[article] Stalwarts of unionism must adapt and change to survive

gurramok

Kilsally wrote:

hmm 2 parades out of 3000 every year, one at an interface type area and the other on a main road into Portadown. suggest you watch the drumcree video over at that site too in the orange order folder of the streaming video.

March where they are welcome and NOT where they are NOT welcome.

I have and many people have watched the OO's disgraceful behaviour particularly at Drumcree for many years, only thing is we watch the major news stations for coverage and not some propaganda video.

Kilsally

Diorraing wrote:

Oh so its OK to go around singing Croppies Lie Down because croppies isn't a derogotary term: Its just like singing Catholics Lie Down - Thats harldy offensive is it? You seem to have selelctive hearing because this is the song most closely associated with the order and the one I have heard sung most from their biggoted lips.

aye right. ive never heard a song sung at any parade let alone the one you mention. they dont sing..the badn plays and the guys march. maybe in a pub or something but again ive never heard that song youd be more likely to hear the billy boys or some paramilitary song being sung by drunken "kick the pope" band members. secondly it seems to be a soldiers song singing about rebels. religion isnt mentioned and infact the song seems to be about the United Irishmen in which case it is Presbyterians as well as Catholics.

how about you go to that site and watch "Tobermore" which last for over two hours and shows the entire 12th July parade and point out a single man, lodge or band that even opens there mouth in song? No? Because there isnt any singing and that the way the parades are. Video tells alot.

Kilsally

Suggest you also watch BATTLEFIELD BRITAIN - A CLASH OF KINGS: THE BATTLE OF THE BOYNE on BBC 2 this saturday which details the results of the victory at the Boyne and the political and religious makeups of the armies showing it was vastly more complex than Protestant King and army beats Catholic King and army
By Corinne Field
http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/trlout_gfx_en/TRA23254.html

Flex

Kilsally wrote:

Suggest you also watch BATTLEFIELD BRITAIN - A CLASH OF KINGS: THE BATTLE OF THE BOYNE on BBC 2 this saturday which details the results of the victory at the Boyne and the political and religious makeups of the armies showing it was vastly more complex than Protestant King and army beats Catholic King and army

Why is it called 'Battlefield Britain' if its covering a battle that took place in Ireland? I know lots about the Battle of the Boyne, and dont understand why the role of certain people, like the Pope, in aiding William isnt remembered to a proper degree and why banners and such arnt dedicated to him at orange order parades and such

fly_agaric

Kilsally wrote:

I highly doubt you will see a "blood and thunder" type band at this demonstration. I would assume the six bands will be entirely tasteful with Pipe, Accordian and Silver bands being likely candidates perhaps playing hymns.

Will the Orange Order droogies wear their killer bowler hat things like on the old tellyvision? They always remind me of oddjob and I'd like to see one try to slice a Garda (or a shinner) in half with one.:D

edit - forgive me, I've been at something and have strange pictures in my head.

Kilsally

Flex wrote:

Why is it called 'Battlefield Britain' if its covering a battle that took place in Ireland? I know lots about the Battle of the Boyne, and dont understand why the role of certain people, like the Pope, in aiding William isnt remembered to a proper degree and why banners and such arnt dedicated to him at orange order parades and such

Its a tv series about battles. things like trafalgar. the boyne episode is the only one in Ireland but it affected the whole area, even europe..and he sailed from england with his army. the pope thing is mentioned..funny to think he was small and asmatic, took an asthma attack in the middle of the boyne river, fell off his horse and nearly drowned except someone pulled him out.

hill16

Kilsally the Orange Order marching through a Nationalist area is like the KKK marching through a black area.Most order members wont even meet with residents because they see them as second class citizens.The sectarian Billy Boys is one of their favourite songs.

http://www.glasgowguide.co.uk/wjmc/billyboy.shtml

Sand

Why is it called 'Battlefield Britain' if its covering a battle that took place in Ireland?

Probably to *really* irritate people irritated by that sort of thing? Good for a laugh if nothing else.
Or maybe its just a name of a series covering 8 battles, and not a constitutional challenge on our independance? I dont know, Im just throwing out a wild guess.

Kilsally the Orange Order marching through a Nationalist area is like the KKK marching through a black area.Most order members wont even meet with residents because they see them as second class citizens.The sectarian Billy Boys is one of their favourite songs.

Makes you wonder why provos are so hateful of the Orange Order and/or dismissive of any element of Ulster-Scots identity but yet so determined to install them in the Irish republic. Of course, most Provo thinking on a United Ireland blindly ignores reality to begin with so they probably assume the OO will vanish one morning, never to be seen again. Mind you, it wouldnt be the first time people the provos didnt like dissapeared.

gurramok

Sand wrote:

Makes you wonder why provos are so hateful of the Orange Order and/or dismissive of any element of Ulster-Scots identity but yet so determined to install them in the Irish republic. Of course, most Provo thinking on a United Ireland blindly ignores reality to begin with so they probably assume the OO will vanish one morning, never to be seen again. Mind you, it wouldnt be the first time people the provos didnt like dissapeared.

Funny thing is, you just labelled the entire population of a residential area that opposes a hate march of them through their area as Provos.

Sand

Funny thing is, you just labelled the entire population of a residential area that opposes a hate march of them through their area as Provos.

Funny thing is, I didnt. The other funny thing is I could care less even if I had.

BTW Kilsally, Im actually stunned youve managed to retain civility/patience so far. For parity of esteem to work, it needs more people like yourself who are willing to attempt to explain what lies beyond the stereotypes. Unfortunately youre outnumbered...

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

The other funny thing is I could care less even if I had.

There is really no surprise there, you did not even have to state it.

BTW Kilsally, Im actually stunned youve managed to retain civility/patience so far.

You are stunned quite easily

For parity of esteem to work, it needs more people like yourself who are willing to attempt to explain what lies beyond the stereotypes. Unfortunately youre outnumbered...

Someone who denys all knowlegde of what really goes on in an OO march/
12th July Celebration. It really is what you want to hear, isn't it?

Flex

Sand wrote:

The other funny thing is I could care less even if I had.

You dont? Thats so disrespectful towards people who would most likely be nationalists/republicans, not like you at all Sand. :rolleyes:

BTW Kilsally, Im actually stunned youve managed to retain civility/patience so far. For parity of esteem to work, it needs more people like yourself who are willing to attempt to explain what lies beyond the stereotypes. Unfortunately youre outnumbered...

LOL!!! Mr. "IhateRepublicanswithaburningobsessivepassion" talking about how to make parity of esteem work.

Sand

Someone who denys all knowlegde of what really goes on in an OO march/
12th July Celebration. It really is what you want to hear, isn't it?

Well, if he is denying the reality of a Northern Irish organisation he wouldnt be lonely for company. The amount of people who run around shouting "I never heard of SFIRA, the IRA has gone away, it doesnt exist" etc etc.

Either way, the Orange Order isnt going to vanish. The Provos are going to have to learn to live with it, as much as they demand the Unionists live with them, and their variable respect for the law. Shouting about how theyre nazis and hate marches etc isnt going to lead to anything other than confrontation, bitterness and tribalism. Exactly the sort of conditions both the DUP and SFIRA have profited from and encouraged.

At the end of the day, the OO is going to be a part of this Dublin parade/demo. Will the sky fall down? No. And if you feel the issues are intractable and the OO is impossible to live with, then surely you cant be in favour of importing those intractable issues into our relatively healthy democracy?

LOL!!! Mr. "IhateRepublicanswithaburningobsessivepassion" talking about how to make parity of esteem work.

Well the Provos alternative of dividing NI into Catholic and Protestant areas where neither side ventures into the others area without permission isnt exactly a recipe for bliss.

Kilsally

hill16 wrote:

Kilsally the Orange Order marching through a Nationalist area is like the KKK marching through a black area.Most order members wont even meet with residents because they see them as second class citizens.The sectarian Billy Boys is one of their favourite songs.

http://www.glasgowguide.co.uk/wjmc/billyboy.shtml

No its nothing like it. But for starters are you talking Nationalist area or Roman Catholic area?
the sectarian billy boys is actually a very old tune from Scotland. it was also played during the american civil war as the song "marching through georgia", well prior to the billy boys criminal gang in glasgow in the early 1900`s which the lyrics "the billy boys" is about.

as Rowan Atkinson recently stated:
"To criticise a person for their race is manifestly irrational and ridiculous but to criticise their religion, that is a right. That is a freedom.

"The freedom to criticise ideas, any ideas - even if they are sincerely held beliefs - is one of the fundamental freedoms of society.

"A law which attempts to say you can criticise and ridicule ideas as long as they are not religious ideas is a very peculiar law indeed."

Kilsally

Sand wrote:

Well the Provos alternative of dividing NI into Catholic and Protestant areas where neither side ventures into the others area without permission isnt exactly a recipe for bliss.

Exactly, the very notion of labelling areas as Catholic areas or Protestant areas is highly dangerous. When you see UDA scumbags pipe bombing Catholics from "Protestant areas" you really havent much to complain about if you are advocating the usange of such things in the first place. People of similar opinions will of course congregate together but that should not undermine the rights of the individual. People should be free to live where they want, play what sports they want, joi which organisations they want and walk or march a public road if they want so long as it is peaceful.

Kilsally

Sand wrote:

Funny thing is, I didnt. The other funny thing is I could care less even if I had.

BTW Kilsally, Im actually stunned youve managed to retain civility/patience so far. For parity of esteem to work, it needs more people like yourself who are willing to attempt to explain what lies beyond the stereotypes. Unfortunately youre outnumbered...

Stereotypes are sometimes rooted in truth but they also take a life of their own. I`m not saying the Orange Order is perfect because it is not but it is not a homogenous single block. There are hardliners and there are moderates as in all things. There are bigots with hatred of Catholics and there are those that simply disagree on a theologocal basis with Catholicism justa s there are outside Orangeism. Infact I would say those Loyalists outside Orangeism that have little to do with churches, know nothing of theology and are simply bigoted in their view of Catholicsm with relatively little knowledge of either Catholicms or Reformed theology.

Kilsally

"LOL!!! Mr. "IhateRepublicanswithaburningobsessivepassion" talking about how to make parity of esteem work."

what is your definition of Republican? If it is the American model then I have very little to argue with as I am in much agreement. Sinn Feins model however is based on a narrow definition of Irish Nationalism and marxism which I disagree with. Personally I believe an independent Northern Ireland based on some form of power sharing or qualified majority is the way forward.

Flex

Kilsally wrote:

"LOL!!! Mr. "IhateRepublicanswithaburningobsessivepassion" talking about how to make parity of esteem work."

what is your definition of Republican? If it is the American model then I have very little to argue with as I am in much agreement. Sinn Feins model however is based on a narrow definition of Irish Nationalism and marxism which I disagree with. Personally I believe an independent Northern Ireland based on some form of power sharing or qualified majority is the way forward.

my definition of an Irish republican is someone who supports a united sovereign Ireland free from foreign rule; ie. the ambition of the United Irishmen. AFAIK, the American Republican party are conservatives and Im not a fan of marxism or Sinn Fein tbh. Solution I see is Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh going back to Ireland and Antrim and Down being ruled from Britain or somewhere. If you are asking me what I think a 'republican' is then Id presume its something like preferring a president over a monarch or something along those lines.