Dole Waster

BuffyBot

Round my way its common enough to see guys queuing for the post office at 9.00 then going stright into the early house, so presumably there's a few quid left over after buying gruel.

Well then, it must be representative of the masses...

TerrorFirmer

It's actually more then 134. It's 148.10 or something very similar, dependant of your situation and family obviously though. the OPFP is a bit higher, 168 or so, again dependant on your family make up.

And for those that say its crap, its alot for doing nothing. IMO it should be way lower - just barely enough to pay rent and buy basic foodstuff. As it is, it's generous for what it is - doing nothing. It's considerably lower in the UK.

Although in fairness I definately don't think anyone on the dole is out drinking every night and if they are, it certainly isn't dole money they use

gurramok

Maybe it's not relevant but i do know of one man who was one of about 400 odd who after working 25 yrs in a factory job was let go when the factory shut its gates and is now on the dole.
He and at least 50% of his former colleagues are all over the 50yr age bracket, most still on the dole for about 4 yrs now.

What has happened is that many drifted into alcohol, gambling, whatever as they got depressed at losing a job after such a length of time, opportunties for retraining were not offered from FAS/etc due to their age profile plus many employers would not touch them due to their perceived old age and lack of experience as their old occupation was made redundant.

It doesnt help that most of these guys couldn't avail of basic qualifications such as leaving cert before it was made complusory back in the 60s, they joined the local factory once they turned at working age!
Just an example of many a case where the once 'employable' were turned into 'unemployable' by neglect, rather sad really.

Zombrex

MobileInfantry wrote:

And for those that say its crap, its alot for doing nothing.

Coming from a family that at the start was a single parent family, I had a big long rant about the OPFP and your term "doing nothing", After I calmed down a bit I decided I should give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were not talking about single parents who claim OPFP....

Anyway...

MobileInfantry wrote:

IMO it should be way lower - just barely enough to pay rent and buy basic foodstuff.

In my opinion it is, though with out knowing you personal circumstances I don't know what your cost of living is like. I know I certainly spend a lot more than €7000 a year on food and clothes (and I shop in Penny's ffs)

MobileInfantry wrote:

Although in fairness I definately don't think anyone on the dole is out drinking every night and if they are, it certainly isn't dole money they use

I think everyone can agree on that.

magpie

In my opinion it is, though with out knowing you personal circumstances I don't know what your cost of living is like.

20 fags a day = €30
Case of 20 bottles of beer for consumption while watching Richard & Judy = €20
Pot Noodle, White Bread, Beans, Sausages and Milk to last a week = €40

This leaves you €44, or 11 pints, to be consumed over the course of the week.

Anyone who's on the dole in 2006 is probably not that concerned about clothes shopping, be it Penney's or elsewhere.

Zombrex

magpie wrote:

20 fags a day = €30
Case of 20 bottles of beer for consumption while watching Richard & Judy = €20
Pot Noodle, White Bread, Beans, Sausages and Milk to last a week = €40

This leaves you €44, or 11 pints, to be consumed over the course of the week.

Anyone who's on the dole in 2006 is probably not that concerned about clothes shopping, be it Penney's or elsewhere.

There must be a lot of clothesless, scurvy suffering, jaundice unemployed people around your parts.

Freelancer

Wicknight wrote:

There must be a lot of clothesless, scurvy suffering, jaundice unemployed people around your parts.

Not to mention cold, and how can they watch richard and judy without electricity?

magpie

There must be a lot of clothesless, scurvy suffering, jaundice unemployed people around your parts.

Not to mention cold, and how can they watch richard and judy without electricity?

Whereas in your world the unemployed are all noble Alan Bleasdale types battling the tide of progress with their pride and belief in the Trade Union system that will inevitably let them down yada yada yada. People on the Dole don't tend to be too concerned about their 5 portions of fruit and veg per day. Its more a chips and cereal kind of diet.

As I said in my first post (if you bothered to read it) YES there are some people who require the assistance of the state. There are also people who choose to be on the dole who have quite a comfortable existence living at home with their parents in a Council House - presumably their parents pay the 'leccie - and who have €134 a week to spend on booze/fags or whatever they want.

As for clothing, tracksuits are pretty cheap AFAIK and if you don't have to dress for work what more do you need?

I'm kind of losing track of this argument, as on the one hand the OP was a rabid "shoot all doleys" type and on the other hand you have the forces of righteous indignation led by Wolfie Smith... I mean Wicknight.

I tried to steer a sensible middle ground in my first post (again, try reading it) but this was interpreted by the Binary-Minded PC brigade as "If you're not 100% with us you're 100% against us", and there's no arguing with that logic, is there?

Hobbes

magpie wrote:

20 fags a day = €30
Case of 20 bottles of beer for consumption while watching Richard & Judy = €20
Pot Noodle, White Bread, Beans, Sausages and Milk to last a week = €40

This leaves you €44, or 11 pints, to be consumed over the course of the week.

Anyone who's on the dole in 2006 is probably not that concerned about clothes shopping, be it Penney's or elsewhere.

Oh ok, and that is comfy how exactly? Maybe we have different expectations of what comfy is.

Freelancer

magpie wrote:

Whereas in your world the unemployed are all noble Alan Bleasdale types battling the tide of progress with their pride and belief in the Trade Union system that will inevitably let them down yada yada yada. People on the Dole don't tend to be too concerned about their 5 portions of fruit and veg per day. Its more a chips and cereal kind of diet.

As I said in my first post (if you bothered to read it) YES there are some people who require the assistance of the state. There are also people who choose to be on the dole who have quite a comfortable existence living at home with their parents in a Council House - presumably their parents pay the 'leccie - and who have €134 a week to spend on booze/fags or whatever they want.

As for clothing, tracksuits are pretty cheap AFAIK and if you don't have to dress for work what more do you need?

I'm kind of losing track of this argument, as on the one hand the OP was a rabid "shoot all doleys" type and on the other hand you have the forces of righteous indignation led by Wolfie Smith... I mean Wicknight.

I tried to steer a sensible middle ground in my first post (again, try reading it) but this was interpreted by the Binary-Minded PC brigade as "If you're not 100% with us you're 100% against us", and there's no arguing with that logic, is there?

Horsemanure. You've come here and said "its actually pretty easy to be on the dole and be happy as a pig in sh*t", presented maths to back this up, that took two seconds to destroy, and are now whinging that "I'm the voice of reason"

magpie

Oh ok, and that is comfy how exactly? Maybe we have different expectations of what comfy is.

My mistake, I didn't realise the dole was supposed to provide a comfy existence. I thought it was supposed to stop you dying of starvation if you were unable, though no fault of your own, to find work.

magpie

that took two seconds to destroy,

I must have missed that bit? Was that where Wicknight was suggesting that people on the dole would suffer jaundice if they didn't get the 5 portions of fruit and veg, wheatgrass juice shakes and 25 minutes down the gymn every day?

Have any of you people been on the dole? Have you ever met anyone on the dole?

Frankly your moral highground is teetering on the verge of being patronising to the very people you claim to be defending.

People who choose to be on the dole in 2006, which is any able bodied person without mental infirmity who is capable of any sort of work, choose to hang around the pub and the bookies.

Zombrex

magpie wrote:

I tried to steer a sensible middle ground in my first post (again, try reading it) but this was interpreted by the Binary-Minded PC brigade as "If you're not 100% with us you're 100% against us", and there's no arguing with that logic, is there?

Saying unemployed people only eat chips and ceral, wear tracksuits, and are quite happy and comfortable to live day to day like that with no long term plans for the future is taking the "middle ground" .... ok then ... :rolleyes:

magpie wrote:

My mistake, I didn't realise the dole was supposed to provide a comfy existence.

Its not, so why are you obsessed with saying it does?

magpie wrote:

Frankly your moral highground is teetering on the verge of being patronising to the very people you claim to be defending.

Thats a joke right ...


"People on the Dole don't tend to be too concerned about their 5 portions of fruit and veg per day. Its more a chips and cereal kind of diet."

"tracksuits are pretty cheap AFAIK"

Yes, we are being patronising ...

Freelancer

magpie wrote:

I must have missed that bit? Was that where Wicknight was suggesting that people on the dole would suffer jaundice if they didn't get the 5 portions of fruit and veg, wheatgrass juice shakes and 25 minutes down the gymn every day?

Well on your suggested diet where they don't get any, yes actually they will. And with all those carbs and no protein, malinutrion cold easily set in. Seeing as they haven't been any scurvy outbreaks reported at St James, I'll have to take a punt and suggest they aren't following the Magpie dole diet.

Not to mention your abject failure to account for utilities, or clothes. Pennys and Moore st may be cheap, but in order to not be naked they'll have to spend some money on clothes.

Have any of you people been on the dole? Have you ever met anyone one the dole?

Oh FFS, you're wandering into that Frost report, "I'm middle class and I look down on him", "I know my place". Yes I have been on the dole, I've been made redundant and spent six months off work. Because I was living with my partner I couldn't even claim full benefits. It was pretty grim, and plenty of friends have spent years on the dole.

Frankly your moral highground is teetering on the verge of being patronising to the very people you claim to be defending.

Did I claim the moral highground? I'm just pointing out the rampant absurdity of many of the claims here.

People who choose to be on the dole in 2006, which is any able bodied person without mental infirmity who is capable of any sort of work, choose to hang around the pub and the bookies.

Again a wide sweeping generalisation, without substance or anything to support it. First hand personnally the person I know who is long term unemployed is a teetotalling crusty, unlikely to go to the bookies

TerrorFirmer

Hobbes wrote:

Oh ok, and that is comfy how exactly? Maybe we have different expectations of what comfy is.

It's not comfy as such but it gives you an existance that meets and exceeds your basic needs - which it really shouldn't. It should meet your needs and end there.

The defination of comfortable varies from person to person but money for all your basic needs with a bit left over for whatever you will is what I would call comfortable money for doing nothing to earn what you are receiving.

Of course though as mentioned there are people who through bad luck end up on the Dole and have no wish to remain on it indefinately.....but there are also those that choose to live on the Dole and are happily to remain on it for the forseeable future, and they have that choice because the Dole in Ireland is very generour compared to other states.

And it's alot of these sort of people that wear the tracksuits and eat crappy food. People who end up unemployed through unfortunate circumstances are used to a high living and as such won't fnd it easy to live on the dole.

The people who choose to live on the dole, and are happy with it, do indeed in alot of cases buy cheap food, poor food at that, and wear cheap clothes.

Magpie has some valid points. It's different being someone who was on the dole short term through lack of employment and being someone who chooses to live on the dole.

I know plenty of people on the dole simply because its free money and they arent bothered working. Nice people as they are, their diets are terrible, and their clothes are cheap.

I can't speak for every single person on the dole in Ireland and I know that, I'm just saying nobody here is making 100% correct facts, it all depends on circumstance.

magpie

Its not, so why are you obsessed with saying it does?

Your friend Hobbes said that €134 "hardly provided a comfy existence", I responded by saying "I didn't realise it was supposed to". Once again, try reading all the posts - it might make it easier for you to follow what's going on.

I've been made redundant and spent six months off work. Because I was living with my partner I couldn't even claim full benefits

Well then through no fault of your own were forced to rely on Unemployment Benefit, whereas the people we are discussing here are on Unemployment Assistance, which is a different kettle of fish.

Yes, we are being patronising

You don't seem to have reached the understanding that in the current economic environment of almost 100% employment anyone who has any aspirations to make something of themselves is already in the process of doing so.

Anyone left on the dole is either mentally or physically infirm, in which case they require the state's support, or has made a conscious decision to drop out and lead a life consisting of cans of Dutch Gold, the odd Rasher Sandwich a few rolies adn going to the pub Friday and Saturday nights.

I'll repeat my previous question Wicknight - have you ever been on the dole, or met anyone who was long term unemployed?

I have both been on the dole and led a FÁS Community Employment scheme - all the members of which were quite content to come in to work at 9.30, clock off at 12.00, have a couple of pints on the way home and not have any stress or strain in their life.

Saying unemployed people only eat chips and ceral, wear tracksuits, and are quite happy and comfortable to live day to day like that with no long term plans for the future

You left out the key bit of information which is "people who choose to be unemployed". As a matter of interest what do you think the proifle of the average unemployed person is?

Zombrex

magpie wrote:

Your friend Hobbes said that €134 "hardly provided a comfy existence", I responded by saying "I didn't realise it was supposed to". Once again, try reading all the posts - it might make it easier for you to follow what's going on.

My "friend" Hobbes was responding to this -

magpie wrote:

The dole is about €134 a week for a single male? No offence, but you can live quite comfortably on that
...
€134 is quite a lot of money if you don't have to pay rent
...
so presumably there's a few quid left over after buying gruel.

What was that about reading all the posts .. :rolleyes:

The dole isn't supposed to provide a wonderfully comfortable quality of life and guess what it doesn't.

magpie

What was that about reading all the posts ..

Touché

Once again (I'm starting to feel like Jeremy Paxman here) I'll repeat my previous question Wicknight - have you ever been on the dole, or met anyone who was long term unemployed?

pete

magpie wrote:

Well then through no fault of your own were forced to rely on Unemployment Benefit, whereas the people we are discussing here are on Unemployment Assistance, which is a different kettle of fish.

Yeah it's different kettle alright - UB isn't means tested, UA is.

Anyone left on the dole is either mentally or physically infirm,

Wrong.

Unfit / unable for work = instant disallowance from scratcher. (Three qualifying conditions = available for, fit for & genuinely seeking work)

Unless you're considering people on UA / UB / DB / InvP as being one and the same and all "on the dole", which really isn't very helpful at all.

Zombrex

magpie wrote:

Touché

Once again (I'm starting to feel like Jeremy Paxman here) I'll repeat my previous question Wicknight - have you ever been on the dole, or met anyone who was long term unemployed?

I have never been on the dole (touch wood), and I have known 2 people who were long term unemployed.

Is there a point?

BuffyBot

I tried to steer a sensible middle ground in my first post

I'd hate to see whats on your right, then.

magpie

Is there a point?

Your view of those on the dole seemed to be a little unrealistically noble, that's all.

Unfit / unable for work = instant disallowance from scratcher. (Three qualifying conditions = available for, fit for & genuinely seeking work)

You're quite correct. In which case we must ask the question why is there anyone left on the dole given the free availability of work? I would have to assume they're quite happy on the dole and not making any real effort to find a job, which would again suggest that they find being on the dole a relatively easy existence.

Unless you're considering people on UA / UB / DB / InvP as being one and the same and all "on the dole", which really isn't very helpful at all.

No, I'm trying to avoid that global view - so sorry for any misunderstanding. When I say "dole" I am referring to "UA" - and I assume everyone else here is talking about the same thing.

I'd hate to see whats on your right, then.

I did one of those "test your political stance" things and I came out as being closest to Charles Kennedy, if that's any help to you.

Freelancer

magpie wrote:

Well then through no fault of your own were forced to rely on Unemployment Benefit, whereas the people we are discussing here are on Unemployment Assistance, which is a different kettle of fish.

Pedantry. And you conviently ignore the fact that your "I'm more working class, and know more about this than yis" point is deflated.

You don't seem to have reached the understanding that in the current economic environment of almost 100% employment anyone who has any aspirations to make something of themselves is already in the process of doing so.

Irrelevant, we were talking about quality of life on the dole, and you've come out with some inane maths that proves that they're happy as a pig in sh*t.

Anyone left on the dole is either mentally or physically infirm, in which case they require the state's support, or has made a conscious decision to drop out and lead a life consisting of cans of Dutch Gold, the odd Rasher Sandwich a few rolies adn going to the pub Friday and Saturday nights.

Any chance you're going to introduce such a whimiscal thing as a fact to support this?

I'll repeat my previous question Wicknight - have you ever been on the dole, or met anyone who was long term unemployed?

You make think you sound like paxman, but you sound like a whinger desperately clinging on to his last point. Whether Wicknight has or hasn't been on the dole, and frankly growing up in the 80s I'd be surprised to meet anyone in Ireland who didn't know someone long term unemployed.

You left out the key bit of information which is "people who choose to be unemployed". As a matter of interest what do you think the proifle of the average unemployed person is?

I don't know, would you care to actually come up with a statistic, such as how much dutch gold they drink?

Zombrex

magpie wrote:

Your view of those on the dole seemed to be a little unrealistically noble, that's all.

Not accepting your word that most of the people on the dole are wasters who are happy to trundle down to their local Spar at 11am, stock up on Dutch Gold and Pot Noodle and trundle back to their council flat to happily spend the rest of the day watching Trisha on the couch content and comfortable as pigs in sh*t like a bad episode of Harry Enfields sketch "The Slobs" is noble

Ok, I'm "noble" then.

magpie

Pedantry

If you think the distinction between Unemployment Benefit and Unemployment Assistance is pedantry then you're unqualified to make any observations on this debate.

Receipt of Unemployment Benefit is contingent on having had and lost a job - therefore people on UB have shown willingness to work at some point, Unemployment Assistance is a means tested allowance for persons who apparently cannot or do not wish to get a job.

quality of life on the dole

I'm going to summarise my key points here again, since we seem to have lost track of them

• I am not talking about people on Unemployment Benefit, DB or INVP
• Unemployment Assistance is payable to those fit for work, actively seeking work.
• We have 100% employment, so there is no trouble finding work in 2006
• If there is no trouble finding work, and people still choose to remain on UA, does this not lead you to suspect that it is in fact a relatively easy existence?
• If it is not an easy existence why don't the people on UA get one of the 1000s of jobs avaialable at present, earn more money and improve their quality of life?

Not accepting your word that most of the people on the dole are wasters

If by "the dole" you mean UA, then see the list above. If by the dole you mean people on UB, DB or INVB then I have never suggested that.

Freelancer

magpie wrote:

If you think the distinction between Unemployment Benefit and Unemployment Assistance is pedantry then you're unqualified to make any observations on this debate.

Receipt of Unemployment Benefit is contingent on having had and lost a job - therefore people on UB have shown willingness to work at some point, Unemployment Assistance is a means tested allowance for persons who apparently cannot or do not wish to get a job.

Again pedantry, if I was long term unemployed I'd switch to Unemployment Benefit, I automatically qualified for unemployment assistant because of my PRSI contributions.

Lets be clear your question was

Magpie wrote:

have you ever been on the dole, or met anyone who was long term unemployed?

Now when both Wicknight and I clarify that we can answer yes to both questions, you shift the goalposts.

[*]We have 100% employment, so there is no trouble finding work in 2006
[*]If there is no trouble finding work, and people still choose to remain on UA, does this not lead you to suspect that it is in fact a relatively easy existence?

Thats a leap, and the leap after that is that therefore according to you everyone who is long term unemployed sits in the pub, or the bookies, living the live of Reilly, swigging Dutch Gold, smoking fags, stuffing themselves on bacon sarnies.

[*]If it is not an easy existence why don't the people on UA get one of the 1000s of jobs avaialable at present, earn more money and improve their quality of life?
[/LIST]

As several other posters pointed out there could be several reasons, men in their fifties, made redundant too "old" to retrain, people suffering from depression, and while I don't doubt there are some who fit your worldview, its your sweeping generalisation that I find odious.

If by "the dole" you mean UA, then see the list above. If by the dole you mean people on UB, DB or INVB then I have never suggested that.

It's interesting to note that you're not trying to define the dole, before we got into it, you were happy to sweepingly call anyone on the dole long term the above, you're now clarifying who you mean.

Of course you've not yet provided a shred of evidence, again.

magpie

Again pedantry, if I was long term unemployed I'd switch to Unemployment Benefit, I automatically qualified for unemployment assistant because of my PRSI contributions.

You've got it the wrong way around - but you probably think I'm being pedantic again.

the leap after that is that therefore according to you everyone who is long term unemployed sits in the pub, or the bookies, living the live of Reilly, swigging Dutch Gold, smoking fags, stuffing themselves on bacon sarnies.

I can name you 3 pubs within 5 minutes of where I'm sitting that I can guarantee will have at least 10 persons each on UA sitting in them drinking. You want me to name them? Perhaps take some photos?

several other posters pointed out there could be several reasons, men in their fifties, made redundant too "old" to retrain, people suffering from depression, and while I don't doubt there are some who fit your worldview, its your sweeping generalisation that I find odious.

People suffering from depression would be on Invalidity Allowance, and you'll note I've specifically excluded them.

How much retraining does it take to get a job in a Supermarket or similar? They're always looking for staff and specifically encourage older people "back to work". Or are those jobs not good enough?

a shred of evidence

What evidence are you looking for? Can you give me a shred of evidene to suggest that everyone on UA is not a drunken layabout? No, because there are no statistics and its based on observation and anecdotal evidence.

Freelancer

magpie wrote:

You've got it the wrong way around - but you probably think I'm being pedantic again.

If I got it wrong it's because they're the same thing, with different names depending on how long term unemployed you've been, trying to dismiss my "dole" experience (which you demanded) as not the same thing is the pedantry part.

I can name you 3 pubs within 5 minutes of where I'm sitting that I can guarantee will have at least 10 persons each on UA sitting in them drinking. You want me to name them? Perhaps take some photos?

Ah so ancedotal evidence. Whats that simpsons quote

Lionel Hutz wrote:

I've got speculation and conjecture, those are kinda proof

I find it funny that invariable on these anti dole scrouger/anti traveller/anti immirgrant threads, the anti side is invariably reduced to assuring us that my cousin saw the social welfare office hand out cavier and champange to all those getting benefits/this bloke down the pub reckons travellers stole De Valera's corpse and dress him up like a bird/my friends best mate's half cousin, who's drunken midget dwarf, owns a used car business and he sells 14 merc an hour to Romanians, and the department pays for 'em.

When these remarks are scoffed at, the stranger at the other end of the conversation, goes "What who you going to believe, some random anonymous punter off the internet, or some dirty facts".

People suffering from depression would be on Invalidity Allowance, and you'll note I've specifically excluded them.

No, again not neasuraly, depression can be easily overlooked, and misdisagnosised, or not believed, forcing someone onto the dole.

How much retraining does it take to get a job in a Supermarket or similar? They're always looking for staff and specifically encourage older people "back to work". Or are those jobs not good enough?

You're a fifty year old, say for example, print worker, you were earning €40,000 a year until your plant shifted to new buildings and equipment. Now I'm a young man, and I found losing my job psychologically and emotionally difficult. It was hard it was embarssing, though no fault of my own. It's harder for someone who's been in the one job for life, you really expect them to go stack shelves, with Anto, and Tracy, for a pittance more than the dole?

What evidence are you looking for? Can you give me a shred of evidene to suggest that everyone on UA is not a drunken layabout? No, because there are no statistics and its based on observation and anecdotal evidence.

Yeah but I'm not making a claim the onus is on you to support it, you've made a sweeping allegation, are utterly incapable of supporting it, and now demanding that I go and disprove it. That is generally the last act of an argument that's had the legs cut off from under it.

magpie

you've made a sweeping allegation

Remind me what that was again?

go stack shelves, with Anto, and Tracy

Nice. So you are saying that certain jobs aren't good enough.

Freelancer

Remind me what that was again?

Are you serious?

Lets do em in cronological order;

Anyone who's on the dole in 2006 is probably not that concerned about clothes shopping

People on the Dole don't tend to be too concerned about their 5 portions of fruit and veg per day. Its more a chips and cereal kind of diet.

People who choose to be on the dole in 2006, which is any able bodied person without mental infirmity who is capable of any sort of work, choose to hang around the pub and the bookies.

Anyone left on the dole is either mentally or physically infirm, in which case they require the state's support, or has made a conscious decision to drop out and lead a life consisting of cans of Dutch Gold, the odd Rasher Sandwich a few rolies adn going to the pub Friday and Saturday nights.

Those are all sweeping allegations about people on the dole, their lifestyle and attitude.

Nice. So you are saying that certain jobs aren't good enough.

No I'm saying you cannot expect a trained professional to gleefully run into a job stacking shelves. Or that they'd be wanted, look at the Irish Examiner printers, do you think any supermarket manager is going to want a 50 year man, from a union background, when he can hire a bunch of poles, who even if they complain, he doesn't understand them?