United Vs Blackburn! Will Alex never learn??

therecklessone

The Muppet wrote:

Do you consider yourself a better Judge of a footballer than Alex Ferguson ?

Fletcher has had some poor performances but to say he's an awful player is not fair either. I have been encouraged by some of his recent performance in the centre midfield .

Mate, you got to accept he ain't the required standard.

As a neutral (well, neutral unless you're playing Spurs) it strikes me that much of the criticism of Fergie's last couple of years have hinged on quality of players who've made their way into the first team in place of, or as a compliment to, the existing first teamers, and it looked a lot like there was a gulf in class between the old and the new. I don't need to go into the list of underperformers, do I?

Last Summer and this transfer window appears to suggest a change of fortune. VDS, park, Vidic, and Evra are all CL-quality players, and thats exactly what Utd need if they're to maintain a place in the upper echelons of English football. Fletcher is plainly not CL-quality.

therecklessone

PHB wrote:

When Pederson preforms like Ronaldo does for Portugal, then I'll take notice, but until then, I'm glad we didnt buy him when we had the chance.

Interesting point.

I rate Pedersen (won't compare him to Ronaldo though, thats someone else's fight) but there's a lot of debate on Spurs fan boards over the last few days on his worth,and many of our Norwegian brethren are cool on the lad because they maintain he's never excelled at an international level.

Now I've never seen him play for Norway, and I imagine most of the Norwegians would have seen more of him in a Norway shirt than a Blackburn shirt, so I don't know how valid either opinion is without having seen both. Its an alternative view point though.

Lemlin

Pedersen started 19 games last season? Bit of a contradiction on your part here.He only played 6 games less than Ronaldo, he played exactly half the league games, or was 19 his total amount of appearances? anyway according to you he didnt play last year, and then you said he played 19 games ???

My point is that he didn't play until the latter half of the season, therefore I can't see how you said "pedersen wasnt up to much until the end of last year". He wasn't even playing for Blackburn until the end of last year. And, in that half a season, he accomplished just as much as Ronaldo had managed in the full season.

Perhaps not this season, but if i had a choice i'd pick Ronaldo over Pedersen every time. It's far easier to be a big fish in a small pond. Teams dont put 11 men behind the ball against Blackburn, they do against United, Left back and left midfield mark Ronaldo, i've seen this happen time and time again. Teams come to Old trafford and double up on both wingers thus cutting off United's wide threat which in the past used to destroy visiting teams at Old Trafford.

I didn't see Blackburn doubling up on Ronaldo the other night and he had little impact. In fact, he was against one of our weaker defensive players, Michael Gray, and still managed little. Pedersen was playing left midfield for Rovers and he didn't double mark Ronaldo either. If anything, I saw the United players doubling up on Pedersen, as alot of teams tend to do now against Blackburn.

Ronaldo would not have cost 12 million if he had moved to Blackburn or Bolton or Boro. He cost 12 million purely because it was Man Utd he was moving to.

He cost 12 million because United paid over the odds. If I'm correct I believe there was once talk of investigating his move to see why United had offered 5 million or so more than other clubs had bid.

Originally posted by PHB
Cole:
Appearances : 16
Goals : 6
Assists : 2

Fairly good.

p.s.
If we are going to take the teams preformance in account when judging players, maybe you should look at the formation United played last year and for the start of this year, 4-3-3, which often meant ronaldo ran ahead of the team and had little to pass too, also the awful immobility of Uniteds midfield last season, so that Ronaldo often had few people to pass too.
When Pederson preforms like Ronaldo does for Portugal, then I'll take notice, but until then, I'm glad we didnt buy him when we had the chance.

Fairly good but he has failed to hold down a place in the Chelsea team for quite a while now. He's had a good run of form but Pedersen's record is better than Joe Cole's, and who's been playing PL soccer regularly for several seasons now?

It's interesting to see that you take the view that United turned him down. Have you anything to back this up? Most of the reports I've read state that United were after him but Blackburn got in before them.

Interesting that you also point out the tactics United used last season, what's the problem with Ronaldo's form this season then?

Originally posted by therecklessone
Interesting point.

I rate Pedersen (won't compare him to Ronaldo though, thats someone else's fight) but there's a lot of debate on Spurs fan boards over the last few days on his worth,and many of our Norwegian brethren are cool on the lad because they maintain he's never excelled at an international level.

Now I've never seen him play for Norway, and I imagine most of the Norwegians would have seen more of him in a Norway shirt than a Blackburn shirt, so I don't know how valid either opinion is without having seen both. Its an alternative view point though.

Interesting point I agree too but has PHB ever seen Pedersen play for Norway? How does he know that Gamst Pedersen does not perform for Norway like Ronaldo does for Portugal?

Taking the point into account though, I've never seen him play for Norway but, judging from the way some Irish players are judged on here, I'm happy that he performs for Blackburn and couldn't give a toss how he plays for Norway. According to the stats here: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=9856&cc=5739. He has scored 3 goals in eleven starts, a record that many would be proud to have. After all, Damien Duff has hardly set the world alight for Ireland recently but I doubt SAF would turn down having him in his team.

therecklessone

Lemlin wrote:

After all, Damien Duff has hardly set the world alight for Ireland recently but I doubt SAF would turn down having him in his team.

Probably not a great example.

Duff is still seen as Ireland's best player and the most likely to hurt the opposition, and hence he faces the same treatment MGP gets at club level, i.e. doubling up on him and trying to deny him space and possession.

What struck me about the criticism of MGP by his countrymen was the possibility that a player can be good at domestic level (can't really ask for more as a Blackburn fan) but not make the grade at international level, suggesting (in the immortal words of Eamonn Dunphy) that he may be a good player, not a great player.

MGP has also yet to be challenged at european level with Blackburn (did he play at Tromso?)

Just me playing devil's advocate...

PHB

Fairly good but he has failed to hold down a place in the Chelsea team for quite a while now.

You don't appear to be following Chelsea, but he has played the last 6 matches straight I think. think about Cole, compared to Pederson, and also compared to Ronaldo, is that Cole is now starting to reach his potential, and is above Pederson quite some bit.

Interesting that you also point out the tactics United used last season, what's the problem with Ronaldo's form this season then?

His Dad died
He was accused of rape and then arrested
He is 21 years old

How do you think you would deal?

I didn't see Blackburn doubling up on Ronaldo the other night and he had little impact. In fact, he was against one of our weaker defensive players, Michael Gray, and still managed little. Pedersen was playing left midfield for Rovers and he didn't double mark Ronaldo either. If anything, I saw the United players doubling up on Pedersen, as alot of teams tend to do now against Blackburn.

Ronaldo was dealt with in the Blackburn game by being fouled. Tugay fouled him 3 times before he got booked(4 fouls in total), and then got taken off, cause you couldn't foul him anymore.
Pederson was doubled up on? By who, Ronaldo? Who doesn't track back?
He was marked just as any left winger would be marked.

Interesting point I agree too but has PHB ever seen Pedersen play for Norway? How does he know that Gamst Pedersen does not perform for Norway like Ronaldo does for Portugal?

Actually I saw one Norway match a while back, but can't remember Pederson in it, but he did play. I know from stats cause I had this arguement with someone on a united forum already.

World Cup Qualifying - UEFA
Pederson
Apperances : 9
Goals : 2

Ronaldo:
Apperances : 12
Goals 7

Ronaldo has preformed at the top level, both in internationals, and in the CL, see Milan last year where he was our best player in both matches. All he is missing is consistancy, and once that happens, well...

If Pederson showed me he could be amazing, and totally dominate a game like Ronaldo can when he is on form, I'd want him bought in a second, but until then, I'm happy with Ronaldo

Lemlin

You don't appear to be following Chelsea, but he has played the last 6 matches straight I think. think about Cole, compared to Pederson, and also compared to Ronaldo, is that Cole is now starting to reach his potential, and is above Pederson quite some bit.

I am following Chelsea. Cole had a run of five games. He didn not start their last match. That run was even mainly down to injuries to players like Makele, Duff and Essien. When all are fit and well, I would imagine Cole will return to the subs bench. Just a week or two ago Mourinho criticised him. That he is above Pedersen is your own opinion. I have mine and its that he's a showboater who's built up by the English media.

Your point about Ronaldo and what he has had to go through is correct. The fact is still there that he has the talent to be a world-beater but does not look like fulfilling that talent. Perhaps the future will tell but he looks like another Josh to me eg. starting well but now the critics are knawing away at his confidence.

Neville marked Pedersen and was often helped out by one of the central defenders. As for the fouling, Tugay got physical with him, so what? He tends to fall over like a flower in the wind. Blackburn's players were still able to perform with Alan Smith getting physical. That's why Hughes didn't throw MGP straight into the PL last season, he gave him a chance to get stronger. As long as Ronaldo keeps showing his weakness, he'll be targetted.

All of Ronaldo's performances for Portugal that I have seen were in Euro 2004, where he looked tremendous. That said, I couldn't give a toss how MGP plays for Norway if he is performing for Blackburn. I wouldn also imagine that, as a United fan, you don't really care if Ronaldo plays crap for Portugal or not. Yes, its all well and good if he plays well, but its not going to affect you if he's terrible for Portugal but plays superbly in the red of United.

Ronaldo dominate a game? On present form it will be a long time before that happens. I can't even remember when it could be said he last dominated a game for United.

Probably not a great example.

Duff is still seen as Ireland's best player and the most likely to hurt the opposition, and hence he faces the same treatment MGP gets at club level, i.e. doubling up on him and trying to deny him space and possession.

What struck me about the criticism of MGP by his countrymen was the possibility that a player can be good at domestic level (can't really ask for more as a Blackburn fan) but not make the grade at international level, suggesting (in the immortal words of Eamonn Dunphy) that he may be a good player, not a great player.

MGP has also yet to be challenged at european level with Blackburn (did he play at Tromso?)

Just me playing devil's advocate...

He has not played in Europe for Tromso AFAIK or for Blackburn (hopefully he will soon ). Perhaps Norway's style doesn't suit him or something. Having not seen any of Norway's games I don't think any of us can really comment TBH.

Lemlin

Originally posted by The Muppet
Do you consider yourself a better Judge of a footballer than Alex Ferguson ?

Fletcher has had some poor performances but to say he's an awful player is not fair either. I have been encouraged by some of his recent performance in the centre midfield .

Not the SAF of old but after Forlan, Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba, Miller and decisions like that of playing Alan Smith in midfield, I think anyone could question his judgement.

PHB

Neville marked Pedersen and was often helped out by one of the central defenders. As for the fouling, Tugay got physical with him, so what? He tends to fall over like a flower in the wind. Blackburn's players were still able to perform with Alan Smith getting physical. That's why Hughes didn't throw MGP straight into the PL last season, he gave him a chance to get stronger. As long as Ronaldo keeps showing his weakness, he'll be targetted.

The point is, the only way Ronaldo can be dealt with, and the only way he is ever dealt with by most opposing teams, is by fouling him. The only reason Blackburn were able to deal with it is because the ref didn't take action quick enough to stop it.
Also Ronaldo tried to ride every single tackle committed on him in the blackburn match, but that isn't noticed by the press cause it doesn't make for a good story.

its not going to affect you if he's terrible for Portugal but plays superbly in the red of United.

Nope, but its why he is a better player, and why I want him in my team.

Ronaldo dominate a game? On present form it will be a long time before that happens. I can't even remember when it could be said he last dominated a game for United.

Bolton.
Scored twice.
Hit the post.
Destroyed bolton at every oppurtunity.
12 days ago.

jank

Ronaldo has preformed at the top level, both in internationals, and in the CL, see Milan last year where he was our best player in both matches. All he is missing is consistancy, and once that happens, well...

LOL now I have heard it all...Ronaldo the best player Utd had those days?
The only thing I remember him doing is trying to square up to Cafu and making himself look like an idiot in the process

Ronaldo is a one trick donkey. Has about one good game every 10-15 and then thinks he has license to do what he wants so makes a fool out of himself for the other ten games or so.

I made my case about Ronaldo already so I wont bother but PHB you should still take on board others view points at least

PHB

ah jank, i thought we'd agreed to disagree, since we quite clearly disagree

Best player in those two matches I thought, i remember the second one pretty well as I was there being amazed by him. Had never seen him play in real life before. As for one trick? Can you name a trick he hasn't done?

p.s.
For a really great post written by a fan on ronaldo, see
http://www.redcafe.net/showthread.php?t=100462

Hobart

jank wrote:

LOL now I have heard it all...Ronaldo the best player Utd had those days?
The only thing I remember him doing is trying to square up to Cafu and making himself look like an idiot in the process

Ronaldo is a one trick donkey. Has about one good game every 10-15 and then thinks he has license to do what he wants so makes a fool out of himself for the other ten games or so.

I made my case about Ronaldo already so I wont bother but PHB you should still take on board others view points at least

While I disagree that he is a "one trick donkey" I can see where your sentiments are coming from. I also disagree with your "excuses" put forward for his many lack lustre performances over the past few months PHB, most noably his laughable display in Portugal this year when Manu were uncerimoniously dumped out of Europe.

What you seem to forget is that no matter what his age is or his personal circumstances he is employed a professional footballer. That entails giveing your all for your team everytime you have the privilage to be picked to play. Ronaldo has failed to do this on many many occasions this season and it is to his detriment and the detriment of his teammates that this is the case.

However he does have potential fantastic potential. He is quick, skillful and a decent crosser of the ball. He can score and make goals.

He needs to cut the sh1t out. Once and for all. His constant showboating is cringeingly embarresing, and does not work anymore. Look at Joe Cole. A player who has been through what Ronaldo is going through at the moment. There was a time where he could not run in a straight line. Fergie needs to get a hold of him, sooner, rather than later or he will end up another Manu has-been.

jank

Can you name a trick he hasn't done?

cross the ball

Big Nelly

therecklessone wrote:

3 instances that I'm aware of. TBH, I usually ignore your posts, there's enough drivel on boards in general without me having to trawl through your thoughts on the game

Well continue too Please. You should know about drivel. All your posts are either drivel or attacking someone. So don't bother reading my posts so I wont have to answer the sort of cr*p you posted yesterday. Everyone will be happy then!

The Muppet

Lemlin wrote:

Not the SAF of old but after Forlan, Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba, Miller and decisions like that of playing Alan Smith in midfield, I think anyone could question his judgement.

Is that the same Forlan that won the European Golden Boot last year ?

therecklessone

Big Nelly wrote:

Well continue too Please. You should know about drivel. All your posts are either drivel or attacking someone. So don't bother reading my posts so I wont have to answer the sort of cr*p you posted yesterday. Everyone will be happy then!

Still ranting.

Big Nelly

therecklessone wrote:

Still ranting.

Definitions of rant:

* harangue: a loud bombastic declamation expressed with strong emotion
* bombast: pompous or pretentious talk or writing
* talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner

Lemlin

The Muppet wrote:

Is that the same Forlan that won the European Golden Boot last year ?

Yes, and the same Forlan who was dreadful at United. Or do I need to remind you? There's another black mark against SAF if you like: he's now incapable of getting the best from his players.

As with PHB's point, it's pretty pointless for United if Forlan can win the Golden Boot at Villarreal.

Lemlin

Originally posted by PHB
Bolton.
Scored twice.
Hit the post.
Destroyed bolton at every oppurtunity.
12 days ago.

Scoring two when United had already won the game, and after some terrible defensive errors by Bolton when their confidence was low, is hardly dominating a game. Ronaldo had a good game that day, the first in a while, but he did not grab the game by the scruff of the neck like Patrick Vieira, Steven Gerrard or Roy Keane would. Fact is, there is little chance for players like Pedersen and Ronaldo to do that.

Originally posted by PHB
Nope, but its why he is a better player, and why I want him in my team.

That is your opinion and I respect it. I also have my own opinion.

Originally posted by PHB
The point is, the only way Ronaldo can be dealt with, and the only way he is ever dealt with by most opposing teams, is by fouling him. The only reason Blackburn were able to deal with it is because the ref didn't take action quick enough to stop it.
Also Ronaldo tried to ride every single tackle committed on him in the blackburn match, but that isn't noticed by the press cause it doesn't make for a good story.

Its the only way alot of players can be dealt with. Do you not think others, like Pedersen and Duff, get the shins kicked off them on a weekly basis? They just get up and get on with it though. Ronaldo is going to have to learn to do the same to evolve his game.

He can't allow teams to impose their strength on him and force him out of games. At the moment he is allowing that.

Hobart

The Muppet wrote:

Is that the same Forlan that won the European Golden Boot last year ?

It's actually called the Golden Shoe and he did not win it outright. He shared it with Henry.

WRT Fergie's judement, there is absoloutely no questioning that he made some head scratching singings over the last few years. Not only the one's listed above, lest we forget the great Massimo Taiibi (sp?).

Yes, and the same Forlan who was dreadful at United. Or do I need to remind you? There's another black mark against SAF if you like: he's now incapable of getting the best from his players.

I would agree. Forlan was quite prolific at Independiente, before Manu got their hands on him. Look at his form since leaving? Veron anyone? Ronaldo?

The Muppet

Hobart wrote:

It's actually called the Golden Shoe and he did not win it outright. He shared it with Henry. ?

Is It , sInce when ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Golden_Boot (dont bother I know it's called both)

DId I say he won it outright ?

dirkey_wynne

The Muppet wrote:

Do you consider yourself a better Judge of a footballer than Alex Ferguson ?

Fletcher has had some poor performances but to say he's an awful player is not fair either. I have been encouraged by some of his recent performance in the centre midfield .

No. I don't consider myself a better judge, but I don't consider Fergie infallible. Do you? It's parochialism, that is why Fletch is in the side. Do you consider yourself a better judge than John Giles? And just abuot any other analyst. They all see he's awful. Fergie has a history of playing bad players, Silvestre, he's cost us goals many times. O'Shea. Chadwick. Forlan.

He makes mistakes. He's making a mistake with Fletcher.

dirkey_wynne

jank wrote:

LOL now I have heard it all...Ronaldo the best player Utd had those days?
The only thing I remember him doing is trying to square up to Cafu and making himself look like an idiot in the process

Ronaldo is a one trick donkey. Has about one good game every 10-15 and then thinks he has license to do what he wants so makes a fool out of himself for the other ten games or so.

I made my case about Ronaldo already so I wont bother but PHB you should still take on board others view points at least

I have to agree with original poster. Ron was best player on both occasions. I remember, especially after the 2nd leg, thinking he had come of age. Why? Because when Utd went 1 down, and it was pretty much all over, he was the only player showing urgency, he was the only player looking for the ball. He showed heart, he wasn't giving up.

Now unfortunately, since then he hasn't really done that, but I know he has it in him.

He was our best player those days in my opinion.

PHB

I'm sorry, since when have managers not had flops?

You name Forlan, Kleberson, DD, and Miller.
First off, Miller isn't known yet, but he was free, so who cares.

Forlan didn't suit Uniteds style of play, and I'm fairly sure he was bought just to stop Boro having him. Furthermore he scoring record for United is fairly impressive, like 0.66 goals a game. Fergie got the best out of him. The problem with Forlan, and it will always be his problem, is that he could never ever expect to compete with Van Nist, who gets the goals and is a team player.

Kleberson and DD are mysteries to me. Both were both for less than then million, b ut both have failed where they have since gone, and were just bad buys.

Also to claim Fergie doesn't get the best out of players he buys is just silly.
Van Nist, Rooney, Park, Slyvestre, Stam, Sheringham, Ole all improved massivly, absolutely massivly under Fergie, so lets not just focus on four/five examples and generalise

Hobart

The Muppet wrote:

Is It , sInce when ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Golden_Boot (dont bother I know it's called both)

DId I say he won it outright ?

Do you know how wiki works? Lol. Just a tip for you, never ever rely on wiki for reference.

It's correct title is the Golden Shoe => http://worldsoccer.com/esm/esmgoldenshoe.php

No you did not say he won it outright, your answer could be interepted that way. I was clarfiying your answer .

dirkey_wynne

PHB wrote:

I'm sorry, since when have managers not had flops?

You name Forlan, Kleberson, DD, and Miller.
First off, Miller isn't known yet, but he was free, so who cares.

Forlan didn't suit Uniteds style of play, and I'm fairly sure he was bought just to stop Boro having him. Furthermore he scoring record for United is fairly impressive, like 0.66 goals a game. Fergie got the best out of him. The problem with Forlan, and it will always be his problem, is that he could never ever expect to compete with Van Nist, who gets the goals and is a team player.

Kleberson and DD are mysteries to me. Both were both for less than then million, b ut both have failed where they have since gone, and were just bad buys.

Also to claim Fergie doesn't get the best out of players he buys is just silly.
Van Nist, Rooney, Park, Slyvestre, Stam, Sheringham, Ole all improved massivly, absolutely massivly under Fergie, so lets not just focus on four/five examples and generalise

I agree that he gets the best out of some players, but saying he's got the best out of Silvestre is a strange one, he's a defender completely prone to calamity. He makes mistakes, all managers to. He does some great things, he does some bad things. I just hope that when a couple of new midfielders come in, the likes of Fletch and Smith don't get their game in their anymore (incidentally i think Smith is more than capable up front).

The Muppet

therecklessone wrote:

Mate, you got to accept he ain't the required standard..

I do accept that he is not at the required standard at the moment. He has shown definite signs of improvement and Fergie is on record as saying that he will not reach his full potential for another two years. AS you know different players develop at a differnt rate (David Platt) and so fergies judemnet may be right regarding fletcher as he is a better judge than us armchair pundits here. (myself included)

therecklessone wrote:

As a neutral (well, neutral unless you're playing Spurs) it strikes me that much of the criticism of Fergie's last couple of years have hinged on quality of players who've made their way into the first team in place of, or as a compliment to, the existing first teamers, and it looked a lot like there was a gulf in class between the old and the new. I don't need to go into the list of underperformers, do I?

Last Summer and this transfer window appears to suggest a change of fortune. VDS, park, Vidic, and Evra are all CL-quality players, and thats exactly what Utd need if they're to maintain a place in the upper echelons of English football. Fletcher is plainly not CL-quality.

You are cetainly right that United have made some bad transfers in recent years and Fergie would have to shoulder the blame for that but without have access to the full details surrounding the reasoning for those purchases it is difficult to comment.MOst of those were not Fergies first choice.

Veron was an excellent player before his move to United .When he signed I distinctly remember people on here saying that United would be unbeatable with him in the team. It didin't work out. Forlan didn.t work out either but he has proved since that he is a top striker but was just not suited to the english game. KLeb was a world cup winner who IMO was purchased as part of the attempt to get Roaldinho to come. (I have no proof of that but it is just my opinion). Its eas to say in hindsight that Fergies judgement is flawed but in his 20 years at united his signings on the whole have been excellent.

Hobart

PHB wrote:

I'm sorry, since when have managers not had flops?

You name Forlan, Kleberson, DD, and Miller.
First off, Miller isn't known yet, but he was free, so who cares.

I suppose it's the frequency as opposed from the "they all have flops" theory you are espousing. Fergie has had more than his fair share of flops.

Forlan didn't suit Uniteds style of play, and I'm fairly sure he was bought just to stop Boro having him.

Sounds like hog wash to me.

Furthermore he scoring record for United is fairly impressive, like 0.66 goals a game.

Where did you pull that out off? Thats almost 2 goals every 3 games. He was nowhere close to that.

Fergie got the best out of him.

That is just simply wrong. Look at his scoring record elsewhere. At EVERY club he played for he scored more than he did at Manu.

The Muppet

Hobart wrote:

Do you know how wiki works? Lol. Just a tip for you, never ever rely on wiki for reference.

It's correct title is the Golden Shoe => http://worldsoccer.com/esm/esmgoldenshoe.php

No you did not say he won it outright, your answer could be interepted that way. I was clarfiying your answer .

How Pedantic. Here's anothe link for you http://www.looksmartcycling.com/p/articles/mi_qn4159/is_20050807/ai_n14862322 There are hundreds of referneces to it being called the golden boot on the net as thats what footballers wear .

Google is your friend.

Add it to your list.:p


How's the research coming along ?:)

dirkey_wynne

The Muppet wrote:

I do accept that he is not at the required standard at the moment. He has shown definite signs of improvement and Fergie is on record as saying that he will not reach his full potential for another two years. AS you know different players develop at a differnt rate (David Platt) and so fergies judemnet may be right regarding fletcher as he is a better judge than us armchair pundits here. (myself included)

I've read these quotes, about how he needs to "grow into his body" etc. To be honest I just don't think this is the case. Fair enough he needs to bulk up. Without a doubt. But he hasn't got the heart for a midfield role imho. He jumps out of tackles, never goes in hard. His first touch is poor and he gives the ball away more often than not. These things won't improve all that much, you either have the technique or don't.

A friend of mine once said to me, you can pretty much tell straight away if a player is good enough. And you can, I think. They look at home straight away. I have honestly never felt Fletch has been anything more than at best, average. And that's happened about 3 times in his career.

And if the case that he won't reach his potential for 2 years, why is he pretty much a first choice player now!? Madness, imho.

Hobart

The Muppet wrote:

How Pedantic.{snip}

Just keeping you on the straight and narrow Tom.:v:

@PHB, where are you getting your 2 goals in every 3 games stat for Forlan?

[edit] It seems implausible to the many who derided Forlan after he scored just 10 goals in 62 United appearances[/edit] thats a million miles from .66 goals a game.

dirkey_wynne

Hobart wrote:

Just keeping you on the straight and narrow Tom.:v:

@PHB, where are you getting your 2 goals in every 3 games stat for Forlan?

[edit] It seems implausible to the many who derided Forlan after he scored just 10 goals in 62 United appearances[/edit] thats a million miles from .66 goals a game.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=18587&cc=5739
I have him as having:
37 Starts
61 Subs
17 Goals.

Hobart

dirkey_wynne wrote:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=18587&cc=5739
I have him as having:
37 Starts
61 Subs
17 Goals.

Thats gives him less than a goal every 5 games or under .2

http://www.footballdatabase.com/site/players/index.php?dumpPlayer=519

Has him on: 63 games (league I suspect) and 10 goals or 1 goal every 6 games or .15 goals per games. A million miles from 2 goals every 3 games and hardly what you would classify as "fairly impressive". In fact it would be fairly abysmal tbh.

dirkey_wynne

Hobart wrote:

Thats gives him less than a goal every 5 games or under .2

http://www.footballdatabase.com/site/players/index.php?dumpPlayer=519

Has him on: 63 games (league I suspect) and 10 goals or 1 goal every 6 games or .15 goals per games. A million miles from 2 goals every 3 games and hardly what you would classify as "fairly impressive". In fact it would be fairly abysmal tbh.

I've always thought it a bit harsh to give avg's based on sub appearances (may be as little as 10 mins or less on the pitch), so if you were to break down his sub appearances, dividing by 3, in my opinion that gives a better reflection. Just my opinion now! And I'm by far and away not a Forlan fan.

Hobart

dirkey_wynne wrote:

I've always thought it a bit harsh to give avg's based on sub appearances (may be as little as 10 mins or less on the pitch), so if you were to break down his sub appearances, dividing by 3, in my opinion that gives a better reflection. Just my opinion now! And I'm by far and away not a Forlan fan.

I would agree with you. It can skew the true picture. However, and I don't have the stats on this, I would suspect that Forlan scored as many, if not more, goals when he came on as a sub as opposed to when he actually started a game. Again this is from memory, I don't have the links to back it up.

The Rooster

I assumed PHB made a mistake, and didnt mean his United record, but meant his international record which is (or at least was at one stage) 7 goals in 11 games.

Hobart

The Rooster wrote:

I assumed PHB made a mistake, and didnt mean his United record,

It certainly appears that way.

but meant his international record which is (or at least was at one stage) 7 goals in 11 games.

The Uruguay stat would also lend weight to the premise that while his international scoring career (and his career pre and post Manu) was/is impressive his Manu record is abysmal.

Lemlin

The Rooster wrote:

I assumed PHB made a mistake, and didnt mean his United record, but meant his international record which is (or at least was at one stage) 7 goals in 11 games.

Again, I'll ask, what use is Forlan's international performance to a United supporter? Yes, it's all well and good if he had a good run for Urugary (or however you spell it ) but if he's not performing at all for United, how does that benefit them?

Hobart

Lemlin wrote:

Again, I'll ask, what use is Forlan's international performance to a United supporter? Yes, it's all well and good if he had a good run for Urugary (or however you spell it ) but if he's not performing at all for United, how does that benefit them?

It does'nt. Or did'nt at the time. Iresspective of his international stats, his stats elsewhere are/where highly impressive. and yet in over 3 seasons with Manu he was brutal. He was great before, great after. I will leave you to fill in the gap . He was simply not managed properly and he was not the first and he will not be the last under AF.

The Muppet

Hobart wrote:

yet in over 3 seasons with Manu he was brutal. He was great before, great after. .

He was not totally brutal bart, He had his moments.:D

Hobart

The Muppet wrote:

He was not totally brutal bart, He had his moments.:D

He may have had his moments, but so did Taiibi. He never came even close to his potential at Manu. Other managers have have gotten the absoloute best out of this guy. It is to uniteds and their fans detriment that fergie failed to do the same.

The Muppet

Hobart wrote:

He may have had his moments, but so did Taiibi. He never came even close to his potential at Manu. Other managers have have gotten the absoloute best out of this guy. It is to uniteds and their fans detriment that fergie failed to do the same.

I Though you were a liverpool supporter Bart?

Hobart

The Muppet wrote:

I Though you were a liverpool supporter Bart?

I presume you mean "I Thought"? I don't see what my support has got to do with it tbh. Move along.

The Muppet

Hobart wrote:

I presume you mean "I Thought"? I don't see what my support has got to do with it tbh. Move along.

Ah Maybe you were out of the country.


Google is your friend.

Forlan+liverpool

Add it to the list.;)

Hobart

The Muppet wrote:

Ah Maybe you were out of the country.


Google is your friend.

Forlan+liverpool

Add it to the list.;)

What are you talking about? Forlan scoring a brace against Liverpool? Gifted a goal by Dudek, if memory serves me correctly? This was years ago Muppet. Are you for real? Your acting like a pathetic little spammer, start acting your age FFS :rolleyes: .Once more your lame atempts at flaming are showing you for what you really are. Again, grow the fuvk up.

The Muppet

Hobart wrote:

What are you talking about? Forlan scoring a brace against Liverpool? Gifted a goal by Dudek, if memory serves me correctly? This was years ago Muppet. Are you for real? Your acting like a pathetic little spammer, start acting your age FFS :rolleyes: .Once more your lame atempts at flaming are showing you for what you really are. Again, grow the fuvk up.

Touchy.

I'll happily leave it at that but I doubt you will.

Hobart

The Muppet wrote:

inane drivel and Touchy?? What ever that means. I suspected he is trying to be smart by saying Touché, but as usual, the crap just flies back at him.

Grand, go flame elsewhere muppet.

dirkey_wynne

Hobart wrote:

Grand, go flame elsewhere muppet.

To be honest Hobart, I'd have to agree that you're totally over-reacting here. The little winky face used by The Muppet would lead me to believe he's having a little bit of banter. isn't that what following rival clubs is about? Sheesh.

The Muppet

Hobart wrote:

Originally Posted by The Muppet
inane drivel and Touchy?? What ever that means. I suspected he is trying to be smart by saying Touché, but as usual, the crap just flies back at him.

Grand, go flame elsewhere muppet.

Erm where did you get that quote from that you have attributed to me. I cetainly never posted that. Kindly change it.

Re: Touchy

From Dictionary.com

2 entries found for touchy.

touch·y
adj. touch·i·er, touch·i·est

1. Tending to take offense with slight cause; oversensitive.

Hobart wrote:

I suspected he is trying to be smart by saying Touché, but as usual, the crap just flies back at him.

Oh The Irony.


If I had wanted to say Touché I would have done so.

Hobart

dirkey_wynne wrote:

To be honest Hobart, I'd have to agree that you're totally over-reacting here. The little winky face used by The Muppet would lead me to believe he's having a little bit of banter. isn't that what following rival clubs is about? Sheesh.

I might know a little bit more of his posting history than you Dirkey. The thread seemed to be moving along nicely until he put his usual ill-informed oar in.

He has been warned before about wasting users and admins time, and has a penchant for taking things completely off topic. That's not just my view btw.

The Muppet wrote:

I'll happily leave it at that but I doubt you will.

The Muppet wrote:

Oh The Irony

Indeed :rolleyes: .

therecklessone

Big Nelly wrote:

Definitions of rant:
* harangue: a loud bombastic declamation expressed with strong emotion

:rolleyes:

Big Nelly wrote:

Where? why don't you just grow up. You go around trolling every thread to try and start a load of sh*t? maybe look at yourself. Everytime I see you on any thread it is in an arguement with someone else

Big Nelly wrote:

* bombast: pompous or pretentious talk or writing

:rolleyes:

Big Nelly wrote:

Did you watch the game? you base your judgement of soccer games on what a journo writes? lol....enough said!

Big Nelly wrote:

* talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner

:rolleyes:

Big Nelly wrote:

Are you refering to the quote about everyone being a Utd fan on this thread? if so get a life will you. I was taking the pi*s and God sorry if thats not allowed on here. I'm so sorry. No more crack allowed on board, therecklessesone says so and we all must bow down

Oh yeah where did I throw this accusation? was it from a long distance or was I close up? I can't remember what I do throw around these days. One time I threw a stone so far I couldn't see where it landed. It was a mighty throw

Definition of wound up:

adj : brought to a state of great tension; "all wound up for a
fight"