cork till thats done !

Galway must be the worst planned town in Ireland. At this stage the "city" is 90% low density isolated suburban housing and roundabouts. A proper bus service would be barely viable in Galway never mind a light rail system.

It makes Cork look like a model European city in comparison. Even Limerick is far better.

Winters

Neither Galway nor Limerick need LRT. This arguement is only coming up because of poor planning and poor existing public transport.

Commuter services in both cities, regionalised public transport authorities, proper land use planning, integrated transport hubs, integrated ticketing, commonsense, foresight, cooperation, tendered bus operations etc. would serve both cities very well into the 21st century. Hell we cant even get Dublin right..

Cork would be suited to one or two LRT lines. Ballincollig, Airport, Mahon Point etc, all connecting with a revamped Kent Station.

Maskhadov

Cork used to have tram lines in the past so obviously they can run trams in Cork in the future...

Tramway Heritage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork
There are no tram services operating in Cork although the Cork Area Strategic Development Plan suggests it as one among a number of solutions for dealing with traffic congestion in Cork. Historically, there have been two tram networks in operation in Cork.

A proposal to develop a horse-drawn tram was made by an American, George Francis Train, in the 1860s. His plan was to link the city's railway termini with horse-drawn trams. These ideas were put into practice in 1872 by the Cork Tramway Company. However, the company ceased trading in 1875 after Cork Corporation refused permission to extend the line.

In December 1898, an electric tram system began operating in the city. The routes were: Blackpool-Douglas, Summerhill-Sunday's Well and Tivoli-Blackrock. The gauge of the tramway was two feet, eleven and a half inches. This was designed to be the same gauge as the Muskerry Railway, although the two never shared traffic.

Increased usage of cars and buses in the 1920s led to a reduction in the numbers using the trams. The final day of operation of the trams was supposed to be March 31, 1931. However, after a few weeks of closure, it was realised that the Irish Omnibus Company did not have enough capacity to cope with demand. The trams started running again in April, 1931. This was only a temporary measure though and the final tram in Cork ran on September 30, 1931.

jank

A ballincollig LTR to city centre and Carrigaline to city centre LTR would be the most practical I think. These would cover a large are of the population and get those car lovers off the road.

Also some type of commuter rail from Fermoy and Mallow(THink they are doing something regards this here) would be welcome too.

These projects always take forever and unless we get a new Jack Lynch cant see it happening for a while myself.

Victor

I can't see a huge amount of this happening unless it is strictly tied to other development.

jank wrote:

A ballincollig LTR to city centre and Carrigaline to city centre LTR would be the most practical I think.

Carrigaline is too far away and is better served by bus. It would probably be cheaper and more practical to build a ridge from Rushbrork to Monkstown and operate that way. Remember you would need to redo the Passage West tunnel.

Cork: Kent Station could be moved to Angelsea Street and operate terminating only platforms, but through services (using double-ended railcars).

Move the bus station across the river to that site.

Build Cluas From Rochestown along the old Crosshaven line to Mahon, Blackrock, the re-developed south docks, across on a new bridge to the train station, through the city centre (South Mall?) along the Mardyke, through Wilton to CIT. The problem with going to Ballincollig is the town is quite linear, so a single stop on the near end of the town is more meaningful, unless one really wants to put major development between the old and new N22s.

A north-south route could be done from Blackpool through the city centre out, Langford Row, Summerhill South and follow the old Macroom line from Capwell (bus garage) to the Park & Ride at Black Ash. Getting to the airport is difficult as you rise 150m in 2000m while trying to cling to the side of a valley. You could of course build a tunnel under the airport to change part of the rise from tram to escalator.

Note Cork used to have 6 terminating train stations to Dublin's 5.

Maps
http://www.corkcity.ie/maps/maps/tile_introa.html
http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/corkimages/maps.shtml
http://planenquiry.corkcity.ie/ (needs Viewer)

corktina

Maskhadov wrote:

Cork used to have tram lines in the past so obviously they can run trams in Cork in the future...

the old trams fulfilled a different function to modern systems.Buses largely fulfill that role today. A modern "Cluas or CART (:D )" would be an outer suburban type service. I dont think there is enough potential traffic there.

Digressing (and being totally impractical) i have always thought that a connection along the quays from Kent to (say) Patricks bridge by a tram would be a great idea.....maybe even utilising the old lifting bridges to run a circular round the city centre and back to Kent.

Victor

corktina wrote:

Cluas or CART

We can have both:
Cluas - city tram services
CART - existing rail services with Middleton added.

Sponge Bob

Victor wrote:

We can have both:
Cluas - city tram services
CART - existing rail services with Middleton added.

after Galway gets the "GREAT" ...well ....really ..... after the contract is signed

stag39

Yep can just see it... the luas running its merry way down shop street in galway....maybe eyre square can be the main terminal... it would clean the place up!!!;)

FergusF

stag39 wrote:

Yep can just see it... the luas running its merry way down shop street in galway....maybe eyre square can be the main terminal... it would clean the place up!!!;)

Funny, there was a photomontage in one of the national papers yesterday showing how the luas might look in Cork, Limerick and Galway - the Galway version depicted a tram running down Shop St. - but for anyone familiar with Galway it was quite a joke as there is barely room to push a pram down there on a busy Sat afternoon!

In fairness, the article did mention that the first line was planned for Knocknacarra to Oranmore. This would take in Ballybrit and Parkmore and should remove a good bit of the traffic that clog the East>West routes every evening. Would also take a good bit of the traffic from the Oranmore side heading into town, the traffic is pretty bad here most mornings. They mentioned a second line from Eyre Square to the Headford Rd ? I believe.

No mention of timelines, but judging from the Eyre Sq debacle I would not hold my breath waiting for a Galway tram anytime soon...

corktina

actually as far as Cork is concerned, it might make sense to turn over the Cobh and Middleton branches to Light rail and extend them , LUAS-like along the quays to the City Centre.............via the old Bandon Bridge maybe and along to Merchants Quay via Bus Aras......?

GerardKeating

FergusF wrote:

Funny, there was a photomontage in one of the national papers yesterday showing how the luas might look in Cork, Limerick and Galway - the Galway version depicted a tram running down Shop St. - but for anyone familiar with Galway it was quite a joke as there is barely room to push a pram down there on a busy Sat afternoon!

Actuallty, there used to a tram down shop street, there was a tram in the last century from Eyre Square to Salthill, i think it was horse drawn.

FergusF

GerardKeating wrote:

Actuallty, there used to a tram down shop street, there was a tram in the last century from Eyre Square to Salthill, i think it was horse drawn.

Now that does ring a bell, I seem to remember seeing some old photos of that tram published in the Galway Advertiser.

Transport21 Fan

Winters wrote:

Neither Galway nor Limerick need LRT. This arguement is only coming up because of poor planning and poor existing public transport.

Commuter services in both cities, regionalised public transport authorities, proper land use planning, integrated transport hubs, integrated ticketing, commonsense, foresight, cooperation, tendered bus operations etc. would serve both cities very well into the 21st century. Hell we cant even get Dublin right..

Cork would be suited to one or two LRT lines. Ballincollig, Airport, Mahon Point etc, all connecting with a revamped Kent Station.

I agree. Mahon Point especially...it is the Sandyford of Cork.

stag39

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I agree. Mahon Point especially...it is the Sandyford of Cork.

yes it would also service the late night showing's in the omniplex for some disgruntled boarder'swho liked going to the late shows in the gate

GerardKeating

Victor wrote:

Note Cork used to have 6 terminating train stations to Dublin's 5.

Dublin had six terminating passengeer stations, not sure if they were all at the same time now.

Heuston (Kingsbridge)
Harcourt St.
BroadStone
North Wall

and before the loopline bridge was built

Connolly (Amiens St)
Pearse (Westland Row)

Transport21 Fan

7 if you include Terenure for the Dublin and Blessington. There was a full station there with railway cotteges and freight yards, the lot.

MG

Victor wrote:

Cork: Kent Station could be moved to Angelsea Street and operate terminating only platforms, but through services (using double-ended railcars).

Move the bus station across the river to that site.

But to where? The best site,the only site, the old An Post sorting office (on Eglington St) was sort to a developer for a CART full of cash for apartments.

Victor

GerardKeating wrote:

North Wall/QUOTE]Did it have pasenger services?

Transport21 Fan wrote:

7 if you include Terenure for the Dublin and Blessington. There was a full station there with railway cotteges and freight yards, the lot.

Hardly a Dublin station, anyway, wasn't it a tramway, not a railway.

MarkoP11

Victor wrote:

GerardKeating wrote:

North Wall

Did it have pasenger services?

Its the low red brick building on the corner of the Spencer Dock site known as The Iarnród Éireann Freight Offices formerly the London and North Western Railway Company North Wall Station and yes it had scheduled services. May possibly be reopened as a ticket office for Spencer Dock (underground station)

Many people forget quite quickly forget Cork had 3 mainline rail stations (yes 3), the West Cork railway is the Cork version of the Harcourt street line in Dublin in some ways didn't have much promise 50 years ago but now it could be a excellent starting point now if the planning was right

Can't see trams in Galway just won't work, the rail network in both Limerick and Galway has yet to be even pushed to a tenth of what it could shift, remember Luas cames after DART and was supposed to be DART in the first place.

Maskhadov

hi Marko11. Is there any maps drawings etc available of potential tram lines through Limerick and Cork ? I agree heavy rail should be pushed through first.

Winters

http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/corkimages/maps_1893.shtml

Victor

Cork was something like this. The navy I've added is where I suggest the station be moved to.

corktina

Victor wrote:

Cork was something like this.

i like that map...it shows the original Youghall line terminus which is interesting....is this line still viewable or has it been built over i wonder.

Always wondered why the main Dublin line could not have been built out via Blackpool rather than in a tunnel...............

Victor

corktina wrote:

i like that map...it shows the original Youghall line terminus which is interesting....is this line still viewable or has it been built over i wonder.

The route is still there, just above the Lower Glanmire Road.

Always wondered why the main Dublin line could not have been built out via Blackpool rather than in a tunnel...............

I can only assume it was because that part of the city was already built up.

Maskhadov

All that blue lines look confusing.

1huge1

Sponge Bob wrote:

Galway is, as always, more deserving and is further ahead in the planning as the Irish Times correctly noted so forget the mountainous Cork till thats done !

It should be called the "GREAT" as in 'Galway Regional Enhanced Access Tramway' . Limerick could have the STAB instead , as in 'Speedy Trams and Buses'

hilarious... note sarcasm

Victor

corktina wrote:

i like that map...it shows the original Youghall line terminus which is interesting....is this line still viewable or has it been built over i wonder.

Looking at the photos from Mapflow, the line should still be viewable. Above the Tunnel Bridge on Lower Glanmire Road there is a footbridge, further ralong there are other bridges. I imagine some view is possible.

Victor

More.

Airmail

'Luas' network plan for Galway
Plans for a Luas-type network for Galway have been finalised and are to be forwarded to the city council and Department of Transport, writes Michelle McDonagh.
The proposed 28km (17.4mile) Corrib Light Rail would link Knockacarra to Oranmore and Eyre Square to Moycullen.

Irish Times March 15th 2006

Transport21 Fan

Airmail wrote:

'(17.4mile) Corrib Light Rail would link Knockacarra to Oranmore and Eyre Square to Moycullen.

Irish Times March 15th 2006

Oranmore is on the mainline rail network and Galway CoCo engineers are already working with IE on a Park and Ride station at the site.

Unless the RPA designs a light rail for Galway then nothing else should be considered. Only the RPA have the technical know how to develop modern urban rail solutions for Irish cities. Irish Rail engineers do not even have this ability.