Lord Laird

Snickers Man

It's not, or it shouldn't be, a startling revelation that cultural allegiances change down through the centuries. Yes, the 1798 rebellion in Northern Ireland, was largely Prespbyterian led and Presbyterians were strong supporters of the United Irishmen.

To vote or sit in parliament at the time, one had to take the Oath of Supremacy, which basically said that the ruling monarch was head of the Church in Britain. Roman Catholics could not take this oath, because it undermined the authority of the pope. Presbyterians wouldn't take this oath because they didn't believe there should be any such hierarchical church in the first place.

So the great great grandfathers of Paisley, McCrae etc etc etc were the political forefathers of the Provos. A great historical irony? Well maybe, but there have been many others. The British fought with their traditional enemy France against their German cousins in Two World Wars.

The West got into a permanent standoff with their most important ally, and the country that did most to defeat Hitler, namely the Soviet Union, after WWII ended.

If you look at the map of the spread of 'Ulster Scots' on the agency's website you will see that a large area where it is spoken is on the Derry Donegal Border. Sure, there are a lot of presbyterians around there but that area is heavily Catholic ie nationalist now. It may not be a language but as a dialect, and that is all it is at best, it transcends cultural allegiances. In some parts anyway.

And most Gaelic speakers in Scotland are presbyterian Rangers fans.

Kilsally

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Scots is a dialect of English and Ulster-Scots is a regional dialect of Scots therefore Ulster-Scots = a regional dialect of English

No a Scot speaking English with a Scots accents is a dialect of English. Scots is a West Germanic derived language. English and Scots can be traced back to West Germanic. Full blown Scots has a different grammatical structure to English and a vocabularly all of its own.

There are at least five Scots dialects:

* Northern Scots, spoken north of Dundee, often split into North Northern, Mid Northern—also known as North East Scots and affectionately referred to as "the Doric"—and South Northern.
* Central Scots, spoken from Fife and Perthshire to the Lothians and Wigtownshire, often split into North East and South East Central, West Central and South West Central Scots.
* South Scots, spoken in the border areas.
* Insular Scots, spoken in the Orkney Islands and Shetland Islands
* Ulster Scots, spoken by the descendants of Scottish settlers as well as those of Irish descent in Northern Ireland and County Donegal in the Irish Republic, and sometimes described by the neologism "Ullans", a conflation of Ulster and Lallans. However, in a recent article, Caroline Macafee, editor of The Concise Ulster Dictionary, stated that Ulster Scots was "clearly a dialect of Central Scots".

As well as the main dialects, Edinburgh, Dundee and Glasgow (see Glasgow patter) have local variations on an anglicised form of Central Scots. In Aberdeen, Mid Northern Scots is spoken.

Kilsally

[QUOTE=Snickers Man

If you look at the map of the spread of 'Ulster Scots' on the agency's website you will see that a large area where it is spoken is on the Derry Donegal Border. Sure, there are a lot of presbyterians around there but that area is heavily Catholic ie nationalist now. It may not be a language but as a dialect, and that is all it is at best, it transcends cultural allegiances. In some parts anyway.
.[/QUOTE]

No, what you hear nowadays is simply Ulster English dialect sprikled with Scots words. That is not "braid Scots", that is the remnants of it. There are very, very few areas that actually speak and use the "braid toungue". Not even Ballymena can be classed as such but some of the out lying villaged around there can be. As you say the language has influence the whole area regardless of politics or religion. However the Ulster-Scots Agency is also a cultural agency and the Scots cultural aspects were and still are largely found amongst the Presbyterians as opposed to the usually English Anglican and Irish Catholics although of course there are always people who change religion or marry into other denominations etc.

Kilsally

Not only is ulster-Scots / Scots legally recognised as a language now, it was also the official language of the Scottish courts and monarchy centuries ago.

Ulster Scots is defined in legislation (The North/South Co-operation (Implementation Bodies) Northern Ireland Order 1999) as: the variety of the Scots language which has traditionally been used in parts of Northern Ireland and in Donegal in Ireland [1].

The declaration made by the United Kingdom Government regarding the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages reads as follows: The United Kingdom declares, in accordance with Article 2, paragraph 1 of the Charter that it recognises that Scots and Ulster Scots meet the Charter's definition of a regional or minority language for the purposes of Part II of the Charter [2].

DCAL [4] describes Ulster Scots as a Germanic language and the local variety of the Scots language.

The Good Friday Agreement (which does not refer to Ulster Scots as a "language") also recognises Ulster Scots as "part of the cultural wealth of the island of Ireland", and the Implementation Agreement established the cross-border Ulster-Scots Agency (Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch), whose mission statement is to promote the study, conservation, development and use of Ulster Scots as a living language; to encourage and develop the full range of its attendant culture; and to promote an understanding of the history of the Ulster-Scots people. It will be noted that this is slightly different from the organisation's legal remit to promote Ulster Scots as a "variety of the Scots language".

Flex

Kilsally wrote:

No a Scot speaking English with a Scots accents is a dialect of English. Scots is a West Germanic derived language. English and Scots can be traced back to West Germanic. Full blown Scots has a different grammatical structure to English and a vocabularly all of its own.

What is the Scots on wikipedia? I wouldve presumed that would be actual 'Scots' (like on thast link to the Scottish parliament). As I posted already, I read through some articles writtin in Scots on wikipedia and I can usually understand the whole thing, its the exact same as English being spoken by a guy with a really strong Scottish accent and being spelt phoenetically (with the exception of the odd word here and there)

Flex

Kilsally wrote:

right, so who were the leaders of the United Irishmen? Erm the Presbyterians Scots planters. Who were they fighting against? The British / English / Irish ruling classes right? Where were they ruled from? not London but the Dublin parliament which was exclusively Anglican (Church of Ireland / England)...the act of Union did not occur until the early 1800`s. The United Irishmens rebellion occurred in 1798.

quote
. Shortly after the United Irishmen rebellion in 1798 the act of Union between Great Britian and Ireland occured.

Samuel Neilson, a Scots-Irish contemporary of Thompson and a founding father of the United Irishmen, remarked just prior to the Act of Union, "I see a union is determined on between Great Britain and Ireland. I am glad of it." Neilson accepted the Act of Union without shedding his sense of Irishness. He, like many other members of the Society of United Irishmen, became Irish Unionists because they saw in the union an end to the corrupt Ascendancy-based Dublin Government. Indeed this was the position of Sir Edward Carson, who was at heart an Irish Unionist. It is significant that at that time the Orange Order (which I think only accepted Anglican at that time) and the Anglo-Irish Protestant Ascendancy were bitterly anti-unionist.

Samuel Thompson, the Bard of Carngranny, expressed the position of eighteenth century Irish Presbyterians in the following verse: - "I love my native land, no doubt, Attach'd to her thro' thick and thin Yet tho' I'm Irish all without I'm every item Scotch within.".

What do you mean by that?

Snickers Man

Kilsally wrote:

No, what you hear nowadays is simply Ulster English dialect sprikled with Scots words. That is not "braid Scots", that is the remnants of it. There are very, very few areas that actually speak and use the "braid toungue".

Hey I'm no expert. I'm just going by the map available on the Ulster Scots Agency's own website.

And I am familiar with many of the words on the 'Test your knowledge' section on the same site as I grew up in that area myself.

I'm all for parity of esteem and rejoicing in the richness of local vernaculars. Where would the world of comedy be without Billy Connolly's word play on the Glasgow vernacular? But then, would Minder have been as funny if it didn't play so much on London Rhyming slang? And have you ever heard Gift Grub's hilarious sketch of Roy Keane on a phone in show translating the comments of a Cork caller into language that the rest of us could understand?

'Jaysus he was rank, boy'
(It was a below par performance)
'Manky out'
(very poor)
your stupid gimp starin' at me out of every window in Panna'
(My book is selling particularly well in Cork's main thoroughfare, Patrick St.)


But having 'taken the test' I can't believe that it's a separate language with its own grammar. Indeed, any grammatical peculiarities in the Ulster dialect, or indeed any Irish dialect, owe more to Gaelic than anything else.

eg 'Don't be doing that' --Na bi ag...etc etc
'I'm after doing ......' Ta me tar eis...etc etc

Flex

LostinBlanch wrote:

I know we've gone off thread slightly but what's next? A Dortspeak* agency? Well if Ulster Scots can get one then so should Glenageary roysh. Hands off guys the idea is mine, unless you know about raising grant money .

After much historical research it has come to light that Dortspeakers comprise a different cultural grouping which has been entirely ignored in favour of Tallaghtfornians, Ballybrackers and Northsiders (except Howth and Clontorf) and all boggers. Urgent action is being taken to redress this shameful state of affairs and we have been assured that the european parliament will take note of the existence of Dortspeak and include it in it's list of recognised languages. . . . .


*We can include Dublin 4 and 6 as far as Ranelagh in this even though they don't have the dort but they do have the Luas. And who's constituency is this? That's roysh Michael McDowell, Lord Lairds favourite TD. Funny how we got back to him isn't it?

Good idea!

Kilsally

Flex wrote:

What is the Scots on wikipedia? I wouldve presumed that would be actual 'Scots' (like on thast link to the Scottish parliament). As I posted already, I read through some articles writtin in Scots on wikipedia and I can usually understand the whole thing, its the exact same as English being spoken by a guy with a really strong Scottish accent and being spelt phoenetically (with the exception of the odd word here and there)

Some of it can be but that is not really braid Scots but modern renditions.

Scots words beginning with C

Ca' n a call
Cabbrach adj rapacious, lean.
Caber n a large pole / tree trunk.
Cack n excrement.
Ca'd v called.
Caddie n an errand-boy, a golfer's attendant.
Cadge v to shake or to carry.
Caip n the highest part.
Calker n a country blacksmith.
Calsay n sick, in bad health.
Calsay-paiker n a street-walker.
Candlemas n a Scottish holiday (Feb 2).
Cangle v to quarrel.
Canker v to sour, to put into a bad temper.
Cankersome adj bad tempered.
Cann n knowledge, ability.
Canna neg cannot.
Cannae neg cannot.
Cannily adv craftily.
Canny adj crafty, artful, clever.
Cantily adv cheerfully.
Canty adj lively, cheerful.
Cape n the highest part.
Cap out v (in drinking) to down it in one.
Capper n a spider.
Cappit adj ill tempered.
Carnaptious adj irritable.
Cast-by n a reject.
Catchie adj merry, likeable.
Catcht v caught.
Cat-wa' n a wall between two rooms.
Caul n a cold.
Chaft n the jaw.
Chalmer n a room.
Champ v to mash. n mashed potatoes.
Champers n mashed potatoes.
Changy adj fickle.
Channer n gravel.
Chap v to hit, to knock.
Chappie n a poltergeist, a 'loud' ghost.
Cheer n a chair.
Chice n choice.
Chizzel v to cheat.
Clabber n mud.
Clabby adj sticky, muddy.
Clachan n a village.
Clacker v to progress slowly, to creep.
Clacking n talking, gossiping.
Claes n clothes.
Clair adj clear.
Claiver n idle talk.
Clammer v to clamber, to climb.
Clarried adj covered in mud.
Clarty adj dirty.
Clash-ma-clavers n idle talk.
Clatter n loud talk, chatter.
Clatterbags n a gossip.
Claucht v to clutch.
Clay-cauld adj lifeless.
Cled adj clad.
Cleg n a gadfly that bites.
Cleugh n a narrow glen.
Clipe v to tell tales. n a tell-tale.
Clipwit n a sharp-tongued person.
Clish-ma-claver n idle talk.
Clomb v climbed.
Clothes-press n a clothes wardrobe.
Cluther v to conceal, to cover up.
Coal-heugh n a coal pit.
Cockle v to totter.
Cockle up v to improve in health.
Clammer v to clamber, to climb.
Cod v to tease, to sham. n a joker.
Codger n an old person, a 'character'.
Codgie adj comfortable, cosy.

LostinBlanch

Kilsally wrote:

hmm sounds like a blatant disregard for parity of esteem to me and just a whiff of supremacy.

None intended, but if you want to take offence I can't stop you.

Ulster-Scots is a dialect

That's exactly what most of the people on this thread have being saying, it is a dialect and not a language. Though it looks like you don't accept the word of Tha Boord o Ulster Scotch

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/language.asp. Hmmm, who to believe?

I suggest you read some Robert Burns

I wasn't aware that he was from the North :rolleyes: I always thought he was from Scotland. Any other world reknown "Ulster Scots" poets or writers then?

How about Field Marshall Montgomery Pipe Band from Lisburn? Ulster champs,, All-Ireland champs, Scottish Champs, British Champs, European champs and World Champs. That would be music.

Good for them, I think I saw a programme about them on UTV, the best Scottish Pipe Band in the world.

Dance well we can do Irish dancing and Scottish dancing as well as anyone else.
Shelley Anne Campbell (17), and Georgina Kee, (15), have only three years dancing experience but have come along 'leaps and bounds' to beat off competition from 90 other Scottish dancers and secure a place in the elite troop who will perform at this world renowned music and dance exhibition showcase event.

Again good for them but it is Scottish Highland dancing.

What I am talking about is that there seems to be a lack of indigenous "Ulster Scots" cultural achievements, and that any that I have seen or that you have mentioned here are Scottish rather than Ulster Scottish. There seems to be little strength in depth if you will.

As Smashey said

Basically I told them that a lot of people along the border here in Donegal would use some ulster scot phrases in normal conversation. However these people are for the most part nationalist minded and how did they factor that into the equation as the ulster scots society is predominantly unionist. He told me to form our own society and avail of any grants etc. that were available.

This is what I believe is a major factor behind "Ulster Scots", getting an equal share of any grant money going. I don't have any problem with that more with the presentation than anything else. Suddenly there is this instant language (just add water and grants) as an acceptable face for Unionist culture other than Lambeg drums, F**k The Pope fife and drum bands and marching "traditional" routes on the Queens highway. Can you imagine the uproar if these kind of bands got government grants?

Flex

LostinBlanch wrote:

I wasn't aware that he was from the North. Any other world reknown "Ulster Scots" poets or writers then?

He was from Scotland

What does it take to be an Ulster-Scot; whats the criteria or requirement? ie. I see alot of US Presidents and so on are claimed as ulster-scots simply because they were protestants from the north of Ireland. Is that it; Protestant from north of Ireland?

LostinBlanch

Flex wrote:

He was from Scotland

What does it take to be an Ulster-Scot; whats the criteria or requirement? ie. I see alot of US Presidents and so on are claimed as ulster-scots simply because they were protestants from the north of Ireland. Is that it; Protestant from north of Ireland?

I know he was from Scotland, maybe I'll go back and edit it to show that I was trying to be ironic.

Flex

LostinBlanch wrote:

I know he was from Scotland, maybe I'll go back and edit it to show that I was trying to be ironic.

I didnt put the ' ' smiley in there about your comment, it was about the whole Ulster scot connection thing with him when he wasnt an ulster scot

LostinBlanch

Fair enough then. I know he's Scottish but maybe that's good enough for Kilsally, then again maybe not. We'll see what he says.

smashey

LostinBlanch wrote:

Suddenly there is this instant language (just add water and grants)

Nice one

Kilsally

LostinBlanch wrote:

None intended, but if you want to take offence I can't stop you. That's exactly what most of the people on this thread have being saying, it is a dialect and not a language. Though it looks like you don't accept the word of Tha Boord o Ulster Scotch

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/language.asp. Hmmm, who to believe?

I wasn't aware that he was from the North :rolleyes: I always thought he was from Scotland. Any other world reknown "Ulster Scots" poets or writers then?

---

aye a dialect of Scots. Scots being the the exact same language used by Burns. Sure there are loads of "Ulster-Scots" poets. Never heard of the Rhyming Weavers or the likes of Samuel Thompson the bard of Carngranny?

Kilsally

LostinBlanch wrote:

None intended, but if you want to take offence I can't stop you.


What I am talking about is that there seems to be a lack of indigenous "Ulster Scots" cultural achievements, and that any that I have seen or that you have mentioned here are Scottish rather than Ulster Scottish. There seems to be little strength in depth if you will.

hmm could that be because they all came from Scotland 400 years ago! Nah. That wouldnt be why its called Ulster-Scots culture instead of just Ulster culture would it? Nah.

Kilsally

Flex wrote:

He was from Scotland

What does it take to be an Ulster-Scot; whats the criteria or requirement? ie. I see alot of US Presidents and so on are claimed as ulster-scots simply because they were protestants from the north of Ireland. Is that it; Protestant from north of Ireland?

erm no. religion doesnt come into it but in the vast majority of cases it involves Presbyterianism as Scotland had been converted to Presbyterians / Calvinism by John Knox. Ulster-Scots is simply someone whose ancestors moved from Scotland to Ireland (generally Ulster) usually during the plantations and in the case of the "Scots-Irish" in America these same folks also then moved to the States mostly due to the Test Acts which discriminated against Presbyterians and non-conformists. As stated earlier the language actually affected the whole area regardless of origins and religion.

Kilsally

Flex wrote:

I didnt put the ' ' smiley in there about your comment, it was about the whole Ulster scot connection thing with him when he wasnt an ulster scot

i did not say he was an ulster-scot i said he spoke scots or which ulster-scots is a dialect.

Kilsally

"Suddenly there is this instant language (just add water and grants)"

Your just showing ignorance here. There have been published Ulster-Scots works for centuries. The Rhyming Weavers

Rhyming Weavers: And Other Country Poets of Antrim and Down
http://www.blackstaffpress.com/catalogue/more.asp?book=176
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0856407577/202-9156547-8970269

The Scot in America and the Ulster Scot.
http://www.booksulster.com/bookstore.cgi?cart_id=4673274.2451&pid=26745&count=1
First published in 1911 and Belfast in 1912

Sons of the Sod: A Tale of County Down
http://www.booksulster.com/bookstore.cgi?cart_id=4673274.2451&pid=26555&count=1
reprint of 1890s original

Kilsally

The Hawk and Weazle
by Samuel Thompson (1766-1816), the bard of Carngranny

To town ae morn, as Lizie hie'd
To sell a pickle yarn, (pickle=a small amount of, some)
A wanton Whiteret she espy'd, (whiteret=weasel)
A sportin at a cairn. a cairn is a grave covered in a pile of stones
Alang the heath beskirted green,
It play'd wi' monie a wheel; (monie a wheel=many a spin/twirl)
She stood and dighted baith her een, (een=eyes)
An' thought it was the Diel (Diel=Devil)
She saw at freaks! (freak=A foolish fancy)

But soon her doubts were a' dismis't
A gled cam whist'ling by, (gled=kite,buzzard)
And seiz'd the weazle:- ere it wist, (ere=before, wist=wished)
'Twas halfway at the sky.
But soon the goss grew feeble like, (goss=goshawk)
And syne began to fa', (syne=then)
Till down he daded on a dyke, (daded=fell heavily, dyke=stone wall)
His thrapple ate in twa; (thrapple=windpipe, twa=two)
Let him snuff that.

The weazle aff in triumph walks,
An' left the bloodless glutton,
A warning sad to future hawks
That grien for weazle's mutton. (grien=long for)
So reprobates, that spitefu' cross, (spitefu' cross=maliciously)
Decree their nibour's ruin, (nibour=neighbour)
Are often forc'd, like foolish goss,
To drink o' their ain brewin',
Wha say its wrang.

Kilsally

Perhaps you might have caught the two programmes on tonight on BBC 2 Northern Ireland at 8pm and 8.30pm regarding Ulster-Scots.

Flex

Kilsally wrote:

Flex wrote:

erm no. religion doesnt come into it but in the vast majority of cases it involves Presbyterianism as Scotland had been converted to Presbyterians / Calvinism by John Knox. Ulster-Scots is simply someone whose ancestors moved from Scotland to Ireland (generally Ulster) usually during the plantations and in the case of the "Scots-Irish" in America these same folks also then moved to the States mostly due to the Test Acts which discriminated against Presbyterians and non-conformists. As stated earlier the language actually affected the whole area regardless of origins and religion.

Alot of my ancestory on my dads side of the family is Ulster (tyrone) presbyterian, so more than likely settlers, so do I qualify as an ulster-scot? My grandparents definitely wouldnt regard themselves as ulster-scots or british though, only Irish because they were born and raised in Ireland and not Britain/Scotland and they were republicans.

And how do you know so many Protestants from the north of Ireland who went to America regarded themselves as Scots-Irish (aka Ulster-Scots) or would want to be remembered as such, and not simply as Irish?

Kilsally

Flex wrote:

Kilsally wrote:

"Alot of my ancestory on my dads side of the family is Ulster (tyrone) presbyterian, so more than likely settlers, so do I qualify as an ulster-scot? My grandparents definitely wouldnt regard themselves as ulster-scots or british though, only Irish because they were born and raised in Ireland and not Britain/Scotland and they were republicans. "


That of course is their perogative but yes that would show ulster-scots heritage. i would however point out that being of ulster-scots extraction does not preclude Irishness or Britishness or both or all three in my opinion.

"And how do you know so many Protestants from the north of Ireland who went to America regarded themselves as Scots-Irish (aka Ulster-Scots) or would want to be remembered as such, and not simply as Irish?

"

Because there is a 100+ year old society in the states called the Scots-Irish Society.

The Scotch-Irish Society of the United States of America
Founded 1889
Purpose:

* The preservation of Scotch-Irish history,
* Keeping alive the esprit de corps of the Scotch-Irish as a people,
* Promotion of social intercourse and fraternal feeling among its members.

The Society is first and foremost American. It believes that it can broaden, deepen and enlarge the principles from which the nation has drawn the sustaining power for its development by recalling past achievements, remembrances and associations.

"Born and naturalized citizens, we give ourselves anew in this organization to the land for which our fathers and friends gave their blood and lives. We are not a band of aliens, living here perforce and loving the other land across the sea. We belong to this land, and only recall the old that we may better serve the new, which is our own."

Rev. John S. MacIntosh, 1890

In 1949 the Society organized the Scotch-Irish Foundation, a Pennsylvania non-profit corporation, to collect and preserve for public, educational and research use, books, documents, family histories, letters, journals, and historical material relating to the origin and history of the Scotch-Irish people in the United States, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Scotland, and elsewhere. The Foundation is also empowered to receive gifts and legacies, which are tax deductible.

The Foundation's historical collection is maintained in the Balch Institute of Ethnic Studies, 18 South Seventh Street, Philadelphia, PA 19106. The Society and the Foundation do not conduct research on individual family trees; neither does the Balch Institute.

The Society is non-sectarian, and non-political, and welcomes into the Society individuals possessing the qualifications for membership.
Membership:

Membership in the Society is available to United States Citizens and legal permanent residents of the United States, who are of Scotch-Irish descent. The Scotch-Irish Society and the Scotch-Irish Foundation consider that the term "Scotch-Irish" generically designates those persons who are descended in either the male or female line from an ancestor, or ancestors, who emigrated to America, directly or indirectly, from Ulster, and whose families , hailing from Scotland, Britain, France and other places in Europe , had previously settled in Ulster about the year 1600 or thereafter.

Associate membership (non voting) is available to any person who does not meet the membership requirements but who, nevertheless, understands and supports the objectives of the Society.

A Dub in Glasgo

Glasgow patter is like that funny accented stuff that is posted but it is hardly a language. Maybe it should be recognised as a language (after all, far more people speak it than Ulster-Scots!) but nah, it is just English with some changes/additions. Working class Dublin has it's own language as well.

Kilsally

If anybody recorded these please contact me.
regards
Alan

Celebrating Ulster-Scots On The Small Screen
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/story/25734

By Billy Kennedy

Wednesday 25th January 2006

Tonight BBC Northern Ireland screens a special series of programmes to mark the anniversary of Robert Burns and celebrate Scots and Ulster-Scots culture. In 'Iver Hantin Echas' on BBC-2 NI (8pm), Ulster-Scots author James Fenton marks the link with the past through his poetry, work that acknowledges a debt to weaver poet James Orr.
Along with James Fenton is Liam Logan, also from north Antrim, who emphasises that speakers of Ulster Scots are not always from one tradition. In the programme, produced by Chris Spurr, Jim and Liam travel from the slopes of Slemish to Dunloy village, where a new monument to cultural unity has inspired Jim's poem 'Stanes'. In Ballycarry, Co Antrim they hear of James Orr's worth as a writer, and then about poet Samuel Thomson, of Lyle's Hill. At Belfast's Linen Hall Library they discover original Ulster-Scots writing from the 1750s, and hear why Robert Burns is held in high regard. In Ballymena, they meet a kinsman of the last of the weaver poets, and in Bushmills they find an Ulster-Scots celebration cast in bronze. At his Co Antrim birthplace, Jim Fenton reads his poem 'Anither Wurl', while children from Balnamore Primary near Ballymoney demonstrate skills in the hamely tongue.

Also taking part are writers Charlie Gillen; Philip Robinson; Fiona McDonald and Willie Cromie; literary historians Linde Lunney, Rev John Nelson, and Ivan Herbison; school principal Jackie Morrison; Bushmills sculptor Ross Wilson; librarian John Gray and Scots-Irish group Ailsa. Continuing with BBC Northern Ireland's Ulster Scots/Burns Night special programming, Twa Lads o Pairts (BBC-2 8.30pm) captures the stories of Dervock poet Charlie Gillen and Mark Thompson, from the Low Country Boys band, based in Ballyhalbert, County Down. Both cross paths at Ballycarry's annual Broadisland Gathering in September, an Ulster-Scots event in the East-Antrim village where the first Irish Presbyterian congregation was formed in 1613.

For co-producer Roger Ford-Hutchinson, filming around Dervock was something of a homecoming, as his family hail from nearby Stranocum. Roger said: "Although my family moved away when I was only three, I still feel a strong connection to the place. It was a real journey of rediscovery for me.' The final programme in the Burns Night specials is a BBC Scotland documentary entitled Scunnered, screened tonight at 10.40pm on BBC1. It takes a comedic look at the idiosyncracies of language as used by the English and the Scots.

Kilsally

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Glasgow patter is like that funny accented stuff that is posted but it is hardly a language. Maybe it should be recognised as a language (after all, far more people speak it than Ulster-Scots!) but nah, it is just English with some changes/additions. Working class Dublin has it's own language as well.

As your link states glasgae patter is anglicised Scots. ie Scottish English with a few Scots words thrown in.

Ulster English which is the same. Neither are Braid Scots but rather the remanants.

Flex

Kilsally wrote:

Flex wrote:

"

Because there is a 100+ year old society in the states called the Scots-Irish Society.

The Scotch-Irish Society of the United States of America
Founded 1889
Purpose:

* The preservation of Scotch-Irish history,
* Keeping alive the esprit de corps of the Scotch-Irish as a people,
* Promotion of social intercourse and fraternal feeling among its members.

The Society is first and foremost American. It believes that it can broaden, deepen and enlarge the principles from which the nation has drawn the sustaining power for its development by recalling past achievements, remembrances and associations.

"Born and naturalized citizens, we give ourselves anew in this organization to the land for which our fathers and friends gave their blood and lives. We are not a band of aliens, living here perforce and loving the other land across the sea. We belong to this land, and only recall the old that we may better serve the new, which is our own."

Rev. John S. MacIntosh, 1890

In 1949 the Society organized the Scotch-Irish Foundation, a Pennsylvania non-profit corporation, to collect and preserve for public, educational and research use, books, documents, family histories, letters, journals, and historical material relating to the origin and history of the Scotch-Irish people in the United States, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Scotland, and elsewhere. The Foundation is also empowered to receive gifts and legacies, which are tax deductible.

The Foundation's historical collection is maintained in the Balch Institute of Ethnic Studies, 18 South Seventh Street, Philadelphia, PA 19106. The Society and the Foundation do not conduct research on individual family trees; neither does the Balch Institute.

The Society is non-sectarian, and non-political, and welcomes into the Society individuals possessing the qualifications for membership.
Membership:

Membership in the Society is available to United States Citizens and legal permanent residents of the United States, who are of Scotch-Irish descent. The Scotch-Irish Society and the Scotch-Irish Foundation consider that the term "Scotch-Irish" generically designates those persons who are descended in either the male or female line from an ancestor, or ancestors, who emigrated to America, directly or indirectly, from Ulster, and whose families , hailing from Scotland, Britain, France and other places in Europe , had previously settled in Ulster about the year 1600 or thereafter.

Associate membership (non voting) is available to any person who does not meet the membership requirements but who, nevertheless, understands and supports the objectives of the Society.

What about people born and dead long before that society was founded? And does that mean I qualify as an ulster-scot through my ancestory?

Kilsally

Flex wrote:

Kilsally wrote:

What about people born and dead long before that society was founded? And does that mean I qualify as an ulster-scot through my ancestory?

well apparently the term was first used in the 1600`s by Irish Presbyterians and Baptists

yes no doubt you have ulster-scots / scots ancestory

A Dub in Glasgo

Kilsally wrote:

As your link states glasgae patter is anglicised Scots. ie Scottish English with a few Scots words thrown in.

Ulster English which is the same. Neither are Braid Scots but rather the remanants.

Don't see much diference between what you call Braid Scots and Scots English. Is Scots English a language?