Palestinians plump for Hamas...

Well don't come crying to the rest of the world next time Israel sends in a few gunships, why don't you go to the clinic of your local friendly political representative and tell him to go try on a few bombs...

While a tiny part of me thinks this might give any opportunity for a peaceful solution a shot in the arm, most of me thinks electing terrorists is not a hopeful development.

sovtek

Hamas have a political wing as well as having organised charitable orgs. They pretty much mirror most modern resistance groups not unlike the ANC and Sinn Fein.
Sharon's policies might very well have driven people to Hamas.
Again the "west" is the bringer or democracy, except of course, when it doesn't suit us.

Snickers Man

Deleted User wrote:

Well don't come crying to the rest of the world next time Israel sends in a few gunships, why don't you go to the clinic of your local friendly political representative and tell him to go try on a few bombs...

While a tiny part of me thinks this might give any opportunity for a peaceful solution a shot in the arm, most of me thinks electing terrorists is not a hopeful development.

I think the Arabs have long given up expecting us to cry for them. They look out for their own. And the Israeli tactic of demanding first and foremost that every Arab they negotiate with must be a Zionist policeman and that their first priority is to lock up their own fellow countrymen, leads inevitably to an erosion of what centre ground there is and a shift to extremism.

What did the Israelis ever do to help Abbas other than demand of him that he send police in to shoot up his own refugee camps?

They know the score. They want their scrap of land, they're prepared to fight for it; they're prepared to spend most of their lives in the army to pay for it. All that and they want our sympathy too?

**** 'em.

Likud/Sharon's new gang and Hamas deserve each other.

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote:

Well don't come crying to the rest of the world next time Israel sends in a few gunships

Even if Isreal commits terrorist acts?

netwhizkid

Dubya was sounding his trumpet on Hamas this evening on the news. I guess regardless of where it is people will vote for change when they are been left in the lurch. Perhaps Hamas can deliver an Independent Palestine, lets hope they do, it solve a lot of the reasons why Muslims hate the west and Christianity so much.

Akrasia

The palestinians have the right to vote for whoever they want. Isn't democracy wonderful. Now where are all those folk with their purple fingers?

The Baler

Sharon must be turning in his hospital bed!!! He pushed the military agenda, now he and the chosen people must adhere to the wishes of the Palestinian people. This event is the kick up the arse the right wingers of Likud deserve.

Let the games start!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

Kilsally

what is? The fact that Hamas stated that Israel does not have a right to exist?

ronbyrne2005

its amazing how the democracy the bush regime want to instill in muslim world so often delivers results that dont please them, ahmaddinijad in iran,hamas in free palestine,iran backed shiites in iraq, while the non democratic countries they back such as egypt and saudi arabia continue to please them generally.maybe bush and co will reconsider this democracy lark in the next few years as they hark after the dictators of the past that gave them sleep filled nights and relative security and srategic satisfaction such as the shah saddam etc.
if the palestinians really want an escalation of the militancy then they are in for decades more oppression by the israelis many of whom are glad to see hamas elected as it gives them more legitimacy in their efforts to crush the palestinians.

breandan

Theres the old saying of be careful what you wish for as you might just get it!
That came back to me today when thinking of Bush's desire for democracy int he Middle East.
Of course he is right to want 'democracy' (although to me democracy is about much more than being allowed to vote but thats for another thread) but in the Middle East what does democracy actually mean?

What if Bush were to somehow 'get rid' of the Syrian Regime?
Well Mr Bush that regime is a Shi'ite sect while the majority of the population are Sunni whom strongly idenify with their Iraqi cousines (infact several tribes traditionally straddle both sides of the Syrian/Iraqi boarder) and its likely that a post Asad government (assuming that one could be formed and the country didnt decend into chaos) would have strong Sunni and Islamic ideals and we all have a fair idea of what that would mean for the fight the Americans are having in AL Anbar at the moment.

What about actually allowing the people of Saudi decide who they actually want to govern them?
Have you heard of the Whahhabi Sunni Mr Bush?
Lots of them in Saudi and again Saudi is joined to Iraq at a region where the local tribes who are Sunni have close bonds with their Iraqi cousines.
There is also a strong Shia minority right smack bang next to southern Iraq who have been agitating more openly lately since the installation of a Shia dominated government in Baghdad.

Isnt it time Musharaff stepped aside and allowed democratic elections in Pakistan?
I'll say this to you Mr Bush.......Baluchistan, Waziristan!

What about Yemen then?
Anarchy Mr President!
The country is ridden with waring tribes and Islamic fundamentalists and would be unlikely to hold together without a strong man.

Even, where there was by all accounts reasonably free and fair democratic election ie. Afghanistan it simply hasnt brought 'democracy' to this region as Talibean remnants are again starting to show their tracks over much of the voilence south and east of Kabul, many such attacks being funded armed and maned by elements from...............Waziristan and Baluchistan.

So whats the answer?
Damned if I know but eventually its gonna have to be realized in Washington and the middle east (islamic world) that what has gone before hasnt worked (for the most part).
Whats happening now doesnt seem to be working (might do eventually but doesnt seem likely) and that maybe some new way must be found?
Maybe a type of democracy where the people within a nation can choose if in local areas they want to be governed by tribal rule or religious rule who would then form a central council to decide on national matters?
It has got to make more sense to adapt 'democracy' to the needs of the local population and customs than trying to adapt a whole religious (islamic) and tribal culture to suite a western brand of one man one vote and see ye'all in four years!
Of course in modern Islamic cities Im sure a religious and or tribal way of governing would not be relevent but here again a way that suites the local needs might be found that can help people of different sect to live together and live with their neighbour and us (the west).

But long term, with the increasing population in the middle east, the increasing draw of radical islam to the dissafected urban poor, and the decrease of natural resources in the region, that being water first and foremost and eventually oil.
I simply cannot see a lasting peace in the region while there is an American backed Jewish state sitting smack bang in the middle of the Islamic world where lunatic radicals are constantly agitating the young and vunerable arab youth.

Hobbes

Kilsally wrote:

what is? The fact that Hamas stated that Israel does not have a right to exist?

They didn't just state it, it was actually one of their election promises if I recall correctly.

Snickers Man

Did anyone else find it ironic that Channel 4 aired a documentary on the Israeli assassination mission in the wake of the Munich massacre on the very day that Hamas won such a huge victory in the Palestinian election?

That was more than 30 years ago and they are still nowhere near putting a stop to 'Terr Roar'

The Baler

The Baler wrote:

This event is the kick up the arse the right wingers of Likud deserve.

On the contrary, it now gives them the opportunity to up the ante and be far more forecful. The US and EU will back them all the way, and they can turn around and shrug their shoulders and claim that when the Palestinians elect terrorists it becomes open season on them. I'd say they're rubbing their hands with glee, but the moderate Israelis must be depressed...

hill16

Israel is a terrorist state that has caused thousands of deaths in Palestine.I think Hamas in power is bad for the Palestine people.

Suff

I think its about time!
Israel want the Palestinians to disarm yet Israel is getting FREE weapons from the US!!!
if you look at the previous history of talks between the two, one thing for sure that Israel use the term
"Shoot first and never ask questions!"
so if a Palestinians movment who desided to use the same Language that Israel uses this is considered as an illegal and a terror act ??? really!
dont forget that Israel has a blind backing from the USA no matter what they do [UN Resolutions that the US vetoed so it wont effect Israel]

the Palestinians have had suffered more than 100 years now [First wave of immigration (Alija), 30,000 Jews from Eastern Europe arrive in Palestine in 1903, link] so let them take the actions that suits them, they know what they want!

FREE Palestinian

Suff

Suff wrote:

Israel want the Palestinians to disarm yet Israel is getting FREE weapons from the US!!!

Well, in Ireland we wanted the IRA to disarm while getting FREE weapons from the UN!!!

And the Palestinians get nothing from the countries that border Israel on nearly every side? The Palestinains get other countries to fight their wars for them - they just happen to be rather bad at it - and everyone thinks the US giving aid to Israel is something shocking.

Suff

Deleted User wrote:

Well, in Ireland we wanted the IRA to disarm while getting FREE weapons from the UN!!!

And the Palestinians get nothing from the countries that border Israel on nearly every side? The Palestinains get other countries to fight their wars for them - they just happen to be rather bad at it - and everyone thinks the US giving aid to Israel is something shocking.

Ireland is not imposing an occupation !

All neighbouring countries had offered their land for the hundreds of thousends of refugees back in the early 1900's

Palestinains have no state army [not allowed to become one], they are fighting a fully and heavily armed force.
if the US started to give the same aid to Palestinains then it would be a fair thing!

hill16

The Yanks invaded Iraq because they broke a UN resolution and were suposed to have weapons of mass destruction,yet they give aid to Israel which has ignored about a dozen UN resolutions,killed thousands of people,has nucelar weapons and illegally occupies another country.

hill16

hill16 wrote:

The Yanks invaded Iraq because they broke a UN resolution and were suposed to have weapons of mass destruction,yet they give aid to Israel which has ignored about a dozen UN resolutions,killed thousands of people,has nucelar weapons and illegally occupies another country.

In your book how is that different to the IRA's illegal war and their illegal bombing of warrington?

hill16

Sorry eathman I think this post is about Palestine.

Suff

Suff wrote:

if the US started to give the same aid to Palestinains then it would be a fair thing!

Alternatively, things could be levelled up if Jordan, Syria, Egypt and all other Arab countries that have tangled with Israel started launching the odd attack against the Palestinians...

Suff

Why in God's nam would they do that!!!???
all of them have spend money, time, effort and even lives in order to help palestine.

Suff

Suff wrote:

Why in God's nam would they do that!!!???
all of them have spend money, time, effort and even lives in order to help palestine.

So you can't see any reason why they should not help Palestine, even with their very lives?

Yet you find the very fact that the US helps Israel through money outrageous.



Do you not see any small inconsistency? I suspect you are assuming the USA is bad and then building your argument around that, rather than the idea that intervention per se by any country is bad.

Suff

How is it strange if you help your brother (arabs helping arabs)???
and why do you want harm for Palestine!????
the USA is providing Billions each year and free weapons, so give some of that to the other side to be a fair game.

Suff

Suff wrote:

How is it strange if you help your brother (arabs helping arabs)???

If it's acceptable for the Arabs to gang up, in your opinion, surely it is acceptable for the Jews to gang up, or the white man to gang up?

You are finding it very difficult to give a cogent reason as to why Arabs should be free to help Palestinians, but the US should not help Israel, aren't you? That's because lots of people instinctively hate US or UK intervention, but can't really articulate why they should hate the same agresseive foreign policy by other countries. On a tangent, bet a lot more object to the US than say the Russian atrocities in Chechnya...

hill16

Conor74,in an earlier post I gave some good reasons why the Yanks should not aid Israel.

hill16

hill16 wrote:

Sorry eathman I think this post is about Palestine.

I beg to differ.
Consistency across threads is a given.
Now explain to me how the US carrying out an illegal war/Israel ignoring UN resolutions is any different from the IRA doing the same in your book?

You must condemn both or none at all.
Other wise its one rule for people you agree with and a different one for those you don't agree with.
Ie hypocrisy...

gurramok

Plus Israel by de facto helped Hamas win by denying the vast majority of 100,000 voters in Jerusalem to vote where Hamas is weakest.
Making them travel countless miles outside their city to vote discouraged this section of population to vote for their usual Fatah rep.

hill16

hill16 wrote:

Conor74,in an earlier post I gave some good reasons why the Yanks should not aid Israel.

You said they are a terrorist state? You've gotta admit that the Palestinians certainly don't have anything to be shy about in that regard now...

I'm not saying the Jews are right, the Arabs are wrong, Israel is some great state - all I'm looking for is consistency, and I don't see why anyone can argue the US helping Israel is so terrible but other Arabs helping Palestine is really just fine and dandy. The old saying is what's suace for the goose and so on. Intervention is intervention, whether or not it is good is really judged by what someone thinks of the original protagonists.

hill16

It is illegal for a country to invade another country e.g Israel-Palestine,Britain-Ireland,USA-Iraq etc,in my book it is not illegal to fight back.So to answer your question in my opinion the IRA was right to bomb England.

hill16

hill16 wrote:

It is illegal for a country to invade another country e.g Israel-Palestine,Britain-Ireland,USA-Iraq etc,in my book it is not illegal to fight back.So to answer your question in my opinion the IRA was right to bomb England.

Ah thats just pure nonsense.
That said you are now banned permanently good bye.