Hell - and its purpose

thetourist

Hell is that terrible place where the sinner is consciously punished eternally for his offences against God.

this is a very misunderstood subject

i havent read the entire thread so apologies if i am repeating something already clarified but hell was not created for sinners - that would be stupid, sinners were never the problem - the problem was always evil and the source of it - the devil, satan or whatever you want to refer to him as.
Hell was created to permenantly do away with evil. The problem with sinners is that we ( sinners ) are typicaly rather attached to evil and bad things - and so when the devil's time comes to be destroyed, guess who is going to be traveling along with him ... sinners. In the christian bible it is very clear that this is not god's will and that is why he sent his son so that all who believe in him would be saved.
So to clarify then hell was created as a means of destroying (or containing or whatever ) evil and the popular notion that god wants to send sinners to hell couldnt be further from the truth; however unfortunatly sinners will go there when the time comes if they dont seperate themselves from the evil in the world beforehand.

This what the (christian) bible teaches - i have no idea what any of the other religions say about this

turbot

To call someone ignorant, stupid and mindless is a huge insult. Which is what came across on your posts. My conclusion is that if it is how you feel about my intelligence in general then really is their any point in responding to any questions that you have to ask?

Well if you think this, then why, in your first response to my perspective, did you say:

Turbot, your thinking matches that of the world, so the same could be said of yourself, that you are following the world like a sheep and not thinking for yourself?

Can you acknowledge you are guilty of what you accuse me of, in making this statement?



Maybe you find me calling you ignorant an insult because you have a problem with realising there is much you don't know, and therefore much you are ignorant about. I'm comfortable with this awareness, yet I suspect your are uncomfortable.

From my subjective point of view, this is particularly evident, when you demonstrate no understanding of zen, such that you say I believe in zen. In (Subjectively) understanding what Zen is about, your statement doesn't make sense, and shows you completely misunderstand zen.

I have had disagreements with both Robin and Atheist on this board adn no where do insults fly like you have sent. However, I feel that they have been respectfully received (not to leave you out Asia). My views have not been respectfully received therefore I see no reason to respond.

I don't think your view point enables you to respect other peoples belief systems, because you are overly sure you are right. I think this is a fundamentally disrespectful epistemology, based upon ignorance of your own thought processes.

Furthermore, I posted detailed answers to many of your questions. So if I passionately believe in how I understand the world, with the same fervor you express, is it not more disrepectful to allow you to continute to behave ignorantly, when I honestly feel like I have awarenesses, that if you had them also, would enable you to live with more freedom?

Right at the beginning of this debate you said:

That your viewpoint match those seen in popular media, government institutions and others hostile to Christianity and the church. Whatever views we come up with they are influenced by others in some way shape or form. The question is can you back up your belief system or not?

And I have to gone to significant lengths to back up my belief system, and I have openly expressed my reasoning why, in my opinion and based upon what I have experienced and know, your lack of awareness of your thoughtprocesses lends you to behaving ignorantly, stupidly and even oppressively. These are intended as descriptions, not insults. If I wanted to insult you, I'd pick far more amusing jibes... which I have not. If you are insulted by my statements, please realise my intention is to highlight your lack of awareness of your own thought processes.

If you want to know how I help and heal people, gladly...

As a professionally qualified hypnotist, amongst other things, I've helped people overcome all kinds of fears, phobias, limiting behaviours and deal with a variety of "spiritual" challenges, ranging from helping people who felt like they were being affected by black magick to advising people who were developed skills in various forms of energy-healing. I have gotten very good results with many people in many situations, and some people attribute the work I've done to have played a very significant factor in completely changing their life for the better.

Do you find it insulting when I ask:

"Are you clairvoyant enough to talk to God yourself, and ask him directly? "

So I state my point again. You haven't put sufficient time and energy into understanding and becoming usefully aware of the part your own thought processes play in governing what you think is real, and what constitutes your truth.

I'm not the only one saying this to you Brian; so is AsiaProd:

So far we have seen from you a lack of compassion, disrespect for beliefs of others, ignorance of other belief systems. and to cap it all, ignorance of your OWN belief system....... snip.... do have problems when the zeal with which any ideal is opinionated crosses the boundary line of respect for the ideas and beliefs of others.

As is Bluewolf:

Your truth. Not THE truth.

As is The Athiest:

There are a thousand points of view on every issue, and to assume that you hold the only correct stance is, well, you-know-what...

You don't seem to get that I'm not arguing with your perspective... I fully believe you believe what you are saying. I'm attempting to highlight that based upon how you've formed these beliefs, you haven't become aware of the process of how people form beliefs. At one elevation, God is an idea in your head.

And I even said:

"Brian, you obviously passionately believe you are right, and I guess that you live with decency. How about this; I'd really enjoy to hear what you have to say about some of Robert Anton Wilsons books; specifically "The Widows Son". I suspect you'd find it enlightening, to say the least, though it might shake up your belief systems (And teach you about them in the process)."

And offered to pay for it, if you didn't think it was worthwhile enough to warrant your use of time. Provided you read it once, if you want me to, I'll pay for it.

How is this insulting? Surely this is both generous and compassionate to offer to (subsidise) your learning about things I perceive you don't have any awareness of?

I suspect that this offer challenged you because, accepting that you might not be completely right is a big step.... I suspect this is the same reason why you don't want to continue debating me, because you find my strongly contended view points uncomfortable, because at some level, they challenge you. My purpose is to help you become wiser, not insult you.

40crush41

gumboots wrote:

this is a very misunderstood subject

i havent read the entire thread so apologies if i am repeating something already clarified but hell was not created for sinners - that would be stupid, sinners were never the problem - the problem was always evil and the source of it - the devil, satan or whatever you want to refer to him as.
Hell was created to permenantly do away with evil. The problem with sinners is that we ( sinners ) are typicaly rather attached to evil and bad things - and so when the devil's time comes to be destroyed, guess who is going to be traveling along with him ... sinners. In the christian bible it is very clear that this is not god's will and that is why he sent his son so that all who believe in him would be saved.
So to clarify then hell was created as a means of destroying (or containing or whatever ) evil and the popular notion that god wants to send sinners to hell couldnt be further from the truth; however unfortunatly sinners will go there when the time comes if they dont seperate themselves from the evil in the world beforehand.

This what the (christian) bible teaches - i have no idea what any of the other religions say about this

That makes sense, it sounds familiar b/c I remember liking this explanation...
Thanks for a nice clear post

40crush41

BrianCalgary wrote:

We were discussing war in Sunday School class and came to the conclusion that violence for a defensive reason is OK, to take the initiative and attack, not good. How, for example, can you not justify the invasion of France by allied troops in WW2? Protect your homes form attackers, it's OK.

Thanks Brian,
I'm taking my class on Ethics soon so I'm sure we would cover stuff like this In one more week I'll be on the road to becomming an expert haha

hairyheretic

40crush41 wrote:

I take the most important doctors in the hospital and hold them hostage until they fork up the medication?
Or maybe start selling the apples from my apple tree for money..
I know, I'd rob a bank knowing that I'm doing something wrong, but comforted in the idea that it is for a better good .. for money is only money.
Then on the other hand, we might have to just accept that we are mortal and nothing we do will stop death.


Still though, this doesn't prove that stealing is right.. isn't it still wrong?

There is no right or wrong answer. There's only your own answer. The questions is one a friend gave me when we were having an online discussion on right and wrong, morality and ethics.

There are times that people will do what can objectively be considered wrong, if they feel it serves a higher purpose. Stealing is wrong, but if you steal to save a life, what then?

40crush41 wrote:

I have a good one though that I can't answer. I'll think about it more, but I know that this is one tough hypothetical question.
I have some little cousins who are some of my favorite people on earth. 4, 2, and almost 1, so they are innocent and defenseless. Now, if a serial killer came into the house while I was watching them, gun in hand and threatened to kill us... if I were given the opportunity to, would I kill him?
I know that I would, I'd have to, to even think about someone threatening those kids... *squinty eyes*

In that position, I would probably do the same. Given the choice I would try to immobilise or incapacitate an attacker, but if i didn't think I could do that, then I would kill.

Violence is by its own anture wrong, but sometimes its the least bad choice.

Asiaprod

40crush41 wrote:

I have a good one though that I can't answer. I'll think about it more, but I know that this is one tough hypothetical question.
I have some little cousins who are some of my favorite people on earth. 4, 2, and almost 1, so they are innocent and defenseless. Now, if a serial killer came into the house while I was watching them, gun in hand and threatened to kill us... if I were given the opportunity to, would I kill him?
I know that I would, I'd have to, to even think about someone threatening those kids... *squinty eyes*

No crush, this is an easy one, according to your own belief system you are duty bound to protect the innocent. Shoot.
According to my belief, the same applies. I will shoot.

The only question is, shoot to kill, shoot to incapacitate. Since I have never fired a gun I would probably miss killing the person anyway:o , but rest assured I would shoot, the stakes in your senario are to high to screw up. As a serial killer this person has already gone beyond the law, is now a danger to society, and he is history.

CodeMonkey

40crush41 wrote:

Still though, this doesn't prove that stealing is right.. isn't it still wrong?

Is it wrong to steal? Yes because I've been brought up to think this way. As an adult I also see the benefits of outlawing this activity so I don't question it. I don't really see it as "wrong" as such but illegal. I can imagine some circumstances where it would be acceptable or even right to steal.

What I am asking you is "is it always wrong?" It looks like you can also see that stealing or killing can be the right thing to do in some circumstances but you have a hard time admitting it due to how you see things in black and white because of your religious beliefs...

shroomfox

Hell?

Doesn't exist. No such place.

I have a full argument behind this, but I have no time (or desire, right now) to explain it.

And even if I did, most people would think it was silly. Hey!

Asiaprod

shroomfox wrote:

Hell?

Doesn't exist. No such place.

I have a full argument behind this, but I have no time (or desire, right now) to explain it.

And even if I did, most people would think it was silly. Hey!

If you are so confident, teach others. Throw it out!

shroomfox

Haha, no, I'm not much of a preacher, and I'm very poor at explaining things in general anyway, and I hate people forcing their beliefs on others, and I really don't have the time. A lot of reasons not to!

Maybe some other time.

b0bsquish

Hell is there because rock bands need something to sing about..... singing about there love of fluffy rabbits just wouldnt be the same

Asiaprod

CodeMonkey wrote:

As an adult I also see the benefits of outlawing this activity so I don't question it. I don't really see it as "wrong" as such but illegal. I can imagine some circumstances where it would be acceptable or even right to steal.

Cool one, you hit a valuble point there. The word illegal. This word applies to all religions. In fact, it applies to humanity, to society. There are always mitigating curcumstances, and these are delt with on a case by case basis.
In general, it is wrong to kill, it is wrong to steal.

Asiaprod

shroomfox wrote:

Haha, no, I'm not much of a preacher, and I'm very poor at explaining things in general anyway, and I hate people forcing their beliefs on others, and I really don't have the time. A lot of reasons not to!

Maybe some other time.

Thats an awful lot of I'ms and ifs. I believe you have something you believe in to say, don't be afraid to spread it around. This board is anonymous. In your own time of course. I'm, there is one for me, interested in your take.

DinoBot

gumboots wrote:

this is a very misunderstood subject
however unfortunatly sinners will go there when the time comes if they dont seperate themselves from the evil in the world beforehand.

This what the (christian) bible teaches - i have no idea what any of the other religions say about this

This brings up a very good point you say people must seperate themselves from evil but the concept of evil is very different to different religions. Bascially, do you think people of other religions will go to hell ?

Keeping in mind these people do NOT believe Jesus was sent to save them and do NOT believe there is a satan to bring them to evil.

Which religion is going to heaven and which to hell. ...... And dont give it all that "only God can decide stuff :-)

wolfsbane

Asiaprod said:

Cool one, you hit a valuble point there. The word illegal. This word applies to all religions. In fact, it applies to humanity, to society. There are always mitigating curcumstances, and these are delt with on a case by case basis.
In general, it is wrong to kill, it is wrong to steal.

I know it is a bit off topic, but you are right to high-light this important caveat. Killing is not proscribed by the Bible - murder is. Killing another person may be justified or not - if not, it is murder. Removing another's property against his wishes may be justified or not - if not, it is theft. Self-defence will justify the former, a judicial fine the latter, for example.

thetourist

DinoBot wrote:

This brings up a very good point you say people must seperate themselves from evil but the concept of evil is very different to different religions. Bascially, do you think people of other religions will go to hell ?

Keeping in mind these people do NOT believe Jesus was sent to save them and do NOT believe there is a satan to bring them to evil.

Which religion is going to heaven and which to hell. ...... And dont give it all that "only God can decide stuff :-)

yesss --- mmmm

first off,at the risk of sounding like im saying that only god can decide, i'd like to propose that anyone who claims they KNOW is fooling themselves - it's all linked up with faith anyway - and if for other religions ( ie non christian ) it's not then actual factual scientific evidence is incredibly lacking anyway - so nobody knows for absolute certain IMO

as a christian, my thinking goes basically like this ...

christianity is very different from all other religions in that jesus claimed to be god - i know this is a little cryptic in scripture but even from a basic study you can see that he wasnt claiming to be a prophet or a teacher only.
this means one of two things - he was either god or he wasnt
if he wasnt then he wasnt much of a prophet either - he was a liar - or deluded or something
so when it comes down to it you either believe he was god and thus believe everything he said or else you believe he was not a person to be listened to at all

if you believe the former then he said noone can come to the father except by me - so that would mean that everybody who doesnt believe in jesus is going to hell

which would be something simple to believe except it's not that simple - what about babies who havent believed in anything, people who lived in the world before jesus lived, people who never heard of jesus, people who have been told about jesus by evil people and thus have a flawed opinion of him, i heard an evangelist to africa say that they are careful not to tell the locals that they are christians because the locals see madonna and michael jackson as a representation of "christians"
in short i dont think a loving god would allow all these to go to hell for such innocent reasons - so to answer your question - i dont know - and furthermore i treat with suspicion anyone who proports to know

2 things i wish to say though ---

just because all the muslims, jews, hindus, athestists etc etc etc believe jesus was not sent to save them doesnt mean that he couldnt have been - people who have this notion that jesus was sent to the christians only are being very silly !! think about it ....

there either is a satan and a hell or not --- i guarantee you if there is a hell then it is very real, not some kind of state of mind or something - otherwise it wouldnt be hell -- correct ???
well if there is a hell, then not believeing in it is not going to stop you going there

of course the converse of both the above is also true

DinoBot

Hi gumboots,

From my experience 99% of people are the religion they are because of either their parents or where they were brought up. For instance, if you were born to a muslim family in Mecca I would say you would be a devot muslim and would not follow the teachings of Jesus. But thats a little of topic and is more into the realm of Do we really have free-will or not.

My point I was making about Hell is why have it. I understand it could be used to punish the nonbelievers but why not just end their life. What is this need to keep them suffering forever. Its as if the christians can detach the concept of hell from God, as if its not Him causing the pain of those people. But of course it is. Its always in his power to end the suffering. Children love their parents but what if you found out your father was burning someone in your basement. Would that change your view on him.

How to christians deal with this ? From what Ive seen is they always say God is just so the punishment MUST be deserved (????)

Excelsior

hairyheretic wrote:

There is no right or wrong answer. There's only your own answer.

That is your answer but why should I take it to be right?

hairyheretic

Excelsior wrote:

That is your answer but why should I take it to be right?

The voices in my head assure me it is . Respect their authoritah!

BrianCalgary

DinoBot wrote:

Hi gumboots,

From my experience 99% of people are the religion they are because of either their parents or where they were brought up. For instance, if you were born to a muslim family in Mecca I would say you would be a devot muslim and would not follow the teachings of Jesus. But thats a little of topic and is more into the realm of Do we really have free-will or not.

My point I was making about Hell is why have it. I understand it could be used to punish the nonbelievers but why not just end their life. What is this need to keep them suffering forever. Its as if the christians can detach the concept of hell from God, as if its not Him causing the pain of those people. But of course it is. Its always in his power to end the suffering. Children love their parents but what if you found out your father was burning someone in your basement. Would that change your view on him.

How to christians deal with this ? From what Ive seen is they always say God is just so the punishment MUST be deserved (????)

The human soul is made for eternity. The question becomes, where is that eternity spent?

robindch

> The human soul is made for eternity. The question becomes, where is that eternity spent?

Or, from the other side of the fence:

If religion is bunch of antiquated traditions, elegantly evolved to meet basic human psychological needs (with the benefit that it also removes money and power from the pockets of the unwary and into the hands of the unscrupulous), then isn't a life spent transmitting these traditions simply a life worthlessly flung into the void?

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

> The human soul is made for eternity. The question becomes, where is that eternity spent?

Or, from the other side of the fence:

If religion is bunch of antiquated traditions, elegantly evolved to meet basic human psychological needs (with the benefit that it also removes money and power from the pockets of the unwary and into the hands of the unscrupulous), then isn't a life spent transmitting these traditions simply a life worthlessly flung into the void?

You could look at it that way. I don't see all of Christianity being picpockets on th eunwary. I acknowledge it has happened. Today though esp. in NA people can think for themselves and should be checking out where they give their money. When you see all the good that the Christian church has done in the world, you have difficulty knocking it. A stats canada study shows that Christians give the higher percentage of their income to humanitarian causes than do secular folks.

Suff

BrianCalgary wrote:

The human soul is made for eternity. The question becomes, where is that eternity spent?

Brilliant! you are the first person to say that.
and I totally agree.

Hell is needed just as Heaven is, to put it simply...
we are given a choice on how we live our life, the way we use our mind,body, wealth, social and the interaction with the nature.

if we abuse any of the above it would result in us not having any favors to enter Heaven.

Personally.., I follow Islam.

- God will forgive all sins except to deny his existance.
- Heaven is forbiddon on those who dont believe in God.
- Every Soul will see Hell, but its up to GOD to deside who goes where depending on the way we lived
our life.

Sin is required in this life [we are'nt created to be perfect] otherwise whats the point of asking for forgivnnes?, as long as we do ask for it we're ok

[On that day we say to Hell: "Have you enough?" it answers: "Any more?"]
Qaf:30

Dades

Suff wrote:

- God will forgive all sins except to deny his existance.
- Heaven is forbiddon on those who dont believe in God.

Doesn't that seem a little, well, needy?

It always sounds to me like a human trait projected onto a supposedly omnipotent deity. Why would the creator of time, matter, life and the cosmos be so obsessed with people believing he exists?

hairyheretic

The Atheist wrote:

Why would the creator of time, matter, life and the cosmos be so obsessed with people believing he exists?

Ever read "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett?

Dades

hairyheretic wrote:

Ever read "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett?

The last thing I need is to discover another writer I enjoy.
So many books... so little time!

robindch

> Ever read "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett?

Yep, it's a good read -- it's funny that some fictional gods behave the same way as the real ones!

I seem to recall vaguely from somewhere that somebody once mentioned that Pratchett had nicked the central idea from Franz Kafka, but I never bothered checking up whether this was true or not. Any ideas?

Anyhow, weird; that's the second time that Pratchett's come up here today!

If you're looking for another semi-religious parody, try the thoroughly worthwhile and quite short A Canticle for Leibowitz

hairyheretic

robindch wrote:

I seem to recall vaguely from somewhere that somebody once mentioned that Pratchett had nicked the central idea from Franz Kafka, but I never bothered checking up whether this was true or not. Any ideas?

No idea. I'd never heard that one before, and not having read Kafka I've no idea what truth is in it.

"Good Omens" would probably be another good one to read, for the semi-religious angle (it's Pratchetts version of the Omen stories, but much sillier).

BrianCalgary

The Atheist wrote:

Doesn't that seem a little, well, needy?

It always sounds to me like a human trait projected onto a supposedly omnipotent deity. Why would the creator of time, matter, life and the cosmos be so obsessed with people believing he exists?

God is concerned about us because of His love for us. I would suggest that God derives pleasure from us achieving what He has planned for us. We are assuming that His plans are what is best.

I never did quite understand this concept until I had kids of my own. Now I understand it and it works this way: I coach soccer. On Wednesday night at practice we instituted a new set up for a set piece. During Sunday's match we had the opportunity to use it. It worked. You should have seen the look on the kids faces. It is what makes coaching worthwhile. I imagine God looks on us the same way, from my standpoint to see the joy on my little face as I teach Sunday School, teach seminars, coach soccer, be a Dad adn go on a missions trip.

God does it for our sake, and He derives pleasure from watching us succeed.

thetourist

DinoBot wrote:

My point I was making about Hell is why have it. I understand it could be used to punish the nonbelievers but why not just end their life. What is this need to keep them suffering forever.

if you feel comfortable believing this then that's fine but it isnt correct according to the bible - it is abundantly clear in the bible that hell is NOT created for sinners ( i wont repeat my earlier post as im sure you can read it ) ...... and even if it was then you cant end a spirits life anyway - we are eternal - good OR evil.

i suggest the reason you have difficulty understanding the things you mention is becuase you have not read up on them correctly.

yes i suppose there is an thread going through the bible that gives the impression that god wants to punish sinners, but if you read carefully - it is not for their sin, but for their rebellion against his provided salvation from the coming doom

jesus only ever rebuked the religious people, because they were "standing in the door, neither entering yourselves or allowing others to enter"

god is not in charge of what goes on in this planet - if he were then of course you would be correct in your accusations; satan is - again this is abundantly clear in the new testament - i can give you scripture refs if you want

earth was put under the control of MAN - not god - and man gave that authority to satan - which is why the place is such a mess

if god was in contol here then he must be truly evil - just look at the place - if you believe that god is evil, fair enough but if that's the case you're well and truly f****d so why waste your time on a christianity forum when you could be off indudgling in wine women and song - i mean if god is truly to blame for all the evil in the world you dont think he's gonna care about you do you - and obviously there couln't be a hell because we're in it --- i mean if you go down this road the picture gets very bleak indeed

UU

gumboots wrote:

if you feel comfortable believing this then that's fine but it isnt correct according to the bible - it is abundantly clear in the bible that hell is NOT created for sinners ( i wont repeat my earlier post as im sure you can read it ) ...... and even if it was then you cant end a spirits life anyway - we are eternal - good OR evil.........

........if god was in contol here then he must be truly evil - just look at the place - if you believe that god is evil, fair enough but if that's the case you're well and truly f****d so why waste your time on a christianity forum when you could be off indudgling in wine women and song - i mean if god is truly to blame for all the evil in the world you dont think he's gonna care about you do you - and obviously there couln't be a hell because we're in it --- i mean if you go down this road the picture gets very bleak indeed:)

At times the world can seem an unfriendly and sinister place, but believe me when I say there is much more good in it than bad. All you have to do is look hard enough and what might seem to be evil is in fact an imbalance in that person's life who is suffering just as the you may be.

I don't believe in the heaven or hell belief of Christian doctrine but in Nirvana as in the Hindu and Buddhist traditions. Therefore, I hold the concept of reincarnation, karma and all that other wonderful stuff! I believe that the only way of truly seeking what we call God is by looking and seeing inside yourself and that is when the force lies (almost dormant in most people) but believing in others. As "I see something of God each hour of the twenty-four and each moment then / In the faces of men and women I see God, and in my own face in the glass . . ." ('Song For Myself' by Walt Whitman)

I'll give you an extract from Nelson Mandella's 'Long Walk To Freedom' that changed the way I thought in a few lines.

Even in the grimmest times in prison, when my comrades and I were pushed to our limits, I would see a glimmer of humanity in one of the guards, perhaps just for a second, but it was enough to reassure me and keep me going. Man's goodness is a flame that can be hidden but never extinguished.

It was during those long and lonely years that my hunger for the freedom of my own people became a hunger for the freedom of all people white ans black. I knew well as I knew anything that the oppressor must be liberated just as surely as the oppressed. A man who takes way another man's freedom is a prisoner of hatred, he is locked behind the bars of prejudice and narrow-mindedness. I am not truly free if I am taking away someone else's freedom, just as surely as I am not free when my freedom is taken from me. The oppresses and the oppressor are both robbed of their humanity.

Asiaprod

The Atheist wrote:

The last thing I need is to discover another writer I enjoy.
So many books... so little time!

What a shame, he is amazing. Have the entire collection and read it over and over again. Each time something more funnier is found.
Small Gods and Omens are a must read.

DinoBot

gumboots wrote:

yes i suppose there is an thread going through the bible that gives the impression that god wants to punish sinners, but if you read carefully - it is not for their sin, but for their rebellion against his provided salvation from the coming doom

So on that thinking are people from other faiths going to hell ?

thetourist

So on that thinking are people from other faiths going to hell ?

i dont think you're seeing that god doesnt want to send anyone to hell - he just has to. it has nothing to do with what faith you're from.

if you're a catholic and you firmly believe padre pio is youre savation, a born again christian who thinkgs you can save yourself based on your own good works or an anglican who thinks the bible is a fable its all the same - you're not accepting the one gift of salvation god gave us ....
and if you're an atheist , muslim, witch, baptist, hindu, cult member, or whatever it doesnt matter if you recieve jesus

that's what the bible (NT)says - people who recieve jesus are saved - all others are not - nothing to do with your religion or lack of it ( or how good you are for that matter - hitler could be in heaven now if he accepted jesus - highly unlikely i would like to think )

gumboots

gumboots wrote:

i dont think you're seeing that god doesnt want to send anyone to hell - he just has to. it has nothing to do with what faith you're from.

if you're a catholic and you firmly believe padre pio is youre savation, a born again christian who thinkgs you can save yourself based on your own good works or an anglican who thinks the bible is a fable its all the same - you're not accepting the one gift of salvation god gave us ....
and if you're an atheist , muslim, witch, baptist, hindu, cult member, or whatever it doesnt matter if you recieve jesus

that's what the bible (NT)says - people who recieve jesus are saved - all others are not - nothing to do with your religion or lack of it ( or how good you are for that matter - hitler could be in heaven now if he accepted jesus - highly unlikely i would like to think )

Well since people of other faiths obviously don't "accept" jesus, you're saying they'll go to hell.
Lovely

BrianCalgary

bluewolf wrote:

Well since people of other faiths obviously don't "accept" jesus, you're saying they'll go to hell.
Lovely

It becomes your choice. People who have been reading this post have discovered that in order to go to Heaven, you must accept Christ.

If you don't you will go to Hell. You have no one to blame but yourself if you choose to reject Christ.

UU

BrianCalgary wrote:

It becomes your choice. People who have been reading this post have discovered that in order to go to Heaven, you must accept Christ.

If you don't you will go to Hell. You have no one to blame but yourself if you choose to reject Christ.

What about the people who were born and died before Jesus came to Earth? They obviously didn't get judged on accepting Jesus as he didn't exist then.

Now just say you were born on an island in the middle of the Pacific ocean and you had never experienced Christianity. Then would you be judged on how well you live your life then?

Accepting Jesus is following his teachings isn't it? I follow his teachings as well as the Buddha's and many other great people. I don't believe Jesus was the son of God though as I'm Unitarian but I still "accept" his teachings so that counts for something. Likewise for Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Anyway, I was just posing some obstacles. I believe we get judged on how well we live our lives rather than our religion. Wouldn't it seem rather unfair if a Hindu led a fantastic life but didn't follow Christ, that he'd go to hell even though he was a brilliant person. Not a very just God I dare say!

Rev Hellfire

I dont think you're seeing that god doesnt want to send anyone to hell - he just has to

He has to? Is there some limitation placed on god ? All powerful except when it comes to hell in which case he has to toe the line.

Suff

gumboots wrote:

i dont think you're seeing that god doesnt want to send anyone to hell - he just has to. it has nothing to do with what faith you're from.

May I ask how did you come to this conclusion? Faith plays the biggest part in it!

it all depends on your faith and your life work...

Why should a [hindu, atheist, Buddhist,...] be allowed enter heaven if they dont believe in it and more importantly dont believe in GOD???
people can live denying GOD and then expect to enter heaven? that is unfaire! on what basis would you think GOD will allow them to enter? good work? not enough.

being a Muslim I believe in Christ as the promised Messiah/Prohpet but not the son of GOD or even GOD as some might believe..I believe in ONE unity a Divine Spirit, One GOD.

Life is like preparing for an exam to put it simply, the harder the questions get the harder life gets,...you work hard to pass [enter heaven] if not then you fail [enters hell].
no place for summer exams here! you got one life, one chance use it well.

thetourist

DinoBot wrote:

So on that thinking are people from other faiths going to hell ?

what ???

if a muslim accepts christ he is going to heaven !!!

( and if a christian doesnt he isnt !! )

it has nothing to do with your religion

thetourist

Rev Hellfire wrote:

He has to? Is there some limitation placed on god ? All powerful except when it comes to hell in which case he has to toe the line.

he cannot make you choose heaven or hell - maybe some people believe they are puppets on strings but i dont
and if he could make you choose heaven or hell dont you think he would make you go to mass too - or whatever

thetourist

Suff wrote:

May I ask how did you come to this conclusion? Faith plays the biggest part in it!

sorry i meant your faith as in which faith you are -- muslim hindu etc - should have said religion really

006

UU wrote:

What about the people who were born and died before Jesus came to Earth? They obviously didn't get judged on accepting Jesus as he didn't exist then.

Now just say you were born on an island in the middle of the Pacific ocean and you had never experienced Christianity. Then would you be judged on how well you live your life then?


Anyway, I was just posing some obstacles. I believe we get judged on how well we live our lives rather than our religion. Wouldn't it seem rather unfair if a Hindu led a fantastic life but didn't follow Christ, that he'd go to hell even though he was a brilliant person. Not a very just God I dare say!

very good points there.

Suff

UU wrote:

What about the people who were born and died before Jesus came to Earth? They obviously didn't get judged on accepting Jesus as he didn't exist then.

Now just say you were born on an island in the middle of the Pacific ocean and you had never experienced Christianity. Then would you be judged on how well you live your life then?

Accepting Jesus is following his teachings isn't it? I follow his teachings as well as the Buddha's and many other great people. I don't believe Jesus was the son of God though as I'm Unitarian but I still "accept" his teachings so that counts for something. Likewise for Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Anyway, I was just posing some obstacles. I believe we get judged on how well we live our lives rather than our religion. Wouldn't it seem rather unfair if a Hindu led a fantastic life but didn't follow Christ, that he'd go to hell even though he was a brilliant person. Not a very just God I dare say!

To answer you...

1-Your religion influence who you are and how you live your life.

2- People who lived before christ were either people of the book [Jews] or followed one of the major faiths at that time.
I do truely believe that GOD is just, for your example of living in an isolated island GOD would have sent some messenger among those people to guide them to him.

3- in our time earth is way smaller than it used to be, people have the ability to interact and research all faiths they come across. [ you would be a good example ] as for the hindu example, you have put it as a fantastic life but in what terms? the Hindu religion is different and have different rules if comared to other faiths. as it would ask of the person who follows its laws to act and live according to its teachings which is completly conterdicts the main element of the three heavenly faiths [J,C,I].

UU

gumboots wrote:

what ???

if a muslim accepts christ he is going to heaven !!!

( and if a christian doesnt he isnt !! )

it has nothing to do with your religion

So it doesn't matter if you accept Jesus as a son of God or a prophet, as you still essentially accept him? But it still seems unfair. What if a bad person worships Jesus like the corrupt clergy (raping and abusing people, etc.) - do they go to heaven? Although isn't being evil not accepting Jesus as it denies his teachings on virtue . . .

Suff

Faith alone doesnt work.
Both your faith and your life work will determin where you end up.

UU

Suff wrote:

as for the hindu example, you have put it as a fantastic life but in what terms?

The terms of virtue, love, compassion - the best qualities in a human being.

thetourist

<quote>
Quote:
Originally Posted by UU
What about the people who were born and died before Jesus came to Earth? They obviously didn't get judged on accepting Jesus as he didn't exist then.

Now just say you were born on an island in the middle of the Pacific ocean and you had never experienced Christianity. Then would you be judged on how well you live your life then?


Anyway, I was just posing some obstacles. I believe we get judged on how well we live our lives rather than our religion. Wouldn't it seem rather unfair if a Hindu led a fantastic life but didn't follow Christ, that he'd go to hell even though he was a brilliant person. Not a very just God I dare say!

very good points there.</quote>
of course there's more than that - what about babies ( or unbaptised babies for the caths ), seriously mentally retarded people - and im sure there's a string more of em

i've never heard a decent explanation of this ; and yet a lot of "christians" swallow it hook line and sinker --- what's the story ?

Suff

UU wrote:

The terms of virtue, love, compassion - the best qualities in a human being.

Great for them but they dont believe in GOD. they believe in so many gods, so how could that give them any favors to enter the place known as "Heaven" in the three heavenly faiths??

thetourist

UU wrote:

So it doesn't matter if you accept Jesus as a son of God or a prophet, as you still essentially accept him? But it still seems unfair. What if a bad person worships Jesus like the corrupt clergy (raping and abusing people, etc.) - do they go to heaven? Although isn't being evil not accepting Jesus as it denies his teachings on virtue . . .

What if a bad person worships Jesus like the corrupt clergy (raping and abusing people, etc.) - do they go to heaven?

yes of course he does

what people dont understand is that there isnt that much difference between a really really good person and a completly evil one in gods eyes ---- we "all fall short of the glory of god"

there was never anything just and right about salvation anyway - if we were judged on that basis we'd all be going to hell