Cannabis to remain class C in the UK

meditraitor

Just showing that it is harmfull and not the miracle drug some of your comrades try to make it out to be

boogle wrote:

Classing this drug in the same league as heroin shows your naivety. (Or mine if you candisplay how heroin can be used with relative safety and without fear of recreational use damaging your life..)

read the thread, i was only using that analogy to show the fault in a previous post,,,,


and on another note, can you show proof for any of your points, it all looks like speculation to me, because I am sick of being the only one backing up my points with facts........

bar rubadub of course,the only person here to give decent and consice replies

Boggle

read the thread, i was only using that analogy to show the fault in a previous post,,,,

Which one - there are plenty of analogies. Point out the one and I will expand on this.

and on another note, can you show proof for any of your points, it all looks like speculation to me, because I am sick of being the only one backing up my points with facts........

Your getting desperate here buddy. Which point do you want me to elaborate? Don't think i amde any amazing allegations anywhere!

Let me see...

Yes... the point being?? Is this any different as to how alcohol/caffeine/any other recreational drug effects people? Does alcohol and caffeine not affect different parts of your brain? Sayiong something acts by effecting the brain is sensationalist so I was pointing out that this is how most drugs work...

Its called being stoned - not much news here... Do you disagree? Ever been stoned??


The key here is chronically exposed. Where do I need a link? I've provided my interpretation of the link that YOU provided. Refute my analysis if you like but quit with your smoke screens trying to deflect from the argument...

Boggle

read the thread, i was only using that analogy to show the fault in a previous post,,,,

Which one - there are plenty of analogies. Point out the one and I will expand on this.

and on another note, can you show proof for any of your points, it all looks like speculation to me, because I am sick of being the only one backing up my points with facts........

Your getting desperate here buddy. Which point do you want me to elaborate? Don't think i amde any amazing allegations anywhere!

Let me see...

Yes... the point being?? Is this any different as to how alcohol/caffeine/any other recreational drug effects people? Does alcohol and caffeine not affect different parts of your brain? Sayiong something acts by effecting the brain is sensationalist so I was pointing out that this is how most drugs work...

Its called being stoned - not much news here... Do you disagree? Ever been stoned??


The key here is chronically exposed. Where do I need a link? I've provided my interpretation of the link that YOU provided. Refute my analysis if you like but quit with your smoke screens trying to deflect from the argument...

meditraitor

Boggle wrote:

Which one - there are plenty of analogies. Point out the one and I will expand on this.

Your getting desperate here buddy. Which point do you want me to elaborate? Don't think i amde any amazing allegations anywhere!

Let me see...

Yes... the point being?? Is this any different as to how alcohol/caffeine/any other recreational drug effects people? Does alcohol and caffeine not affect different parts of your brain? Sayiong something acts by effecting the brain is sensationalist so I was pointing out that this is how most drugs work...

Its called being stoned - not much news here... Do you disagree? Ever been stoned??


The key here is chronically exposed. Where do I need a link? I've provided my interpretation of the link that YOU provided. Refute my analysis if you like but quit with your smoke screens trying to deflect from the argument...

What are trying to say here, is there a purpose to this reply?

What are trying to say here, is there a purpose to this reply?


Actualy no-dont reply
I dont think you understand the term debate, mixing it up with argument(different thing all together) and I bored with your constant personal attacks....

boggle wrote:

Is that what constitutes an argument these days? Obviously education in this country has gone down hill since I left school

boggle wrote:

You must really love your little bubble of self assuredness

boggle wrote:

Classing this drug in the same league as heroin shows your naivety.

again read the thread, I was just showing how idiotic on of the previous pro-dopes point was

bongle wrote:

Your getting desperate here buddy

Why would you even want to engage in an argument with a Naive, badly educated person who loves living in his little bubble of self assuredness

Hope this gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside


Oh edit again- I knew I had that deja-vu feeling

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054861456&page=8

samb

Why does this debate always come back to arguments about whether cannibas is bad or not? I think Meditraitor has comprehensively shown that there is considerable evidence to show that cannibas has harmful affects both short and long-term on the users mental and physical health.
That said, I think we must legalise. The following questions I think must be answered.

Why do we allow criminals to make a fortune from the trade of cannibas (killing in the process). Would legalising cannibas not reduce serious crime therefore?

How many more people would smoke cannibas if it was legalised? could we not make any rise minimal by education? As meditraitor has shown it is harmful, this could be communicated better to the public.

If the increase in use is not significant then surely legalisation is worth it, to put drug dealers out of business.

Gurgle

samb wrote:

If the increase in use is not significant then surely legalisation is worth it, to put drug dealers out of business.

They could also put accurate warnings on the packet
And a receipe for cookies, cancelling out most of the health effects from smoking it.

Boggle

Meditraitor, you really must be hard up for a decent argument.

You asked me for links - I was merely showing that my posts were based on your link and real life.

I dont think you understand the term debate, mixing it up with argument(different thing all together) and I bored with your constant personal attacks....

Argumenst are used in a debate to make your case. ???

again read the thread, I was just showing how idiotic on of the previous pro-dopes point was

What did I ask you last time?? It was a simple request... tell me which argument you were referring to as there sould be so many. At least then I can try to defend it.

Why would you even want to engage in an argument with a Naive, badly educated person who loves living in his little bubble of self assuredness

Because you are on of the people who believes I should be locked up because rather than going out getting hammered all the time i perfer the occasional joint.

samb wrote:

Why does this debate always come back to arguments about whether cannibas is bad or not? I think Meditraitor has comprehensively shown that there is considerable evidence to show that cannibas has harmful affects both short and long-term on the users mental and physical health.

Nobody thinks its harmless. The question is more of whether the risks invloved merit its illegal staus...

meditraitor

Boggle wrote:

Meditraitor, you really must be hard up for a decent argument.

Because you are on of the people who believes I should be locked up because rather than going out getting hammered all the time i perfer the occasional joint.


Nobody thinks its harmless. The question is more of whether the risks invloved merit its illegal staus...

This is not the first time you have entered into a debate without reading the thread gringo....
Read the thread and content.!

Although from previous exchanges with you I know you wont, so I will throw you this bone(to prove you didnt read the thread) from a post back up the page

meditraitor wrote:

That said I dont believe a person should be criminalised for using cannabis, the answer to this particular predicament is beyond me.

meditraitor

Gurgle wrote:

They could also put accurate warnings on the packet
And a receipe for cookies, cancelling out most of the health effects from smoking it.

And correct instructions for yogurts, type of oil to use etc:D

Gurgle

meditraitor wrote:

And correct instructions for yogurts, type of oil to use etc:D

Big warning on the front:
" FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS CAREFULLY - TOXIC FUMES MAR ARISE FROM BURNING THIS PRODUCT"

Catsmokinpot

Gurgle wrote:

hehe, the last retreat of the defeated - write the opponent off as an ill-informed teenager and go off in a huff.

I feel I must point out that this particular ill-informed teenager took an active part in the arguement on more than 3 of the previous threads, of which there have been many*, is 30 years old, spent 5 years of his 20s smoking pot on a daily basis(while at the same time persuing a successful career, continuing part time post-graduate education and raising a family) until deciding that his lungs could do with a break and quit without any mental or physical withdrawal symptoms. And while we're on the subject I am and have always been in extremely good health (mental and physical) and lack the beer-gut that many of my advanced age have built up over the last decade.

*none of which contained any convincing reason for pot to be illegal

lol i told him that already too!! there is no point in arguing with meditraitor, ive been smoking for a while now since i was quite young im 23 now, working in technical support for an ISP for the last two years, never been sacked from any job ive been in...... used to smoke every day, no mental illnesses, no cravings to kill anyone, get the munchies every now and again and play alot of playstation but thats about it.......................

Catsmokinpot

meditraitor wrote:

Effects on the Heart

One study has indicated that a user’s risk of heart attack more than quadruples in the first hour after smoking marijuana(8). The researchers suggest that such an effect might occur from marijuana’s effects on blood pressure and heart rate and reduced oxygen-carrying capacity of blood.

you know the biggest risk factor for heart problems is job dis-satisfaction, people who feel they have no meaning in life, do you know what time and what day most people have heartattacks? monday morning at 9 oclock. so by your logic we should all stop working because its dangerous for us..... more dangerous than cannabis!!! my source is dipak chopra world renound psychologist/doctor/scientist/philosopher at a lecture in harvard or berkley, i have it on tape sorry if i dont rush to find out where it was (and excuse me if i spelt the name wrong) omg wtf and so fourth.... cant help but think maybe if some of these people smoked a joint or two some of them might not have died from a heartattack......

meditraitor

Catsmokinpot wrote:

lol i told him that already too!! there is no point in arguing with meditraitor, ive been smoking for a while now since i was quite young im 23 now, working in technical support for an ISP for the last two years, never been sacked from any job ive been in...... used to smoke every day, no mental illnesses, no cravings to kill anyone, get the munchies every now and again and play alot of playstation but thats about it.......................

. you never made any good points before, but at least your consistant

catsmokingpot wrote:

you know the biggest risk factor for heart problems is job dis-satisfaction, people who feel they have no meaning in life, do you know what time and what day most people have heartattacks? monday morning at 9 oclock. so by your logic we should all stop working because its dangerous for us..... more dangerous than cannabis!!! my source is dipak chopra world renound psychologist/doctor/scientist/philosopher at a lecture in harvard or berkley, i have it on tape sorry if i dont rush to find out where it was (and excuse me if i spelt the name wrong) omg wtf and so fourth.... cant help but think maybe if some of these people smoked a joint or two some of them might not have died from a heartattack......

This is you all over, simplistic, I know this has nothing got to do with the debate but I think I should put you straight on the reasons for heart attacks...
Heart attacks occur for different reasons in different people, and for different combinations of reasons. Conditions such as Atherosclerosis, arteriosclerosis, High blood pressure and Diabetes increase risk; so does Stress and SMOKING, being male (though women are equally at risk after the Menopause), smoking, eating lots of refined carbohydrates and saturated fats, being overweight, doing a sedentary job, driving everywhere rather than walking, taking oral contraceptives (particularly over age of 35) if smokers, and living in areas where water is soft. Heredity also plays a part
and the fact that it is after nine o'clock on a monday morning must mean I live a content and healthy life.... or does it

One study has indicated that a user’s risk of heart attack more than quadruples in the first hour after smoking marijuana(8). The researchers suggest that such an effect might occur from marijuana’s effects on blood pressure and heart rate and reduced oxygen-carrying capacity of blood.

esskay

AFAIK, DuPont, the company with the patent on Lycra, were the major force behind the criminalisation of cannabis in America back in the 1920's. The politicans may have used the "its harmfull" argument but as usual a large corporate interest was being served. DuPont objected because of the manufacturing potential of the cannabis plant in the clothing and other industries, not because they gave a damn about peoples health.
I have been smoking daily for about 10 years, I went through college stoned, I got and held jobs stoned. If those who think it should be illegal don't like it, don't smoke it :-) I want to though, I like the effects and I know most of the ill effects. It's my choice, I made it, I take responsibility for the outcome whatever it may be. I may live a happy and full life, I may die of lung cancer, I may get killed on the roads or slip in the shower and die. One thing I will say, for those who live in Dublin, walking down a city centre street with cars and buses belching smoke can't be good for the auld lungs either. :-P

Gurgle

esskay wrote:

One thing I will say, for those who live in Dublin, walking down a city centre street with cars and buses belching smoke can't be good for the auld lungs either. :-P

Ah but its good for the economy and therefore the government.;)

Catsmokinpot

meditraitor wrote:

This is you all over, simplistic, I know this has nothing got to do with the debate but I think I should put you straight on the reasons for heart attacks... Heart attacks occur for different reasons in different people, and for different combinations of reasons. Conditions such as Atherosclerosis, arteriosclerosis, High blood pressure and Diabetes increase risk; so does Stress and SMOKING, being male (though women are equally at risk after the Menopause), smoking, eating lots of refined carbohydrates and saturated fats, being overweight, doing a sedentary job, driving everywhere rather than walking, taking oral contraceptives (particularly over age of 35) if smokers, and living in areas where water is soft. Heredity also plays a part
and the fact that it is after nine o'clock on a monday morning must mean I live a content and healthy life.... or does it

and this is you all over, i know what the reasons for heart attacks are, and i know the main cause of heart attacks is stress, caused by job dis-satisfaction, so how did you set me straight, your trying to tell us all that we should be scared of smoking because it causes heart problems and increases the risk of heart attack im telling you that work is a bigger thing to worry about than smoking a spliff..... get that in to your head.

smoking isnt the biggest risk you will ever take

if i have work to worry about, and i have to do it. why cant i have the choice to do something i want to do if im not hurting anyone??? should that not be my right?

its also a bit of a coincidence most people who have a heart attack do so at 9 o'clock on a monday morning (the beginning of the working week)

deepak chopra gave examples of why this is happens, your immune system eg. white bloodcells. leucocytes. etc. produce the same neuro peptides that your brain does when it thinks, which means they are thinking cells.

eg.the university of colorado did a study into this, they gave a bunch of mice a drug that boosted the immune system at the same time they let them smell kampfer, after a while they stopped giving them the immunity boosting drug and just let them smell the kampfer and their immune system boosted it self, the only factor in the ability to boost the immune system was the interpretation of the memory of smelling kampfer

so your immune system is constantly evesdropping in on your internal dialogue if you keep saying to yourself im having a **** day, my life is crap, im useless, youll develop physical problems.

an even bigger worry than smoking and working is iatrogenic disease - disease as a direct result of biotechnical medical intervention, (disease a person has because they just so happen to go and see a doctor) a study from the new-england journal of medicine showed that in one university hospital 36% of patients were suffering from iatrogenic disease.

oh but doctors know whats best dont they!!! so we should do what they say take their drugs, coz they know whats best for us, give me a break man get off your horse and wipe the crap dribbling from your mouth

dont get me wrong doctors have made huge strides in medical advancement, but i dont think government medical studies are completely unbiased. i think some of governments in this world have made a huge mistake on this issue and are either afraid to admitt it or just dont care.

alcohol is legal here because it was here first, its been here for years, and people have gotten attached to it. if it came in around the same time as hash did people wouldnt be so happy with what its done to us and how money it costs to repair damage done by drunk people every day.....

PTL

http://www.saferchoice.org/

I dont think anyone here with any experiance or knowledge about the subject would disagree that cannabis is the safer choice over alcohol.

What about you meditraitor do you think alcohol is a safer choice? Which one ruins more lives, which one kills more people wither it is car related or health related.

Theres even safer ways to consume cannabis, vaporizers or cooking with it ... theres no safer way to take alcohol.

I love the drug called alcohol and when the government trys to be a nanny about that and close offlicences on the international day of drinking everyone including myself gets pissed off.

Now meditraitor and the rest that are against it ... imagine how annoyed you would feel if they banned alcohol ... you would be saying how you use it correctly and so what if 500+ a year take there lives on it and 1500+ a year die from drink related illnesses and 120-150 a year die and kill inosent people drink driving... but that you can use it sensibly as can millions of other people ... and you would be dead right! Now imagine how cannabis smokers feel when ZERO people die from it per year and its banned

meditraitor

PTL wrote:

http://www.saferchoice.org/

I dont think anyone here with any experiance or knowledge about the subject would disagree that cannabis is the safer choice over alcohol.

What about you meditraitor do you think alcohol is a safer choice? Which one ruins more lives, which one kills more people wither it is car related or health related.

Theres even safer ways to consume cannabis, vaporizers or cooking with it ... theres no safer way to take alcohol.

I love the drug called alcohol and when the government trys to be a nanny about that and close offlicences on the international day of drinking everyone including myself gets pissed off.

Now meditraitor and the rest that are against it ... imagine how annoyed you would feel if they banned alcohol ... you would be saying how you use it correctly and so what if 500+ a year take there lives on it and 1500+ a year die from drink related illnesses and 120-150 a year die and kill inosent people drink driving... but that you can use it sensibly as can millions of other people ... and you would be dead right! Now imagine how cannabis smokers feel when ZERO people die from it per year and its banned

The fact that the pro dope lobby cant put a decent argument together to legalize it is a major factor here as well....:D

rubadub

meditraitor wrote:

The fact that the pro dope lobby cant put a decent argument together to legalize it is a major factor here as well....:D

That is relegalize, and there should be no need for an argument at all. What was the reason to make it illegal in the first place? was there a "decent argument". No illegalization argument could hold any water if it was to be treated the same as every other drug out there under the same criteria for legality/illegality.

Some people have this crazy notion that it must be proven to be totally benign with no potential for abuse. Well no drug on the planet is, so logically all drugs should be banned and nobody will have a decent argument for legalization.

samb

samb wrote:

Why does this debate always come back to arguments about whether cannibas is bad or not? I think Meditraitor has comprehensively shown that there is considerable evidence to show that cannibas has harmful affects both short and long-term on the users mental and physical health.
That said, I think we must legalise. The following questions I think must be answered.

Why do we allow criminals to make a fortune from the trade of cannibas (killing in the process). Would legalising cannibas not reduce serious crime therefore?

How many more people would smoke cannibas if it was legalised? could we not make any rise minimal by education? As meditraitor has shown it is harmful, this could be communicated better to the public.

If the increase in use is not significant then surely legalisation is worth it, to put drug dealers out of business.

Just feel like reposting this because I got little response. So-what if cannibas is a safer choice than alcohol. This argument should be about whether legalisation of cannibas would be good for society overall. I think cannibas smoking is generally a bad thing for society and its use should be reduced if possible. However, criminalisation of cannibas clearly does not achieve this. All it has produce is a lucrative business for criminal gangs, the consequences of which are evident in news daily. People are losing thier lives over this issue, and many are agruing that they must be allowed smoke cannibas because of some personal freedom.

meditraitor

samb wrote:

Just feel like reposting this because I got little response. So-what if cannibas is a safer choice than alcohol. This argument should be about whether legalisation of cannibas would be good for society overall. I think cannibas smoking is generally a bad thing for society and its use should be reduced if possible. However, criminalisation of cannibas clearly does not achieve this. All it has produce is a lucrative business for criminal gangs, the consequences of which are evident in news daily. People are losing thier lives over this issue, and many are agruing that they must be allowed smoke cannibas because of some personal freedom.

Dr. K. F. Gunning, president of the Dutch National Committee on Drug Prevention, cites some revealing statistics about drug abuse and crime. Cannabis use among students increased 250 percent from 1984 to 1992. During the same period, shootings rose 40 percent, car thefts increased 62 percent, and hold-ups rose 69 percent.

The liberalising of drug laws has an effect on society, just not the one I would want

rubadub

meditraitor wrote:

Dr. K. F. Gunning, president of the Dutch National Committee on Drug Prevention, cites some revealing statistics about drug abuse and crime. Cannabis use among students increased 250 percent from 1984 to 1992. During the same period, shootings rose 40 percent, car thefts increased 62 percent, and hold-ups rose 69 percent.

The liberalising of drug laws has an effect on society, just not the one I would want

Cannabis was tolerated in Holland since the 70's. I would like to see similar figures for european countries in that time 84-92. I honestly do not see how car thefts are related to cannabis. In other countries where crime rates have increased (most I presume) what do people point the finger at there? probably some other scapegoat.

Holland is on of the biggest ports in the world, the obvious central european hub for drug trafficking, whether their laws were lax or not. The lax laws mean it is the perfect port of choice so is totally favoured. The criminal gangs will live there and fight each other there, so no doubt crime is high.

If Ireland was one of the only countries in europe that tolerated tobacco there would be foreign criminal gangs operating here, and a higher murder rate. It is the very illegality that causes this. It would take all countries to adopt the same stance before that problem is dealt with.

Catsmokinpot

meditraitor wrote:

Dr. K. F. Gunning, president of the Dutch National Committee on Drug Prevention, cites some revealing statistics about drug abuse and crime. Cannabis use among students increased 250 percent from 1984 to 1992. During the same period, shootings rose 40 percent, car thefts increased 62 percent, and hold-ups rose 69 percent.

The liberalising of drug laws has an effect on society, just not the one I would want

you not think that has something to do with the governments liberal attitude to other drugs? i mean to be honest i cant imagine a thieving stoner. specially one to thieves to feed his habit which is the image you seem to be trying to project, now i can understand why kids might do it not knowing any better, but this is bad parenting, kids shouldnt be using drugs. thats not the fault of the drug its the fault of the parent for not being there when theyre needed, its so easy to blame drugs for peoples problems and faults nowadays, people will do anything other than admitt they are at fault.

samb

meditraitor wrote:

Dr. K. F. Gunning, president of the Dutch National Committee on Drug Prevention, cites some revealing statistics about drug abuse and crime. Cannabis use among students increased 250 percent from 1984 to 1992. During the same period, shootings rose 40 percent, car thefts increased 62 percent, and hold-ups rose 69 percent.

The liberalising of drug laws has an effect on society, just not the one I would want

Correlation is not the same as causation.
Besides, I am no advocate of simply decriminalisation or reclassification. This just means the criminals can sell it without much risk of prosecution. I don't favour it being a class C drug. If you have a law it needs to be enforced and enforcable.
What we need to do is regulate the supply. Crime in amersterdam is related to the ilegal trade in drugs, not its use. Heroin addicts will do anything for a fix, anything. We need clinics, where these people can get treatment for this serous disease they suffer from.

samb

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse the heroin issue with cannibas issue, they are very different.
Heroin causes crime from both dealers and users, users need treatment and either free clean heroin clinics or other drug to keep them from terrorising the rest of society.
Cannibas users do not engage in crime (above others) but they fuel crime with thier money. As I've said before, if you want to be a good citizen then grow weed and give it to stoners, put the criminal out of business. But Tolerating illegality is the stupidist tactic of all.

esskay

As an afterthought to my last post, I went travelling for a year in October. I have stopped smoking dope with no ill effects after being the heaviset smoker I know (10-20 j's a day). It's the cig's I can't give up

Gurgle

samb wrote:

Cannibas users do not engage in crime (above others) but they fuel crime with thier money.

I've often wondered how this worked exactly.
Surely the point in any crime is that it makes money ?
Do criminal gangs rely on their income from cannabis to commit 'pro-bono' crimes?

rubadub

Gurgle wrote:

I've often wondered how this worked exactly.
Surely the point in any crime is that it makes money ?
Do criminal gangs rely on their income from cannabis to commit 'pro-bono' crimes?

They are giving criminals money. The criminals are getting paid by otherwise law abiding citizens via the mark up on the drugs. The criminals will go to war with each other over who gets to sell them so will probably buy guns etc with the money, these can be rented out to bank robbers or used to kill other dealers. If there the drug sentences were increased they would go on selling more legal drugs, which they already do, trading in bootleg and stolen cigarettes and alcohol.
The criminals will then "invest" the money from ANY activity in further ones. i.e. make 20000 on selling hash/fags. Buy guns enough to rob a brinks van, get 500,000, buy more drugs. More guns bigger bank job, maybe a illicit distillery.

If a criminal works in a pub to make money to buy guns then you could just as easily say the drug trade is fuelling that criminal. He is dealing drugs and his boss gives him a % of the profits. Like any drug dealer but his is legally done.