pensions, could you be arsed?

constitutionus

theres alot of talk about pensions and how despite the fact were all in danger of dying by the age of forty thanks to a combination of binge drinking and obesiety, those of us how DO survive will be destitute and therefore we either all should take out pensions or the gov. will FORCE em on us and i was just wondering what you all think about this

personally i dont see how this is viable. of the 900 thousand people who dont have pensions the guts of 700 thousand are on the minimum wage, which just leaves us with around 200 to 225 thousand people the vast majority of which are probably on about 25k a year in earnings. now when you consider the average gaff now costs about 1000 to 1500 a a month in a mortgage and your probably forking out 2000 a month in creche fees then your probably living on less than the state pension in terms of disposable income as it is.

look at it this way, my mothers a 68 year old pensioner . she gets free public transport , phone line/calls (to a limit) fuel suplement ,TV license ,electricity and a medical card so she gets free medical care as well. this is on top of the 200 euro she gets off the government (ok its not exactly 200 but its close enough) which she basically uses to buy food/clothing and to socialise/gifts for loved ones special occasions.

after ive but away for all MY financial obligations ive a disposable income of about 130 euro:eek: this means im effectively living on LESS than the state pension and seeings as i wont be able to pay off my mortgage till my mid 50s (and i know im doing better than some in that regards) i wont get to spend my full wage on myself till im almost ment to retire any way SO WHY SHOULD I BOTHER WHEN IN LESS THAN A DECADE ILL BE 70 QUID BETTER OFF THAN I AM NOW especially seeing as im paying PRSI as it is.

in my honest oppinion i think this is more about the government being worried about 900 thousand consumers not buying plasma screen TVs or getting extensions anymore than a genuine fear for my well being. i mean i dont know about you but i dont intend to be travelling around the orient or clubbing when im 70 so what the hell do i want a LARGE pension for at that stage

aidan_walsh

my mothers a 68 year old pensioner . she gets free public transport , phone line/calls (to a limit) fuel suplement ,TV license ,electricity and a medical card so she gets free medical care as well. this is on top of the 200 euro she gets off the government (ok its not exactly 200 but its close enough) which she basically uses to buy food/clothing and to socialise/gifts for loved ones special occasions.

SO WHY SHOULD I BOTHER WHEN IN LESS THAN A DECADE ILL BE 70 QUID BETTER OFF THAN I AM NOW

what the hell do i want a LARGE pension for at that stage

Because with a generally flat birth rate and a decreasing death rate, people will be living longer, with a larger block of people entering retirement than entering the workforce in any given year. This means that the next generations are going to have to pay higher tax so that you can get then what your mother gets now. Of course, this isn't going to work out unless wages rise in kind, which willpush up inflation, which will raise prices, meaning more tax paid into pensions, meaning...

Basically, getting a private pension is a good idea, but unfortunatly not a very viable option for many people as you point out. This is going to be a massive problem. Its either that or die and don't be a burden.

However, we have as a nation already proven that we are willing to put money aside, given the general success of the SSIA scheme.

ronbyrne2005

if your on 42% tax rate the tax advantages are very attractice and added to long term returns on pension funds then everyone should start a pension.the people on lower tax rates/min wage should get an extra incentive. people should also be prepared to work longer than 65 even if its parttime-i know of many people working full time in their 70's. other option is to sell your house when you retire and move to a cheaper house or cheaper country invest proceeds from house and live off this and the state pension.

Nuttzz

yes i could, ive had a pension since i was 23, dont fancy living on 130 a week...

Hobbes

The best solution is to have lots of babies.

Nuttzz

Hobbes wrote:

The best solution is to have lots of babies.

I think a few quid a month into a pension fund is cheaper and less intrusive on your social life than a house full of rug rats

Buy property abroad. Bail out on retirement.

My family's medical history and a fondness for some vices means it will be a miracle if I live too many years past 65. Apart from some tax saving now, would there be anything worse than paying into something and dying before you reap it?

gurramok

Hobbes wrote:

The best solution is to have lots of babies.

Well, the free money from the govt in the budget giving anyone €1000 a yr per child should help the birth rate climb a bit.
Maybe its a cop-out way by the govt to solve the pensions crisis a bit?

constitutionus

you know the one things thats always bothered me is that the economists NEVER seem to take immigration into the equation. correct me if im wrong but i dont think immigrants are entitled to the state pension because theyre NOT irish citizens. seeing as projections in that area reckon we'll have almost 2 MILLION extra people living here at current rates by 2020, and as mentioned earlier due to the flat birth rate its reasonable to assume ALL these people will probably be immigrant (or their kids).
now i work with immigrants, most of my mates plans are to stay in the country for about 5 years, save as much money as they can and go home.
this means there will be a SIGNIFICANT number of people working in the state,contributing to tax, who will NEVER claim the state pension here.

so wheres the crisis

and if im wrong about immigrants claiming the state pension, then theres nothing to stop us buggering off in our old age to OTHER EU countries for our retirements (come to think of it i DO remember something about spain being worried about this:) )

it just gets to me to keep hearing the government harp on about this, when theyve got their indexed linked state pension which is WELL in excess of the average industrial wage. yet seem INCAPABLE of understanding why some one on 7.65 to 12 euro an hour cant afford to take one out.

they are never going to get 50% of the work force to take out pensions, let alone 70%

aidan_walsh

constitutionus wrote:

you know the one things thats always bothered me is that the economists NEVER seem to take immigration into the equation. correct me if im wrong but i dont think immigrants are entitled to the state pension because theyre NOT irish citizens. seeing as projections in that area reckon we'll have almost 2 MILLION extra people living here at current rates by 2020, and as mentioned earlier due to the flat birth rate its reasonable to assume ALL these people will probably be immigrant (or their kids).
now i work with immigrants, most of my mates plans are to stay in the country for about 5 years, save as much money as they can and go home.
this means there will be a SIGNIFICANT number of people working in the state,contributing to tax, who will NEVER claim the state pension here.

so wheres the crisis

and if im wrong about immigrants claiming the state pension, then theres nothing to stop us buggering off in our old age to OTHER EU countries for our retirements (come to think of it i DO remember something about spain being worried about this:) )

it just gets to me to keep hearing the government harp on about this, when theyve got their indexed linked state pension which is WELL in excess of the average industrial wage. yet seem INCAPABLE of understanding why some one on 7.65 to 12 euro an hour cant afford to take one out.

they are never going to get 50% of the work force to take out pensions, let alone 70%

Uh, right.

rubadub

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

if your on 42% tax rate the tax advantages .

Irish life sent in 2 goons to our place about pensions (or was it PRSA, same idea really), I think every work place had to. I finally got one of them to admit it isnt really worthwhile if you are not in the higer bracket and have investments elsewhere.

constitutionus

rubadub wrote:

Irish life sent in 2 goons to our place about pensions (or was it PRSA, same idea really), I think every work place had to. I finally got one of them to admit it isnt really worthwhile if you are not in the higer bracket and have investments elsewhere.

exactly, if your on the 42% tax band then your earning more or around the average industrial wage. this complealty excludes almost every one of the 900 thousand people that the government are so worried about.

dont misunderstand me , if your on in excess of 30 to 35 thousand a year and have a low mortgage with no kids by all means go for it . the pensions worth it. its just if your on 20 like me then its not, and at the end of the day i dont see anything besides a mandatory pension being able to do anything to get me to take one out. and that would be political suicide:)

Nuttzz

i'd support mandatory pensions in return for the removal for prsi...

constitutionus

Nuttzz wrote:

i'd support mandatory pensions in return for the removal for prsi...

I dont mind PRSI , but the only way i'd support mandatory pensions is if they scrap all the public sector pensions and put everyone on a level playing field. funny little thing i have called equality

DublinWriter

constitutionus wrote:

look at it this way, my mothers a 68 year old pensioner . she gets free public transport , phone line/calls (to a limit) fuel suplement ,TV license...

Stop right there dude. You're comparing apples with oranges. The way things are today is going to be completely different in 20/30/40 years.

In the 60's people bred like rabbits in this country. They weren't called the baby-boomers for nothing.

The country's population profile has been getting seriously older since the 60's, basically meaning more old people, less young people to pay for the state benefits that you mentioned that your mother gets.

As for retiring at 70 as you said, I'm self-employed, and hopefully the private pension I took out at 28 will enable me to retire at 58.

constitutionus

DublinWriter wrote:

Stop right there dude. You're comparing apples with oranges. The way things are today is going to be completely different in 20/30/40 years.

In the 60's people bred like rabbits in this country. They weren't called the baby-boomers for nothing.

The country's population profile has been getting seriously older since the 60's, basically meaning more old people, less young people to pay for the state benefits that you mentioned that your mother gets.

As for retiring at 70 as you said, I'm self-employed, and hopefully the private pension I took out at 28 will enable me to retire at 58.

but what are those figures based on ? dont get me wrong i understand the basic premise of the assesment but NO ONE thought we'd have 100 thousand polish people working her now. 100 thousand workers by the way the vast majority of which ARENT going to stay in this county and will head home in 5 years, to be replaced by ANOTHER 100 thousand people.
ALL the tax they paid in the economy will stay here and they'll never claim it as a pension.

it just seems to me the figures are based on CHILDBIRTH rates and not the overall workers in the country that'll actually claim a pension. and if memory serves people are now talking about an additional 2 MILLION people living in the country by 2020, quite a significant number of these i wager will be transiant workers

i understand the fear of politicians and co over the pensions issue but the truth is they cant tell me when i retire ( or YOU) that the pension i took out wont be worthless when it matures ANYWAY.
look at all those poor bastards in britain who had pension with maxwell, they saved their entire working life only to retire and find out hed blown it all:eek:
and thats NOT the only example, just the first i could think of.

i really hope your pension plan works out but truth is there is a statistical chance that when you go to claim it it could be worth HALF of what you thought, or nothing at all:(

thats why im intending to invest in a business (my own:) ) to secure an income and combine it with my state one, which ironically is STILL the one we can predict best (mainly because as you stated the population that can VOTE will be predominatly old, and god help ANY politician to go up against the grey lobby )

Sponge Bob

DublinWriter wrote:

In the 60's people bred like rabbits in this country. They weren't called the baby-boomers for nothing.

WTF , that happened in the UK and the US in the 1960s , here it happened c. 1976-1981 , much later in other words .