Palestinians plump for Hamas...

hill16

hill16 wrote:

It is illegal for a country to invade another country e.g Israel-Palestine

When did the State of Israel invade the State of Palestine?

mike65

Anyway after the usual crap back to the topic at hand!

What does the 'success' of Hamas actual mean for the average Palestianian?

The reason Hamas did so well was'nt because of thier "Death to Israel and her Allies" policy or the love of 7th century Islamic Law it was entirely down the 40 years of corruption and mal-administration under Yassar Arafat and Fata. They got rich while the great unwashed suffered (and not just cos of Israeli policy, Arafat blew more than one oppotunity for improve the lot of 'his' people).

Now suddenly the 'nutters' are in charge and I suspect they are as scared as
anyone. They now have to deliver on the promise of a better tomorrow and its unlikely they have the calibre of men (doubt Hamass have to may women in top positions) to make it happen.

I've a feeling a deal will be done with Fata as they at least know where the levers of power are even if they used them poorly.

Mike.

A Dub in Glasgo

Repeat after me

We are all for Democracy!
We are all for Democracy!

Erm... Hang on.. only when we like the outcome

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Repeat after me

We are all for Democracy!
We are all for Democracy!

Erm... Hang on.. only when we like the outcome

Yeah that is so true in some cases isnt it...

Hill 16

Earthman you are a disgrace,banning me because you have a different opinion then I have.You are a true beacon of democracy.

Zombrex

Hill 16 wrote:

Earthman you are a disgrace,banning me because you have a different opinion then I have.You are a true beacon of democracy.

Complain by PM mod or posting in Feedback, stop trolling Politics ffs ... :rolleyes:

Hill 16

Hill 16 wrote:

You are a true beacon of democracy.

Ah, you're back.

Before you get banned again for not taking your original ban, let me know when Israel invaded Palestine.

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote:

Ah, you're back.

Before you get banned again for not taking your original ban, let me know when Israel invaded Palestine.

Or when Britian invaded Ireland for that matter ... :v:

Flex

Wicknight wrote:

Or when Britian invaded Ireland for that matter ... :v:

Started around 1172, finished around 1600

Zombrex

Flex wrote:

Started around 1172, finished around 1600

It wasn't an invasion, they were invited

Suff

Invited!!!! man you got issues!
anyway the first Jews started to arrive to Palestine in 1903 from eastern europe. [30,000 jews] and they still arriving every year!

Húrin

Akrasia wrote:

The palestinians have the right to vote for whoever they want. Isn't democracy wonderful. Now where are all those folk with their purple fingers?

In Palestine, presumably. I'm angry anytime fundamentalist nutcases get elected, anywhere, but this has serious consequences. It appears to me that most people who voted for them don't want the fighting to end because under Hamas there will be no peace. They voted for them out of foolish pride.

Suff

Suff wrote:

Invited!!!! man you got issues!
anyway the first Jews started to arrive to Palestine in 1903 from eastern europe. [30,000 jews] and they still arriving every year!

So you're just going to ignore the Jewish Roman wars, the persecution of Jews by the Romans, the remains of Jewish temples in the area and in particular the Temples in Jerusalem, you don't believe Masada exists or that it's not a few thousand years old, the fact that in the 19th century (before your date of 1903 when you allege 'the first Jews started to arrive') there were more Jews than Arabs in Jerusalem, maybe the Dead Sea Scrolls were just some notes jotted down on a copybook too...

Do you really really think Jews started arriving in 1903. You can't just blithely ignore history because it doesn't suit your argument. The Jews were always there, maybe not in the same numbers or with the same power, but they were there before the Arabs conquered Palestine in 638.

Sand

The reason Hamas did so well was'nt because of thier "Death to Israel and her Allies" policy or the love of 7th century Islamic Law it was entirely down the 40 years of corruption and mal-administration under Yassar Arafat and Fata. They got rich while the great unwashed suffered (and not just cos of Israeli policy, Arafat blew more than one oppotunity for improve the lot of 'his' people).

Now suddenly the 'nutters' are in charge and I suspect they are as scared as
anyone. They now have to deliver on the promise of a better tomorrow and its unlikely they have the calibre of men (doubt Hamass have to may women in top positions) to make it happen.

I've a feeling a deal will be done with Fata as they at least know where the levers of power are even if they used them poorly.

I fully agree - I think Ive heard on the news that Hamas have already put out feelers to Fatah to help them form a government. Im not sure how Palestinian opinion will greet that, they voted to get rid of their cronyism and corruption but Hamas need all the help they can get. Arafat may be sainted as the great peacemaker in the West, but he was a terrible, terrible political leader in terms of improving his peoples lot.

I think the EU will need a Fatah cover for Hamas if its to continue funding the Palestinians, so theyll be hoping Fatah is there. If not, it will be excruciatingly embarrassing to be funding a listed terrorist group whilst claiming to fighting terrorism. Chirac has already threatened to nuke any state that supports terrorists who target French interests, which could lead to all sorts of fun and games down the road.

For Israel, it doesnt matter really. The peace proccess has been dead for a long time, and the intifida has been defeated for the most part by the wall, targeted assassinations and the evacuation of vulnerable settlements so theres no rush to deal. The election of Hamas wont impact their plans Id say, though theyll use it to justify them.

mike65

Why is it allways the w@nkers with low sperm counts......?

Mike.

Flex

Wicknight wrote:

It wasn't an invasion, they were invited

Invited to Leinster, by a guy promising to pay them with something he no longer owned (ie. the throne of Leinster). Do you think Ireland was occupied for centuries by Britain?

A Dub in Glasgo

mike65 wrote:

Why is it allways the w@nkers with low sperm counts......?
.

that what?

Post in Politics forum?

Elect a radical group?

Have Mercedes cars?

????????????

mike65

Sorry I was being obtuse. Why is it always posters with a low post count who are so quick to bang on about being oppressed.

Mike.

A Dub in Glasgo

mike65 wrote:

Sorry I was being obtuse. Why is it always posters with a low post count who are so quick to bang on about being oppressed.

Mike.

That means 'Why it is always **** with low post counts that....

Surely that contravenes the 'Never attack a poster. Attack the content of their post.' clause in the charter?

mike65

I was speaking in a general sense, its all over the place these days. Proberly the result of this place being so popular. Newbies tend to take umbridge quickly and dont take the time to acclimatise.

If I get banned I'll take it like a man.

Mike.

mike65

mike65 wrote:

I was speaking in a general sense, its all over the place these days. Proberly the result of this place being so popular. Newbies tend to take umbridge quickly and dont take the time to acclimatise.

If I get banned I'll take it like a man.

Mike.

You are for one week
The baler is permanently banned.
Thread cleaning in progress...

Ping Chow Chi

same old same old, the state of Isreal was help along by jewish terrorists* who indeed ended up in positions of power. seems to me that the pals are just trying the same thing.

Like someone said, whats good for the goose is good for the gander

personaly - I would love to be able to transport both sides to some far of planet, hey maybe one each.

*I mean proper terrorist, of the hotel bombing type, not soldiers etc

Suff

Deleted User wrote:

So you're just going to ignore the Jewish Roman wars, the persecution of Jews by the Romans, the remains of Jewish temples in the area and in particular the Temples in Jerusalem, you don't believe Masada exists or that it's not a few thousand years old, the fact that in the 19th century (before your date of 1903 when you allege 'the first Jews started to arrive') there were more Jews than Arabs in Jerusalem, maybe the Dead Sea Scrolls were just some notes jotted down on a copybook too...

Do you really really think Jews started arriving in 1903. You can't just blithely ignore history because it doesn't suit your argument. The Jews were always there, maybe not in the same numbers or with the same power, but they were there before the Arabs conquered Palestine in 638.

When the Muslims (not arabs!) conquered the Cham region [now Syria,Lebanon,Jordan and palestine] it was populated by arabs and romans! they were from different faiths, there were jews, christians, Ashories and others. Israel is the last colony in the world, bringing jews from all over the world to occupy a land with a claim of faith!!!
so why dont all Christians try to do that knowing that Christ came from there!!! ok the Crusaders tried that, they occupied Palestine for over 110 years until it was freed by Salah El Dein [Saladin]1187.
Israel is only 56 years old and if you really look at the history of that land and anyother country in the world [inc Ireland, Spain, MiddelEast] you would know it wont last!

Palestine will return.

Zombrex

Suff wrote:

Invited!!!! man you got issues!

My "issues" don't have a whole lot of baring on history, despite how important I think I am

Read a history book...

Zombrex

Flex wrote:

Invited to Leinster, by a guy promising to pay them with something he no longer owned (ie. the throne of Leinster). Do you think Ireland was occupied for centuries by Britain?

It depends on how you define "occupied"

And considering people around here seem to have some wacky definitions of "invaded", I will wait this occupided is defined until commenting again lest my "issues" be brought up again :v:

Wibbs

Suff wrote:

When the Muslims (not arabs!) conquered the Cham region [now Syria,Lebanon,Jordan and palestine] it was populated by arabs and romans!

The armies that conquered that region were Arab Muslims.
So where were the Jews? Do they not have a historical claim to the land? From the time of the Pharoahs that land was known as the land of the Jews. It holds their most sacred sites. Can you imagine if Muslims were conquered and expelled from Mecca and Medina and scattered to the wind. Do you not think they would hold those places as their birthright, even 100s of years later?

they were from different faiths, there were jews, christians, Ashories and others. Israel is the last colony in the world, bringing jews from all over the world to occupy a land with a claim of faith!!!

You could say that of many places. You could say that Mohammed occupied Arabia and beyond with a claim of faith. You could say that the Christian crusaders occupied the middle east with a claim of faith.

so why dont all Christians try to do that knowing that Christ came from there!!! ok the Crusaders tried that, they occupied Palestine for over 110 years until it was freed by Salah El Dein [Saladin]1187.

I notice if the Christians or Jews take over it's an occupation, but if it's Muslims it's "freedom". Interesting, you're suggesting the same thing you accuse the Jews of doing.

Israel is only 56 years old and if you really look at the history of that land and anyother country in the world [inc Ireland, Spain, MiddelEast] you would know it wont last!

Huh? Sorry I'm missing your point. Why won't it last? They have an historic claim and have consistently and successfully defended their land against various aggressors since it was formed. They have a modern secular democracy and a growing economy with the full support of both powerful friends and the UN. Don't get me wrong, I have serious issues with how the Israeli government deals with the Palestinians and that should be addressed, but I don't see them being driven into the sea just yet.

Palestine will return.

I doubt it. Not in the form I suspect you're thinking of anyway. In any case how do you propose to do it? Deport all the Jews?

wicknight wrote:

My "issues" don't have a whole lot of baring on history, despite how important I think I am

Suff

Wibbs wrote:

The armies that conquered that region were Arab Muslims.
So where were the Jews? Do they not have a historical claim to the land?
From the time of the Pharoahs that land was known as the land of the Jews.

The jews at the time when the Cham region was conquered by Islam were a minority, the majority were arab Christians. the Jews from the time of the Pharoahs converted into christianity at the time of Christ then into Islam. the remaining arabic Jews still live in Syria, Lebanon and Palestine to this day. they dont support Israel.

my point is the palestine original citizens were MiddleEastern people who were Jews, christians and Muslims those people had to leave their land for foreigners coming from eastren europe and the states.

How could you justify them having a right to that land!!??? it's like me saying my great great great X 10 grandfather liver in Ireland once therfore I have a right to come and kick you out of your land!!

today settellers confiscate Palestinian land from people who have legal documents from the early 1900's when people started to have doc for property staing it's their land, settellers simply hold their Torah and state that this book is their legal document!!!!

That's just not right in any term!

Wibbs wrote:

You could say that Mohammed occupied Arabia and beyond with a claim of faith. You could say that the Christian crusaders occupied the middle east with a claim of faith.

Mohammad (PBUH) was an Arab, the crusaders were forigners which is my point of Israel being a foreign power {eastren europe, USA, Africa}.

Wibbs wrote:

I notice if the Christians or Jews take over it's an occupation, but if it's Muslims it's "freedom". Interesting, you're suggesting the same thing you accuse the Jews of doing.

My term "Freedom" points to when Palestine were an Milti- faith arabic region, then occupied by the crusaders coming from europe!

Wibbs wrote:

They have an historic claim and have consistently and successfully defended their land against various aggressors since it was formed.

Ireland was occupied for hundred of years then you got your freedom in 1922Spain was occupied by the Arabs until 1212.
The Ottoman empire occupied the cham region until 1916, followed by a french mandate we got our independance in 1946.

No matter how long the occupation might last people will free their country sooner or later.

Wibbs wrote:

I don't see them being driven into the sea just yet.

IMO...Back to where they came from!

Wibbs wrote:

I doubt it. Not in the form I suspect you're thinking of anyway. In any case how do you propose to do it? Deport all the Jews?

I dont really know whats the right solution but IMO it wont be a Jewish state!

Wibbs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Historical_roots

Suff wrote:

the Jews from the time of the Pharoahs converted into christianity at the time of Christ then into Islam. the remaining arabic Jews still live in Syria, Lebanon and Palestine to this day. they dont support Israel.

The Jews converted to Christianity and then Islam? What? Eh no they didn't. There were few converts to Christianity from the Jews in palestine at the time of Christ.

my point is the palestine original citizens were MiddleEastern people who were Jews, christians and Muslims those people had to leave their land for foreigners coming from eastren europe and the states.

"Foriegners" whose ancestors had been driven from the land you claim had few Jews in it. Ever wonder why there were so few Jews there by the time of the Ottoman Turks? Did these people just decide to be Jews? If you wanted to be a religion or ethnic group by choice, I don't think Jewish would be your first choice. Not given their history of opression. The Christians thought of them as well poisoners and christ killers and Mohammed has the very rocks and trees calling for their slaughter.

today settellers confiscate Palestinian land from people who have legal documents from the early 1900's when people started to have doc for property staing it's their land, settellers simply hold their Torah and state that this book is their legal document!!!!

That's utter crap obviously. I don't agree with that. Neither do I agree with the stated aim of most of Israels neighbours to drive the Jews into the sea either. It's a p!ss poor strip of desert between the mountains and the sea. Land of milk and honey my ar5e. It doesn't even have any oil. Let them have it FFS.

My term "Freedom" points to when Palestine were an Milti- faith arabic region, then occupied by the crusaders coming from europe!

Arabic seems to equal Muslim to you.

No matter how long the occupation might last people will free their country sooner or later.

The problem is it's not "their" country any more. There are Jews who have been there since the 40's and before. They have earned the right IMO to have a land of their own. They fought and died for it backed by a historical claim.

IMO...Back to where they came from!

Oh oh, "Palestine uber alles" by the sound of it.

I dont really know whats the right solution but IMO it wont be a Jewish state!

So it'll be fine if it's an Islamic state? Not too many of those are success stories, now are they.

Suff

Suff wrote:

the first Jews started to arrive to Palestine in 1903

Suff wrote:

When the Muslims (not arabs!) conquered the Cham region [now Syria,Lebanon,Jordan and palestine] it was populated by arabs and romans! they were from different faiths, there were jews, christians, Ashories and others.

Suff, it's bad enough that you rewrite history. But at least don't contradict yourself.

Simple yes or no answer, were there Jews in the area before 1903? If you say yes, then your first post above is wrong, if you say no then your second one is.

Wibbs

The scary part is how many people believe this, especially in the Arab nations. The amount that I've met that believe in the protocols of Zion* as well beggars belief.






*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion