Mixed reactions to Firefly....

TerrorFirmer

So I was given the first series of Firefly on DVD by someone there at Christmas, only got around to watching it last night, and I've watched now the initial first three episodes.

I'd heard it was good, and it normally is my sort of thing - especially given the recent new incarnation of Battlestar Galactica, which I love.

Now, I don't really know how I feel about Firefly. In fairness, I do like it really - it has the characters, the storyline, the dialogue that appeals to me and I will definately be watching the rest of the series, and following that, the movie Serenity (which I didn't want to see without seeing the series first).

But there are so many small niggling things which really take away from Firefly, for me personally in any case, I don't know how valid they are for everyone else.

1) The Theme music? I mean, surely everyone must think this is as out of place as could possibly be. It just plain doesn't suit the type of show this is; It made me cringe when I started watching. Surely a more classical epic type of score would have added immensely to the series?

2) The inconsistent qualities? I mean, there are some nice special effects, notably, the first shot of the Alliance Cruiser, hen there are some brutal effects, which in itself, doesn't matter a huge amount - but it does when you're watching things go up and down the quality ladder. On the same topic, there are some fantastic set pieces, cities, locations, etc. Then there are others that look like a Doctor Who set from the 70's, eg, the interior of the ship's bridge, the interior of the Alliance cruiser...etc

3) The traditional 80's B-Movie approach to weaponry. Again, this one really bothers me. It's 500 years in the future, we have space travel, advanced cities, etc, but yet we still have the traditional ak-74's, the m16, and other various weapons used today by modern armed forces. Then, to add insult to injury, they've added some crappy cheap plasma sound effect to the guns, whilst retaining normal muzzle flashes? It's like a script lifted straight from a seventies low budget sci fi....

There are lots of various little things like this that really hold back Firefly from being something a bit better, again though, thats me personally.

But as I mentioned above, I DO like the show, and I like where's it's going, and I love the classic formula of Evil Alliance, defeated Independants, etc....

Great show, but could have been much, much better....

Why was it cancelled? Lack of interest? Or what...?

Earthhorse

You've only watched the first three episodes so bear with it. Firefly is great because of where it goes with the characters not because of where it goes with sci-fi, effects or anything else.

Sleepy

The guns thing you'll understand better as you continue on through the series. They're supposed to be using crap weapons through a number of reasons:

1. They're in space, anything powerful enough to shoot a hole in the ship's hull would kill everyone almost instantly.
2. They're dirt poor, barely scraping a living in the furthest edges of the galaxy where everyone else (i.e. the losing faction of the war) is also poor. The difference in weaponry and technology is meant to be there, you'll see more on this as the series progresses.

Agree with you on the theme tune thing though (and if you look in the forum, I'd created a thread on niggles in the series).

Raphael

MobileInfantry: I disliked the theme music as well, but it starts to grow on you. By about halfway through disc 3 I liked it =/

Sleepy

TBH, Raphael, I watched the full series and by the last couple of episodes I was skipping through the opening sequence...

Pigman II

I actually liked the Theme tune. I hate this notion that a theme for sci-fi HAS to be orchestral purely because 2001ASO is the benchmark. It's a good tune that not only gets you in the 'wild west' mood (cos it is just a western in space) but sums up who MalcolmReynolds is, so you can't ask for more than that.

As to the show itself I enjoyed the first series but I could feel myself that it was already running out of steam towards the end. The last two episodes (HeartOfGold ep and ObjectsInSpace ep) were poor imho (and the movie was likewise) so I'm not too bothered it got cancelled.

TerrorFirmer

Sleepy wrote:

The guns thing you'll understand better as you continue on through the series. They're supposed to be using crap weapons through a number of reasons:

1. They're in space, anything powerful enough to shoot a hole in the ship's hull would kill everyone almost instantly.
2. They're dirt poor, barely scraping a living in the furthest edges of the galaxy where everyone else (i.e. the losing faction of the war) is also poor. The difference in weaponry and technology is meant to be there, you'll see more on this as the series progresses.

Agree with you on the theme tune thing though (and if you look in the forum, I'd created a thread on niggles in the series).

Pigman II, my notion of epic music being more suited isn't a nod towards influence from anything - I in fact can't even remember the music from ASO. I didn't mean classical in the sense of actual classical music - I mean in the John Williams style.

About the guns, the explanation of being poor, as well as the lack of risk to ships interior is grand - but still that doesn't explain why the standard issue 500 years in the future is still a standard machine gun.

For instance - outside of the poor/ship integrity explantion, the first episode showcasing the big war clearly shows the soldiers from both sides, independant and Alliance, all carrying assault rifles, which look identical to our current modern day weaponry. Added to that, they've done a cheap 70's style sound thing - simply replacing the rifle report with a crappy cheap plasma sound, whilst retaining normal muzzle flashes and looks. Example two: The Alliance Federals in the Train job episode all have normal assault rifles, and when one goes off by mistake, we see this time, a normal muzzle flash AND hear a normal machine gun sound clip?

I just think it's a shame for the show they couldn't have made a bit more of an effort with regards to a few things because as I said I am enjoying it alot, the plot and character developments are great and really make the show worthwhile and I'm very much looking forward to both the next episodes and the movie.

BTW - Did anyone else notice the Standard gear of an Alliance Federal is simply a Mobile Infantry combat gear from the movie Starship Troopers with cheap purple design put in certain parts?

ps - The theme tune did indeed grow on me even by the third episode, it's not bad in itself, but it just doesn't suit the show! Imo of course.

Daelus

I have to disagree about the 'Evil Alliance' factor. They aren't really evil at all, more a shade of grey. They just think they know what's best for everyone, and that's the problem with them.
And I'm not so sure the Independents were all that good and pure.

The theme music... yeah.. It grew on me after a while. I think it suits the show well, because this is about the little people (as Joss said: "the people history stepped on"), it's not a big epic journey; which is what classical music would imply.

I did notice a couple of problems with the effects where they just looked completely fake.

The last two episodes (HeartOfGold ep and ObjectsInSpace ep) were poor imho

I can agree with you on 'Heart Of Gold', but 'Objects in Space'? :eek: That was one of the strongest episodes, I think. But to each his own.

BTW - Did anyone else notice the Standard gear of an Alliance Federal is simply a Mobile Infantry combat gear from the movie Starship Troopers with cheap purple design put in certain parts?

Yeah, I noticed that. That was odd. I think they said on the commentary that they were running low on funds so they rented the ones from that film.

madrab

love the theme tune, thought it was wierd but interesting the first time & by the 3rd episode i really started to like it (even have it on mp3 )

TerrorFirmer

Daelus wrote:

Yeah, I noticed that. That was odd. I think they said on the commentary that they were running low on funds so they rented the ones from that film.

If you've ever seen the sci fi movie, "Imposter", it also has the Starship Troopers Mobile Infantry uniforms as standard "evil agency/government" gear. And believe it or not, soldiers featured in "Power Rangers" also donned the same gear! Popular uniform, eh?

I watched Episodes 4 and 5 last night - Episode 5, whilst entertaining, wasn't particularly strong, but I found Episode 4, bushwhacked, to be absolutely superb. The set pieces, development and atmosphere involved in the mystery of the abandoned shuttle were brilliant. Without being overly graphic, it really portrayed a sense of strong and disturbing violence and I was genuinely engrossed 100%. The sfx in the episode where great as well, the only weak point being the cartoon like depiction of the Reaver trap attaching to Serenity, but that hardly matters much....

It's a great show overall, why was it cancelled? I can only assume it was due to lack of popularity...?

Sleepy

From watching the extra materials on the box-set it would seem that Fox just wanted a "Joss Whedon Show", they never wanted Firefly itself. When they saw the original trailer 'Serenity' they made him make 'The Train Job' as a new trailer and opened the show with that (essentially showing episode 3 first). Fox, at the time (though presumably still), prefered shows which were more obvious and less mysterious about their characters (the very reasons why Firefly is so good). They wanted the audience to be straight into the action and know exactly what was going on from the start. Then, when the show failed to catch off due to crap scheduling, they decided to axe it (despite the show's fans taking out a full-page ad in Variety magazine to try and save the show). More details here: http://www.fireflywiki.org/Firefly/AboutFirefly

Or the short answer: Fox are idiots.

Cactus Col

Starship troopers also used machine guns rather than any type of advanced weaponry.

just saying.

TerrorFirmer

Cactus Col wrote:

Starship troopers also used machine guns rather than any type of advanced weaponry.

just saying.

Yes, but it was neither set 500 years in the future nor did they attempt to edit the machine gun fire with crappy plasma sound effects.

And at least they were original and futuristic looking. It was based on a real weapon and modified extensively (The Morita from SST) whereas the weapons in Firefly are the the same as modern day forces use.

TerrorFirmer

Right, on the issue of the Alliance not really being evil - You have to laugh at the cliched influences and appearances of it's representitives in relation to the shows characters.

The goons, the ruthless officers, and for gods sake, in the episode "War Stories", the Alliance trooper has a coal scuttle helmet (For those not familar with it, German Army Standard issue during the second world war)! Added to that, every situation referenced to in the war seems to point to the Alliance being an unstoppable evil juggernaunt. In no scene do we see two "equal" sides as such fighting - in every scene it seems to be our heroes holding out against unstoppable odds in face of the destructive steam roller Alliance intent on crushing everything in their path!

Alliance are portrayed not as straight forward "Evil" but they are definately leaning towards a totalitarian regime with an iron will, and I think of them as such.

Anyway, on the subject, did anyone think the original Deleted intro, the aftermath of Serenity Valley, seemed to be without a doubt superior to the current first episodes action intro? Very haunting image I thought, shame to see it went to the cutting room floor.

Daelus

Well, on the side of the independents; they pulled out in Serenity Valley and supposedly left the remaining soldiers there for weeks with no medical aid. So they're not so heroic there, I don't think. I don't think it's the intention of the Alliance to "be evil" or anything. And people on the core planets seem to live happy, uncorrupted lives. But it does have the point of view that makes the browncoats seem more heroic, I guess.

Anyway, on the subject, did anyone think the original Deleted intro, the aftermath of Serenity Valley, seemed to be without a doubt superior to the current first episodes action intro? Very haunting image I thought, shame to see it went to the cutting room floor.

I preferred that one, too. Apparently FOX wanted something more.. dumb. They wanted something that grabbed people right away. But then they decided to air 'The Train Job' instead. FOX executives are so confusing.

Syth

Serenity's story is about the evilness of the Alliance. It'll give you some food for thought.

And the first episode 'Serenity' was shown last in the US.

Branoic

Ok, my thoughts on Firefly:

I love the theme music. It jarred for the first episode or two, but as I became more familiar with the themes of the programme, the themes in the opening music about resistence and freedom totally suited the show.

The weapons thing doesn't really bother me too much.

Yes, the Alliance gets the cliched treatment of "evil" now and again, but then I really do subscribe to the idea that they're meant to be seen as "grey". Their evilness is in their cultural imperialism / dominance, and, as another poster said, their absolute belief that they know best. They're like America. America isn't "evil", but it sure as hell is questionable, and it hasn't been involved in an equal scrap in the last 40 years.

The only thing that gets to me really about Firefly is the sameness of all the planets - especially if you watch all the episodes close together. I like the whole "western in space" feel, and I know they're flying around the dirt poor rim planets, but I really don't like how all planets look like Texas!

DirkVoodoo

I would say that visually with regards the planets it is important to remember that budgetary constraints would prevent them from having a range of star wars type planets (ice/desert/tropical jungle/lava planet). Maybe that would be the ideal, maybe joss whedon wants them all to be arid planets due to the terraforming process, maybe it would be too costly to fly to various locations to film different locations and/or construct expensive sets.

I felt like most people about the theme song; i cringed slightly after I first heard it, by episode 3 i was singing along with it (i especially like the little solo in the middle, is that a banjo?)

Anyway, its a well constructed universe thats based more around fantasy than an actual scientific analysis of how hand held pistols will change over the next 500 yrs, etc.

Glad to see so many ppl here watch it....can't stop the signal

Pigman II

DirkVoodoo wrote:

maybe joss whedon wants them all to be arid planets due to the terraforming process,

IIRC he said on the DVD's that he didn't want it to be too 'sci fi', just to be 'us' only in set the future. For example, you'll notice there is no non-humans anywhere in the show.

I think he also said something about all the planets the visit being terraformed worlds too?

secret_squirrel

Cactus Col wrote:

Starship troopers also used machine guns rather than any type of advanced weaponry.

As does BSG.

Personally I think the theme tune is a real grower. Million times better than say - Enterprise's.

"You can't take the sky from me...." Everybody singalong!

For a real different theme tune BSG's rules.

sutty

secret_squirrel wrote:

For a real different theme tune BSG's rules.

Dont get me wrong here, I love BSG, watched it from the start.. but I always get reminded of Farscape when the theme song comes on.

TerrorFirmer

secret_squirrel wrote:

As does BSG.

My quibble wasn't that they use modern day weaponary - as you pointed out, most sci fi shows do, it keeps it that bit closer to us today so we can still identify with it if you will. It keeps it that bit more relevant, if you can say that about any show set inthe future of space travel and cross planet travelling

But my annoyance came from the fact in Serenity they not only used current weaponary, which in itself is fine, they added these uber cheesy 80's style plasma effects to all the gun reports! I thought that was quite simply poor and shouldn't have made it through!

DirkVoodoo

I dont know how the guns work, im going to go out on a limb here and say its more a style choice to fit in with the 'western sci-fi' theme of the show. By having weapons that remind us of Clint Eastwood flicks yet are not out of place in a future setting, would it be so hard to stretch our imaginations and say that maybe, just maybe these weapons dont use gunpowder but some other chemical reaction to propel the bullets that produces, not a loud bang, but a tinny 'plasma pistol' sound

Anyway, even if it is just a corny b-0movie sci-fi effect, i like it! And we do see laser pistols and other futuristic weaponry in the show, such as the alliance sonic cannons. As others have mentioned, which is true, the weapons are a nice way of highlighting the differences in wealth and technology between the 'frontier' style border planets, and the more futuristic core planets.

TerrorFirmer

DirkVoodoo wrote:

As others have mentioned, which is true, the weapons are a nice way of highlighting the differences in wealth and technology between the 'frontier' style border planets, and the more futuristic core planets.

Your first point is pretty valid actually, nice idea, but the above one isn't - both armies in the initial episode showing the battle for Serenity Valley are using Machine guns, albeit with the "tinny plasma sound"

I just think the whole thing is really inconsistant and incredibly crappy done. There are a fair few good explantions for the weaponary including the wealth differences, the realativity idea,and alot more, but everything seems to cross over itself and ultimately there is no explantion but poor production on the shows part....

But it's hardly something that drags the show down

DirkVoodoo

HavoK wrote:

But it's hardly something that drags the show down

Damn true!:D Ill admit some of the 'sci-fi' elements of firefly are questionable, however i really just watch it for the great characters and interesting stories.

Was absolutely gutted when i had to watch episode 14 though, all good things and all that lark!

Great to see people are still so interested in it!

The Mad Hatter

HavoK wrote:

BTW - Did anyone else notice the Standard gear of an Alliance Federal is simply a Mobile Infantry combat gear from the movie Starship Troopers with cheap purple design put in certain parts?

ps - The theme tune did indeed grow on me even by the third episode, it's not bad in itself, but it just doesn't suit the show! Imo of course.

The gear worn by the Alliance Troopers looks like the Starship Troopers uniform because, well, they were the Starship Troopers uniforms. They couldn't afford to make that many of their own, so they borrowed 'em from the studio's wardrobe.

The theme song (which, incidentally, I don't like) is, at least in terms of pure subject matter, ideal for the show. It's not a show about exploring the final frontier and all that rubbish, it's about a small number of people resisting, each for their own reasons, the great law. As such, an orchestrated country song (which is what you've got) is perfect. It also stands as one of the very few TV themes whose subject matter applies directly to the series. A classical or epic soundtrack would suggest that we were watching from the Alliance's point of view, I guess. Even the soundtrack is made up of slide guitars and fiddle solos.

Pigman II, I'm surprised you didn't like Objects in Space, I thought it was an excellent episode. Rare I've seen anything quite that claustrophobic being pulled off effectively. Plus Early's theme on the bassoon was brilliant. It also held the most blatant suggestion that there was a lot more to preacher than was ever revealed, so I'm surprised that from that alone you didn't want to see more.

As for the weaponry, if you look carefully at it, you'll see that it's not quite standard, as regards what you'll see on troops nowadays. Also, once you get to disc 3 you'll see what the Alliance is really capable of in terms of weapons. And what it's weapons aren't capable of...

TempestSabre

Have to agree its all very B-grade. But then they had a limited budget. But it has charm and character and also a the characters are better. Personally I like it better than the new Battlestar G.