Cannabis to remain class C in the UK

rubadub

Change to cannabis law 'ruled out'
January 18, 2006 - icsurreyonline

Home Secretary Charles Clarke is expected to rule out another reclassification of cannabis on Thursday, despite fresh fears about the drug's side-effects.

Concerns about a link between super-strength varieties and mental illness have mounted since his predecessor David Blunkett down-graded the drug from Class B to C.

But Mr Clarke is expected launch a major public information campaign instead of adding to confusion by again changing the classification.

His announcement follows an unpublished report from the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, which apparently found the impact of smoking cannabis on mental health was more serious than previously thought.

The council is said to have stopped short of recommending reclassification and many drugs experts believe that would be counter-productive.

The council report is said to have concluded: "The risk to an individual of developing a schizophreniform illness as a result of using cannabis is very small.

"The harmfulness of cannabis to the individual remains substantially less than the harmfulness caused by substances currently controlled under the act as Class B."

Mr Clarke was apparently warned by council members that some would consider quitting if he reclassified the drug.

New Tory leader David Cameron was a member of the Commons committee which recommended down-grading it and his party is no longer pushing for reclassification.

The Home Secretary has been criticised for spreading confusion after voicing concerns about the effects of cannabis.

Mushrooms are said to be made illegal in Ireland by the summer, copying the brits as usual. Now WTF can't we copy them on their cannabis laws!

Maskhadov

Because cannabis is an EVIL drug that causes several brain diseases.

rubadub

Panel says link with mental illness is 'very small'
guardian.co.uk

New scientific evidence suggests a causal link between cannabis use and long-term psychotic symptoms, according to the government's top drug advisory committee. But in a draft report to the home secretary, Charles Clarke, seen by the Guardian, the committee says that the risks are not high enough to support reclassification as class B.

The report says: "The [committee] considers that cannabis products should remain class C. At worst, the risk to an individual of developing a schizophreniform illness as a result of using cannabis is very small. The harmfulness of cannabis, to the individual, remains substantially less than the harmfulness caused by substances currently controlled under the act as class B." A source close to the committee said only one member out of 36 voted to shift cannabis back to class B.

The report said: "Collectively, the weight of evidence from these studies suggests an association between cannabis use, and the development of schizophrenia or a schizophreniform disorder, that is causal ... The best current estimate of the populations-attributable risk of schizophreniform illness due to cannabis (the percentage reduction in the prevalence of the condition if the use of cannabis could be totally eliminated) is about 8-10%."

In March, Mr Clarke asked the Advisory Council on Misuse of Drugs (ACMD) to look at the decision to declassify cannabis from B to C and consider evidence that cannabis available in Britain is increasing in potency. He directed it to two recent population-based studies suggesting a link between cannabis use and mental health problems.

On the potency question, the ACMD concluded: "There is no evidence that, during this period [1995-2005], the potency of cannabis resin has changed in any significant way ... There has, however, been an increase in the potency in sinsemilla." This refers to intensively grown super-strength varieties such as skunk.

Since 2002 a handful of population-based studies have pointed to cannabis being a causal factor in schizophrenia and the development of more subtle psychotic symptoms.

"Each one of these studies has its own deficiencies, but the impressive thing is that they all point in the same direction," said Robin Murray, a psychiatrist at King's College London who wrote some of the papers. They suggest that cannabis increases the chance of a user developing psychotic symptoms two- or fourfold, he said. The risk of lung cancer for cigarette smokers is 10-15 times.

He believes that reclassifying cannabis was a mistake, but he accepts that the scientific case is far from watertight. Cannabis use and schizophrenia could be linked by a third factor, perhaps cannabis users being more likely to use another drug that causes mental health problems, something the new studies try to take into account.

Others are sceptical of the new studies. "The total number of people involved is very, very small," said Professor Leslie Iversen, a pharmacologist at Oxford University and ACMD member. "If you look at any of those studies, a very tiny proportion of the cohort actually develop psychotic illness that might be attributable to cannabis."

Research by Cécile Henquet and her colleagues at the University of Maastricht was also considered by the council. "The consensus is that cannabis is not harmless. It is much more harmful than we expected, but it is not that cannabis in itself can cause psychosis," she said. ""Apparently some people have a sensitive brain to cannabis exposure."

meditraitor

rubadub wrote:

Panel says link with mental illness is 'very small'
."

Give it a rest Rudabub,

Its illegal because it is harmfull .

Goodshape

meditraitor wrote:

Give it a rest Rudabub,

Its illegal because it is harmfull .

That's not necessarily true.

(edit: food for thought)

Mushrooms are said to be made illegal in Ireland by the summer

Is that true? Last official word I heard is that there would be no changes to the law (this was a few months ago).

Hard to legislate something which grows freely in my backyard in anycase.

rubadub

meditraitor wrote:

Give it a rest Rudabub,

Its illegal because it is harmfull .

That wasnt my comment, that was the headline. If every potentially harmful substance was illegal the supermarkets would be bare.

rubadub

Goodshape wrote:

Is that true? Last official word I heard is that there would be no changes to the law (this was a few months ago).

Hard to legislate something which grows freely in my backyard in anycase.

It was on Pat Kennys show yesterday. Set to be illegal by the summer they said.

meditraitor

Originally Posted by meditraitor
Give it a rest Rudabub,

Its illegal because it is harmfull .

Goodshape wrote:

That's not necessarily true.
.

Take your head out of the sand brother, this topic has been played out thoroughly on at least 3 other threads,

Claim and counter claim, links, reports and personal experience... and in the end no-one not even the pro dopes can say cannabis is not harmfull...


Mark

Goodshape

meditraitor wrote:

and in the end no-one not even the pro dopes can say cannabis is not harmfull...

Of course its harmful - as are a lot of very common and legal things. That's a very ambiguous term.

But I think I should be free to evaluate the risks involved and make up my own mind on the matter without being branded a criminal.

Legal or not you will never be forced to use it.

It was on Pat Kennys show yesterday. Set to be illegal by the summer they said.

Can't say I'm happy to hear that.

meditraitor

rubadub wrote:

That wasnt my comment, that was the headline. If every potentially harmful substance was illegal the supermarkets would be bare.

I totally agree with you dude, but the continual glorification of cannabis is a bit annoying,

Before its used as a reason for cannabis legalisation let me state that I know alcoholic drinks and ciggarettes are bad for you but there is no need to add to the problems with another potentially harmfull substance

If you look at the pharmacueatical industry for instance, if any product licenced for prescription or sale in Ireland is found to have harmfull effects on even 1% of the users it is immediatly taken of the market, you can check this yourself
So how can you make a substance that has a harmfull effect on more than 1% of its users legal??

Goodshape

meditraitor wrote:

So how can you make a substance that has a harmfull effect on more than 1% of its users legal??

You're comparing prescribed medicines (something which you are encouraged to take by your medical doctor) to something you use to get high. That's a bit silly, don't you think?

For comparison, milk is harmful to some of the population (sorry, no figures).

meditraitor

Goodshape wrote:

You're comparing prescribed medicines (something which you are encouraged to take by your medical doctor) to something you use to get high. That's a bit silly, don't you think?

By comparison, milk is harmful to some of the population (sorry, no figures).

Are you smoking at the moment ?

Milk-Cannabis - how the hell did you make the connection there?

Goodshape

meditraitor wrote:

Milk-Cannabis - how the hell did you make the connection there?

Merely illustrarting how easy it is to find something that's harmful to someone (as cannibus has been linked to kick-starting mental illness in some).

Don't get hung up on it, it was a pretty throw-away point

meditraitor

Goodshape wrote:

Merely illustarting how easy it is to find something that's harmful to someone (as cannibus has been linked to kick-starting mental illness in some).

Don't get hung up on it, it was a pretty throw-away point

Grand- Just noticed the thread is in politics(was it not in after hours?), bit to serious for me,

exit stage left

rubadub

meditraitor wrote:

in the end no-one not even the pro dopes can say cannabis is not harmfull...

Can ANY group say ANY substance is not harmfull (or addictive)?

meditraitor wrote:

I totally agree with you dude, but the continual glorification of cannabis is a bit annoying,

I didn't think either one was glorifying it. Esp. this quote.
"The consensus is that cannabis is not harmless. It is much more harmful than we expected, but it is not that cannabis in itself can cause psychosis,"

meditraitor wrote:

Before its used as a reason for cannabis legalisation let me state that I know alcoholic drinks and ciggarettes are bad for you but there is no need to add to the problems with another potentially harmfull substance

I honestly think it will reduce problems. In other thread I made an anology to mcdonalds menus and trying to stop obesity, if they put on a new "lower fat burger" it may still be considered bad for you but the better of 2 evils, people are not going to eat their usual big mac meal AND the new burger, just like people are not going to drink their same 10 pints AND smoke a 1/4. It is not common at all to see drunks in holland, even though the beer is cheaper there than here, the UK or the US. Yet you see gangs of lads on holidays and they are usually fine.

Psilocybin (Mushrooms) & LSD were medicinally used in the treatment of alcoholism, and used by recovering alcoholics shame to see them on the way out.

meditraitor

rubadub wrote:

Can ANY group say ANY substance is not harmfull (or addictive)?


I didn't think either one was glorifying it. Esp. this quote.
"The consensus is that cannabis is not harmless. It is much more harmful than we expected, but it is not that cannabis in itself can cause psychosis,"



I honestly think it will reduce problems. In other thread I made an anology to mcdonalds menus and trying to stop obesity, if they put on a new "lower fat burger" it may still be considered bad for you but the better of 2 evils, people are not going to eat their usual big mac meal AND the new burger, just like people are not going to drink their same 10 pints AND smoke a 1/4. It is not common at all to see drunks in holland, even though the beer is cheaper there than here, the UK or the US. Yet you see gangs of lads on holidays and they are usually fine.

Psilocybin (Mushrooms) & LSD were medicinally used in the treatment of alcoholism, and used by recovering alcoholics shame to see them on the way out.

I wouldnt recommend taking Mushrooms to anyone! but I have had some savage trips, always enjoyable..
Downside is I know for a fact(from being in the company off on many occasion) that a bad trip on these bad boys will mentaly scar you...

Like cannabis a percentage of people who indulge will have a bad experience even if as some people here think it is a small(which it is not-my experience from the social circle i grew up with tells me it is about 10-20%) portion of people who take or use, I think the risks are to high to make these products freely available.

meditraitor

rubadub wrote:

I honestly think it will reduce problems. In other thread I made an anology to mcdonalds menus and trying to stop obesity, if they put on a new "lower fat burger" it may still be considered bad for you but the better of 2 evils, people are not going to eat their usual big mac meal AND the new burger, just like people are not going to drink their same 10 pints AND smoke a 1/4. It is not common at all to see drunks in holland, .

Amsterdam is one of the scariest places on earth if you take a wrong turn(cannabis has no effect on this), dublin is much safer, and there is plenty of drunks in holland too,

Goodshape

meditraitor wrote:

a percentage of people who indulge will have a bad experience even if as some people here think it is a small(..) portion of people who take or use, I think the risks are to high to make these products freely available.

Are you talking about mushrooms here, or cannabis?

Mushrooms need to be respected a bit more in my opinion. I wouldn't recommend anyone take them if all they're looking for is a 'mad buzz' on a friday night.

I still don't think criminilising these things is the answer however, perticulaly, as I said, seen as it grows naturally and freely.

And the last thing you need on a mushroom trip is the fear of getting 'caught'.

Maskhadov

I hate the way people try to make cannabis cool and sexy. It's a narcotic which will give the user a whole range of disorders from the very mild to the very strong. There is nothing cool or sexy about it.

The only use it has is in medical research where the good parts of the plant are taken out of the weed.

We should never legalise it here. Its a gateway drug. The UK government is just trying to ease unrest with people form a poor social-econmic background.

People who smoke narcotics like Cannabis are obviously trying to get away from something or they are under too much stress.

rubadub

meditraitor wrote:

I wouldnt recommend taking Mushrooms to anyone! but I have had some savage trips, always enjoyable..
Downside is I know for a fact(from being in the company off on many occasion) that a bad trip on these bad boys will mentaly scar you...

I am not recommending them just mentioning that they were used for treatment of alcoholism. Now the mushrooms are going to be illegal, partly due to the death rumoured to be related to mushrooms, whereas there are plenty of deaths due to alcohol confirmed by doctors and no word of it ever to be made illegal.

Overindulgence is what give theses substances a bad name too, like this "cannabis doubles your chance of being a schizo", one report mentioned heavy use, which ended up being about 10grams of hash per day!, I would equate that to about 2-3 bottles of vodka a day. I smoke or vapourise miniscule amounts of cannabis, pin-head amounts, many do but all some people see or hear about is people in "whities", the equivalent of a wino on the street or girl puking all over herself in a pub, on the ground skirt up to her tits.

LSD & psilocybin in treatments for cluster headaches and alcoholism are using tiny doses compared to that needed for a "savage trip", no chance of a bad trip, just like you won't end up in a blackout calling your boss a bastard after 3 sips of wine at an office party.

rubadub

Maskhadov wrote:

I hate the way people try to make cannabis cool and sexy. It's a narcotic which will give the user a whole range of disorders from the very mild to the very strong. There is nothing cool or sexy about it.

It is terrible, they do it with ALL recreational drugs legal or not, it will always happen.

Maskhadov wrote:

The only use it has is in medical research where the good parts of the plant are taken out of the weed.

In the US they issue rolled joints to patients to smoke. I find it odd that it is not high potency hash or vapourised or eaten. The doctors obviously think even smoking it is more beneficial than not taking it.

Maskhadov wrote:

Its a gateway drug.

Even the gardai have stopped using this one! caffeine is THE no.1 gateway drug, no doubt about that whatsoever.

Maskhadov wrote:

People who smoke narcotics like Cannabis are obviously trying to get away from something or they are under too much stress.

Yes, and I see no problem with that... Stress is a major killer in todays society, my granny likes a nice cup of tea laced with caffeine to relax, she says she can give up any time she wants but when you ask her to she says she simply doesnt want to. Others have a glass of wine or a beer after work to unwind. So yes stress relief is one of the major medicinal uses of cannabis.

Goodshape

Maskhadov wrote:

I hate the way people try to make cannabis cool and sexy. It's a narcotic which will give the user a whole range of disorders from the very mild to the very strong.

It will give the user a whole range of disorders?

Not sure where you're getting those facts from but I think you've been misinformed. Cannabis is a fairly mild and non-adictive drug in the scheme of things wheather you like it or not. It's not for everyone, sure, but to say that it's a guaranteed way to a mental disorder is propostorous.

Its a gateway drug.

You probably shouldn't have opened that can of worms.

If someone is interested in drugs then yes, they are likely to start with cannabis before anything else (it's fairly easy to get and, as said, its comparativly mild). But making an informed decision and deciding that a cannabis cigarette is worth the risk will not under any circumstances warp your better judgement when it comes to other drugs.

As someone who enjoys a joint myself, I can tell you first hand that I've never felt too bothered about anything 'harder'.

People who smoke narcotics like Cannabis are obviously trying to get away from something or they are under too much stress.

Only thing I try to get away from is people like you

Maskhadov

Im not going to get bogged down into answering all those points. However, i still stand by my posts and I know I am correct. Cannabis is an EVIL NARCOTIC. People shouldnt smoke it at all. IF they do smoke it, it should be difficult to get and people caught with it should face the legal action....

Just because a hospital gives people in pain a joint. It doesnt mean its right to smoke it. Of course there are a few good chemicals in the cannabis weed but labs can extract that and give it to patients in pill form without all the side effects and without supporting an underworld drug regime. (That doesnt mean they should go and legalise it either BTW)

Yes, smoking cannabis WILL give the user some form of mental disorder. It may be very mild or it may be very strong depending on how much they smoke it but it will effect them.

The Gardai should be checking peoples blood for narcotics at check points along the road.

I totally back our Minister.. I think he is leading a honourable line on this and the UK government has made a major error of judgement

rubadub

Maskhadov wrote:

I know I am correct. Cannabis is an EVIL NARCOTIC. People shouldnt smoke it at all. IF they do smoke it, it should be difficult to get and people caught with it should face the legal action....

Fantastic! would you care to list some other currently legal drugs that you would like to see made illegal.

Maskhadov wrote:

Yes, smoking cannabis WILL give the user some form of mental disorder. It may be very mild or it may be very strong depending on how much they smoke it but it will effect them.

The EXACT same can be said about alcohol, so no doubt it will be one of the many on your list. Also what legal action should be taken against cannabis smokers and the other drugs you are opposed to?

Goodshape

Maskhadov wrote:

I know I am correct.

How do you know?

Cannabis is an EVIL NARCOTIC.

Evil? That's pretty subjective if you ask me.

without all the side effects and without supporting an underworld drug regime.

Without all the side effects sort of negates the point, does it not?

And with a legal plant the 'underworld drug regime' wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on.

Yes, smoking cannabis WILL give the user some form of mental disorder.

What, like being high? That wears off you know.

The Gardai should be checking peoples blood for narcotics at check points along the road.

I totally back our Minister.. I think he is leading a honourable line on this and the UK government has made a major error of judgement

And I'm so glad you're not in charge around here.

Cronus333

meditraitor wrote:

Give it a rest Rudabub,

Its illegal because it is harmfull .

Not true. If all harmful substances were illegal, then goodbye tobacco, alcohol, household cleaners, morphine, mobile phones.....

Maskhadov

I dont think we can put mobile phones in the same bracket as Cannabis. Those other things you mentioned were drugs not narcotics.

We need to crack down on narcotic use in Ireland not give it the thumbs up. Narcotics wrecks peoples lives and anyone who has visited the Netherlands can see for themselves how low things can decend into.

extragon

Mental illness caused by alcohol: cerebral atrophy, psychosis, Wernicke's encephalopathy, depression, suicide.

Ronan|Raven

If all governments are serious about criminalising hardmful substances they should start with alcohol.

rubadub

Maskhadov wrote:

Those other things you mentioned were drugs not narcotics.

Now there is a great argument :rolleyes:
What is your definition of drug and narcotic then. A look on google gives this.
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+narcotic&meta=

So alcohol, morhpine, cannabis and some household cleans would fit most of the definitions...

Snake-

I'm just going to post a few of my personal thoughts right now. Mainly aimed at Maskhadov to educate him a bit. I apologise for any mispellings ect.

Maskhadov, you live in a different world than many other people. I'm not saying you live in a dream world, I'm stating your view and way of life is different to other people's view and way of life. You need to take this into consideration when you have an argument like the one at hand.

You believe legal action should be taken when people are caught with cannabis and other drugs. This is your view, but what I dislike is, people like you who wish harm on others who wish or do no harm to others. People like you are in drug squads. People like like you fight drugs useing 'the law.' They ban drugs, and destroy people's lives who do and sell drugs.

I hope you have an open mind... Let me start off with a little jiberish...
People like different music. People have different religions. People have different ways of lives. While you might like ice-cream, others may not.
Thats the end of my jiberish rant. Now for the main point, and as I said, I hope you can open your mind for three minutes of your life.

"I would rather die a young man with a smile on my face than an old depressed man..."

Some people who do drugs such as cannabis wish no harm on others. They believe it as a part of life. But 'laws' make it hard for these people. I know a guy currently surving time in prison for selling drugs. he was caught with a few bars of hash. But a question you need to ask yourself is, is he a bad guy? He is distributing cannabis to people who want it. People claim drug dealers make money off other peoples misery. While this may be slightly true, why shouldn't they? The people they are selling to will/can get drugs somewhere else. Does it matter where they get it?

Even if people die from drugs that a drug dealer supplyed to them, its not the drug dealers fault. People need to start taking responsibility for their own actions. If I do mushi's tomorrow and jump off a building, its my fault, nobody elses. I knew the risks.

Some people wish to experience things in life, after all, we don't know if drugs are bad. They get some people through life believe it or not. Cannabis can help people through hard times. Why should there be a law saying that people cannot be in possession of these drugs.

I don't know if you believe in god. I don't go to mass, and I'm not a christian(or any religion, I believe nobody has the answer) but Jesus claimed god made every plant.

Drugs will always be everywhere. Nothing you or anybody else can do about that. Why should the police and many other people waste their time catching drug dealers/users while there are people killing people and robbing from people. Catch them instead.

Just because its popular to hate drugs, dosen't mean its right. People are been sent to jail for what they believe in. If I decide to become a Heroin addict, thats my buisness, nobody elses. Why should I be arrested for my beliefs?

And cannabis is not a gateway to other drugs. When people take cannabis people don't generally get into their heads while high to go and do LSD/Mushi's or even Heroin. They sit down and relax.
I drink, but I would consider Alcohol a gateway to other drugs. While drunk you lose your inhibitions. You might say to yourself while drunk "LETS DO DRUGS WHO CARES?". And while people are drunk, they experiment with drugs. Thats how I found cannibis. I don't want alcohol banned, I'm just been honest.

I don't believe drugs should have come into the law. Its a choice people make. If a person dies from drugs, yes it hurts alot of people around but its that person life. That person should be 'free' to make their own choices about what they do to themselves and their own bodys. We are not free... We are in a cage, been told what we can and can't do by people we have never met. Its wrong.

Although its other people's belief to stop other people from useing drugs, it should not be up to them. Some of us drug users wish to use drugs and not cause harm to others. If anything, the people making and inforcing these laws are what I would consider bad people. They are changing other people's lives against their will. They are no better than the common theif who robs a shop, they are affecting other people's lives in a bad way.

I have never posted on a political forum before... my post may not be very political, for that I am sorry but I think every persons situation should be investigated before judging them like the law does.
My situation is that I wish no harm to others, and I like to relax and be happy with my friends. Why is the law preventing that?

And today is a sad day... now another illigal drug. Magic Mushrooms have been made illigal today. To be in possession and to sell. I have never taken Magic Mushrooms yet but it anoys me that I cannot do another thing 'legally'. Freedom is dead and has been for a long time because of people with your views Maskhadov.

Signed,
Snake-