Wonky Population Spread in Ireland

Transport21 Fan

The CSO site is a goldmine of interesting facts and information - most of all is how crazy Ireland's urban-rural population mix is. Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway are grossly underpopulated...all these cities' metropolitian areas should be about twice the population they currently enjoy...while the countyside in many parts is heavily overpopulated. As things stand railways really cannot be viable at all in Ireland other than commuter services along with the Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork routes. The other rail lines are unsustainable in any real economic sense. How could this situation happen wereby our cities are half-filled and much of our countryside overloaded with more people than it can properly sustain apart from multicar families? Buses serving every single house! Dublin is not overpopulated - it is underpopulated - it is Kildare and Meath which are overpopulated. The rural areas of the West, South West are bursting with people while the towns in the same regions reamins modest in scale...having not grown in size. Some of the CSO's stats suggest that in many villages in the South West up to 40 times the population living outside of villages themselves in the surrounding townlands! Have we passed the point of no return? Very depressing indeed. A rural population explosion, while at the same time the nearby towns and villages remain static or even decline. What is Government policy to address this sad state of affairs?

silverside

Transport21Fan you're waffling on a bit.

What specifically are the problems?

What evidence do you show?

What solutions do you propose?

corktina

it's quite true.Across the water they would not have allowed the ribbon development that has happened here...it is very difficult to see the countryside from the road nowadays as the houses get in the way....too late methinks for a green belt policy here....

irishunion.com

It may be a strategy created and managed by the government (tourism minister) to keep Dublin underpopulated so visitors can find cheaper accomodation and jobs available (low paid). Reasons:

Making the City Work: Low Paid Employment in London
http://www.geog.qmul.ac.uk/globalcities/Report2.pdf

Low-paid foreign help keeps cruise liners afloat - The Honolulu
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2006/Jan/01/bz/FP601010311.html

There are ways to encourage low paid workers to come to Ireland, right?



Now i just hope i will not be kidnapped by the Irish Government or other organisations and sent to "The Island" like Homer Simpson.

www.irishunion.com

professore

I think it should be obvious to everyone. In a nutshell:

silverside wrote:

What specifically are the problems?

Everyone has to drive everywhere. There are no services to support these ribbon development.

silverside wrote:

What evidence do you show?

If you want evidence, go to any new housing estate in a surrounding county of Dublin and walk to the shop/pub or ring up the local school and ask to enroll your 3 kids. Better still, enroll them in one class each at the weekend. You will be driving all day. Now try it in another western european country (except UK where they have the same suburbia disease as we do).

silverside wrote:

What solutions do you propose?

Greater housing density in the cities (HIGH RISE - but mixed private apartments (1 -4 beds and space, not public housing !!!!) and less one off housing - and I grew up in the country!

Maskhadov

Transport21 Fan please use paragraphs.

I agree about the population dentisty thing. Dublin Cork and Galway are way too underpopulated. We need High dentisty High quality accomdation in Dublin and Cork.

spacetweek

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The CSO site is a goldmine of interesting facts and information - most of all is how crazy Ireland's urban-rural population mix is. Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway are grossly underpopulated...all these cities' metropolitian areas should be about twice the population they currently enjoy...while the countyside in many parts is heavily overpopulated. <snip> A rural population explosion, while at the same time the nearby towns and villages remain static or even decline. What is Government policy to address this sad state of affairs?

Transport21Fan, sorry but most of that was B.S. Rural depopulation is a major problem in most of the country. Much of the houses you're seeing are holidays homes.

The problem is that far too much population growth is taking place in the Dublin commuter area. The reason this continues to occur is just because all other areas of the country do not have the critical mass to pull in housing and development - with the just-about-exception of Cork city. If a city isn't at least 100-150k people then it's really just a glorified town. This is the only part you were right about. We need to AT LEAST double all the provincial cities in size. Cork 300k, Limerick, Galway 150k, Sligo, Waterford 100k.

The state of affairs is as follows:
Dublin City: Underpopulated
Dublin Suburbs: Overpopulated (and growing way too fast)
Provincial cities: Underpopulated
Rural areas: Underpopulated

murphaph

spacetweek wrote:

Dublin City: Underpopulated
Dublin Suburbs: Overpopulated (and growing way too fast)
Provincial cities: Underpopulated
Rural areas: Underpopulated

Nah, the top 3 are correct but the countryside is being urbanised at an alarming rate. What you're refering to as "suburban Dublin" now stretches to Louth, Meath, Cavan, Longford, Westmeath, Kildare, Laois, Carlow, Kilkenny, Wickow, and Wexford and een beyond. I personally know two guys in work who commute daily from Offaly and Tipperary to Dublin! They both live in one off houses. I know dozens of people who live in one-off housing in Louth/Meath/Cavan and Kildare and commute to Dublin. The same effect can be seen in the commuter belts around Cork, Limerick and Galway. The countryside is being steadily destroyed with 3000 sq foot ugly monolithic red brick monsters, 'designed' (copied) and built in a manner which is completely unsympathetic to their environment-but the inhabitants don't care so long as there's a big 42" plasma in the corner and a sky dish on the gaff to get the decent telly out in the sticks!

People have opted out of towns and cities in a big way in Ireland. Our 'planning' is a failure.

dr zoidberg

The way the country is planned is ridiculous, development is not being controlled at all. At the very least we should be trying to stick to the Strategic Planning Guidelines and develop the Dublin Metropolitan Area as high-density. It's a large enough area to cater for commuters and future development. The problem really is that the hinterland is being developed as if it was a suburb. This shouldn't happen, development needs to be strictly controlled and should focus on developing hinterland towns as independent entities, while maintaining the green belts.

There is no joined-up thinking, planning applications are dealt with by a local authority which has little interest other than the developer's fees. An Bord Pleanála should be strict and reject any major schemes which contradict the planning strategy, but they don't have the will to do this.

Planning guidelines (on page 6) - note the "strategic green belts", they're really working out.:rolleyes:

NewDubliner

What about 'Parlon Country'?

mike65

While I agree about the general point how do you plan to make it happen? Massed internal migration at the point of a gun!?

Even if the government and its agencies actually did the right thing they'd proberly get taken to the Supreme court then Europe for impinging on an 'Irishmans right to live wherever he fancies'

Mike.

dr zoidberg

Well they can't move people from where they are now, but they can stop the flow before it gets out of hand by drastically cutting down on the number of planning applications for housing estates in the hinterland being approved, and by tying in residential planning with industrial development in the regional towns (which are supposed to be "National Growth Centres" and not commuter towns).

Decent planning doesn't run contrary to the EU principles of freedom of movement, in the Netherlands for example their polders (where the land was reclaimed from the sea) have been well-planned and designed with large high-density urban areas acting as overspill towns to the major cities alongside a green belt which is strictly protected and agricultural. Although it's one thing making a new settlement from scratch, fixing a mess is a lot harder.

Maskhadov

I think the fact that the government allowed one off housing to go ahead again was a knife in the back for proper planning. We have to move away from our thatched white washed cottage view of living and accept that were going to have to live in towns and cities now.

Those holiday homes are blights on the countryside and its time we put an end to it.

corktina

holiday homes must be a very very very small percentage of the houses in the countryside....I live in a rural area and cant think of even ONE house anywhere within 10 miles that is a holiday home....maybe near the sea there are more......

John R

mike65 wrote:

While I agree about the general point how do you plan to make it happen? Massed internal migration at the point of a gun!?

Even if the government and its agencies actually did the right thing they'd proberly get taken to the Supreme court then Europe for impinging on an 'Irishmans right to live wherever he fancies'

The problem is that they haven't stopped the one-off housing development. Certain counties have very strict regulations making it very difficult for new houses to get approval while others allow almost anything.

murphaph

John R wrote:

The problem is that they haven't stopped the one-off housing development. Certain counties have very strict regulations making it very difficult for new houses to get approval while others allow almost anything.

Exactly, we're not gonna liquidate the population of rural (one off) Ireland. Places like Clare, Mayo, Cavan and Sligo should be ashamed of themselves, while Fingal, Wicklow and Meath have displayed a much better attitude towards rural one off housing in recent years. It is virtually impossible to build a one off house in Fingal nowadays but in Clare the Co Co is still being reprimanded by the NRA for allowing one off housing be built fronting onto national primary routes. It's like day and night and yet these gombeens in Clare will still demand their slice of the infrastructural cake.

dowlingm

Cork was looking promising for a while - the city fathers responded to the fall (!) in population in the city centre by encouraging "live over the shop" and so on, but then this happened and the council started running scared of "them terrible tall buildings". God only knows what they'd think of this then.

MorningStar

spacetweek wrote:

The state of affairs is as follows:
Dublin City: Underpopulated
Dublin Suburbs: Overpopulated (and growing way too fast)
Provincial cities: Underpopulated
Rural areas: Underpopulated

Sorry what is the proof for this?
Dublin Suburbs I would say are grossly underpopulated. The building of suburbs is the increase of dwelling but not population. A ton of 3 bed semis with 2 or 3 people in each one. When I grew up it was 5-6 people in such houses. The older areas that FTBs can't buy only have old couples in them. A lot of the older suburbs in Dublin are grossly undepopulated.

High rises is not the only way to go. Schemes to get retired people to housing more suitable for their aging requirement to free up well serviced and central properties. As not everybody would take up a scheme you would end up with more age diversification. The idea would that you would get a better use of housing stock and maybe help people boost pensions.

The nimbys don't want high rise. There is actually over 250 appartments to be built within half a mile of me. Lots of people complaining. Considering the first block in the area was never finished by the developer and council did nothing people have reason to complain. Bad organisation and managment at this level is not helping

Benster

Er, am I missing something? Is the reason the cities like Dublin and Galway etc are underpopulated for their size not because it is TOO BLOODY DEAR for people to buy houses/apartments there?

Add to that the bad building design of many apartments and estates, why would you want to spend €400k in the city if you get much more for your money 45 mins up the road?

Myself and my gf had an apartment in Dublin for a few years and couldn't wait to get out - crap living space, crap neighbours, crap city. We moved to an estate in Meath - nice area, nice house, nice neighbours, nice garden, nice fields near us too. And all that for only slightly more than what we were paying for the apartment.

My point is, do property prices not have a hell of a lot to do with it as well?

B.

MorningStar

Benster wrote:

Er, am I missing something? Is the reason the cities like Dublin and Galway etc are underpopulated for their size not because it is TOO BLOODY DEAR for people to buy houses/apartments there?

My point is, do property prices not have a hell of a lot to do with it as well?

B.

The big point is the cities are spread out because people prefer to have their 3 bed instead of the appartement. The price is the issue in a way as the 3 bed semi estates that were allowed to be be built with tax incentives. By allowing the population to spread out matters are worse for everyone yet some people think they are better.

A weak government policy and a strong public opinion caused the housing situation. The lovely estate you live out from the major employment centres will be ghost towns in years to come. People simply will not be willing to spend 4-5 hours commuting let alone be able to afford the higher fuel prices. Some people think public transport should be provided yet as noted the massive spread of the population means that is not viable. Where does that leave people? They will have to sell and move closer to work. This has happened in other countries sometime the government act quickly enough to plan for this by decentralising private businesses into areas outside the cities. I don't see that happening here.

The problem is two fold, the government forced the planning people to allow house building and gave tax breaks to do so. The people also wanted a certain type of houses.

Everybody has fault on this.

Transport21 Fan

A weak government policy and a strong public opinion caused the housing situation.

Yes there is no doubt about this and these same people desire to live in the country in one off houses is also the main issue with our transport crises as well...and as you said the problem is two fold, Government inaction and a cultural mindset regarding personalised ussutainable living and home ownership choices. Many of the people who are complaing about the terrible 3 hour daily commute to work in Dublin already had houses in the city.

I was talking to a builder who builds one-off houses in rural Cavan and he cannot keep up with the demand for new homes despite trebling the size of his company in the last 2 years. Most of his clients are are not buying holiday homes, but are intending to commute on the M3 into Dublin in a couple of years. The average sale price of these houses is about 300,000 Euro. These are also the same people who will complain about road tolls and stressful commutes destroying their home life but in just about every case they chose this option themselves.

Here in Sligo there are no holiday homes as such. Most of these houses have families living in them and one of my neighbours has five cars in the front yard and this is not untypical either. The Government go on about "a vibrant countryside" but this carry on is actually killing it. People from all over Ireland are moving to all parts of rural Ireland and only see their neighbours via driving past them in darkness.

The transport issues being held up as a solution to this such as the Western Rail Corridor are pure crackpot as these one off houses are located alongside remote roads miles and miles from stations. There may well be a sound argument that opening the WRC may help create cluster populations who will commute by rail - but this is only possible if the WRC has high-frequency fast rail services coupled with full integration with local bus lines. But as anybody with an ounce of intelligence will tell you, CIE are pathologically incapable of operating meaningful public transport (look at how long it took them to get a Shuttle bus to Kent Station) so this is not going to happen and the money set aside for this project will be mostly wasted when it could have been put to real use developing commuter rail services in Limerick or Light Rail for Cork.

Meanwhile Sligo County Council who are demanding the Western Rail Corridor serve them as part of their fantasy social justice victim complex have gleefully allowed people to build one off houses with access roads crossing the rail line as late are 2002. But now they want this "vital rail line" reopened which they have been perfectly happy to pave and tarmac over right up until this morning. While at the same time claiming that Dublin is denying them "their railway".

But if you really want to be depressed take a flight over Clare and look at the worlds largest suburb. Thousands and thousands of new houses and most of them no closer than 1000M between them.

Our coutryside has been truly destroyed and our cities all robbed of their potential. If a lobby group was starting up to promote integrated mass transit coupled with strategic land usages I would join in the morning. Something has to be done - not everybody reads Frank McDonald. There is a need for real education.

MorningStar

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Yes there is no doubt about this and these same people desire to live in the country in one off houses is also the main issue with our transport crises as well...and as you said the problem is two fold, Government inaction and a cultural mindset regarding personalised ussutainable living and home ownership choices. Many of the people who are complaing about the terrible 3 hour daily commute to work in Dublin already had houses in the city.

I really don't think one off hosuing is the issue. It is a contributing factor and a bigger issue in more remote areas. Under populated areas in city terms is our heavy reliance on houses.

Our building standards are poor so appartments are getting a bad name.

It is a little too much to expect Ireland to sudden do appartment living and compare with other countries that had such living for up to 1000 years such as Rome or even 200 like in Paris.

What people should realise is they are responsible for their own choices and not expect the government to save them

dowlingm

Anybody who fancies it - sell your gaff in Ireland for 300k and up (even clearing 25pc for a downpayment on the next) and you will get a very nice pad in Toronto for the equivalent. I am shocked by what is being demanded in Ireland even since I left in 2003.

Metrobest

I like looking at the panoramic view of Dublin when approaching the airport from a plane as it gives a grim picture of suburban life. Acres and acres on concrete; housing estate after housing estate like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle and tiny ant-like cars inching along traffic-choked roads.

Contrast this with the approach into Rotterdam, for example; although the population density is far higher, instead of hectares of surface car parking and shopping malls there is much more green space and public spaces for people to enjoy.

MorningStar

Metrobest wrote:

Contrast this with the approach into Rotterdam, for example; although the population density is far higher, instead of hectares of surface car parking and shopping malls there is much more green space and public spaces for people to enjoy.

But look at a city like Rome, Paris or London. It is easily possible to live in a city that has lots of buildings etc...

THe density is the problem not the lack of green spaces. Not that I am saying what is there should be removed and built on.

The government is in a tough position. If they stop house building and force higher density the local communities get angry along with the people who want to buy new houses. They know what neeeds to be done but people don't like it.

Decentralisation was one of the attempts to help but will have to fail due to bad plan.

Transport21 Fan

It is a little too much to expect Ireland to sudden do appartment living and compare with other countries that had such living for up to 1000 years such as Rome or even 200 like in Paris.

The urban Irish were an apartment people up until the 1930's ranging from living over shops, to basements to tenement slums. Living over a shop in a flat was the norm for most middle class people in Dublin, Cork and Limerick - same in just about every other town in the country.

One of the first acts of the original Free State Government was to begin a major public apartment building programme for Dublin and brought in top Dutch public housing desigers to make this happen and it worked very well. Mercer House and the other 1920 apartments have stood the test of time very well. They are almost devoid of major social depravation to the ponit were most people pass these apartment complexs without thinking twice about their personal safety in the same way they would be nervous walking through low density Neilstown across them miserable, pointless and bleak green grass spaces which started in Ballyfermot and Cabra West in the late 1940's and spread like a cancer through West Dublin, North Cork and beyond for the next 50 years. You never see burnt out cars in Mercer House and yet these are corpo apartments.

The "Bull McCabe" culture of the "land" was a rural mindset which was imposed on Urban Ireland with the arrivial of Mad Dev when homeowership in Ireland was transformed into "looking for a site". If you look at the start of the low density sprawl in Ireland it began in the late 30's and early 40's with the migration of the rural civil service employees following the creation of the Republic under Dev. That's when "looking for a site" culture was transposed onto Drumcondra, Artane, Sandymount etc...

This is when the mess we have now began. Irish's cities and towns must reject this artificial Bull McCabe psychosis and once again embrace true urban living. Look at the populations of some of the Irish towns before the Famine there were huge in comparision to the 20th Century.

We have to stop turning the countryside into Drumcondra and start turning all the towns and cities into a model which is more compatible with their original nature before the "strong rural bias" as Dev said when addressing the Irish nation upon the announcement of the constitution.

Dev and what he stood for really was a nightmare and we are still trying to wake up from.

MorningStar

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The urban Irish were an apartment people up until the 1930's ranging from living over shops, to basements to tenement slums. Living over a shop in a flat was the norm for most middle class people in Dublin, Cork and Limerick - same in just about every other town in the country.

Note that this was not succesful living and wasn't working. The people were living in converted buildings not purpose built. Rome and PAris had purpose built housing for well over 100 prior to this. THe building the Irish lived in in the cities were designed for single family yet housed 3 and four families and the big georgian houses were housing a family per room. SOme property in Dublin is till like this.

Very few of the state appartment living worked in the long term. THey are still trying to fix some of it. Go down Sean McDermot Street and look.

THe other "corpo" estates like Cabra were funded by the Jesuits due to the dangers of "shared halls" as the put it.

It is fair to say the culture of home ownership was promoted by the government of the time. This was not unique to Ireland but it's purpose here was to make people responsible.

Drumcondra is very rural as a layout in Dublin terms (and most cities I would say) so if it was like that all around it wouldn't be bad at all. The fear of turning the countryside into suburbia has got some merrit but urban has every reason to survive and thrive also. Good planning is needed not absense of growth. In many people's eyes the modern farming methods are destructive to the landscape and nature.

Lets keep it based on what is actually sustainable and reasonable not about what is being lost in terms of progress. The country will always be messed with. There are several large areas of Dublin not developed or likely ever to be the should surfice but I would like some proper planning for the areas that do get changed. Clontarf golf course is a big concern as it such a large space. If they put in housing and low density dwellings it would be a terrible waste.

gobdaw

MorningStar wrote:

I really don't think one off hosuing is the issue. It is a contributing factor and a bigger issue in more remote areas. Under populated areas in city terms is our heavy reliance on houses.


What people should realise is they are responsible for their own choices and not expect the government to save them

Did I not see a statistic from An Taisce (?) to the effect that 40/45% of planning applications are for one off houses. Thats a lot of sprall.

People are not making these choices, but individuals, with Minister O'Cuive legislating for one offs. This makes "peoples" choices more difficult to impliment. It also does nothing for the appeal of rural tourism in Ireland, but that's another matter, nor for transport, health, stress, childcare, care of elderly, family life- the list is endless.

MorningStar

gobdaw wrote:

Did I not see a statistic from An Taisce (?) to the effect that 40/45% of planning applications are for one off houses. Thats a lot of sprall.

People are not making these choices, but individuals, with Minister O'Cuive legislating for one offs. This makes "peoples" choices more difficult to impliment. It also does nothing for the appeal of rural tourism in Ireland, but that's another matter, nor for transport, health, stress, childcare, care of elderly, family life- the list is endless.

You did but what you have to understand they are not getting planning they are applying. And if I have to apply for planing on my house in an estate that is one off housing planning application. A house on a corner site in an estate is one off housing.

The original report is about low density in the urban environments. There are very few one off hoses causing problems in urban environments. One off housing in a rural area doesn't effect much in the urban environment actual by definition it is really impossible for one of housing in Urban environments

The government preventing further problems and restricting housing development of one problem. People don't get to choose everything but when they choose to live in a house in a "nicer area", "bigger house" and "better value" and commute 3 hours a day. Then complain about the commute time, roads, petrol prices, lack of local facilities etc.. they are responsible and expecting the government to sort it out is a bit much.
One off housing is a huge issue in rural councils that wanted it over the planning authority becasue people didn't like the thought of not being able to make big money off selling a small bit of their farm. That is the reverse of nimbys

Victor

High density does not mean high rise. 3 storey terraced houses are plenty dense.

Ballymun (1960s) was a low density development with high rise buildings in a parkland setting. With generally lower buildings they ar enow increasing density.

1huge1

spacetweek wrote:

Transport21Fan, sorry but most of that was B.S. Rural depopulation is a major problem in most of the country. Much of the houses you're seeing are holidays homes.

The problem is that far too much population growth is taking place in the Dublin commuter area. The reason this continues to occur is just because all other areas of the country do not have the critical mass to pull in housing and development - with the just-about-exception of Cork city. If a city isn't at least 100-150k people then it's really just a glorified town. This is the only part you were right about. We need to AT LEAST double all the provincial cities in size. Cork 300k, Limerick, Galway 150k, Sligo, Waterford 100k.

The state of affairs is as follows:
Dublin City: Underpopulated
Dublin Suburbs: Overpopulated (and growing way too fast)
Provincial cities: Underpopulated
Rural areas: Underpopulated

i know this is totalyl besides the point but are you saying that theres 150,000 people in galway because its more like 75,000 and 135,000 in limerick
of course theres a lot more in the surrounding areas

first ive heard anyone saying dublin is underpopulated before
good topic

spacetweek

1huge1 wrote:

i know this is totalyl besides the point but are you saying that theres 150,000 people in galway because its more like 75,000 and 135,000 in limerick

I'm saying Galway SHOULD be about 150k.
As should limerick, which is currently around 80k.

1huge1 wrote:

first ive heard anyone saying dublin is underpopulated before
good topic

Underpopulated... maybe I should have said too low-density. That's what's wrong.

Transport21 Fan

spacetweek wrote:

I'm saying Galway SHOULD be about 150k.
As should limerick, which is currently around 80k.

200K for Cork, Limerick and Galway each and that whole regional imbalance would be solved. As it stands, if one-off houses of the last 5 years had of been built in these cities we would be well on our way to getting serious population distrubution and the huge benefits which would come to rail transport.

Look at Clare and West Limerick alone. Them gazillion pink mansions were in built instead in say Sixmilebridge and Raheen we would be talk a DART type rail system for Limerick.

1huge1

spacetweek wrote:

I'm saying Galway SHOULD be about 150k.
As should limerick, which is currently around 80k.

Underpopulated... maybe I should have said too low-density. That's what's wrong.

the 80k in limerick is only the cencus (which only covers a bit of limerick city) does not include big places like castletroy which has 25k by itself

Benster

So then what's the solution, folks?

How do you influence people to ditch their "I want a nice house with a nice garden" attitudes and get them to live in higher-density housing?

[When you say "higher density" what is that exactly, apartments or less high density estates full of semi-d's? ]

As I described above, I lived in an apartment, now I live in a house and I doubt I would ever go back. Perhaps if it was one mother of an apartment with all the space I could desire etc, etc, but then in this country that would be priced out of the range of most mere mortals.

Do the social reasons have to be tackled? (like: "I want my kids to grow up out of the city")
Or is it the economic reasons? (like: "I can afford so much more out of the city")

I know myself that it's a balance of both, but which in your view should take priority?

dts

You would have to agree that urban living is for single people not for families. I would assume by the way you are all talking that you dont have kids to worry about. If you did then you would see why people are willing to do the 1,2 or even 3 hour commute. Its not all about you, if the wife has her mothers group of friends and the kids can play out safe then thats what its all about. If you have a new baby the last thing you want is the person next door in your semi or flat playing loud music and smoking drugs with there friends. After living in a semi in Lucan for three months there is no way I would go back to that.

mysterious

spacetweek wrote:

I'm saying Galway SHOULD be about 150k.
As should limerick, which is currently around 80k.

Underpopulated... maybe I should have said too low-density. That's what's wrong.

:rolleyes: You even got the "official population of 2002 wrong" its 86998
and there is places like Annacotty'lisnagry and Parteen (few examples that is literally in the the actual "boundary" that is not even included in the official suburb+city boundary, a joke really.

Even now today you still think Limerick is 80,000 it was 80,000 almost by statistics back in 1996!!! the County council dev. plan said the population incl alll suburbs is over 100,000 not to mention the surrounding areas.


This will end all arguements, "with me saying" Limerick Like no other city in the country covers Three counties, so it will never be defined.

MorningStar

Benster wrote:

Do the social reasons have to be tackled? (like: "I want my kids to grow up out of the city")
Or is it the economic reasons? (like: "I can afford so much more out of the city")

I know myself that it's a balance of both, but which in your view should take priority?

Simple don't allow the property to build as is, Cut tax incentives and remove the stamp duty exemption for new builds of this style.

Increase the building regs to appartment to improve standards.

Make stamp duty a rolling fund, in total you only pay stamp duty on the most expensive house you buy eg. pay €5k on your first property and the next would noramlly be €15k instead you only pay €10k as you are given credit for the first purchase. THis means that property would be sold easier once you get on the ladder freeing up existing houseing stock.

Give retirement incentive plans where older retired people can sell their home and boast pensions. That frees up thie houses and hopefully gets them a more purpose built property. Retirement property can be mixed in with future housing plans.

Bring in congestion charges to Dublin to prevent it being viable to travel daily back and forth into Dublin long distance.

Compulisirory purchases and zone lands that are strategic to urban growth.

Not all at the same time but they are possible with some being easier than others

Transport21 Fan

The taxation system would probably be the most feasable means to address this major socio-economic problem Ireland we have and the unsustainable timebomb it is creating.

Just make it more worthwhile for people to live in towns and cities and more expensive to live in ribbon developments and one-offs in the countryside. It would have to be from this point going forward.

Another thing, in the small town I live in Sligo there are loads of derelict properties in the town, especially off the main streets (like many towns around Ireland), meanwhile hundreds of houses are being built outside the town beyond walking distance. Maybe the Government should considered CPO on these abandoned building, restore them and rent them out as public housing? This would lead to a more balanced, socio-ecnomic mix as well such as you see in Europe.

Conversly the same approach could be applied in the vast suburbs housing schemes of the 1970's and 80's and CPO all the vast grassy areas these estates have which are only good for burnt out car dumping and creating a sense of exposed bleakness and cold. Offer tax breaks to developers to build private rental and commercial accomadation on them. This has already happened in limited parts of Tallaght to a certain extent and the transformation was fairly spectacular in a short time. The whole visual nature of the areas changed - the blandness and bleakness was suddenly dimished.

Walking down the Tallaght by-Pass just past the Square used to be so bleak and sinsiter with nothing on one side and massixe traffic on the other - now it is far more humanistic since the grass wastelands were develped with buildings of varied designs and styles to break up the sameness of the semi-detachted vista. There are so many benfits to clustering these kind of areas that it is a win-win situation for ll except the our serial Irish NIMBYs who would complain about the weight if you gave them a bag of gold for free.

Getting out cities to reach their potential and our countryside saved from ruination really only takes a Government with a bit of guts and imagination.

Transport21 Fan

But Dubin City is indeed grossly underpopulated.

Just because former IFA chairman John Dillion stated "literally" that Dublin was in danger of toppling into the sea from overpopulation, while this sinister vested interest and rural tourism obliterating monstrosity of an organisation was lobbying the Goverment to relax planning restrictions on one off housing does not mean this is a fact.

Calina

Transport21 Fan wrote:

But Dubin City is indeed grossly underpopulated.

Are you talking about semantics, the difference between Dublin City and Dublin County, plus parts of Wicklow, Meath and even Kildare? Because the Greater Dublin Area has a disproportionately high population compared the the rest of the country. I don't think it's long term viable to have up to one third of the population living in a single urban area, regardless of whether it is in high density or low density accommodation.

Aidan1

don't think it's long term viable to have up to one third of the population living in a single urban area, regardless of whether it is in high density or low density accommodation.

Why not?

MorningStar

Calina wrote:

Are you talking about semantics, the difference between Dublin City and Dublin County, plus parts of Wicklow, Meath and even Kildare? Because the Greater Dublin Area has a disproportionately high population compared the the rest of the country. I don't think it's long term viable to have up to one third of the population living in a single urban area, regardless of whether it is in high density or low density accommodation.

Dublin City and county are easily noticable different. Kildare and Meath are also noticable different. Just becasue they are part of the commuter belt deosn't make it one urban area. It may be disproportional but that does not mean underpopulated. As we can increase the population using curent housing it is indeed very viable. To expect sudden advancement of infastructure and businesses out of Dublin is not viable

ishmael whale

dts wrote:

You would have to agree that urban living is for single people not for families.

To be honest, its actually the other way around. In an urban area you have more facilities, more activities your child can get involve with and other children to befriend. On the other hand, living in one off-housing brings a risk of isolation for the children - despite the illusion that living in the countryside makes you part of some idyllic community.

I think the reality of life in one-off housing is well communcated in this article 'One-off Housing Killed My Cat':

http://www.castlebar.ie/news/columns/markwaters/mw_oneoff_08.shtml
... Hours of our life were squandered travelling to and from school, to the sports clubs, swimming pool, and the houses of friends and, later on, to and from discos and pubs. ... And the road itself was like a knife cutting through the heart of the community. It was so dangerous that you were taking your life into your own hands if you dared to visit your neighbour. So we didn't. We retreated into our castles, and to our televisions, barely connected to the world by our cars - the very things that were imprisoning us in our homes.
.... A community of one-off houses has a serious disadvantage before it even starts out on the road to viability, sustainability and growth. Services cost more money and offer a poorer quality than they do in co-ordinated developments. Scarce resources are spread ever thinner across the landscape. The potential for economic development is limited. Everyone is pulling against everyone else instead of in the same direction. ....

There's another useful discussion here on archiseek.com, for anyone interested. http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4554

Transport21 Fan

On the other hand, living in one off-housing brings a risk of isolation for the children

This might also explain the massive suicide rates among rural teenagers compared to their urban counterparts.

Children in rural Ireland are more likely to be killed hit by a car, than to be approched by a drug dealer in urban Ireland. Children in rural Ireland are several thousands times more likely to be seriously injured or killed in their parent's car being driven the vast distances to school, than being moslested, kidnapped or injected with drugs walking to school alone in urban Ireland. Teenagers in rural Ireland are far more likely to be slaughtered on rural roads going on a night out, than teenager kids in urban Ireland will be affected by drug or gang violence taking public transport to social events.

A one-off house in the country is perhaps the most disadvantage place a child can be raised in modern Ireland and as a result the parents of these children are put under incredible pressure trying to give their one-off children a life that if the same kids lived in a city or town would be just outside their front door for free.

In years to come the one-off housing culture will be looked back upon as as much of a cultural, economic and social disaster which Dev's economic policies in the past are now viewed. Moving children into one-off houses only reduces their mortality odds and leads to breakdowns of families due to long commutes and social isolation.

In short, the rural one off house is the society terminator. The people who are buying into it believing their children will be better off are marching into a wasted life behind the wheel of a car. It's all a con.

1huge1

mysterious wrote:

:rolleyes: You even got the "official population of 2002 wrong" its 86998
and there is places like Annacotty'lisnagry and Parteen (few examples that is literally in the the actual "boundary" that is not even included in the official suburb+city boundary, a joke really.

Even now today you still think Limerick is 80,000 it was 80,000 almost by statistics back in 1996!!! the County council dev. plan said the population incl alll suburbs is over 100,000 not to mention the surrounding areas.


This will end all arguements, "with me saying" Limerick Like no other city in the country covers Three counties, so it will never be defined.

exactly what i was trying to say but you got the point across a lot better lol

westtip

corktina wrote:

holiday homes must be a very very very small percentage of the houses in the countryside....I live in a rural area and cant think of even ONE house anywhere within 10 miles that is a holiday home....maybe near the sea there are more......

Very much depends were you live - take Enniscrone for example in Sligo - this place has been ruined by the holiday home blight - and Sligo Coco continue to give planning permission for more developments in the town environs; and the only reason is of course money.

Here's the theory. County Councils love to see new houses being built - even if there is a huge over supply of the holiday home category because they get a contribution from builders to the Council coffers for development funds - In Enniscrone you would not believe what Sligo Co Co have approved in the past year - mainly because of the rush by developers to provide the town with more holiday homes and squeeze the last vestige out of the disastrous tax incentive schemes which have blighted the West of Ireland and on the East coast places like Cortown. It is an abosolute disgrace what has gone on

dowlingm

mysterious wrote:

This will end all arguements, "with me saying" Limerick Like no other city in the country covers Three counties, so it will never be defined.

So... not like Waterford then? (Waterford City/County/Kilkenny)

mysterious

dowlingm wrote:

So... not like Waterford then? (Waterford City/County/Kilkenny)

Not so spot on there , 2 counties, "ehh hem"

Otherwise if you want, as you state city boundary inclusive to the Waterford area

Limerick county, Clare county, Tipp county and Limerick city boundary thats 4 for Waterfords 3 then, :rolleyes: Limerick city boundary is even smaller than the Waterford city boundary too.
Anyways I don't see the point in comparing Limerick to other cities of Ireland, Limerick boundary issues is just crazy, full stop.

dowlingm

mysterious

Waterford City is a borough and therefore an administrative county, and I bet parts of the city are now encroaching on Wexford too?

mysterious

dowlingm wrote:

mysterious

Waterford City is a borough and therefore an administrative county, and I bet parts of the city are now encroaching on Wexford too?

Where's your evidence to your comment on Wexford, Surely the Geography explains some limitations :rolleyes:

Who is arguing your comment on Waterford being an administrative county ?
My point was how many counties the Limerick sprawl into ,

You came up with a comparison i e Waterford, but why would you mention the city itself, it does not sprawl into itself, lets get a bit logic here :rolleyes: