Degree

Gibs

This year there were 165 applicants to the UCD Clinical Psychology Programme. All of those would have had a good (2:1) undergraduate degree in psychology, most would have had a master's degree in psychology and most would have had some clinical experience.

Of the 165 that applied, 40 were called for the first interview, 20 were called back for the 2nd interview and 12 were offered places.

Unless you are very committed to clinical psychology, you should probably consider whether this kind of bottleneck is one you want to try to squeeze through:rolleyes:

On the other hand, over 30% of Clinical Psychology posts in Ireland are unfilled and the salary as a basic grade (newly qualified) clinical psychologist is 50,000euro. This goes up to 74,000 euro 2 years post graduation (which is when you are eligible to become a senior clinical psychologist).

Valmont

John2 wrote:

Freudian-slipped your mind?

Oh brother, I was wondering who would get to it first, haha


The most annoying problem about psychology at undergraduate level, is getting into the course into the first place.

The colossal points required to study the subject do not necessarily reflect
its difficulty.

My leaving cert points and my decision to study privately was a financial risk, but it turned out to be a prudent decision.

There is an awful lot of statistics involved but a good grade at pass level maths gives an excellent starting point.

My advice, don't be disheartened by entry requirements and that sort of thing, if you want to go for it, go for it!

Valmont

Eoghan-psych wrote:

Psychology under the Irish university system is a very difficult field to get into [>500 points, except in the private institutions which is, IMHO, quite telling]

As a hard working student of a private institution, would you care to elaborate? Maybe I can settle some myths about private third level education for you.

Kooli

snorlax wrote:

is a counselling course any easier to get into and do they do masters courses anywhere? i had a friend in third year psychology in tcd and he couldn't decide between counselling or clinical psychology for when he finished. Admittedly he said the good wage was a large attractor to clinical psychology.

It's slightly easier, yes, although still very difficult - last intake for Trinity was about 20, from about 80 applicants, so not half as bad as clinical.

And the pay is the same woohoo!!!

Odysseus

Come on lads be fair, I may be just a humble psychoanalyst, however, I lecture in the field of addiction, and this is just not my opinion, but also from people who lecture in state universities, although I must admit only the ones I have worked with, that whilst it may be easy to get on to a psych course in a private college, you are worked a lot harder, just my thoughts. But I have met state univeristy psychs who have'nt got a clue, not impling that that is the case all the time. However, there is a hugh amount of sonbbery with state univerisities, I heard of people been told that because the BA or Bsc is from the Open univeristy that they won't be accepted on to a clinical course, now if it is accredited by the psi is that just not wrong?

Odysseus

Kooli wrote:

It's slightly easier, yes, although still very difficult - last intake for Trinity was about 20, from about 80 applicants, so not half as bad as clinical.

And the pay is the same woohoo!!!

Once again, come be fair money is important, but if it is just cash your after you in the wrong game mate. I go through stages of doing private work when I'm available, and tbh I just could'nt bill someone for more than 40e a session, as far as I aware this is really cheap. The only time I would bill someome for more is when the amount the earn indicates that a higher vaule needs to be put on the process. However, if you talking about state work, you will earn more, than a therapist or counsellor, for doing the same job. Best of luck with that.

snorlax

speaking of which is it possible to do psychotherapy if you haven't done a basic degree in psychology but have done a course where several psychology subjects are covered?

can anyone tell me the difference between a psychotherapist and a clinical psychologist working in the mental health sector?

i came across both while on my last placement. given that the psychotherapist there was 70 she couldn't tell me what technique she was employing with her clients apart from listening to them and what they had to say (which sounds alot like a form of counselling) and letting them shape the session. I asked her did she use any CBT/ freudian tecniques and she looked at me like i had two heads, bearing in mind everyone that this lady was 70 and mightn't be very up to date with the theoretical elements of practise.
the clinical psychologist seemed to do a lot of very in-depth standardised neurological assessments on clients, and the sessions were much more controlled eg they saw them for a set amount of time/ sessions where as the psychotherapist saw one client for 3 years. Could someone here please outline more clearly they're different roles for me as it is still somewhat unclear to me.

John

Psychotherapy is very similar to counselling. There's a few different flavours of psychotherapy, some are very wishy-washy and don't show much success. Others employ more concrete techniques like CBT to get the patient to get to the root of their own problems and work it out themselves. Psychotherapy is very much unregulated and you get people who really shouldn't be treating anyone setting up practices.

Clinical psychologists are more like psychiatrists without the medical degree. They will treat psychological problems using a more scientific/medical approach (I don't mean surgery and drugs of course but proven interventions and psychological techniques). They apply clinically/scientifically proven methods and knowledge whereas not all psychotherapists will be working to an approved/accepted method and could be blissfully unaware of recent findings like the psychotherapist you encountered. Of course clinical psychologists will employ a lot of the approaches that psychotherapists would typically use provided they work and the situation calls for it. You have to be properly qualified to practice as a clinical psychologist. Also you have to be recognised by the PSI/BPS to practice as a clinical psychologist.

I kind of see it as psychotherapists being someone well trained in first aid and clinical psychologists being surgeons.

Odysseus

The difference between psychotherapy and clinical psychology is a interesting question but to me a difficult one, I know that I will not be able to give a difinitive answer. To discuss some of the above points, you do not have to have a psych degree, thought it helps. As well as this not all psychotherapy courses are post grad, therefore a primary degree is not required. I have issues about dip. level courses but that's just me. Psychotherapy can be seen as being unregulated, but I would say that most psychotherapist's would disagree. In addition, this is being slowly addressed by the department of health, and if you want to work within a Health body like the HSE, you need to be qualified and recognised by a psychotherapy body.

I disagree with the first aid metaphor as there is a hugh difference between the amount of training a first aider and a surgeon undergo. For example I am a psychoanalytic psychotherapist, my training included my BA in psychoanalytic studies, my MA in psychoanalysis, five years of personal therapy, and supervision in relation to my clinical work. Therefore, I think to believe that all psychotherapists have under gone a mininal training is wrong, personally, my own thoughts are that all psychotherapists should train up Masters level, but there just my own thoughts.

My own thoughts on the difference between the two modalities are that as a psychotherapist it work with a subject, by this I mean the object of psychoanalysis is the unconscious. Whereas with psychology the focus is more on the objective, i.e use of DSM, ICD, various tests. I do agree that some cross over in methods are there, but there is an emphasis being objective, and in the form of clinical work I encounter the practice is more on the subjective. Just my thoughts.

eclectichoney

a bit of a digression - apologies! - but does that mean clinical psychologists provide a similar service (broadly speaking) to psychotherapists? obviously there are differences, but they both provide a therapy/counselling type service so to speak? im quite confused, so sorry if i've got the wrong idea!

Odysseus

eclectichoney wrote:

a bit of a digression - apologies! - but does that mean clinical psychologists provide a similar service (broadly speaking) to psychotherapists? obviously there are differences, but they both provide a therapy/counselling type service so to speak? im quite confused, so sorry if i've got the wrong idea!

I could be wrong here and hence I'm open to correction, my understanding is the therapy supplied by psychologists would be much more limited, in relation to the amount of time given. In addition, psychologists perform other functions than just therapy. I be interested in what others think but maybe it needs a new thread?

Brian33

Hey all,

Sorry to be back-tracking...but with the whole IRL postgrad versus UK postgrad thing...the conversion courses in the UK seem to be one-year long courses, whereas the HDips in Ireland are all two-year courses. Does anyone know if completing a BPS accredited UK conversion course will get you graduate membership with the PSI? Are UK conversion courses as respected in Ireland as Irish ones? I've tried contacting the PSI about this, but their answer has been "Get a postgrad qualification in the UK and THEN we'll audit it to see if it's worthy of the PSI". That's not quite the response I was looking for ofcourse...

Thanks for any help ya's can provide,
~Brian

NorthenQueen

I did the Psychology degree in UCD a (finished four years ago). It was a great course. It was quite applied, which is good, with a day of labs once a week. It had a good mixture of ages too as there is a 2 year hdip course for mature students, so its a good place to go if you are going back to college as a mature student.
The only drawback with psychology is that it takes a long time to do anything "psychological" with it and it requires postgrad studies in order to get work/
It will help you in what ever you do though as it teachs problem solving and I think thats its strength.

princess27

Just to let you guys know that i would not recommend the Diploma in Psychology in DBS. Lecturers there are very unprofessional. In fact would not do any other course there after experiencing the year there! I did my degree a few years back in a recognised college and there is a huge difference between recognised colleges and the likes of DBS! I was lucky that work paid for my fees in DBS but if it had been my own money i would have dropped out earlier on. I mean the lecturer read out of notes from day one and didn't seem to have much of his own research or passion for the subject.I have a big interest in Psychology however and looking into the Counselling course in NUI Maynooth part time certificate which seems pretty interesting.Has anyone done the cert in Counselling in Maynooth?

Gibs

Hi eclectichoney,

It is confusing, even for people in the field, to say exactly what the difference between a clinical psychologist/counselling psychologist/psychotherapist actually is.

Psychotherapy is a term that describes one activity that many different professionals engage in. I am a bit reluctant to get into precise definitions because I will almost certainly cause outrage to someone (there's a reason why, at a BPS meeting a few years ago, a suggestion was made that a "disagreement of psychologists" be adopted as the collective noun ).

Caveats aside, there is a lot of overlap between the activities of people involved in these professions. The difficulty is that there is not a single pathway into becoming a mental health professional, nor is there a single accepted way of doing psychotherapy or of practicing as a psychologist, whether clinical or counselling.

Most clinical psychologists would subscribe to the idea that they are "scientist-practitioners". This means that, while they use the scientific method and use a scientific evidence-base in developing their theoretical models, they also acknowledge that the implementation of this knowledge base in a therapeutically valid way can only be achieved in the context of a strong and effective therapeutic relationship. In other words, clinical psychology may aspire to being a science, but in practice it is also an art. Clinical psychologists engage in a lot of activities, including research, therapy, education, training, assessment of function and designing and implementing programmes for therapeutic change. Probably the key skill that they make use of is called formulation (do a google on clin psych and formulation if you want an explanation)

This answer is going to get too long if I don't watch it, but one way of thinking about the differences beween the fields is to consider how the various professions work in Ireland or the UK. Before anyone disagrees with me, I should preface this by saying that there are no hard and fast rules, only general tendencies. In general then, Clinical psychologists tend to work with more seriously disturbed populations and are more likely trained in psychometric assessment and projective assessment. Counselling psychology graduates work with healthier, less pathological populations and conduct more career and vocational assessment (Brems & Johnson, 1997; Fitzgerald & Osipow, 1986; Watkins, Lopez, Campbell, & Himmell, 1986).

Obviously this is not a rule, only a general tendency. In reality, there is a lot of overlap.

Psychotherapists are people who work therapeutically with clients but dont necessarily have a background in scientific psychology, though most do. MAny clincial/counselling psychologists do post-doctoral training in psychotherapy. However, psychotherapy takes many forms and uses many different theoretical models. I think I read in an article a couple of years ago that the APA (american psychological association) had identified over 300 distinct types of psychotherapy models in the literature.

One of the oldest forms of psychotherapy is psychoanalysis. I don't incorporate this into my practice, so you could see if someone else who does so could explain this approach to you. Although psychoanalysis claims that it is very effective, its outcomes are difficult if not impossible to measure. As a result, it has fallen out of favour in recent decades because of the need to show 'results' and due to the economics of mental health. Psychoanalysis can take place over a number of years and insurance companies and the like who pay for it all have tended to have a preference for CBT or other, less time-consuming therapies like brief solution-focused therapy or systemic models of therapy. Psychodynamic psychotherapy is also another popular approach and ther are countless others.

Most good therapists will adjust the way they work and the theoretical models they use to fit the needs of their clients. For example, some clients might be very introspective and capable of pursuing therapeutic change by means of an insight-based approach, whereas others might be less inclined to engage in deep thought and might respond better to a behavioural intervention. Other people have difficulties that appear to be most effectively resolved using a systemic method (where you 'treat' the whole family/group). A good example here is Anorexia, which seems to respond best to family (systemic) therapy.

I have already gone on too long and have probabaly raised the hackles of a number of people - apologies for any errors/misrepresentations in the above . Essentially though, from a career point of view, it all underlines the point that there is more than one way to get into the mental health and therapy professions. The best book I have come across on the topic is called "What is Clinical Psychology?" by John Marzillier and John Hall, which should be available in good bookshops or on amazon. I think its pretty old by now, but there may be an updated version. Start by reading that, then get an introductory textbook to psychology (they are all pretty similar)

This article also has a bit more info on the differences.

And here's another one that explains in detail what clin psychs do

Hope that's helpful.:)

SusieC

LundiMardi wrote:

Here's the jist of the diploma...

Hi, This one year course looks like something I would definitely like to do but I wonder where is the course given?
It has been great to read the comments here, I am a total novice when it comes to message boards having never posted before.
Could you please let me know where the course is run? There isn't alot of choice to do a degree in psychology in the evening in Dublin is there?
Thanks very much...

p.pete

Hi SusieC
I've had a look back through this thread and couldn't find it saying anywhere which course LundiMardi was talking about specifically. I'll send a message and hopefully they'll either reply into this thread or else if they reply to me I can add it in here (or I may get no response ).

For what it's worth, the post by LundiMardi was back at the start of this year, so depending on the admission system you may not need to rush (though it's possible they'd have more than one intake per year).

p.pete

Ok, I've sent the PM to LundiMardi and then found the info on the web straight after that - seems the course being referred to is run by Dublin Business School:

http://www.web.dbs.edu/about/webpage_content.asp?WebPageContent_id=815

Idioteque

p.pete wrote:

Ok, I've sent the PM to LundiMardi and then found the info on the web straight after that - seems the course being referred to is run by Dublin Business School:

Hi SusieC,

I was looking at doing that eveing course last Year with DBS. I went along to the open day and have to say I was very un-impressed with the set up. Not only was the open day badly run. When I met with one of the Psychology Lecturers, she seemed completely unintrested even when speaking about her own modules. Personally, that was enough to put me off but I also came across some other posts where people mentioned it wasn't the best course either.
I'm hoping to start a full time Psychology degree next year in UCD and want something related to study in the meantime i.e starting this Sept.
I'd reccomend getting the 'evening courses' booklet that's published normally in the next week or so (it may even be out already) and having a look at other colleges that do psychology courses.
Again, I haven't done the DBS course but from that open day and a bit of research I was put off doing it.

Hope that helps!

SusieC

p.pete wrote:

Hi SusieC
I've had a look back through this thread and couldn't find it saying anywhere which course LundiMardi was talking about specifically. I'll send a message and hopefully they'll either reply into this thread or else if they reply to me I can add it in here (or I may get no response ).

For what it's worth, the post by LundiMardi was back at the start of this year, so depending on the admission system you may not need to rush (though it's possible they'd have more than one intake per year).

Hi, Thanks a mill for this. Found out this course was for DBS. Thanks alot
for the help;)

SusieC

Thanks for this, it always helps to know whether the course is quality or not.
It is definitely important to me to meet teachers who are interested! and who enjoy their job...! I have heard alot now about DBS which makes me wonder about their standards.
It is great to get feedback this way, thanks alot....

EdgarAllenPoo

I have a quick question about going down the Oscail route. Can you actually have the degree awarded by TCD and get the use of their library while you study?

Jelmpsych

I would very much recommend visiting the either the PSI, or BPS website's to insure the course that interests you carries GBR (Graduate basis for recognition). Without it you'll have to start all over again. Not all courses carry the same status. Good luck, Jelmpsych.

Jelmpsych

There was a clerical error last year whereby a few oscail students applied to the psi, and in error they were admitted. since then I was told that someone in oscail have been claiming their course wasd recognised. To date i'm sad to say it isn't. Therefore, if planning to become a psychologist, you will have to do a conversion course before you can gain professional status. Good luck, jelmpsych.

Tingo

To put a different slant on the question, where is a good place to study Psychology?

I've looked at UCD's and Trinity's websites, but there's only so much a dry list can tell you like how DBS could look decent but apparently the Professors are uninterested so obviously it wouldn't be great place to study.:eek:

It's a bit too basic to ask which college has the best course, but for people who have studied it, how did you find the classes and lecturers? The two lists looked similiar, and the points appear equal, so are the courses basically the same in Trinity and UCD?

Maynooth does Psychology too, right? I thought I finally decided what I would like to do in college, but more things to consider. :rolleyes:

John

TCD, UCD and Maynooth all are great degrees. Each of the universities offer similar courses, all the same basics are covered but the emphasis on some of the more advanced areas depend on the lecturers in the particular departments. Basically once the course is accredited by the Psychological Society of Ireland it means that the degree is of a certain standard that will allow you to go on and do further study/work in psychology.

MonaLisa

Hi All,
I have read the threads, I have to say they were all very informative and interesting.

I am looking for a part time Diploma Course in Psychology. I have a H:2:1 in Computer Science (from DCU) And I have plenty of science back ground Physics/Chemistry/ Biology ... (as I had originally wanted to do medicine but sadly ended up with only 475 points)

I am not planning to pursue a future career in this field (as I am Already working) but I am interested in the subject and would like study the subject.

If DBS is not the recommended college in Ireland to do this course, then can anyone recommend a place (in Dublin if possible) where I can do this on a part time basis.

Many thanks for your help, :rolleyes:
Mona.

Valmont

MonaLisa wrote:

(as I had originally wanted to do medicine but sadly ended up with only 475 points)

Only 475!!!!!!!! That was bleedin brilliant! It's a pity that the points for medicine don't reflect the difficulty of the course (which is very difficult) but someone with your points would have done great.

MonaLisa

..

Valmont wrote:

Only 475!!!!!!!! That was bleedin brilliant! It's a pity that the points for medicine don't reflect the difficulty of the course (which is very difficult) but someone with your points would have done great.

Thank you darling ..
You know if I was a bit younger I would have gone back and repeated the Leaving cert again ...
But ... no point thinking of that any more...

so anyone with advice for part time Psychology school??
Monalisa