Which party do you support / will vote for?

constitutionus

The Corinthian wrote:

Why don't you actually back that up with some facts?

No we didn't - Russia did, followed by Germany, and apparantly ours was lower than most European nations:

http://www.neonatology.org/classics/graham.html

i ment DUBLIN , sure no one outside there matters:D

The Corinthian

constitutionus wrote:

i ment DUBLIN

Source?

This is ultimately my point; Britain did a lot of harm here, but by no means is she the root of all our country’s evil - past, present and future. It’s almost as if we need the Anglophone whipping boy so as to explain our own inadequacies and incompetence’s - it was not unusual, after all, to hear the argument up to the 1970’s and 80’s that “800 years of English oppression” was the reason our economy was a joke.

And such is the idiocy that is Irish politics that we have (yet again) managed to return to a mythologized history of a century ago when discussing a thread on current affairs.

"Other people have a nationality. The Irish and the Jews have a psychosis." - Brendan Behan

Cork

constitutionus wrote:

as stated MY reason for voting SF is because i want to improve the QUALITY of debate in the dail,which we dont get. ..........

micheal martin and mary harney,BOTH colluded in stealing money from pensioner up to LAST YEAR. thats not antiquity , thats BOTH incarnations of the PRESENT government (and im not to happy about the feckers in FG and LABOUR that were at it in their day)

Will I even mention SF and their illegal army?

FF, PD , Labour and FG have long traditions of being democrats.

constitutionus

Cork wrote:

Will I even mention SF and their illegal army?

FF, PD , Labour and FG have long traditions of being democrats.

need i mention both FF and FG walked into the first dail with guns in their belts and the current leader of labour came from the democratic left who used to be sinn fein the workers party, and NOBODY got their guns :rolleyes:

theres blood on the hands of MOST of the parties in the dail, just depends HOW far back you want to go:D

Cork

theres blood on the hands of MOST of the parties in the dail,

What about laundered fuel?

constitutionus

Cork wrote:

What about laundered fuel?

you'd have to as FIANNA GAEL about that:D

ghostdancer

Sinn Féin/Fianna Fail


hopefully the PD's will be left out in the cold.

The_Minister

constitutionus wrote:

now im playing devils advocate here but what exactly seperates em from the mainstream political parties? the IRA have disarmed and are about as relevant as an american war appreciation society now. at least thats what BERTIE tells us, even if you bought into the whole IRA/SINN FEIN nonsense. is there a connection? sure. but no more than finna gael / IFA or PDs / IBEC.
ALL our politicians are compromised by vested interests, think im wrong then look at the most protected industries/services and look at the DAY jobs of politicians. we should have got those cafe bars but didnt because most politicians are either in the pocket of publicans or ARE them.
ever wonder why we have such a shortage of consultants when after the soviet union collapsed ALL their specialists we're on the dole, who'd KILL to do the job for the average industrial wage, never mind 100k plus a year?
BECAUSE THE DOCTORS HAVE SIGNED AN AGREEMENT THAT THEY WONT "POACH" DOCTORS FROM IMPOVERISHED NATIONS , what a crock of ****.they give us some crap about not wanting to facilitate a brain drain but its THEIR wages and conditions they want to assure.
i will concede the IRA did kill people,but the politicians you laud facilitated the experimentation on CHILDREN by american multinational drugs companies, STOLE money consistantly from pensioners in nursing homes, forcing em in cases to sell their homes FOR THIRTY YEARS. ENGAGED IN STATE SANCTIONED ORGAN LEGGING of peoples/BABIES body parts if they were unfortunate to die in hospitals. SOLD irish citizenship to arabs to feather their nests. did sweetheart deals with institutions that RAPED CHILDREN and HID the criminals involved so they'd be indemnefied againts claims resulting in YOUR tax money is paid instead , and let me reemphasise that, THE BIGGEST LAND OWNER IN THE STATE only has to pay 10% of the bill, YOU pay the rest. no wonder the pope gave bertie a medal:rolleyes:
they held NOONE accountable in the banks involved in the biggest tax evasion (sorry AVOIDANCE:rolleyes: ) scam in the history of the state, even when a TD seemed to be apart of it. turned a blind i to a PRIVATE bank run by CRH (which incidently was SO grateful they offerd CJ a seat on the board)
POISONED its citizens with infected blood products and then FORCED THEM ON THE EDGE OF DEATH TO THE COURTS simply to get the justice they deserved:mad:
and how do our esteemed politicians deal with these people, when they cant hush it up. the HEINOUS penality of early retirement. oh how those gardai who forged confessions, planted explosives, BEAT people to death in custody must be suffering. oh how those doctors who BUTCHERED IRISH WOMEN BY RIPPING THEIR WOMBS OUT must lay in anguish enduring the horror of being struck off while they live on a pension WELL in excess of the average industrial wage,

at least when the IRA did what they did they KNEW it was against the law, OUR POLITICIANS WATCHED OVER ALL THE THINGS I MENTIONED AND EITHER COVERED IT UP BY DISAPPEARING FILES OR MADE THE BLOODY THINGS "LEAGAL":mad: :mad:

This will take quite a reply:
1. It is worse to be connected to the IRA than IBEC.
2.A brain drain is one of the most destructive things to happen to third world countries. People may actually not want to retard a poor countries growth (see make poverty history)
3."Stealing" money from pensioners. That money is ment to pay for food, toiletries etc. They recieve this while in nursing homes. Therefore it is not stealing merely preventing them being double-payed.
4."Organ Legging" This was organised by doctors not the government. Those organs went on to save many lives worldwide. Don't judge yesterday by today's standards.
5.Deal was made with the church because there was so little evidence left that most claims would have been rejected. Thus the victims would get no justice. The church does not pay because only about one in ten cases would have been won otherwise. They did it to protect the "raped children"
6. The criminals were indemnified because - due to the very low evidence required-their names would be tarnished on an unacceptably lowlevel of evidence.
7.Tax avoidance is legal. Single-mothers do it when they claim concessions. This situation could not be blamed on any party but on a few smart-alleced accountants who figured out the most profitable ways to twist the system. These ways are being dismantled.
8.Again the hepetitus scandal was not the fault of any minister but of the doctors. They did not all have to go to court-only those who wanted more than the rest.
9.The IRA did not know it was against the law, because they did not recogise the law.

The_Minister

Earthman wrote:

Netwhizzkid Quit the trolling or you will be banned from here.

Thats your final warning

As for the rest of ye,I'm having to wade through a lot of shoite here to read a few decent posts so whatever about the Good Friday Agreement would your Re acquaint yourselves with the Good Poster Agreement located here

Please take that on board now - Thank you

Whats trolling?

Cork

constitutionus wrote:

(and im not to happy about the feckers in FG and LABOUR that were at it in their day)

What would you call the killers of Robert McCartney, Jean McConville or those who planted the bomb at Warrington?

Let us hope that the IMC are happy with SF/IRA.

One thing is for certain that FF will not be bothered with SF/IRA afer the next election.

With pretty good reason.

This thread is about Which party do you support / will vote for?

It is not about calling democrats

feckers

Labour, FF, FG and PDs stood for democratic politics when the IRA were robbing post offices in Adare.

The_Minister

shroomfox wrote:

Ireland is one of the most hardline capitalist countries in the world, with all the problems that come with it, including the second worst rich-poor divide in the world and some of the worst cases of poverty in Europe. .

Interestinly enough we are still abou 30% public 70%private. That is still alot of public

Cronus333

constitutionus wrote:

agreed WHEN DID I SAY WE SHOULD LEAVE EUROPE , im sick to the back teeth of people jumping from one extreme to the other on this issue, denmark ISNT in the euro, but thery're STILL in the union. WE joined the EEC and it helped us IMMEASURABLY,and ive no problem with us trading goods with a common currency and having a free movement of labour. i DO have a problem with a EU CONSTITUTION that supercecede OUR OWN:mad: . im the FIRST generation of my family who can call himself an irish citizen and im SICKENED how quickly people seem to want to give away the sovereingty that people DIED for and members of my own family fought for, for a BIG bucket of cash. self determinaton is our RIGHT. and i'd rather be a piss poor country with FREEDOM than a rich one with all the power of rhode island in the USA.
and to be brutally honest can ANYONE actually tell me WHAT the EU is all about? we're expanding ALL the time and noone seems to know where the limit is. turkey? RUSSIA, will it absorb CHINA IN THE END no one knows because they havent a bloody clue . and remember the MORE members that join the LESS influence we have. the new accession countries for instance DONT have equal status to us, they have no veto (the MAIN reason i voted against the NICE treaty, i DONT believe in a yellow pack EU membership:mad: ) and if memory serves ratification of the EU constitution would have REMOVED ours. think LONG and hard on this because the ONLY guarenttee we currently have of the EU services directorate not being enacted is , you guessed it, the use of our veto.

The EU is our only hope, and the more it integrates the better. How can a small island country of 4 million hope to compete with India, China or even countries like Turkmenistan when they get their act together. Our only advantage is low taxes, and any country on the planet can have that advantage at any time. With a united European state Europe can compete with the rest of the world. Wouldn't it be nice to be part of a state that has actual power in the world? Think about it.

constitutionus

Cronus333 wrote:

The EU is our only hope, and the more it integrates the better. How can a small island country of 4 million hope to compete with India, China or even countries like Turkmenistan when they get their act together. Our only advantage is low taxes, and any country on the planet can have that advantage at any time. With a united European state Europe can compete with the rest of the world. Wouldn't it be nice to be part of a state that has actual power in the world? Think about it.

so your telling me power and infulence are better than freedom nice to know where you stand, I treasure the democracy we have here and am not in favor of a rotating council in europe in which at certain points we dont have representation on. like i said we DONT have to go along with everything the EU wants to be good europeans, NOT joining the euro hasnt stoped the danes being as good citizens as the rest of us or taking active part in debates and discussions. if others want to turn into the UNITED STATES OF EUROPE thats fine. i personally think intergration has gone far enough, we have the tools to compete and to be honest i dont like how the new countries have been treated like secound class citizen and dont think that bodes well for the next round of countries
but i DO agree with your statements about china et al, and have to ask no matter who we hook up with HOW are we gonna compete with north korea doing hi tech IT jobs for a dollar a day?

constitutionus

Cork wrote:

What would you call the killers of Robert McCartney, Jean McConville or those who planted the bomb at Warrington?

Let us hope that the IMC are happy with SF/IRA.

MURDERERS, what would you call doctors who cut up dead babies brains and send em to their mates in foreign multinationals who make MILLIONS out of the drugs they glean from em,

or engage in their favorite passtime of butchering womens wombs, steal the files when the patients find out and end up not in jail but on a cushy pension?

if those killers were caught they'd be jailed, NONE of the doctors involved were EVER charged with organ legging or GBH

cork wrote:

One thing is for certain that FF will not be bothered with SF/IRA afer the next election.

dont bet on it, i remember labours "get the bastards out " line in '91 and guess who they crawled into bed with. this is politics were talking about

cork wrote:

Labour, FF, FG and PDs stood for democratic politics when the IRA were robbing post offices in Adare.

and when collins did the treaty with the brits after the war of independance it was who was gonna become FF who were robbing post offices and killing police men then ,the only difference, TIME . your talking about a DEFUNCT organisation the RA s gone get over it.
Sinn Fein ARE gonna be a player in the next dail, my own personal opinion is they'll TRIPLE their vote, mainly because the electorate like most ian paisley voters, WONT come out and say it for fear of being flamed. and untill anther party comes along to challenge em i really cant see em ending up like the PDs, i.e core vote, but LOW seat numbers.(and remember when the PDs started, they had 20 seats)

and if your looking to the polls for succor, remember this. the citizen referendum was ment to be a two horse race and ended up being endorced by 80% (i must be the only guy in dublin to vote no to that) and last time i checked royston brady ISNT an MEP

constitutionus

Firespinner wrote:

This will take quite a reply:
1. It is worse to be connected to the IRA than IBEC.

duh

firespinner wrote:

2.A brain drain is one of the most destructive things to happen to third world countries. People may actually not want to retard a poor countries growth (see make poverty history)

DOESNT seem to bother em when the consultants end up mopping up puke in our restaurants for minimum wage, instead of working in our health service for 35k a year. as i stated earlier the amount of HIGHLY educated people doing menial jobs in this country because vested interests have a closed shop is disgusting.

firespinner wrote:

3."Stealing" money from pensioners. That money is ment to pay for food, toiletries etc. They recieve this while in nursing homes. Therefore it is not stealing merely preventing them being double-payed.

then why did the SUPEREME COURT tell mary harney the pracitce was illeagal and she tried to ennact UNCONSTITUTIONAL legislation to weasel out of having to pay the money back people lost their homes over this while the medical cards they had COVERD them for all expenses, it was THEFT simple as that.

firespinner wrote:

4."Organ Legging" This was organised by doctors not the government. Those organs went on to save many lives worldwide. Don't judge yesterday by today's standards.

so WHY is no one in jail those organs DIDNT go on to save lives they went on to drug companies who made profits from em. and the organ retention scandal broke 7yrs ago, WELL into the current government reign of the last 10yrs,we've spent 20 million on a report NO ONES seen and got fobbed off on an investigation costing half a million which basically said "it was the culture of the day, no ones responsible":mad: well 20yrs ago the culture of the day was massive tax evasion, can i have mine back :rolleyes:
these WERNT alturistic individuals, they were and still ARE criminals and need to be taken to task

firespinner wrote:

5.Deal was made with the church because there was so little evidence left that most claims would have been rejected. Thus the victims would get no justice. The church does not pay because only about one in ten cases would have been won otherwise. They did it to protect the "raped children"

if this is true how come its costing US over a billion , and how come the deal was done on the afternoon of the last day of the dail at christmas . remember the deal was to INDEMNIFY the church, meaning WE take up the responsiblity of their crimes. it had nothing to do with justice for the innocent people who were abused, and id like to know where you got your figuers on how the victims could only win one in ten cases when at the time the state made the deal they didnt even KNOW how many cases they were. at the time they thought they were picking up the tag for about a third of the total bill. and now were stuck with 90%

firespinner wrote:

7.Tax avoidance is legal. Single-mothers do it when they claim concessions. This situation could not be blamed on any party but on a few smart-alleced accountants who figured out the most profitable ways to twist the system. These ways are being dismantled.

how many single mother do you know on board of banks?, i know a few who got busted for cheating on their social welfare but know of NO banks managers who went down over the off shore resident accounts. that wasnt "twisting the system" that was FRAUD. the people the bank facilitated with these accounts are facing prosecution over this but the banks get away with a fine (of shareholders money). and your right they are dismanteling the old systems because they have new ways to do this now. my favorite is the "administerative error" route where your charged MORE than you should be and if you notice it your refunded, if you dont.....
remember the banking sector had to be forced into telling people about dead accounts. up untill the mid 90's if your dead mother had a million in a bank and you didnt know about it they kept using it as capital and charging the fees to the account which they then took off the interest. we're not dealing with paragons of virtue here and it doesnt help no one goes down. im starting to think we'll need a nick leason type scandal to put an armani jacket behind a prison door.(which could be happening, currently the IFSC is being investigated for some sort of illeagal activity by australia of all places, so watch this space)

firespinner wrote:

8.Again the hepetitus scandal was not the fault of any minister but of the doctors. They did not all have to go to court-only those who wanted more than the rest.

so it WASNT michael noonan who hounded them to the steps of the courts then, funny i though i heard him apologise for that. the minister is responsible for their departments. as soon as he knew something was wrong he should have intervened, instead the government closed ranks and denied ANY responsiblity in the matter. the VICTIMS were getting nothing from the goverment, in fact the government IMPLIED the victims caught aids and hep c from "other" means, ill leave it to your imagination what THAT slur is about:mad:

firespinner wrote:

9.The IRA did not know it was against the law, because they did not recogise the law.

TRUE but the ira knew if they were caught they'd go to jail, as i stated earlier from ALL the scandles in this state practically NOBODY went to jail. now WHERE is the logic in MILLIONS being spent on this and no one going down and what signal does it give to those STILL engaged criminal activity in the public sector
at least the french and the brits JAIL their monsters,we give em indexed linked pensions

Diorraing

Cork wrote:

What would you call the killers of Robert McCartney, Jean McConville or those who planted the bomb at Warrington?

The IRA are gone. The fact that you keep bringing them up in your arguments shows that you are insecure of SF, that you can't attack them on their actual policies and that you have to use a non-existent terrorist organisation to beat them. As for calling them SF/IRA the whole time - that is a derogitory unionist term and one which insults the voters of Sinn Fein. They, if no-one else deserve that the party they vote for be treated like an actual party.
If you continue to use the term I don't see why people shouldn't start using terms such as FF/IRA, FG/IRA, PD/IRA - they all originated from the IRA didn't they - just at different times. You are clearly insecure about the growth of SF but resorting to pathetic name calling and digging up stuff about the IRA is not going to hold up in a debate.

Hint: They have crap economic policies - attack them on that

shroomfox

Firespinner wrote:

Interestinly enough we are still abou 30% public 70%private. That is still alot of public

I mean that by the amount of freedom corporations have operating in Ireland.

Diorraing

Diorraing wrote:

The IRA are gone. The fact that you keep bringing them up in your arguments shows that you are insecure of SF, that you can't attack them on their actual policies and that you have to use a non-existent terrorist organisation to beat them.

If its the IMC that you use to conclude that,I'd await their report.
It's widely reported this morning that the IMC will say the IRA are widely still inteligence gathering and involved in criminality.
None of the other parties in the Dáil are closely associated with criminal gangs ergo there are grounds still to be dubvious on that score if thats what the IMC report says.
You cant expect an old dog to learn new tricks so easily but while its still failing to learn what is expected in a law abiding democracy-Valid criticism is still Valid.

oscarBravo

constitutionus wrote:

those organs DIDNT go on to save lives

You have evidence for this assertion, of course.

The_Minister

constitutionus wrote:

DOESNT seem to bother em when the consultants end up mopping up puke in our restaurants for minimum wage, instead of working in our health service for 35k a year. as i stated earlier the amount of HIGHLY educated people doing menial jobs in this country because vested interests have a closed shop is disgusting.

C'mon don't pretend you don't like Quantum Engineers cleaning your floors:D .
It is normally a language thing that stops them getting jobs. I worked in a hospital a while back and half the doctors were foreign. Give them a few more years and several will ascend to become consultants. (I think there was one from Chad who was one already)

constitutionus wrote:

then why did the SUPEREME COURT tell mary harney the pracitce was illeagal and she tried to ennact UNCONSTITUTIONAL legislation to weasel out of having to pay the money back people lost their homes over this while the medical cards they had COVERD them for all expenses, it was THEFT simple as that. .

Just because the Supreme Court was said it was unconstitutional does NOT mean it was wrong. It did not directly conflict with the Constitution but only was repugnant in that airy fairy "its not in there but we assure you its in there way".

constitutionus wrote:

so WHY is no one in jail those organs DIDNT go on to save lives they went on to drug companies who made profits from em. and the organ retention scandal broke 7yrs ago, WELL into the current government reign of the last 10yrs,we've spent 20 million on a report NO ONES seen and got fobbed off on an investigation costing half a million which basically said "it was the culture of the day, no ones responsible":mad: well 20yrs ago the culture of the day was massive tax evasion, can i have mine back :rolleyes:
these WERNT alturistic individuals, they were and still ARE criminals and need to be taken to task.

Those organs DID save lives. They were used to produce enzymes of which there was a worldwide shortage. What makes you think they didn't save lives. Yes, drug companies experimented on them, and found ways to produce those enzymes artificially, so we no longer need to use those organs and many lives are saved. The doctors did not make a profit but saved lives so I would call them altruistic individuals. Thet AREN'T criminals but merely people who did what was needed.

constitutionus wrote:

if this is true how come its costing US over a billion , and how come the deal was done on the afternoon of the last day of the dail at christmas . remember the deal was to INDEMNIFY the church, meaning WE take up the responsiblity of their crimes. it had nothing to do with justice for the innocent people who were abused, and id like to know where you got your figuers on how the victims could only win one in ten cases when at the time the state made the deal they didnt even KNOW how many cases they were. at the time they thought they were picking up the tag for about a third of the total bill. and now were stuck with 90%.

It was either :
1. the church be indemnified
2. It was fought in court and every victim who forgot to keep the semen would have got no justice.

We are stuck with the bill because the state is forcing the church to except a lower burden of proof to ensure that justice is achieved.

constitutionus wrote:

how many single mother do you know on board of banks?, i know a few who got busted for cheating on their social welfare but know of NO banks managers who went down over the off shore resident accounts. that wasnt "twisting the system" that was FRAUD. the people the bank facilitated with these accounts are facing prosecution over this but the banks get away with a fine (of shareholders money). and your right they are dismanteling the old systems because they have new ways to do this now. my favorite is the "administerative error" route where your charged MORE than you should be and if you notice it your refunded, if you dont.....
remember the banking sector had to be forced into telling people about dead accounts. up untill the mid 90's if your dead mother had a million in a bank and you didnt know about it they kept using it as capital and charging the fees to the account which they then took off the interest. we're not dealing with paragons of virtue here and it doesnt help no one goes down. im starting to think we'll need a nick leason type scandal to put an armani jacket behind a prison door.(which could be happening, currently the IFSC is being investigated for some sort of illeagal activity by australia of all places, so watch this space).

Banks are dicks. Everywhere. But at least they paid big fines

constitutionus wrote:

so it WASNT michael noonan who hounded them to the steps of the courts then, funny i though i heard him apologise for that. the minister is responsible for their departments. as soon as he knew something was wrong he should have intervened, instead the government closed ranks and denied ANY responsiblity in the matter. the VICTIMS were getting nothing from the goverment, in fact the government IMPLIED the victims caught aids and hep c from "other" means, ill leave it to your imagination what THAT slur is about:mad: .

1. There was a time when they thought AIDS could ONLY be caught by sex.
2. They only had to go to the courts if they didn't take the compensation that most of the victims took. Noonan was hounding them for being greedy and wanting more.

constitutionus wrote:

TRUE but the ira knew if they were caught they'd go to jail, as i stated earlier from ALL the scandles in this state practically NOBODY went to jail. now WHERE is the logic in MILLIONS being spent on this and no one going down and what signal does it give to those STILL engaged criminal activity in the public sector
at least the french and the brits JAIL their monsters,we give em indexed linked pensions

Most of the time there is no-one to send to jail.
The rest....haven't done anything viscious or purposful enough to deserve it

Time Magazine

constitutionus wrote:

but the basic principal is the same, WHY dont they have any support in the area? surely if theyre doing a good job they can at LEAST get someone to drop in mail shots?

You're wrong there.

what a politician SAYs is irrelevant, its what they do. and they dont preform actively in my area, as such dont get any support from locals and in the end DONT get the vote. the MAIN reasons politicians didnt canvas my area in MY opinion (so im open to correction) is because of the low turn out at elections. for example at the council elections before the most rescent the turn out was 28%:eek: abysmally low. so the politicans seemed to think "they dont vote so they dont matter".

Maybe you're right. If people don't bother to vote they don't deserve a voice, imo. They could at least spoil their vote. In a politician's eyes there's a massive difference to a 28% successful vote turnout if there's a 72% spoiled vote associated therewith.

LAST council elections the turn out was 60%:) (IRREGARDLESS of who you support this is good, democracy NEEDS large turnouts to stop it becoming compromised). and as a result nearly ALL the sitting councillors were kicked out . in fact theres only ONE pd and ONE FF councilor on my council (and even the FF guy is a guy in his twenties from the local communinty, NOT some pseudo aristocracy type whos DA was on the council before him)

What's wrong if my dad was a councillor? Does that make me less qualified for the job

P.S they most assuredly were scared to come in as well because theres PALPABLE anger in my area about what the government is up ,particularly seeing as its mainly PAYE workers pissed off about the bin tax so i wont be surprised if they dont turn up in 17months time either, especially labour, who brought that tax in (thank you deromt lacey)

Don't get me started on the bin tax. It has to be paid for one way or another. Waste also has to be cut to save our bloody environment. It is an incentive scheme for people to not waste as much/recycle more. You'd be paying it anyway through direct taxation - only the guy beside you who earns twice as much would pay the exact same amount. That's not fair.

ah yes the economists, would these be guys like dan maglouchlan from bank of ireland who think the whole irish ferries thing is the way to go and that were all wrong to stop a company acting that way.

You don't understand economics. Please read up on the Law of Comparative Advantage, and why we need a knowledge-based economy.

or the other ones who keep telling us the housing marked is gonna bust any day now .... fact is when the interest rates go up, and they WILL go up because we've lived through the longest period of low interest rates in recent EUROPEAN history, many of the people with houses out there are gonna end up in repo-ville

So you're doing exactly what the economists are doing.

and that this government has stood over the LARGEST acculminaton of personal dept in the history of the state. . combine that with what OTHER economists are saying about the american economy in 2007 and we could see the multinationsals pulling out too, relocating to china india and north korea (who despite what some of you think are gearing themselves up to be the IT capital of the world, they have whole purpose built science city's for gods sake. and if you think we can compete against a regiem like that paying IT specialist 1 dollor a day your mad)

So we have to adapt to a knowledge-based economy. Also read up on exchange rate mechanisms and demand; and why incomes of states are converging. If they become richer, they won't be charging $1 a day. Which is, by the way, the root of the Irish Ferries issue. We can't offer wages of E4 an hour; Latvia can. Read up on Purchasing Power Parity.

first off i consider myself a constitutional republican, which means i DONT belive in a class sysem, an aristocracy or the impossition of privilage. and like it or not as a REPUBLIC thats what we are.

We don't have an aristocracy.

but its OBIVOUS this isnt what some people in politics believe, and anyone with a brain can see what vested interests in this country have done to look after their own arse.(see any of the tribunals. millions of quid, ONE bloke of significance goes down )

And unions? What's the difference between an oil cartel and a union?

as stated MY reason for voting SF is because i want to improve the QUALITY of debate in the dai

In my experience, SF/HIV members are the least articulate of all politically-active people. For the most part they join as a protest group and not for any particular aim. A couple of years ago, at a SF Ard Fheis, there were motions to both (i)legalise cannabis usage; and (ii)prohibit tobacco possession. Go debating! Even the guy who can't think says something. "Where did you get your clothes... the toilet store?"

which we dont get. need i remind you what a hot potato immigration is now at the moment?

Our debate, for several reasons, is mostly held through the media.

presonally i think once we accepted NICE that was the end of the issue,

Agreed.

BUT all the mainstream parties at the LAST election made A PACT not to discuss the issue.

Like unions make pacts? . There's nothing wrong about pacts. And the reason for that is to avoid inflammatory remarks and keep the tide of racism low.

now how is that healthy for democracy?

Yes, because racialism is not healthy for democracy.

what does it say about our main parties,what if they decide to do the same this time with health, or policing?

That there's a common agenda? And no, there's no agreement on what to do with health or policing.

oppositions are MENT to oppose, THATS why theyre there.

Not per se. Only if something needs to be opposed.

SF will do that, the others wont because as posted earlier by another person, theres no REAL difference besides who's in the driving seat.

SF will oppose anything and everything, even if it's good and in the best interest of the people, to gain the votes of the protestors. Is that good for democracy?

and by the way i resent the assumption that the sole purpose in modern life is to MAKE MONEY.

It's not an assumption.

Im not interested in being "wealthy", what i want is a DESCENT standard of living

I'd consider the two to be fairly linked.

public services paid for by my taxes that ACTUALLY work

Me too, and that requires wealth. Be it nicer seats on busses or decent facilities for universities, there's nothing wrong with some more wealth on its own.

and to live in a SOCIETY where people look out for each other.

Sinn Fein's punishment beatings go a long way to that, yeah? Look up statistics, actually. As GDP increases, petty crime plummets. There is a very strong, empirical, international negative correlation. I think petty crime lowers standard of life.

NOT the souless corporate culture we live in now where people are so isolated they dont even know their own neighbour and wouldnt know they were DEAD til the smell.

And SF will foster this how? If SF could bring in a Minimum Hours of Sunshine Bill, I'd support it.

living in enviroments so unsecure that they spend ALL their working life praying theyre not downsized because they have a 35yr mortgage and hoping against hope the wife DOESNT get pregnant because they cant afford kids. and ALL of this against a backdrop of continous whittling away of rights and entitlements in the workplace

Actually, if you look at the figures, people are having kids a plenty at the moment because they have the wealth to afford them. There is a direct trade-off between knowing your neighbours and being able to afford kids and having a good bus service.

......

Time Magazine

micheal martin and mary harney,BOTH colluded in stealing money from pensioner up to LAST YEAR. thats not antiquity , thats BOTH incarnations of the PRESENT government (and im not to happy about the feckers in FG and LABOUR that were at it in their day) What happened to the file minister martin was MENT to get, IF it was destroyed WHY isnt the person responsible being investigated and charged with destruction of evidence? the government and subsequent governments KNEW this was illeagal, did everything in their power to stimy investigation and in the end tried to act UNCONSTITUTIONALLY to push it under the rug , forcing mary macallese for the FIRST time in my memory to actuall DO her job and refer the bill to the courts, now 2 BILLION of YOUR tax money will be used to compensate these people. these are NOT people i have faith in (although in fairness to mary, shes only just in the door and HAS brought it to a conculsion , but theres STILL the question about why nothing has been done to take FORMER minsiters to task:mad: )

That was bad. And the attempt to screw over was bad too. But the Supreme Court squashed it and now it's rectified. What more do you want? Their blood? And before you say resignation, what's Fine Gael's biggest issue for the next election? Government accountability.

the ONLY reason we have a minimum wage is because of the unions:rolleyes:

That's absolute bullsh*t. Absolute sh*te.

if it was left the IBEC (the same people currently trying to dictate education policy)

Oh for God's sake.

we wouldnt have one because its "uncompetative"

Yeah, and it's not left to IBEC, it's up to the govt. What's wrong there? If it was left to the unions it would be placed too high.

the PDs are NOT in favor of the minimum wage and would be happy to see it go.

That's bullsh*t too. One of my best friends is a fairly high-ranking PD and it's his proudest part of PD policy. They even place it on their manifestos.

hell the employers we're bemoaning the fact ours is so high, yet now it looks set to be the STANDARD wage of half the work force (its already 700k out of 2million, so were ALMOST there:rolleyes: )

also being capatilist ISNT just about wages , its the service as well, people are talking about privitising dublin bus but tell me this , how long do you think a private company will run UNPROFITABLE routes?

Not long. But they'll make potentially profitable routes profitable, and the state will provide the service for the unprofitable ones. The State are currently handing out E60m a year to Dublin Bus - a service I use twice a day - so I can can vouch for the fact that they're absolutely crap. I threatened to complain about a bus driver who was acting the maggot and he responded with "Go ahead, I'm in the union". Do you not think that's as bad as these terrible county councillors not visiting your house?

there are pensioners down the road from me who lost their bus service because dublin bus merged two routes into one, now it takes 30minutes longer in journey time and the pensioners area is bypassed compleatly:eek: as its STILL a public company we can campaign to get it back with the help of local reps, but you'd have SOD all chance of that happening with a private company

You're right. Privatisation isn't perfect. But now let's equally take my route, where the bus drivers regularly (and seemingly systematically) drive past bus stops, buses do not turn up, are constantly late, and do not have the capital necessary to carry the numbers.

WHEN DID I SAY WE SHOULD LEAVE EUROPE

You're not the only person on this thread. I was referring to the SF guy earlier, Zebra or something was his name.

im sick to the back teeth of people jumping from one extreme to the other on this issue, denmark ISNT in the euro, but thery're STILL in the union. WE joined the EEC and it helped us IMMEASURABLY,and ive no problem with us trading goods with a common currency and having a free movement of labour.

Unless it's Irish Ferries .

i DO have a problem with a EU CONSTITUTION that supercecede OUR OWN

Even if it's voted in by our people? Anyway, our constitution is already superceded by the ECtHr.

im the FIRST generation of my family who can call himself an irish citizen and im SICKENED how quickly people seem to want to give away the sovereingty that people DIED for and members of my own family fought for, for a BIG bucket of cash. self determinaton is our RIGHT. and i'd rather be a piss poor country with FREEDOM than a rich one with all the power of rhode island in the USA.

We still have freedom in the EU for God's sake. In fact I argue we've more freedom. David Norris was going to be convicted in 1982 of buggery under the Offences Against the Person Act (1861). He brought his case to the Supreme Court and was told that that Act was vitally important to curb the tide of homosexuality. He toddled off to Europe who rectified the situation. Or the case of Joseph Keegan [Keegan v Ireland] who was not allowed have any say when he objected to the placing of his daughter for adoption; only for Europe to say "get your act together fairly lively lads".

and to be brutally honest can ANYONE actually tell me WHAT the EU is all about?

Preventing war through making it undesirable through integration.

we're expanding ALL the time and noone seems to know where the limit is. turkey?

Turkey, Russia, Israel at a push. That's it.

RUSSIA, will it absorb CHINA IN THE END

No.

no one knows because they havent a bloody clue.

That's another lie.

and remember the MORE members that join the LESS influence we have.

And the less chance of war there is.

the new accession countries for instance DONT have equal status to us, they have no veto (the MAIN reason i voted against the NICE treaty, i DONT believe in a yellow pack EU membership:mad: )

And that's why we need a constitution/

and if memory serves ratification of the EU constitution would have REMOVED ours.

You can't have everyone having a veto; or else you end up like the UN. If every country in the world wanted to invade America for genocide (hypothetically), they couldn't do it through the UN mechanism.

think LONG and hard on this because the ONLY guarenttee we currently have of the EU services directorate not being enacted is , you guessed it, the use of our veto.

Directorate hehe. And what about the free movement of labour you mentioned? Or economic logic to pay for the buses your elderly neighbours want? Or the onslaught of competition from Asia?

Diorraing

Earthman wrote:

You cant expect an old dog to learn new tricks so easily but while its still failing to learn what is expected in a law abiding democracy-Valid criticism is still Valid.

FF/IRA did. They were treated like a normal party less than 10 years after the civil war. Double standards, earthman

Diorraing

Diorraing wrote:

FF/IRA did. They were treated like a normal party less than 10 years after the civil war. Double standards, earthman

Not so
What I said is common sense.No other party in the Dáil has connections with a body that the IMC apparently is going to conclude is involved in criminality-Ergo SF are by a considerable amount of people treated differently and suspiciously and understandably so.
Dealth with that long ago in several and many threads. .You are attempting to apply something that was acceptable at the start of the 20th century as if it was acceptable today.
That cannot be done for obvious reasons.

When FF was founded , womens rights were poor
If their husband died and they had no children, his family got the house the wife could be turfed out.

I wont even go into what else was acceptable back then.
But if you want to compare the attitudes of people in the 20's and 30's with whats acceptable today then why stop there...

Spanish inquisitions were popular a few hundred years ago-lets reintroduce them on that logic-After all thats an extention of going back well beyond modern times to say it was done back then so lets do it now.

You simply cannot drag up what was acceptable 80 years ago and apply it today as doing so selectively would indeed be double standards.

Now you said the IRA have gone away-Lets wait and see what the IMC says as regards their going away rather than dismiss what another poster says with a statement that isnt the case (yet)

Cooee

anyone but Sinn Fein. They have a set of ridiculous, ultra left wing, 1970s policies. They get votes based on local work not on national policies. I would be terrified if they got any hold of the reins of power.
We'd have wealth taxes, nationalised everything. Utter madness.

Things are bad enough with the idiots currently the country but add those boyos to the mix and it's back to the 70s/80s.

shroomfox

1. I have astma, and thanks to Mary Harney there is no more smog so I have lived past five.

What, did she swallow it all or something?

Also, who wants the bloody north? Hands up? I don't. If I had my way I'd cut around the border with my enormous scissors, steer it round Donegal and kick it off Iceland-ward. Maybe Bjork will shut them all up.

Privatisation works in some sectors, and doesn't in others. And there's no reason why you can't have privatised sectors with regulation so that, for example, pensioners get free passes. Or certain unprofitable routes get subsidised. But I'm sick of people talking about privatisation as if it were some holy grail to save us from the woes of any tiny problem in any state industry.

The_Minister

shroomfox wrote:

What, did she swallow it all or something? .

She was a junior minister and took on a senior minister over the issue. She then had to go over his head and go to the taoiseach. Thanks to her determination we saved the modern equivilant of billions and got rid of our smog.

shroomfox wrote:

. But I'm sick of people talking about privatisation as if it were some holy grail to save us from the woes of any tiny problem in any state industry.

Privitisation is useful to unload companies with unfixable problems ie. An Post.
No-one says it solves everything and no-one believes that everything should be privitised. It is just that private companies tend to be more efficient than public companies

Kojak

"Which party do you support / will vote for?"

I dont support any of them and definatly wont be voting in the next election (I couldn't even if I wanted to - I'm not registered. )

ionapaul

I will vote PD, FG in that order. I will fill my ballot out and would probably give Labour and even maybe FF candidates lower preferences, based on how much they impress me. I would also vote tactically to deny the SF candidate a seat, if that opportunity presents itself.

ateam

Kojak wrote:

"Which party do you support / will vote for?"

I dont support any of them and definatly wont be voting in the next election (I couldn't even if I wanted to - I'm not registered. )

That's the deomocratic spirit!