Anyone else notice this while tuning?

Karl Hungus

I've been trying more often to tune by ear, rather than relying on any tuner, lately, and it's helped having an eletronic tuning key (which rings out an A) on my Mircocube with which I tune from. Anyway, I've been trying to develop my ear a bit, and I've noticed something when tuning.

I hold my ear close to the neck and lets say for example, I hit the 5th fret on the A string, and the open D string. If it's out of tune, I can hear a kind of "Pulsating" which gets more frequent the more out of tune it is, but when it's in tune, I don't hear the pulse at all. So I've been tuning from the pulse as of late.

Anyone else notice this, or know what it is?

Parsley

Could be something to do with the way when they're in tune, only one frequency is being produced and that's all you hear, because the 2 strings are playing the exact same note. But if they're not in tune, you'll hear 2 different frequencies, very close together, maybe that's causing it? The ear is a weird thing.

I dunno how what you mean by "pulsating" really though.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Possibly something to do with the constructive and destructive interference of the waves. When you hit the two strings togetherand they are both in tune, the waves will both be in phase so that when the sound waves meet, one wave is prodced, with an amplitude equating to the sum of it's constituent waves.
When two different notes are played, the waves are out of phase, so some cancellation occurs and this could be causing the pulsating

More info here:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/interf.html

Raptor

Interference is right - in physics our teacher called it "beats". If they are close together the cancellation effects create repeating pattern that gets louder and softer at regular intervals. Slightly clearer when tuning using harmonics - 5th harmonic on one string and 7th on higher one

red_ice

Raptor wrote:

Interference is right - in physics our teacher called it "beats". If they are close together the cancellation effects create repeating pattern that gets louder and softer at regular intervals. Slightly clearer when tuning using harmonics - 5th harmonic on one string and 7th on higher one

Thats how i tune, its effortless. I find the best way to tune harmonics is with distortion (for some reason).

I was tone deaf with tuning with open strings and so on, when i use harmonics i can tune perfectly.

The scientific description is as follows

ding, ding wewowewewoweeeeeewoooooooooowoooooooooooooooo..ooooooooo

sounds somethin like that



I found that when i tried to tune a string by matching notes, it just went wrong.. Now i just sing a song thats in E, then hold the E note, tune my e string to my voice, then use harmonics for the rest. Hope that helps you!

If your listening out for the pulsating sound, your on the right track (in my tone deaf opinion)

John

red_ice wrote:

The scientific description is as follows

ding, ding wewowewewoweeeeeewoooooooooowoooooooooooooooo..ooooooooo

That's the best written description of tuning I've ever seen. Kudos good sir!

Quattroste

I tune with 5th and 7th harmonics too(except the B string obviously). Although I have found that there is a slight difference sometimes when I check with a tuner. Could this be the intonation?

Red_Ice. Perfect description.

Doctor J

There shouldn't be a discrepancy between a harmonic and an open note, other than the differing pitch. You may be experiiencing anomalies as a result of excessive magnetic pull from the pickups perhaps? A harmonic as you'd play on a guitar is just a division of the length of the string. For example, the twelfth fret is the halfway point, when you play a harmonic on the twelfth fret there is an equal amount of string vibrating either side of the finger you used over the fret.

X

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When you do it over the seventh fret the string vibrates in three points and is pretty still at four points (nodes) across the range of the string, the nut, the bridge and the 7th and 19th frets.

X

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x

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x

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X

A fifth fret harmonic is where it has five nodes and four anti-notes (vibrating areas)

X

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x

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x

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x

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X

The whole idea of intonation is to match up the harmonic nodes with the fret, because that's where the pitch is accurate, though setup, different string gauges and pickup closeness can mess with that.

Edit -> KH, the pulsing you hear is the two strings vibrating at slightly different frequencies, the further apart they are, the quicker the pulse, the closer they are to the same pitch, the longer the pulse.

Johnny Storm

FWIW the pulsing sound is usually called "beating".

magpie

I hit the 5th fret on the A string, and the open D string. If it's out of tune, I can hear a kind of "Pulsating" which gets more frequent the more out of tune it is, but when it's in tune, I don't hear the pulse at all. So I've been tuning from the pulse as of late.

Anyone else notice this, or know what it is?

I call this "how to tune a guitar". Its what musicians did in the olden daze before they became reliant on tuners and lost the art of hearing.

BossArky

Karl Hungus wrote:

I've been trying more often to tune by ear, rather than relying on any tuner, lately, ......

.... So I've been tuning from the pulse as of late.

Anyone else notice this, or know what it is?

The pulsating you refer to is called "beats". If you add two waves of the same wavelength or same frequency, and they are in unison or the same phase, the amplitudes will add. But it you add two waves of slightly different frequencies, the resulting amplitude will vary or oscillate at a rate that is the difference between the frequencies. That beat frequency will create a sine wave envelope around the original sine wave.

Check this link:

http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/soundbeat.htm

I am shocked that someone like yourself who seems to know his stuff cannot tune by ear. I usually tune to the reference notes in my head. Just think of any song that starts on a low E --> e.g. Nothing else matters, Lithium, etc.

magpie

Just think of any song that starts on a low E --> e.g. Nothing else matters, Lithium, etc.

Day Tripper is another useful one

red_ice

Thanks guys! Stay tuned for more great insight to how to know if your doin stuff right on the guitar!

Get it? See what i did there? I kill me! Honestly i do!


For the B string i hit the 7th on the E string!
And for the lower Thinner E string (eep!), i use the 7th on the A string. You can do 5/7 on the B string also, but the less work into moving my fingers the best even with tuning haha

Johnny Storm

Well, at least no one mentioned tempered tuning or we'd have been here all day.

sei046

Thats how i thought all my students to tune their guitars

WetDaddy

Yep, it is indeed called 'beating'.

I tune this way too. Strange, I just can't imagine not being able to tune by ear. Although, I have to have been awful at it at some stage... Perhaps back in the day when I found plucking harmonics difficult enough

But yeah, I just find it quicker and easier. Also, when the strings on my acoustic get old, sometimes the tone between them gets in my way of tune the standard way. God bless harmonics!

Oh, and if I ever pick up a guitar that's way way out of tune with no "starting" point of reference, I use my voice to get the F/F# on the low E-string. It's the lowest note I can sing comfortably, so it's usually close to right.

Johnny Storm

Proper" guitar tuning:
The following is a reprint of THE GUILD OF AMERICAN LUTHIERS data sheet #45.

Many guitarists are frustrated because of their attempts to tune the guitar to pure chords (free of beats). These particular players have very sensitive ears that prefer pure intervals and reject the mandatory equal temperament. They tune their guitar beautifully pure on one chord only to discover that the next chord form is unacceptable. In too many instances they assume that there must be a flaw in the workmanship on the fingerboard. Their problem is not in the construction of the guitar. It is one of pure tuning verses equal temperament.

You must accept this compromise because the guitar is an instrument of fixed pitch and the strings must be tuned to tempered intervals, not pure. Equal temperament is the name given to a system of dividing the chromatic scale into 12 equal half steps. Guitarists who have been trying to tune to one or another pure chord form must learn to understand and accept equal temperament. (They might be interested to know that to approximate pure chords on all forms would require about three dozen frets within the octave.) The system of equal temperament reduces the number to twelve, thereby making manageable all instruments of fixed pitch.

Here is what all of this means to the guitarist: You must not, at any time, use harmonic tones at the 7th fret as a point of reference (skilled piano tuners could use them because they know how many beats to introduce between 4th and 5th). Harmonic tones at the 7th fret are pure 5ths, while in equal temperament each 5th must be lowered slightly. To tune by harmonics at the 7th fret (as occasionally ill-advised) will make the guitar sound entirely unacceptable on some chord forms.

On the other hand, all harmonics at the 12th and 5th frets, being one and two octaves above the open strings, are immediately useful as explained below. All octaves and unisons are pure on all instruments of fixed pitch. Therefore, you may use harmonics at 12th and 5th as reference tones in the following tuning instructions.

Actually this discussion and the following suggestions are for those players who have been tuning to pure intervals. When the steps have been followed correctly the guitar will be as perfectly tuned as it could be in the hands of a professional. Nevertheless, when you have finished, your sensitive ear may notice that on each major chord form there is always one tone slightly high. If you start adjusting a particular string on a certain chord form, you only compound the problem because then the next chord form will be completely objectionable. Tune the guitar as instructed below and let it stand. How to help your ear accept equal temperament: It is easier to face a problem if we are prepared in advance and expect it. If you are one of those persons who is sensitive to pure intervals, here is what you are going to notice on an absolutely perfectly tuned guitar in equal temperament: Play an open E major chord. Listen to G# on the third string and you most likely will want to lower it very slightly. Don't do it. Ignore it. Enjoy the overall beauty and resonance of chord just as does the pianist.

That troublesome second string: Play an open position A major chord. Listen to the C# on the second string and you may want to lower it slightly. Play a first position C chord and listen to the E on the first string and fourth string at 2. These tones are slightly higher than your ear would like.

Now play an open position G chord. Listen to B on the second string. Yes, it would sound a little better if lowered ever so slightly. Why not try it? Slack off the second string a couple of vibrations and notice what beautiful G chord results. Now play the C chord and with that lowered second string, and you are going to dislike the rough C and E a lot more than before. Take the open B, second string back up to equal temperament so that it will be equally acceptable on all forms. Learn to expect and accept the slight sharpness of the major third in each chord (and oppositely, the flatness of the minor third in each minor chord). Train your ear to accept tempered intervals and you will be much happier with your guitar.

PROCEDURE:

Tuning the 1st and 6th strings: The E, open 1st string, must be in pure unison with the harmonic of the E, 6th string at the fifth fret. When these two strings have been properly tuned with each other, continue as follows. Tuning the 4th string: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 6th string at twelve, and as this harmonic sounds, adjust the 4th string until the tone E on the second fret is in pure unison. Now you have the E, open 1st string, 1st on the 4th string at two, and E, open 6th string tuned pure (permissible because they are octaves).

Tuning the 2nd string: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 4th string at twelve. As this sounds, adjust the 2nd string until D at the third fret is in pure unison. As you have used two fretted tones for references and as the frets are positioned for tempered intervals, you now have the open 1st, 2nd 4th and 6th strings in tempered tuning.

Tuning the 3rd string: As it is easier to adjust a string while listening to a continuous reference tone, you may first try the following: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 4th string at twelve and as this sounds, adjust the 3rd string until D at the 7th fret is in pure unison.

Double check: Now make this check to see if you have been accurate or if the instrument plays tune when fretted at seven. Play a harmonic on the (now tuned) G string at twelve, and as this tone sounds, play G on the 1st string at three. The two tones should be in pure unison. If they are not, either you are at fault or the instrument doesn't fret tune at seven. Go back to the beginning and carefully check each step up to this point. If the tones are still faulty, then readjust the 3rd string until the harmonic at twelve is in unison with the 1st at three. Do not tamper with the 1st and 4th strings because it is the 3rd string you are trying to bring in tune. When you have the 1st, 6th, 4th, 2nd and 3rd strings in tune, in that order, continue with the remaining 5th string.

Tuning the 5th string: Play the tone A on the (in tune) 3rd string, at the second fret. Listen to this pitch carefully and now adjust the 5th string until the harmonic at twelve is in pure unison. When the foregoing steps are followed correctly, the strings will be tuned perfectly to equal temperament. No further tuning adjustments are permissible.

WetDaddy

That seemed a daunting read at first, but I just got through it and it's actually really interesting. Will definitely try it, but my acoustic's in our trumpeter's house, so it'll have to wait til Monday :rolleyes:

moonboy

yeah this is interesting.now wheres me geetar...?
but also.lets see you do this on stage..

Voodu Child

Heres a few points continuing on with what Johhny said

1 - the first attempt to come up with a musical scale was probably the greeks. It uses a simple ratio system. Basically, you take your first note and multiply it by 9/18 to get your second, multiply that by 10/9 to get your third, etc.

Your last note turns out to be double the frequency of your first, and viola, you have whats now know as the major scale. If you tune by harmonics, this is pretty much what you are doing.

The problem is, this system of ratios gives you slightly different frequencies for each note in different keys, depending on what your starting note is (root note)

2 - So, we use whats called the equal tempered system. Instead of using different ratios for each note, you just multiply ever note by the 12th root of two. Do it twelve times, and viola, you end up at a frequency twice that of your first note, so again, you have a musical scale.

However, every note is just an approximation, so while it sounds ROUGHLY right in all keys, depending on how good your ears are, an awful lot of chords will sound 'wrong'.

This would be how to tune with an elctronic tuner.

3 - The inherent design of the guitar means you can intonate it at the bridge end, but not at the nut end. So again, youre throwing tuning problems into the bag, and may have to adjust your tuning slightly depending on where you spend most of your time on the neck. (This is what the Buzz Feitin tuning sytem tries to address)

4 - Concert pitch means different things to different instuments depending on their range. A violinist tunes to a slightly higher A than a tuba player in an orchestra for example. Also, a piano sounds more in tune if each note is SLIGHTLY more than twice that of the same note one octave lower.

So, basically, whatever you do will be a compromise, so dont worry too much about it and just go with whatever way sounds best to you...

Alternatively, just play so fast that nobody can hear whether youre in tune or not...thats what Yngwie does

mickymg2003

I think i know what you mean. When i have to Drop d tune i hold down the E string on the 12th Fret then pluck that and the open D together. I loosen the E the the pulses get further apart until theres none at all then i know i'm tuned to drop d.

hullaballoo

Does it make a difference what guage your strings are? All of the strings I have are a very light guage, I can't really remember why, but would that not mean that the frequency of an E string's vibrations would be less when the string is tuned to "E"? How do I account for this?

pbsuxok1znja4r

^Shouldn't make a difference - the frequency won't be different, wavelength and amplitude should be greater.

Yeah what KH noticed is "beats". Basically wave interference for frequencies/notes where wave crests and troughs no do not co-incide with eachother. Most noticable with natural harmonic notes, but still pretty noticable otherwise.

Hmm, that's interesting about tuning with 7th fret harmonics being flawed, I've always done it that way up 'till now. So just using 5th fret-12th fret works okay?

JMArr

Johnny Storm wrote:

Proper" guitar tuning:
The following is a reprint of THE GUILD OF AMERICAN LUTHIERS data sheet #45.

Nice one Johnny ..just followed those instructions tuning my Tele and it definitely sounds better than my usual method of tuning ..seriously is that the source - Guild of American Luthiers ? mad ..think I'll learn that off and use it in future when I dont have a electronic tuner...Wish I had that piece of instruction when I got my first squier tele years ago tho..I'm one of the folks cursed with very sensitive ears wrt tuning so nearly drove myself crazy in the early days trying to get the intonation 100% everywhere on the neck and get rid of the sharp notes on the G string (ouch !)between A,D and E chords:mad: ..I thought I was imagining things until I finally read somewhere about tempered tuning and realised I could never get it 100% spot on not matter how much I adjusted the saddles etc.. So I got used to it thank feck. I think its more noticeable on cheaper guitars as well..since I got a proper tele i dont notice it as much ..
Anyone heard of the Buzz Feiten Tuning System ? interesting if your having the same problems as I had...does eliminate the sharpness i'd recommend it.Washburn do it on some but guitars like the Idol series. :cool:

legologic

Great method for tuining. Probably (without strobe tuners and the like) as close as a guitar ever gets to being "in tune". I also always carry a good quality A440 or E329.6 tuining fork. One tap... touch the tip of the handle off the body (close to the bridge). You'll know when the (with an E329.6)1st and sixth are in tune because they'll resonate with the fork and body. You can feel the resonance fairly accurately if you let your fingers hover over the strings lightly.

Also a good tip for relative tuining in noisy environments is when plucking the string towards the back of the soundhole/ between the pickups towards the bridge pickup, you can hear the string clearer at about the third fret (you'll notice the difference up close), because there's an anti-node there.

ogy

just wanted to say that piece about equal tempered scales is brilliant, im constently fixing tuning between songs (especially when playing acoustic) because of the G#in the E chord and the C# in the A chord, then you go to play a D and it sounds awful, fair play for enlightening me