Petition To Keep tablature sites open

-( i )- Wicker

As you may know, the Music Publisher's Association (MPA) are trying to take legal action against tablature & interpretation websites. If they succeed, the only tabs available will be by purchase. Please read and sign this petition to prevent their legal action from proceeding: http://www.petitiononline.com/mioti/petition.html

miju

signed

Kian

X

miju

i'll sticky this for a little while to help generate a bit more interest

John

Why do you want to stop artists getting their royalties from tab sites?

miju

John2 wrote:

Why do you want to stop artists getting their royalties from tab sites?

I dont, in fact i don't think anyone would begrudge artists their dues, but what this whole thing is about is that this is the next step in the MP3 / internet fight.

what they are basically saying now is that you HAVE to pay for tablature so that royalties can be collected and so they are planning a legally shutting down all websites that offer tablature for free (even though they've literally been around since the start of this whoel interweb thingy)

John

miju wrote:

I dont, in fact i don't think anyone would begrudge artists their dues, but what this whole thing is about is that this is the next step in the MP3 / internet fight.

what they are basically saying now is that you HAVE to pay for tablature so that royalties can be collected and so they are planning a legally shutting down all websites that offer tablature for free (even though they've literally been around since the start of this whoel interweb thingy)

Well if these were sites offering downloads of novels for free where the author got no royalties would you still be insisting that they stayed open? People are getting something for nothing and the artist is getting screwed. For smaller bands with a high musician following (like say Opeth), this could mean the difference between working in a shop doing overtime between tours. A petition to keep these sites open in their current form is nothing but greediness on the parts of the people who use them.

I still think an itunes type site would be the best option here.

miju

I understand what your saying all right about the novels but the thing with these tab sites is that most of them are transcribed by the listener and then put up on them to share, they're not taken directly from the books.

they are usually somewhat in accurate and most people go and buy the book anyways if they want exact accuracy

and besides all of that most decent musicians won't need guitar tab / sheet music they can listen to the songs and pick it off after a few hours

loki_atwa

count me in what a shame i know THEY WERE NEVER SPOT ON but it gave you a helpin hand im not paying for books which cost more then the cd if they were a fiver maybe i would think about it

John

miju wrote:

I understand what your saying all right about the novels but the thing with these tab sites is that most of them are transcribed by the listener and then put up on them to share, they're not taken directly from the books.

they are usually somewhat in accurate and most people go and buy the book anyways if they want exact accuracy

and besides all of that most decent musicians won't need guitar tab / sheet music they can listen to the songs and pick it off after a few hours

It's not a question of accuracy. It's a question of intellectual property. It doesn't matter how close the tab is to the song it is still the songwriter's work and they deserve to paid for their work.

NotMe

They get paid for their recorded work.. they shouldn't get paid for someones written interpretation of their music.

Doctor J

And the author of a book shouldn't get paid if someone interprets their work into a movie?

Voodu Child

I wouldnt support this petition either, its pretty much a black and white issue. An artists music is an intellectual copyright, whether it be the original recording or transcribed on paper. Thats really all there is to it. Someone has taken the time to create the music, if you want the privelage of having that music in front of you, for your music playing pleasure, you have should have to pay for it.

For a professional musician, their music is their livelihood, its how they pay for their food, support their children etc. Youre not simply paying for the physical medium whether it be a CD or a bit of paper, youre paying for the hundreds of hours spent in a studio, the thousands of hours spent rehearsing with their band, the countless years spent practicing their instrument, and the entire lifetime of experiences and inspirations that lead to each musical statement.

Thats gotta be worth twenty odd quid.

david

Hmm I guess I'm against the ban, it's a great resource for beginners for a start, whats the whole point of banning it? I havent looked up tabs an months, its a far better excercise to work out songs by ear anyway, unless its some Petrucci or Malmsteen. And if people really want to learn a song they'll work it out without tabs anyway.

I honestly don't see what musicians would lose from free tabs being published online, completely different issue to the whole illegal MP3 thing in my opinion anyway.

miju

guys your preaching to the converted here about intilectual copyright and royalties etc, i understand and agree with all those point COMPLETELY

my point here is though this will do more harm than good when you look at the bigger picture as i already pointed out above, besides that they should concentrate on trying to fully sort the MP3 issue before adopting the scattergun approach on everything else

besides any other argument, how many musicians here will admit to not being able to pick something off by ear and then being in town popping into a guitar shop having a quick read up on the tab and then playing it back later on, it's the exact same thing IMHO

Doctor J

Tabs are such a small part of the big picture here, it's about so much more than rock guitar. It's already been discussed (to death ) here. The song and the recording of the song are very different things, the mp3 issue is to do with the recording, the current issue finally deals with protecting the intellectual property of the songwriter/composer (many of whom do not record and release their own material).

LundiMardi

online petitions are pointless tbh

miju

Doctor J wrote:

Tabs are such a small part of the big picture here, it's about so much more than rock guitar. It's already been discussed (to death ) here. The song and the recording of the song are very different things, the mp3 issue is to do with the recording, the current issue finally deals with protecting the intellectual property of the songwriter/composer (many of whom do not record and release their own material).

aye indeed it does, however, why is there one rule for major artists and another rule for indie unsigned artists

not to get too bogged down in the legalities of it but why should majors get paid for ANY intellectual copyright on the internet and everyone else can go sing for it (if you pardon the pun)

John

miju wrote:

aye indeed it does, however, why is there one rule for major artists and another rule for indie unsigned artists

not to get too bogged down in the legalities of it but why should majors get paid for ANY intellectual copyright on the internet and everyone else can go sing for it (if you pardon the pun)

It's nothing to do with the majors, they only own the individual recordings (that's why people like Johnny Cash can have the same song recorded about fifty different times on different labels). The artists themselves own their intellectual property. It's the publishers who collect the money for the artists (including the indie ones) because it's a full time job to go around seeing where all your work is used, can you imagine a band sitting down every night searching the net for every site that has their tabs and emailing the site looking for their royalties (which are totally deserved). This is an action that will do a lot of independent artists a lot of good. Especially those that don't record but simply write.

I'll say it again, keeping tab sites in their current form is just greed on the behalf of the people too cheap to pay an artist their due.

Doctor J

miju wrote:

aye indeed it does, however, why is there one rule for major artists and another rule for indie unsigned artists

This is why I support this ban, this time there is no distinction between major artists and indie artists, this is the one initiative of the industry which doesn't discriminate. This protects artists who don't even have record deals, it protects artists who don't record songs, who just write. It protects the song, not the recording of the song and, as I said on the thread I linked to, the record companies only own the recordings, the artists own the songs. This one can be of direct benefit to every creative person who has gotten screwed by the industry because the song is not a physical recording by a specific band, this covers every interpretation, every cover version, every reproduction of a person's work, finally the person who did the creative work stands to make a gain here. I think that's such a good thing and I despair of every claim that this is just going to make money for record companies. It is nothing to do with record companies, PR, Marketing, Managers, Producers any of the cancers of modern music. This will help the artist. I support it fully.

miju

in all fairness john i think the 2 of us are looking at this from different perspectives so we're gonna have to agree to disagree

miju

Doctor J wrote:

This is why I support this ban, this time there is no distinction between major artists and indie artists, this is the one initiative of the industry which doesn't discriminate. This protects artists who don't even have record deals, it protects artists who don't record songs, who just write. It protects the song, not the recording of the song and, as I said on the thread I linked to, the record companies only own the recordings, the artists own the songs. This one can be of direct benefit to every creative person who has gotten screwed by the industry because the song is not a physical recording by a specific band, this covers every interpretation, every cover version, every reproduction of a person's work, finally the person who did the creative work stands to make a gain here. I think that's such a good thing and I despair of every claim that this is just going to make money for record companies. It is nothing to do with record companies, PR, Marketing, Managers, Producers any of the cancers of modern music. This will help the artist. I support it fully.

OK I've just realised that I've been reading this completely wrongly, oh boy do I have a red face

im with you guys now about what ye mean and agree totally

note to self: in future pay more attention to articles

Doctor J

Don't worry about it man, royalties are a stupidly complex and confusing topic, it took three years doing in college doing sound engineering before I even started to get a vague idea of how it all works

miju

i've a pretty decent knowledge of how royalties and licensing work i was just reading it all completely wrong

John

miju wrote:

OK I've just realised that I've been reading this completely wrongly, oh boy do I have a red face

im with you guys now about what ye mean and agree totally

note to self: in future pay more attention to articles

No bother miju, I was guessing it was a case of wires being crossed.

miju

indeed it is, crossed very badly :-x

sroberts82

Would it really matter? Tabs themselves are never that accurate, so you could argue they are different songs. And you colud just come up with a different but similar name, like Brian Goggs who played on the left wing for Man U in sensible soccer for the megadrive.

connie_c

I think all tab sites with work submitted by amatuers should be free. if the work thats submitted is copied from the official transcriptions thats a different story.

If you think that you should have to pay for them then the argument follows that if you have the skill to listen to the song and figure it out then you should really pay the artist every time you play it on guitar.

If you show someone how to play that song then you should remind that person to pay the author for the privilidge also.

If you write down the words of the song to sing it in your band you should also pay them. If that went on there would be no new music because it would be impossible for people to learn.

If you learn a poem off by heart from a library book do you send the author a check? No

If you quote someone in a essay do you contact their publisher? No

If you like a song enough to look up the chords so you can sing it at parties should you ask everyone who hears it to make a contribution? No

If you take a photo of a painting to you post the artist a fiver?No

If you learn a song will it perhaps teach you something you didnt know about guitar, inspiring you to make up great songs for people to dance to? Possibly

Artists are honoured when people take the time and effort to learn their songs. If they do that they almost definitly have their albums and go to their gigs. This is a big scam. The publishing industry is trying to keep it shareholders happy. This is not about saving the starving children of your favourite song writers.

This is Copyright gone to far. If this kind of thing is allowed to continue eventually cover versions will be illegal(im seeing a silver lining). New bands will be unable to learn their instruments properly. It will turn us all into criminals because tabs will just move to the bit torrents and filesharing programs. They wont go away. This will encourage people to use that sofware where they will be tempted to steal the actual songs so they can play along. (if they dont already own them)

John

Firstly, I must point out that the sheet music (however accurately it is transcribed) is as much a copy of a song as a recording is. Think about it, up until a hundred or so years ago a written version was the only recording format available.

connie_c wrote:

I think all tab sites with work submitted by amatuers should be free. if the work thats submitted is copied from the official transcriptions thats a different story.

Well it's still the original writer's work. If I rewrote a novel with crap spelling and poor grammar but kept the plot and characters I'd be infringeing copyright.

If you think that you should have to pay for them then the argument follows that if you have the skill to listen to the song and figure it out then you should really pay the artist every time you play it on guitar.

No, that is a ridiculous statement. Making a copy of the song in written format is not the same as playing the song to yourself. That's clearly stated in copyright law. Private performance (ie practising a song or humming a tune) is free from royalties.

If you show someone how to play that song then you should remind that person to pay the author for the privilidge also.

No.

If you write down the words of the song to sing it in your band you should also pay them. If that went on there would be no new music because it would be impossible for people to learn.

No, you're not making it available. It's the same as burning a back up copy of a CD.

If you learn a poem off by heart from a library book do you send the author a check? No

Because you haven't copied it to make it available publicly.

If you quote someone in a essay do you contact their publisher? No

Provided you reference the quote. If you reference (or if you quote in a review of the work) then you are exempt from copyright.

If you like a song enough to look up the chords so you can sing it at parties should you ask everyone who hears it to make a contribution? No

No, just you. It's a public performance and technically you owe the original writer royalties. It's just obviously never enforced. On a related note, "Happy Birthday" is still in copyright. Technically we all break copyright law every time we sing it at a party.

If you take a photo of a painting to you post the artist a fiver?No

No but you should.

If you learn a song will it perhaps teach you something you didnt know about guitar, inspiring you to make up great songs for people to dance to? Possibly

Possibly but learning a song doesn't mean you shouldn't have to pay for a written copy of the music if you're going to use it.

Artists are honoured when people take the time and effort to learn their songs. If they do that they almost definitly have their albums and go to their gigs. This is a big scam. The publishing industry is trying to keep it shareholders happy. This is not about saving the starving children of your favourite song writers.

Yes it is about the song writers. Of course the shareholders will get a cut but this is in some cases a substantial source of revenue for artists that is being lost. This isn't the industry trying to screw the public over, this is one of the first steps by the music industry to look after the artists. If you're against that, I'm sorry for you.

This is Copyright gone to far. If this kind of thing is allowed to continue eventually cover versions will be illegal(im seeing a silver lining).

Covers aren't illegal. You have to pay the original artists if you play their song on a CD or a gig. Of course smaller bands aren't going to do this but I'm sure for larger bands they will pay the original artist if they do a tour where they include a cover in their set.

New bands will be unable to learn their instruments properly.

Many don't learn properly as it is. In any case it's still not illegal to learn the songs, it's just illegal to steal the sheet music.

It will turn us all into criminals because tabs will just move to the bit torrents and filesharing programs. They wont go away. This will encourage people to use that sofware where they will be tempted to steal the actual songs so they can play along. (if they dont already own them)

Illegal mp3s haven't gone away but legitimate websites and programs are very much in the majority now. As I've said several times, an affordable (€1 a song or whatever) and accurate itunes type tab site will clean up if it launches quickly enough.

NotMe

Doctor J wrote:

And the author of a book shouldn't get paid if someone interprets their work into a movie?

Not if the movie is made by me and distributed for free over the internet... I can understand why someone would be against sites that charge for sheet music but if it's user-submitted and being given away free I don't see the problem. Are lyrics sites to be banned aswell?

Doctor J

Why should you be allowed to distribute my work for free, without my permission? If I create something I should have the say as to what does and does not happen to it. If someone takes the time to transcribe something and someone else takes the time to download that thing, then surely the thing is of value? Surely the creator of the thing is entitled to charge a fee for the use of their creation? After all, it was their talent which is responsible for bringing into the world something which others see enough merit in to dedicate their time to making it accessable to others.

Communism doesn't work.

Yes, lyric sites are also part of this. It covers the unauthorised reproduction of intellectual property. Whether someone makes money off it or they give it away for free, the core issue is that the creator of the work (not the interpretor, distributor or whatever else you want to call it) is entitled to decide how and where their work is made available. That is not unreasonable by any means, don't you agree?

Earthhorse

John2 wrote:

...this is in some cases a substantial source of revenue for artists that is being lost.

I'd agree with pretty much everything in your post except this. Most artists don't make their sheet music available for sale. Those that do are generally very popular and get the majority of the their money from record sales and concerts.

You have suggested the setting up of some iTunes type service where we could buy the tab, which is a nice idea, but until such a service exists there is no loss financially to the artist.

John

Earthhorse wrote:

I'd agree with pretty much everything in your post except this. Most artists don't make their sheet music available for sale. Those that do are generally very popular and get the majority of the their money from record sales and concerts.

You have suggested the setting up of some iTunes type service where we could buy the tab, which is a nice idea, but until such a service exists there is no loss financially to the artist.

Ok granted most artists don't technically lose money at the moment because they're not selling a product. However if a tab site was made up where you could buy tabs one by one, I think that the site would be able to hire transcribers who would work on the top requested songs or whatever. It might encourage artists to transcribe their own music to sell too.

projectmayhem

artists are free to do covers of other artists' songs, as long as they don't publish the songs for money (though it is a bit of a legal loophole tbh), so the same rules apply to tabs atm.

the sites are shutting down because those who run them can't afford to go into a legal battle with 5 record labels... tbh not even lars ulrich has come out and said "omfg those **** are stealing our art!#@!"

John

projectmayhem wrote:

artists are free to do covers of other artists' songs, as long as they don't publish the songs for money (though it is a bit of a legal loophole tbh), so the same rules apply to tabs atm.

the sites are shutting down because those who run them can't afford to go into a legal battle with 5 record labels... tbh not even lars ulrich has come out and said "omfg those **** are stealing our art!#@!"

No artist is free to do covers. If you play a cover as part of a performance, you owe the person who wrote it money. It's just that this is rarely enforced, especially for small time bands. Tab sites as they are/were break copyright law, plain and simple. It's only now that the publishing companies (which has **** all to do with a record label) are doing anything about it.

Doctor J

projectmayhem wrote:

the sites are shutting down because those who run them can't afford to go into a legal battle with 5 record labels

Again, I tell you this has nothing to do with any record labels.

drop-d

Any good musician worth his salt can identify the tab himself....

Let the crap musicians pay!

Hello Miju;)