Lord Laird

Snickers Man

Kilsally wrote:

The Hawk and Weazle
by Samuel Thompson (1766-1816), the bard of Carngranny

To town ae morn, as Lizie hie'd
To sell a pickle yarn, (pickle=a small amount of, some)
A wanton Whiteret she espy'd, (whiteret=weasel)
A sportin at a cairn. a cairn is a grave covered in a pile of stones
Alang the heath beskirted green,
It play'd wi' monie a wheel; (monie a wheel=many a spin/twirl)
She stood and dighted baith her een, (een=eyes)
An' thought it was the Diel (Diel=Devil)
She saw at freaks! (freak=A foolish fancy)

Hmm,
Give me Rabbie Burns any day.

Twa Wives
(Robert Burns)

There was twa wives, and twa witty wives,
As e'er play'd houghmagandie, houghmagandie=shagging
And they coost oot, upon a time,
Out o'er a drink o brandy;
Up Maggie rose, and forth she goes,
An she leaves auld Mary flytin, flytin=complaining
And she farted by the byre-en'
For she was gaun a shi*en.

She farted by the byre-en',
She farted by the stable;
And thick and nimble were her steps
As fast as she was able:
Till at yon dyke-back the hurly brak, hurly=the runs
But raxin for some dockins, raxin=reaching
The beans and pease cam down her thighs, dockins=dock leaves
And she cackit a' her stockins.

I reckon he was a rugby player myself.

Snickers Man

By the way. Is there anybody from south of Monaghan who could NOT work out the meaning of that (ahem) song, especially with the translations of the dialect words given?

If that's Scots, it's the same as English, just with a strong dialect accent and bad spelling. The grammar is exactly the same, if a bit looser. That's all.

Kilsally

Consonants

Most consonants are usually pronounced much as in English but:

* c: /k/ or /s/, much as in English.
* ch: /x/, also gh. Medial 'cht' may be /ð/ in Northern dialects. loch (Lake), nicht (night), dochter (daughter), dreich (dreary), etc.
* ch: word initial or where it follows 'r' /tʃ/. airch (arch), mairch (march), etc.
* gn: /n/. In Northern dialects /gn/ may occur.
* kn: /n/. In Northern dialects /kn/ or /tn/ may occur. knap (talk), knee, knowe (knoll), etc.
* ng: is always /ŋ/.
* nch: usually /nʃ/. brainch (branch), dunch (push), etc.
* r: /r/ or /ɹ/ is always pronounced.
* s or se: /s/ or /z/.
* t: may be a glottal stop between vowels or word final. In Ulster dentalised pronunciations may also occur, also for 'd'.
* th: /ð/ or /θ/ much as is English. Initial 'th' in thing, think and thank, etc. may be /h/.
* wh: usually /ʍ/, older /xʍ/. Northern dialects also have /f/.
* wr: /wr/ more often /r/ but may be /vr/ in Northern dialects. wrack (wreck), wrang (wrong), write, wrocht (worked), etc.
* z: /jɪ/ or /ŋ/, may occur in some words as a substitute for the older <ȝ> (yogh). For example: brulzie (broil), gaberlunzie (a beggar) and the names Menzies, Finzean, Culzean, MacKenzie etc. (As a result of the lack of education in Scots, MacKenzie is now generally pronounced with a /z/ following the perceived realisation of the written form, as more controversially is sometimes Menzies.)

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Silent letters

* The word final 'd' in nd and ld: but often pronounced in derived forms. Sometimes simply 'n' and 'l' or 'n'' and 'l''. auld (old), haund (hand), etc.
* 't' in medial cht: ('ch' = /x/) and st and before final en. fochten (fought), thristle (thistle) also 't' in aften (often), etc.
* 't' in word final ct and pt but often pronounced in derived forms. respect, accept, etc.

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Vowels

In Scots, vowel length is usually conditioned by the Scots vowel length rule. Words which differ only slightly in pronunciation from Scots English are generally spelled as in English. Other words may be spelt the same but differ in pronunciation, for example: aunt, swap, want and wash with /a/, bull, full v. and pull with /ʌ/, bind, find and wind v., etc. with /ɪ/.

* The unstressed vowel /ə/ may be represented by any vowel letter.
* a: usually /a/ but in south west and Ulster dialects often /ɑ/. Note final a in awa (away), twa (two) and wha (who) may also be /ɑ/ or ɔ/ or /e/ depending on dialect.
* au, aw and sometimes a, a' or aa: /ɑː/ or /ɔː/ in Southern, Central and Ulster dialects but /aː/ in Northern dialects. The cluster 'auld' may also be /ʌul/ in Ulster. aw (all), cauld (cold), braw (handsome), faw (fall), snaw (snow), etc.
* ae, ai, a(consonant)e: /e/. Often /ɛ/ before /r/. In Northern dialects the vowel in the cluster -'ane' is often /i/. brae (slope), saip (soap), hale (whole), ane (one), ance (once), bane (bone), etc.
* ea, ei, ie: /iː/ or /eː/ depending on dialect. /ɛ/ may occur before /r/. Root final this may be /əi/ in Southern dialects. In the far north /əi/ may occur. deid (dead), heid (head), meat (food), clear, speir (enquire), sea, etc.
* ee, e(Consonant)e: /iː/. Root final this may be /əi/ in Southern dialects. ee (eye), een (eyes), steek (shut), here, etc.
* e: /ɛ/. bed, het (heated), yett (gate), etc.
* eu: /(j)u/ or /(j)ʌ/ depending on dialect. Sometimes erroneously 'oo', 'u(consonant)e', 'u' or 'ui'. beuk (book), ceuk (cook), eneuch (enough), leuk (look), teuk (took), etc.
* ew: /ju/. In Northern dialects a root final 'ew' may be /jʌu/. few, new, etc.
* i: /ɪ/, but often varies between /ɪ/ and /ʌ/ especially after 'w' and 'wh'. /æ/ also occurs in Ulster before voiceless consonants. big, fit (foot), wid (wood), etc.
* i(consonant)e, y(consonant)e, ey: /əi/ or /aɪ/. 'ay' is usually /e/ but /əi/ in ay (yes) and aye (always). In Dundee it is noticeably /ɛ/.
* o: /ɔ/ but often /o/.
* oa: /o/.
* ow, owe (root final), seldom ou: /ʌu/. Before 'k' vocalisation to /o/ may occur especially in western and Ulster dialects. bowk (retch), bowe (bow), howe (hollow), knowe (knoll), cowp (overturn), yowe (ewe), etc.
* ou, oo, u(consonant)e: /u/. Root final /ʌu/ may occur in Southern dialects. cou (cow), broun (brown), hoose (house), moose (mouse) etc.
* u: /ʌ/. but, cut, etc.
* ui, also u(consonant)e, oo: /ø/ in conservative dialects. In parts of Fife, Dundee and north Antrim /e/. In Northern dialects usually /i/ but /wi/ after /g/ and /k/ and also /u/ before /r/ in some areas eg. fuird (ford). Mid Down and Donegal dialects have /i/. In central and north Down dialects /ɪ/ when short and /e/ when long. buird (board), buit (boot), cuit (ankle), fluir (floor), guid (good), schuil (school), etc. In central dialects uise v. and uiss n. (use) are [jeːz] and [jɪs].

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Suffixes

* Negative na: /ɑ/, /ɪ/ or /e/ depending on dialect. Also 'nae' or 'y' eg. canna (can't), dinna (don't) and maunna (mustn't).
* fu (ful): /u/, /ɪ/, /ɑ/ or /e/ depending on dialect. Also 'fu'', 'fie', 'fy', 'fae' and 'fa'.
* The word ending ae: /ɑ/, /ɪ/ or /e/ depending on dialect. Also 'a', 'ow' or 'y', for example: arrae (arrow), barrae (barrow) and windae (window), etc.

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Some grammar features

Not all of these are exclusive to Scots and may also occur in other Anglic varieties.
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The definite article

The is used before the names of seasons, days of the week, many nouns, diseases, trades, occupations, sciences and academic subjects. It is also often used in place of the indefinite article and instead of a possessive pronoun: the hairst (autumn), the Wadensday (wednesday), awa til the kirk (off to church), the nou (at the moment), the day (today), the haingles (influenza), the Laitin (Latin), The deuk ett the bit breid (The duck ate a piece of bread), the wife (my wife) etc.
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Nouns

Nouns usually form their plural in -(e)s but some irregular plurals occur: ee/een (eye/eyes), cauf/caur (calf/calves), horse/horse (horse/horses), cou/kye (cow/cows), shae/shuin (shoe/shoes). Nouns of measure and quantity unchanged in the plural fower fit (four feet), twa mile (two miles), five pund (five pounds), three hunderwecht (three hundredweight). Regular plurals include laifs (loaves), leafs (leaves), shelfs (shelves) and wifes (wives), etc.
[edit]

Kilsally

Diminutives

Diminutives in -ie, burnie small burn (brook), feardie/feartie (frightened person, coward), gamie (gamekeeper), kiltie (kilted soldier), postie (postman), wifie (woman), rhodie (rhododendron), and also in -ock, bittock (little bit), playock (toy, plaything), sourock (sorrel) and Northern –ag, bairnag (little) bairn (child), Cheordag (Geordie), -ockie, hooseockie (small house), wifeockie (little woman), both influenced by the Scottish Gaelic diminutive -ag (-óg in Irish Gaelic).
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Modal verbs

The modal verbs mey (may), ocht tae (ought to), and sall (shall), are no longer used much in Scots but occurred historically and are still found in anglicised literary Scots. Can, shoud (should), and will are the preferred Scots forms. Scots employs double modal constructions He'll no can come the day (He won't be able to come today), A micht coud come the morn (I may be able to come tomorrow), A uised tae coud dae it, but no nou (I could do it once, but not now).
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Present tense of verbs

The present tense of verbs ends in -s in all persons and numbers except when a single personal pronoun is next to the verb, Thay say he's ower wee, Thaim that says he's ower wee, Thir lassies says he's ower wee (They say he's too small), etc. Thay're comin an aw but Five o thaim's comin, The lassies? Thay've went but Ma brakes haes went. Thaim that comes first is serred first (Those who come first are served first). The trees growes green in the simmer (The trees grow green in summer).

Wis 'was' may replace war 'were', but not conversely: You war/wis thare.
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Past tense of verbs

The regular past form of the verb is -(i)t or -(e)d, according to the preceding consonant or vowel hurtit, skelpit (smacked), Mendit, kent/kenned (knew/known), cleant/cleaned, scrieved (scribbled), telt/tauld (told), dee'd (died). Some verbs have distinctive forms: greet/grat/grutten (weep/wept), fesh/fuish/fuishen (fetch/fetched), lauch/leuch/lauchen~leuchen (laugh/laughed), thrash/thruish/thrashen~thruishen (thresh/threshed), wash/wuish/washen~wuishen (wash/washed), gae/gaed/gane (go/went/gone), gie/gied/gien (give/gave/given), pit/pat/pitten (put/put/put/), git/gat/gotten (get/got/got(ten)), ride/rade/ridden (ride/rode/ridden), drive/drave/driven~dreen (drive/drove/driven), write/wrat(e)/written (write/wrote/written), bind/band/bund (bind/bound/bound), find/fand/fund (find/found/found), fecht/focht/fochten (fight/fought), bake/bakit~beuk/baken (bake/baked), tak(e)/teuk/taen (take/took/taken), chuse/chusit/chusit (choose/chose/chosen).
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Word order

Scots prefers the word order He turnt oot the licht to 'He turned the light out' and Gie me it to 'Give it to me'.

Certain verbs are often used progressively He wis thinkin he wad tell her, He wis wantin tae tell her.

Verbs of motion may be dropped before an adverb or adverbial phrase of motion A'm awa tae ma bed, That's me awa hame, A'll intae the hoose an see him.
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Ordinal numbers

Ordinal numbers ending in -t seicont, fowert, fift, saxt—(second, fourth, fifth, sixth) etc. first, Thrid/third—(first, third).
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Adverbs

Adverbs are usually of the same form as the verb root or adjective especially after verbs. Haein a real guid day (Having a really good day). She's awfu fauchelt (She's awfully tired).
Adverbs are also formed with -s, -lies, lins, gate(s)and wey(s) -wey, whiles (at times), mebbes (perhaps), brawlies (splendidly), geylies (pretty well), aiblins (perhaps), airselins (backwards), hauflins (partly), hidlins (secretly), maistlins (almost), awgates (always, everywhere), ilkagate (everywhere), onygate (anyhow), ilkawey (everywhere), onywey(s) (anyhow, anywhere), endweys (straight ahead), whit wey (how, why).
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Subordinate clauses

Verbless subordinate clauses introduced by an and expressing surprise or indignation She haed tae walk the hale lenth o the road an her sieven month pregnant, He telt me tae rin an me wi ma sair leg (and me with my sore leg).
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Negation

Negation occurs by using the adverb no, in the North East nae, as in A'm no comin (I'm not coming), or by using the suffix -na (pronunciation depending on dialect), as in A dinna ken (I don't know), Thay canna come (They can't come), We coudna hae telt him (We couldn't have told him), and A hivna seen her (I haven't seen her). The usage with no is preferred to that with -na with contractable auxiliary verbs like -ll for will, or in yes no questions with any auxiliary He'll no come and Did he no come?
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Relative pronoun

The relative pronoun is that ('at is an alternative form borrowed from Norse but can also be arrived at by contraction) for all persons and numbers, but may be left out Thare's no mony fowk (that) leeves in that glen (There aren't many people who live in that glen). The anglicised forms wha, wham, whase 'who, whom, whose', and the older whilk 'which' are literary affectations; whilk is only used after a statement He said he'd tint it, whilk wis no whit we wantit tae hear. The possessive is formed by adding 's or by using an appropriate pronoun The wifie that's hoose gat burnt, the wumman that her dochter gat mairit; the men that thair boat wis tint.

A third adjective/adverb yon/yonder, thon/thonder indicating something at some distance D'ye see yon/thon hoose ower yonder/thonder? Also thae (those) and thir (these), the plurals of this and that.

In Northern Scots this and that are also used where "these" and "those" would be in Standard English.

Kilsally

I think you will find there are more differences between English and Scots than say Dutch and Flemish.

LostinBlanch

Never mind the quality, feel the width. :rolleyes:

LostinBlanch

Kilsally wrote:

Flex wrote:

"

Because there is a 100+ year old society in the states called the Scots-Irish Society.

The Scotch-Irish Society of the United States of America
Founded 1889
Purpose:

* The preservation of Scotch-Irish history,
* Keeping alive the esprit de corps of the Scotch-Irish as a people,
* Promotion of social intercourse and fraternal feeling among its members.

One of the Ulster Scots "gifts" to the American people apparently was the formation of the Klu Klux Klan.

LostinBlanch

Kilsally wrote:

aye a dialect of Scots.

You're still in conflict with tha boord o Ulster Scots which if you are correct remains under the delusion that Ulster Scots is actually a distinct language other than a dialect as I have been arguing all along. We seem to be in agreement on this point :eek:

smashey

Jaysus Kilsally. You don't half go on.

Flex

Kilsally wrote:

Flex wrote:

well apparently the term was first used in the 1600`s by Irish Presbyterians and Baptists

yes no doubt you have ulster-scots / scots ancestory

I thought it was used after the Great Famine by protestant-Irish going to the US.

And how do I have ulster scots ancestory when my ancestors all regarded themselves as irish. Thats what i meant when i asked about the famous people who are regarded or claimed as being of scots-irish decsent in the past when so many couldve happily called themselves irish because they were born and raised in ireland as their parents and grandparents and so on may have been

murphaph

Whilst not calling into question any cultural implications Ulster Scots may have with ulster protestants or whatever-Ulster Scots is not a language in my non-linguistically trained eye. I read that Sottish Parliament link kindly provided by ADIG. I felt embarrased for the scots reading that gibberish tbh and if I saw a similar page on the Dublin City Council website I'd be pretty pissed off at the waste of money.

Us dubs have plenty of expressions but they aren't considered even a dialect of english, just an accent with a few expressions. The only word on that page that wasn't recognisable as a mis-spelled english word was here;

Gin ye wid like mair information anent the Scottish Pairlament, ye can scrieve til us, in ony leid, by post, email or fax.

'Scrieve' being obviously taken from gallic (I presume) as it's 'scriobh' (sorry-can't do fadas on my computer!) in irish and a 'bh' at the end of a word is proounced like a 'v' in english.

oscarBravo

murphaph wrote:

'Scrieve' being obviously taken from gallic (I presume)

It's not a million miles away from the latin origins of words such as "scribe" either.

murphaph wrote:

sorry-can't do fadas on my computer!

Doesn't AltGr-vowel produce an accented letter for you? Works here - ÁáÉéÍíÓóÚú - in Linux, and I know it worked in Windows on this computer also.

Nuttzz

Listening to Lord Laird on the last word last night, he seems to be under the misguided impression that everyone in the south wants a united ireland.....

LostinBlanch

Nuttzz wrote:

Listening to Lord Laird on the last word last night, he seems to be under the misguided impression that everyone in the south wants a united ireland.....

What and have the likes of him, Big Iain & other bigots? I don't think so.

Kilsally

LostinBlanch wrote:

You're still in conflict with tha boord o Ulster Scots which if you are correct remains under the delusion that Ulster Scots is actually a distinct language other than a dialect as I have been arguing all along. We seem to be in agreement on this point :eek:

Depends. Flemish and Dutch are nigh identical aka Ulster-Scots and Scots. I would be of the opinion Ulster-Scots is a dialect of Scots. Scots being a language. However in Ireland that language is called Ulster-Scots due to geography and politics may indeed be construed as a seperate language aka Flemish.

Kilsally

Flex wrote:

Kilsally wrote:

I thought it was used after the Great Famine by protestant-Irish going to the US.

no there was a wave of Presbyterians left for the states well before the famine due to the test act.

Kilsally

murphaph wrote:

Whilst not calling into question any cultural implications Ulster Scots may have with ulster protestants or whatever-Ulster Scots is not a language in my non-linguistically trained eye. I read that Sottish Parliament link kindly provided by ADIG. I felt embarrased for the scots reading that gibberish tbh and if I saw a similar page on the Dublin City Council website I'd be pretty pissed off at the waste of money.

Us dubs have plenty of expressions but they aren't considered even a dialect of english, just an accent with a few expressions. The only word on that page that wasn't recognisable as a mis-spelled english word was here;

'Scrieve' being obviously taken from gallic (I presume) as it's 'scriobh' (sorry-can't do fadas on my computer!) in irish and a 'bh' at the end of a word is proounced like a 'v' in english.

aye some of the modern written stuff is a bit silly. it has been a spoken language more than a written language with no actual correct way of spelling words. for instance I have seen scundered, scunnered, scundert...all the same word pronounced and/or written slightly different in different areas.

Kilsally

[QUOTE=murphaph'Scrieve' being obviously taken from gallic (I presume) as it's 'scriobh' (sorry-can't do fadas on my computer!) in irish and a 'bh' at the end of a word is proounced like a 'v' in english.[/QUOTE]


and "leid" meaning language.
Aefauldly =Sincerely Fair faw = Best/good wishes

suggest you visit to see the vocuabulary section..at the end of the day however language or dialect, the language of Burns is a linguistic treasure that should not be lost.
http://www.scots-online.org/

Everyday speech in lowland Scotland varies from speaker to speaker. This is often referred to as a speech continuum. This continuum ranges from Traditional Scots, often called Braid Scots, the Doric, the Buchan Claik or the Moray Claik and Lallans (Lowlands) - to Scottish Standard English. Thus many people in Scotland have access to the features of two linguistic systems and are able to range from one to the other according to the demands of the situation in which they find themselves. Such decisions are usually based on stylistic and contextual factors, the use of Scots being far more likely among the working-class and older rural people, especially those whose exposure to the anglicizing endeavors of the Scottish education system has not been longer than necessary.

This web site concentrates wholly on the Traditional Scots end of this speech continuum. This includes archaic, and some obsolete vocabulary which has been replaced by standard English equivalents. Such vocabulary is still used in literary Scots.

Kilsally

Ulster's 'Braveheart' on rebel hunt
http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/Sunday_Tribune/arts2006/jan22_Ulsters_Braveheart__SBreen.php

(by Suzanne Breen, Sunday Tribune)

Flex

Kilsally wrote:

Flex wrote:

no there was a wave of Presbyterians left for the states well before the famine due to the test act.

I know loads of Presbyterians left Ireland prior to the Famine for the US, but my point was that most of those people didnt bother or didnt want to be known as anything other than Irish until Catholics started going to the State en masse during the Famine. After that in order to distinguish themselves from Catolic Irish, Protestant Irish folks who went to the US after the mid 1800's and some who had been in the states longer, called themselves Scots-Irish. However the vast majority were and still are happy claiming Irish ancestory

murphaph

Kilsally wrote:

at the end of the day however language or dialect, the language of Burns is a linguistic treasure that should not be lost.

Yeah I'd agree. It has a certain charm to me too and I have no connection to it.

Kilsally wrote:

Everyday speech in lowland Scotland varies from speaker to speaker. This is often referred to as a speech continuum. This continuum ranges from Traditional Scots, often called Braid Scots, the Doric, the Buchan Claik or the Moray Claik and Lallans (Lowlands) - to Scottish Standard English. Thus many people in Scotland have access to the features of two linguistic systems and are able to range from one to the other according to the demands of the situation in which they find themselves. Such decisions are usually based on stylistic and contextual factors, the use of Scots being far more likely among the working-class and older rural people, especially those whose exposure to the anglicizing endeavors of the Scottish education system has not been longer than necessary.

This is exactly the same as in modern day Germany/Switzerland/Austria. The german we're taught at school is called Hochdeutsch (high or standard german) and it happens to be a dialect used around Hannover in northern Germany but it really could have been any dialect. The german speaking countries have hundreds of regional dialects and a person from Berlin would not be able to understand a person from Basel speaking in their local dialects. Germans switch to Hochdeutsch when speaking to other germans from far away or when speaking to foreigners. These regional dialects are just dialects though, even though they are not mutually intelligible and have their own words and modified spellings for common words. To me, geordie and scots are dialects of northern British english, just like Schwabisch (Swabian) or Bayerisch (Bavarian) are dialects of southern german German.

Like yo say though, dialect or language it's not important. It's culturally important to maintain it. I love all the accents on these islands-it's cool how many we have compared to the new world countries.

A Dub in Glasgo

Yes but Ulster Scots is not a language. Scots is not a language. It is a regional variation, a dialect. Let's not build something up that it ain't. I showed some work colleauges the Scottish Parliament website and the Ulster-Scots website. They were majorly embarrassed at the pretence that they were languages and tax payers money was spent on them. The vast majority of people in Scotland that I know see 2 languages in use in Scotland, English & Gaelic.. much like Ireland.

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Yes but Ulster Scots is not a language. Scots is not a language. It is a regional variation, a dialect. Let's not build something up that it ain't.

I didn't think I was. I said I thought them to be dialects/accents but not languages.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I showed some work colleauges the Scottish Parliament website and the Ulster-Scots website. They were majorly embarrassed at the pretence that they were languages and tax payers money was spent on them. The vast majority of people in Scotland that I know see 2 languages in use in Scotland, English & Gaelic.. much like Ireland.

....and Chinese and Polish and Czech and French and Spanish and Bantu and and and.....Far more native chinese speakers in Ireland than native Irish speakers these days! Far more than two languages in use in the British Isles today!

Flex

murphaph wrote:

Far more than two languages in use in the British Isles today!

Thats right! and theres far more than 2 languages in use over here in Ireland aswel these days!

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote:

I didn't think I was. I said I thought them to be dialects/accents but not languages.

You are not your usual self in pointing out that a poster is incorrect in stating something. Kilsally is incorrect in stating that Ulster-Scots (or Scots) is a language but you skirt around and say that US as a dialect is fine but not mention that they have recieved taxpayers money to promote something that is merely a dialect. Working class Dub speak is just as valid

....and Chinese and Polish and Czech and French and Spanish and Bantu and and and.....Far more native chinese speakers in Ireland than native Irish speakers these days! Far more than two languages in use in the British Isles today!

nah, can't say the Scottish guys I work with associate themselves more towards Chinese, Polish, Czech, French or Spanish than Scots. they are quite clear that they regard Gaelic & English as the languages that they developed from. What is your point again?

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You are not your usual self in pointing out that a poster is incorrect in stating something. Kilsally is incorrect in stating that Ulster-Scots (or Scots) is a language but you skirt around and say that US as a dialect is fine but not mention that they have recieved taxpayers money to promote something that is merely a dialect. Working class Dub speak is just as valid

I'm not skirting around anything. I just don't really care that US has received funding from the british exchequer so it never formed part of my post. It's got nothing to do with me what the mandarins in Whitehall want to do with their money.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

nah, can't say the Scottish guys I work with associate themselves more towards Chinese, Polish, Czech, French or Spanish than Scots. they are quite clear that they regard Gaelic & English as the languages that they developed from.

That's not what you said previously. You said;

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The vast majority of people in Scotland that I know see 2 languages in use in Scotland, English & Gaelic

and I simply pointed out that you're more likely to hear one of the languages I mentioned than Gaelic being spoken in Scotland. You're spoiling for a fight here ADIG even though we actually agree in principle on this issue :eek:. Chill :cool:

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote:

I'm not skirting around anything. I just don't really care that US has received funding from the british exchequer so it never formed part of my post. It's got nothing to do with me what the mandarins in Whitehall want to do with their money.


That's not what you said previously. You said;


and I simply pointed out that you're more likely to hear one of the languages I mentioned than Gaelic being spoken in Scotland. You're spoiling for a fight here ADIG even though we actually agree in principle on this issue :eek:. Chill :cool:

I am never spoiling for a FIGHT

I have heard Gaelic (or Gaelic phrases) being spoken more often than any other language other than english. It may have something to do with the fact that I work for the railway and get to visit a lot of places that are remote to the Central belt.

Kilsally

Flex wrote:

Kilsally wrote:

I know loads of Presbyterians left Ireland prior to the Famine for the US, but my point was that most of those people didnt bother or didnt want to be known as anything other than Irish until Catholics started going to the State en masse during the Famine. After that in order to distinguish themselves from Catolic Irish, Protestant Irish folks who went to the US after the mid 1800's and some who had been in the states longer, called themselves Scots-Irish. However the vast majority were and still are happy claiming Irish ancestory

I never said they weren`t. It is perfectly possibly to be Ulster-Scots, Irish and indeed British all at the same time. The example that springs to mind is LT Col. Blair (Paddy) Mayne of Ulster-Scots extraction who co-founded the SAS in the British Army and played Rugby for Ireland.

Kilsally

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You are not your usual self in pointing out that a poster is incorrect in stating something. Kilsally is incorrect in stating that Ulster-Scots (or Scots) is a language but you skirt around and say that US as a dialect is fine but not mention that they have recieved taxpayers money to promote something that is merely a dialect. Working class Dub speak is just as

No I am not incorrect. Scots is a recongnised language in European law, recongnised by the Scottish parliament and recognised by the North-South language bodies that were implemented under the Good Friday Agreement.

Some have classes Ulster-Scots as a seperate language to Scots which I do not agree with. However the point is not that the two are different but more to do with politics and geography.

"But - What is a language?

"A language is a collection of mutually intelligible dialects" - A definition which conveniently characterises a dialect as a subpart of a language, and provides a criteria for distinguishing between one language and another.

Take for example, the Scandinavian languages, Norwegian, Swedish and Danish. These are usually assumed to be different languages. Speakers of these three languages can, with little effort, understand and communicate with one another. These languages are mutually intelligible.
Take for example German, assumed to be a single language. There are varieties of German which are not understood by speakers of other varieties.

What does the above prove? One thing for certain - 'language' is not a particularly linguistic notion at all. The reason why Norwegian, Swedish, Danish and German are thought of as single languages has as much to do with political, geographical, historical, sociological and cultural reasons, as with linguistic ones.

There for the term 'language' is relatively 'unscientific'. Linguists usually refer to 'varieties of language'. There for Norwegian Swedish and Danish could be referred to as varieties of Scandinavian. "


I would have to disagree murphaph. Whilst clearly Scots is very close to English in alot of ways that say Irish and English are not. Geordie is a Northern Accent with perhaps a few hundred or so local words. Scots vocabulary unique to Scots are well over 5000 putting it in the realms of a language..perhaps not a distinct language but I think it takes it past the realm dialect.

"Is Scots a dialect or a language?

Product information taken from the packaging of a Philips energy saving lamp, in Danish, Norwegian, Czech and Slovak.

Kan ikke brukes i forbindelse med dimme utstyr eller elektronisk av og på mekanismer. Ikke egnet til bruk i helt lukkede armaturer.

Kan ikke bruges i forbindelse med lysdæmper og elektronisk tænd-sluk-ur. Ikke egnet til helt lukkede armaturer.

Nevhodné pre stmievanie, elektronické spínanie, pre fotobunky casové spínanie a senzory snímania intenzity svetla. Nevhodné prevádzkovat‘ v úplne uzavretých svietidlách.

Nevhodné pro stmívání, elektronické spínání, fotobunky. Casoá zarízeni a stmívací cidla. Nevhodné k použití do hermeticky uzavrených svítidel.

Which is the language, which the dialect? "

Kilsally

[QUOTE=murphaph
and I simply pointed out that you're more likely to hear one of the languages I mentioned than Gaelic being spoken in Scotland. You're spoiling for a fight here ADIG even though we actually agree in principle on this issue :eek:. Chill :cool:[/QUOTE]

unless you happen to watch early afternoon tv and live in or above the central belt where you are treated to the delights of kids tv in Gaelic with subtitles.