Greystones Marina

Ru

I'm usually an optimist but i think that the development will go ahead anyway despite the majority obviously opposed. There is a lot of money involved and we all know how that effects a politicians way of thinking, the attitude “it’s for there own good”, “they’ll thank us later”, “we know best” all come to mind.

Valmont

We could save the beach(which is just big stones that are hard to walk on), but then we will have the contents of the landfill underneath Darcys field flying around. It's alreadys spilling out at places, I found an old hoover last week. The harbour will fill up with sand and fall into the sea if it isn't rebuilt.

I enjoy walking the North beach and the Cliff walk. And no matter how grand the scale of development, the view of Bray head from the North beach(at the bridge) won't be ruined. Either will the beautiful cliff walk.

Why is everyones so afraid of this harbour? It seems a large proportion of people against the development don't even live in Greystones. I was in the blood clinic last week and after the nurse talked to me for fifteen minutes about how horrible the new project was, I asked her whereabouts she lived in Greystones, she said 'oh no, I live in Malahide'. ???

I am 100% behind the development. Does anyone share this view?
I have lived in Greystones for Eighteen years in case anyone wants to know.

Angel

I've tried to stay out of this argument, simply because I don't live in Greystones (yet), but I was at the North beach on Saturday afternoon. Two friends of mine were fishing off the pier. It was a beautiful day, really calm and warm, and I took lots of photos. I have to say I think it would be a shame to build on the beach. I'm not against the new marina as a concept, but I definitely don't think it would add anything, from an aesthetic point of view, to the area. Part of the appeal of the town is its quaintness. I think a modern marina would actually take away from that rustic charm.

Saying that, there doesn't seem to be much going on down that end of town, apart from that dodgy looking bar on the sea-front. That big derelict hotel is awful, and it really is only a matter of time before we see a shed-load more apartments built there, so maybe the marina might be the start of a whole campaign of modernisation on the North beach? Who knows?

sportbilly

Valmont, I'm with you 100%.

Greystones is a big town, the same size as Sligo but unfortunately without half the facilities that I'm sure Sligo has. The harbour development will provide a whole new raft of amenities and will hopefully provide impetus for further development of amenities around the town.

Erosion is a massive issue around the north beach and this project will deal with that issue for at least 80 years if I remember correctly what the engineer said at the Presbyterian hall and at no expense to the local tax payer.

Also everyone is going on about how the construction companies will profit from the project, but that's what business is all about...making money.

Nobody will build it unless there is a profit to be made. Plus this is a risky project for the construction company so the potential profit has to be quite substantial. If there are any unforeseen problems it will come out of their profit.

Also the new park and ampitheatre looks great. I think the ampitheatre could have a massive part to play in the raising of the profile of the summer arts festival too.

ivan087

i totally support this new development. greystones is just one big housing estate. the harbour is falling into the sea. the cliff walk and the actual harbour is wasted. the residents of greystones deserve something better. those who oppose this have no better (realistic) proposals. the only way to improve the harbour is to sell it out - once there are provisions for the public in the new development, which there is.
i would be usually opposed to selling beaches and harbours to private firms. but what is the alternative? i think the no-sayers, who mean good, should jump on board and make sure it will be for the best for everyone.
one thing that we must protect is the cliff walk - there has been talk of a new road along the cliff. i dont know how true this is, but hopefully its just talk and nothing more.

Bertie

ivan087 wrote:

i totally support this new development. greystones is just one big housing estate. the harbour is falling into the sea. the cliff walk and the actual harbour is wasted. the residents of greystones deserve something better. those who oppose this have no better (realistic) proposals. the only way to improve the harbour is to sell it out - once there are provisions for the public in the new development, which there is.
i would be usually opposed to selling beaches and harbours to private firms. but what is the alternative? i think the no-sayers, who mean good, should jump on board and make sure it will be for the best for everyone.
one thing that we must protect is the cliff walk - there has been talk of a new road along the cliff. i dont know how true this is, but hopefully its just talk and nothing more.

From what I'Ve experienced its the wasps in greystones doing all the objecting -afraid of getting their cars dirty one woman actually complained the dust from charlesland was dirtying her windows a mile and a half away that was the total argument she presented against it.It then transpired that she had an investment property there.There is one good point though and thats construction traffic accessing the site the delgany road is in bits and if they use the charlesland to n11 route when it opens in the summer it'll cause mayhem through the main street .If it approaches from windgates via the southern cross in bray more mayhem strict controls will have to be made on construction traffic.
If facilities arent put in place in Greystones soon, after the population explosion its seen, then there will be a lot more to complain about( social problems) in the next few years than the harbour development.And Greystones is only going to get bigger in the next four or five years.:eek:

Joliegood

What about consideration for the local residents around the harbour. Why should they have to endure the noise and hassle that will come with this development ?. The scale of this is way over the top.

loyatemu

the plan for the marina\harbour itself is fine, the existing harbour has a ramshackle charm but it is falling apart and needs to be replaced. What people are objecting to is the huge residential and commercial development attached to the plan.

It's too much, will cause major disruption both during construction and long term due to traffic. Comparisons with Charlesland are bogus - Charlesland is built on a greenfield site on the edge of the town and has provided much needed new (and relatively affordable) housing in a town that was deperately short of it. The harbour appartment will be horrendously expensive in comparison.

It is not true to say the objectors are all from outside the town - this is a rumour being spread by some supporters of the development. I'm from Greystones and most of the people I know in the town are opposed to this.

I understand why the clubs and other users of the harbour support the development - they've been strung along by the council for 20 years and are desperate for something to happen, but at the same time people have a right to object.

If it is built in the end, then so be it, it's not the end of the world. But I still think its a bad plan and should be opposed while we have the chance.

Fiachra2

Bertie wrote:

From what I'Ve experienced its the wasps in greystones doing all the objecting

If its only the wasps then they must have a very big nest. The final tally of submissions to the Bord was 6,000+

With regard to alternatives they do exist. Its a real pity that interested contributors to this debate have been successfully blackmailed by Wicklow County Council into believing that the harbour cannot be restored in a manner acceptable to the whole community.

Lastly it should be noted that not all harbour useres support the development. Quite a few of the members of the GPDA are also in the sailing club. I understand the club itself has objected to the development

Bertie

6000+fiachra ??????????
No1W.C.C.say they have 4563 and rumour was going around it was 10000. still 4563 out of 18000 or even 6000 was hardly an overwhelming majority.
No 2 when I was petitioned /polled I refused to sign as the questioning was unbalanced/ biased so it wasn'texactly a fair poll.Believe me I know as polling and market research was my profession for many years.

No3 I believe that Greystones does need a lot more facilities and fast and this development will provide that. Look at the main street for gods sake sunken ramps on the road look at the approach roads- bar windgates they are all in ****e.The old harbour speaks for itself.

No4 WCC is the most incompetent in Ireland and ranked at the bottom of a survey of local authorities in the Eu.Depending on them to do any thing and youd be waiting for the nxt 50 years.I'm hard pressed to name one single major infrastructural project they have provided in the last few years themselves.
Only for the N.R.A. and D.O.E. we wouldnt have the upgrade of the N11. Wicklow is the only county not to have a decent road running east west (national primary route)to get to the midlands or west or south. The best route is back in to Dublin and out again.
If you ask me WCC are at present only interested in C.P.O.ing land for social housing which they have failed to provide on a record scale then they turn around and sell this on a massive profit to developers.
Mention W.C.C. to any T.D. or minister and he'll/she'll groan.They have allowed dumping to happen on a mass scale proximity to Dublin is an excuse well worn out we dont see this in Meath or Kildare. They get the greystones to n11 link road built for free then when a dump is found that they knew nothing about -myarse- the road goes to nowhere.
Incompetency of the highest order.The only way greystones is going to get facilities is through development.New pool and sports facilities in charlesland delivered 3 years after the first sod turned there (and the road to nowhere) we're still waiting for the public pool through the council what after 10 years or is it 20.
How can you argue with that do you believe that Greystones needs facilities or not.I overheard a conversation amongst a group of people upstairs in the Monk last Saturday night about the proposed lidl in Blacklion bringing down the tone of Greystones--- like what are we at here

Joliegood

More the reason then to oppose the council if they feel they can just pawn off their problems against the publics wishes.

Fiachra2

The objections were sent to an bord Pleanala not WCC. If you check with the Bord I think they will confirm the 6K figure



I dont know a lot about market research but I do know a bit about polling public opinion and I can assure you that 6K is absolutly phenomenal. When Charlesland was being built Derek Mitchell and George Jones organised a campaign to oppose the scale of teh development. Despite strong feelings in the area there were I think 6 objections lodged with the bord

You may have misunderstood the purpose of the canvass. You were not being asked to give an opinion but were in fact being asked to sign an objection. Hence the wording of the points in the letter appeared "loaded"

With regard to numbers. The population of Greystones is proabably about 13K of which maybe 8K are adults. As you will know from market research it is very difficult to canvass more than about 50-75% of a population of this size. This leaves two conclusions.
1 A lot of objections were from outside the town and
2 The vast majority of the people who were contacted signed the objection

I would agree with your criticisms of WCC but I would not acceprt that this is any justification for selling off the countryside. Certainly not for facilities which benefit a small minority. Quite the opposite in fact.

loyatemu

Fiachra is right here - 6000 objections from a town the size of Greystones is phenomenal. Once you discount children and people who are uncontactable or don't care then it almost certainly represents a majority.

As for the canvassing being biased - of course it was, they were trying to persuade people to take their side and they succeeded in this. The pro-development literature is also biased - the whole point of campaigning is to get your point of view across.

Marcais

loyatemu wrote:

Fiachra is right here - 6000 objections from a town the size of Greystones is phenomenal. Once you discount children and people who are uncontactable or don't care then it almost certainly represents a majority.

As for the canvassing being biased - of course it was, they were trying to persuade people to take their side and they succeeded in this. The pro-development literature is also biased - the whole point of campaigning is to get your point of view across.

Brief, to the point, and sensible. But I'm sure you will get some Muppet to completely disagree

ps. Why has this been posted as a new topic and not under the Greystones Marina topic?

Eoin

marcais wrote:

ps. Why has this been posted as a new topic and not under the Greystones Marina topic?

Good point, moving this to the Marina thread.

Fiachra2

Yeah come on Eoin get your act together!

How can Marcias and I properly spread misleading information about the marina if you dont put it in the right place?!

Eoin

Fiachra2 wrote:

Yeah come on Eoin get your act together!

How can Marcias and I properly spread misleading information about the marina if you dont put it in the right place?!

Or how about we get a "Greystones Marina" forum set up and have handbags at dawn there!

sportbilly

What's the latest with the Marina?

matt-dublin

A proposed €300 million development of Greystones harbour has generated much opposition both locally and further afield. 5,500 submissions were received by An Bord Pleanala at the deadline on 15th February.

The plan for the harbour area is proposed by Wicklow County Council and a private sector partner, Sispar. In return for development works in the area, the private consortium plans to build 375 apartments. The apartment blocks and other development blocks will rise to over 4 stories and dominate the landscape.

Wicklow County Council has decided to go ahead with the plan despite the huge amount of opposition of local people. The Irish Times reported a Wicklow County Council spokesperson saying that many of the 5,500 submissions had come from outside Greystones and a substantial number were copies of a similar standard letter. “It is not about who objected but about the issues raised in the submissions,” the spokesman said.

Could this be interpreted to mean that the volume of submissions is not to be taken into consideration? If enough citizens of Greystones or the rest of the county are concerned about the privatisation of public lands and views, this should be taken into account in oral hearings due to start in March.

In all probability, the development will go ahead and the real winners will be the developers and their bank balances

Marcais

The decision is expected tomorrow.



The marina will not be going ahead as currently proposed.

Fiachra2

I had a converstion yesterday with one of the professionals we employed for our submission. Like all the others we retained, he does almost all his work for large developers. He expressed the opinion that there is a feeling out there amongst construstion industry professionals that this is an complete abuse of power by a local authority to faciliatate a commercial development. So matt you are right. As far as WCC are concerned it doesnt matter how many people object, on what grounds they object or where they are from. The council knows whats good for us and they will try and ram it down our throats anyway.

However they are not there yet and anyway there is always the courts.

Fiachra2

An Bord Pleanala have this morning confirmed that the decision will be deferred for at least two months. Apparently they don't share the view of the County Manager that this is a visionary project, vital to the future of Greystones, which should proceed without further consideration.

matt-dublin

Well as far as i know the WCC see the objections in a funny way.
As there were a lot of standardised letters sent in, they will be all counted as 1 objection in the eyes of the WCC as they are not individual.

I would guess the majority of the development will go ahead eventually.
It was originally thrown out by the wcc in 1997 but they changed their minds in 2001.

IMO i think that the development would be fantastic for the area, there's two yacht clubs (i think) proposed, a rowing club, shops, bars and night clubs (which all are desperatly needed) more restaurants (granted the restaurants in the village are majoritly very good). Plus the harbour there at the moment is useless. And i know a lot of north beach will be taken up by the development but noone uses it anyway! Not that i've seen.

Also i don't think, we as charlselandians have the right to object to such a development as charlesland is apparently the biggest development wicklow has ever had and we all live there (cept for few)

The meridian centre was a great idea but unfortunatly going bust due to the lack of business. Prodominatly to the lack of decent shops in there!

Greystones does need modernising is my two cents!

loyatemu

i don't think anyone thinks that the harbour should be left as it is, and greystones could definitely use some more leisure facilities and (arguably) a nightclub.

its the scale of the residential element that most people object to, and charlesland is not relevant to that - it was built on a greenfield site on the outskirts of town, not crowbarred into the middle of the village with seemingly no regard for the architecture or nature of the area.

Ossie

An Bord Pleanala having heard all the evidence have not granted permission to the proposed development. This is because of the gallant efforts of local people in Greystones who mobilised numerous State agencies to critise the plan.

Their plan is now doomed and should be immediately dropped by WCC who have already wasted a fortune on it.

Fiachra2

matt-dublin wrote:

Well as far as i know the WCC see the objections in a funny way.
As there were a lot of standardised letters sent in, they will be all counted as 1 objection in the eyes of the WCC as they are not individual.

I would guess the majority of the development will go ahead eventually.
It was originally thrown out by the wcc in 1997 but they changed their minds in 2001.

IMO i think that the development would be fantastic for the area, there's two yacht clubs (i think) proposed, a rowing club, shops, bars and night clubs (which all are desperatly needed) more restaurants (granted the restaurants in the village are majoritly very good). Plus the harbour there at the moment is useless. And i know a lot of north beach will be taken up by the development but noone uses it anyway! Not that i've seen.


Just a few clarifications Matt:
There will be one sailing club which is already in existence. The proposed location for the club is so unsatisfactory that the club itself has objected to the development
There will probably be a bar and restaurants which I agree is needed
There will not be a nightclub.
As one of the many people who use the harbour for about 10 months of the year, while I agree it needs repair, I cant agree that its useless
The north beach is a very important angling facilityand is walked on by quite a lot of residents. However its greatest value is as a visual amenity. It is very picturesque and that is the principal reason people dont want it built on.

Marcais

The decision is delayed until 27th September. Looks to me like this could be the optimum time to e-mail politicians.

Anyone who doesn't want the harbour destroyed....a final push could ensure that common sense (the least common of the senses as Auntie Joan woud say) and good taste prevail and that the proposed abomination is not allowed to gestate.

Fiachra2

This is interesting. In fact as its so relevant to Charlesland, Eoin, would it be worthe setting up as a seperate thread?

Apologies for inclding a political press release but Deirdre with Tom fortune is the only councillor around here who actually represents ordinary peoples views.



Greystones South Beach now targeted by developers says de Burca



Green Party councillor, Deirdre de Burca, says that while the controversy rages about the very large-scale development proposed for the Harbour and North Beach area in Greystones, the South Beach is now being targeted by potential developers.



The Green Party councillor made her comments after receiving a formal invitation to an invitation-only presentation on the future commercial and residential development of the South Beach area in Greystones which will be held in the Druid Marriott Hotel on Thursday 31st August.



“I was absolutely shocked to receive this invitation in the post this week from Foster and Partners, in association with Durkan Residential and Michael Mc Namara & Company” says de Burca. She says the invitation described the event as “an information evening and presentation on Greystones New Quarter, a visionary new plan for residential and commercial development for the South Beach area of Greystones “.The text of the invitation stated that the South Beach area of Greystones was the “last remaining substantial area for development within Greystones Town Boundary”.



“It appears that this architectural, planning and design company, Foster and Partners, has already completed a masterplan for the existing Charlesland Golf Club site, and hopes to integrate this site into a Master Plan for the wider South Beach area” says de Burca.



“I really thought this was a bad joke when I first received the invitation. The people of Greystones are in the process of trying to come to terms with the possible loss of the existing natural amenity of the North Beach and Harbour area if an Bord Pleanala give the Sispar development the green light” she says. “But the decision hasn’t even been made, and already plans are being drawn up for large-scale development of the South Beach area. All of this is happening without any real consultation with the people of Greystones, and obviously with the approval and support of Wicklow County Council”.



The Green Party councillor says that there is now a risk that if Greystones, and particularly its coastal areas, are over-developed, the very attractive and unique features of living in the town will be destroyed. “People will no longer want to live in Greystones if Wicklow County Council allows it to be seriously over-developed” she says. “I am calling on the County Manager, Eddie Sheehy to see sense, and to try and conserve or protect what is so attractive about Greystones while encouraging appropriate commercial and residential development”.



For further information please contact Cllr Deirdre de Burca on 086 8061450

Johnc72

Jesus Christ, Is nothing sacred.

loyatemu

Charlesland golf club (or the Evans family) apparently owns a lot of land to the south of the existing course and I had heard rumours that they were going to build a new course there, and sell the existing course to developers.

TBH this wouldn't worry me as much as the harbour development. Provided it didn't impact the beach itself (which given the location of the railway line its hard to see how it could). It's only golf course at the moment so its not providing amenity to anyone other than golfers. Any new development would probably be accessed off the new road and adjoin Charlesland.

As ever - if you build a new road, the land adjoining it will quickly be developed. This is no surprise.