Are our generation totally *&"^ing irresponsible as parents?

hepcat

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So what are we disagreeing about? [/QUOTE]

AngryBadger we are disagreeing about whether this generation is "totally *&^ing irresponsible as parents". I don't think so!

lacuna

Parents are ulimately there to guide their children but you can't just impose all your values on them. Just because you think something doesn't mean they should be forced to agree with your opinion. Also, the more you push something on adolescents, the more they resent you for trying to influence them so much. In their eyes they are entitled to their own views etc and forcing anything on them is unwelcome.

brown*eyed*girl

Hepcat and the dilemmas are almost daily at the moment with all the raging hormones and my protective streak but we can only do our best.

GOod post lacuna.

Also a phrase that struck me reading these posts is "every generation blames the one before".

AngryBadger

lacuna wrote:

Parents are ulimately there to guide their children but you can't just impose all your values on them. Just because you think something doesn't mean they should be forced to agree with your opinion. Also, the more you push something on adolescents, the more they resent you for trying to influence them so much. In their eyes they are entitled to their own views etc and forcing anything on them is unwelcome.

But does this mean they should be given free rein?

hepcat wrote:

AngryBadger we are disagreeing about whether this generation is "totally *&^ing irresponsible as parents". I don't think so!

Ah, ok, i think we got sidetracked to some degree. fair enough, but i disagree, i think too many irish parents are irresponsible.

pepper

Sleepy wrote:

I know my mother always insisted on phoning any friend's parents if we were staying with them that night, up until we were around 16 anyway...

I think parenting standards are dropping in general, but that is just a generalisation, I know some fantastic parents that are around the same age as or younger than myself too. Most of these had great parents themselves though. It's a self-perpetuating cycle, the offspring of bad parents don't stand a chance.

One thing though, aidan_dunne, I don't think there are actually more freaks, weirdos, paedophiles etc in the world today than there were a few generations ago. Back then, they simply seemed to prey on their families or join the church and prey on orphans and alter-boys. Just judging by the amount of people I know that have suffered abuse as a child, I'd be surprised if there were more than a handful of posters whose families hadn't been affected by some form of abuse or another... it's a sad state of affairs but evolution just doesn't seem to be ridding us of these wastes of DNA.

my parents were the same- until i was 18(not kiddn) i had to "check in" every hour- sometimes every half an hour if they were in a bad mood- i HATED them for it at the time but now i know they were only looking out for me

brown*eyed*girl

AngryBadger wrote:

But does this mean they should be given free rein?



Ah, ok, i think we got sidetracked to some degree. fair enough, but i disagree, i think too many irish parents are irresponsible.

No they shouldn't get free rein but suffocating them with rules and regulations isn't going to benefit them either. Its to try and strike a balance that needs to be aimed for.

I disagree with you that too many are irresponsible. Yes there are some irresponsible ones but my experience i.e. being a Mam myself and talking and dealing with my neighbours, daughter's friends and school mates parents the majority of them are very honest decent caring parents trying their very best. Just a recent example is at my daughter's meetings for their secondary school. The amount of parents asking questions and 100% interested in how the school is run and wanting to be involved was very good. Yes there were a few parents who yawned through the meeting and couln't wait to get out of there but maybe its the area you live in or something. Now I'm not meaning that as an insult but seems we both have very different experience with the parenting skills we've encountered.

AngryBadger

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

I disagree with you that too many are irresponsible... maybe its the area you live in or something. Now I'm not meaning that as an insult but seems we both have very different experience with the parenting skills we're encountered.

Absolutely, not a word of a lie there. And I'm not attempting to say that "mine word is gospel, woe and betide unto those who disgaree". But my experience has been very different,and it isn't limited to people in my area, or any other aspect of my demographic. I've seen kids atitudes in schools all over the country, and I've seen children parading around in mini-skirts, smoking, drinking, out in clubs until all hours. These kids parents should have been gelded in my opinion.

I'm not saying this is all kids, or all parents. From what I see, it is a lot of them, and it's not as simple as some kids smoke, or drink, or know about sex, there are so many deviant behavious in the kids I see these days i don't even know where to begin.

I think this is totally wrong. And I think regardless of the pressure involved, or the quality of whatever government/social institutions also exist no-one is asking why some of these parents aren't being held accountable.

AngryBadger I can't wait until you have a rebellious teenager you can't control. Parents are not perfect, it is really hard to get the balance right between being too strict and being too liberal. I think liberal rarely works, but then my parents were strict and it didn't work. After the age of about 10 or 11, the influence from peers and media is much greater than from the parents. There isn't much they can do about that. In the case of my brother, he is just stubborn and does whatever he feels like, they have tried punishing him but he takes no notice. My mam is ready to throw him out on the street, seeing as he's 18, but would good would that do? People would say she was mean and heartless then, you can't win. If you think it's all the parents problem you're extremely naive.

I know a lot of 15 year old girls from good families with lovely parents who are trolling around clubs every weekend and getting drunk. It's very very hard to stop a determined teenager.

hepcat

AngryBadger wrote:

Absolutely, not a word of a lie there. And I'm not attempting to say that "mine word is gospel, woe and betide unto those who disgaree". But my experience has been very different,and it isn't limited to people in my area, or any other aspect of my demographic. I've seen kids atitudes in schools all over the country, and I've seen children parading around in mini-skirts, smoking, drinking, out in clubs until all hours. These kids parents should have been gelded in my opinion.

I'm not saying this is all kids, or all parents. From what I see, it is a lot of them, and it's not as simple as some kids smoke, or drink, or know about sex, there are so many deviant behavious in the kids I see these days i don't even know where to begin.

I think this is totally wrong. And I think regardless of the pressure involved, or the quality of whatever government/social institutions also exist no-one is asking why some of these parents aren't being held accountable.

Trying to hold parents accountable for the actions of their children is a difficult area. Again, where I do not agree that most irish parents are totally irresponsible, I would be interested to see what would happen if the parents of joyriders were made do community service / pay a fine / attend a course (or all 3!) They have tried to tackle this issue in the UK, without much success apparently, ad now they are turning to ASBO's. TBH i do not know if these will succeed either.

The original example however was that of the teenager who was raped, having hitched to a disco and gotten a bus back. It is just not fair to say that this was due to irresponsibility on her parents part, or that they should necessarily be held accountable. And again there are other factors which make teenagers behave they way they do - regardless of their upbringing.

When I posted about the training classes and license, I was referring to this post(which was made just before mine):

For example a couple in my locale are often in trouble for neglecting their kids. At one point the kids were left wandering around outside a pub on their own, unfed/ unwashed etc. while the parents were passed out on the ground from drink.

However difficult parents have it, this is not acceptable.

On the whole issue of children doing what they will, I agreed that it is a little too easy to blame any one thing, and I don't blame the parents. I only blame parents who are completely irresponsible etc.
A lot of people often seem to say "well children don't come with an instruction manual". Would it not be good if there were classes on this kind of thing? And people who already are parents can speak about their experiences and stuff that did and didn't work for them, etc?
Seriously, I mean this only in the interests of help, not condemnation.

As for the media, tbh the odd time I flick on mtv, a lot of it is just horrible. Kids these days - and for some years - grow up too fast and know about this kind of thing too fast. I just don't think it's right.
And if it does happen, maybe people should talk to their kids about it. However peer pressure is a scary thing and is far too effective =/

AngryBadger

Troy Embarrassed Swag wrote:

If you think it's all the parents problem you're extremely naive.I know a lot of 15 year old girls from good families with lovely parents who are trolling around clubs every weekend and getting drunk. It's very very hard to stop a determined teenager.

*sigh*

Maybe I'm not stating this clearly enough. I have a problem witht eh attitude that is prevailing at the moment whereby everyone instantly jumps on schoolos, the media, and scoiety, and no-one asks where are the parents in this.

I'm not comenting on your specific case.

I'm not commenting on any specific case.

And I don't see how parents, adults, with some 30/40 odd years under their belt can't control an errrent teenager. From my experience teaching kids I tell them what goes, and what doesn't, and they don't cross me. Maybe you're right, maybe I'll have kids, do my best and have them go haywire. i seriously doubt it, but maybe, and if it happens I promise to come back onto boards and apologise for having an opinion you disagree with, but that doesn't change the fact my current perspective.

Also, before anyone jumps all over me for comparing teaching to parenting, I'm not, I'm just observing, and qualifying my own experiences.

AngryBadger

hepcat wrote:

The original example however was that of the teenager who was raped, having hitched to a disco and gotten a bus back. It is just not fair to say that this was due to irresponsibility on her parents part, or that they should necessarily be held accountable.

Agreed, but at no point was I saying/implying this, and I've made that point several times.

hepcat

AngryBadger wrote:

Agreed, but at no point was I saying/implying this, and I've made that point several times.

Well, you started with "are our generation of parents totally irresponsible" and the went on to point this out as an example.

I think what some people here, including me, are trying to say is that it is just not as easy as saying "I blame the parents" - especially when you are talking about teenagers growing up in 2006.

There is NO way you can compare teaching to parenting, so you're right there. I've taught teenagers as well, the same ones who are going wild at weekends. There's a big difference between telling them what goes in class and telling them they can't go out etc. My brother was really respectful and polite at school, and came home and yelled and cursed at my parents. A lot of teenagers don't give their parents the same respect they give to other adults.

Some kids are simply troubled, or have mental problems. Their upbringing makes no difference. Some kids react really badly to things like divorce, some have an awful time at school with learning difficulties, have been abused, etc. It doesn't make their parents awful, non caring devils.

I understand what you're saying about people blaming the government and the media instead of the parents, but I think the lax, apathetic parents you speak of are in the minority. I'm 21 and I've talked to my brother loads of times about his behavior and he won't listen. He is convinced he is right and he knows best, and this is the problem. There isn't much you can do with people like that other than hope they come around.

brown*eyed*girl

OK I’ve been thinking about Angry Badger and here’s some scenarios for you:

Fast forward 17 years and you have a lovely teenager daughter called Chloe. Now Chloe is the apple of Daddy Badger’s eye and Mammy Badger of course. She’s in second year in school and very good at home and always uses manners and does what she’s told. But what Mammy and Daddy badger don’t know is she is the complete opposite when they are not around. She shows off and smokes and even steals other girls’ lunch money. She don’t get caught because she smokes behind the school shed at lunch time and the girls she steals off of are too scared of her to tell on her. This can be typical of a lot of teenagers in the world. Parents cannot monitor them all day every day. Also Chloe wants to go to the cinema with her two “lovely friends” so they get dropped by Daddy Badger and picked up by one of her lovely friends parents. Oh but what goes on in the cinema is a different story. First of all they start throwing popcorn and disrupt lots of people with their cheering and swearing (some things typical of rebelling teens). Then god forbid Chloe snogs the head of a fella and perhaps worse. Now unless its normal for a parent to sit in the back row whilst their 15 year old daughter and her mates watch a film how can you monitor them all the time. Its not possible. You’ll have to work, they have to go to school and they WILL want a social life - not meaning pubs or clubs but simply going into town shopping with their mates, going to cinema, for pizza. So perhaps some of the teens you've encountered are street devils and house angels which can be very common. You see I know just how sneaky teenagers can be and being fueled by peer pressure it can be explosive and not to mention the hormones. You'll only ever really know when you're a parent yourself.

Oh this is only a tongue in cheek "what if" situation to let you see that it is in fact quite impossible to have 24 monitoring for your teens unless of course you follow them around 24-7 which would mean not working and going to school with them etc.

AngryBadger

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

Mammy Badger of course.

lol

I'm not saying that there aren't some things parents can't control. I'm saying that some parents use this as an excuse for what is just bad parenting.

In the general reckoning, I don't see how a parent cannot notice when their child has more income, has clothes they didn't buy for them, is suddenly moody, unhappy, or any of a hundred other tings.

Further to which, while a lot of people are jumping on the ,"oh sometimes it's just hard to get it right" bandwagon, I'd like to ask how come some parents get it so right?

Is it not at least coenceivable that they are doing something correcltly, which other parents are not doing? Whether that's down to attention, or discipline, or whatever I don't know, but it is something people should be thinking about.

mike65

Anyone watching Corrie at the moment? It touches on some of this stuff with
the elder daughter of Sally and her goth boyfreind across the street.

Mike.

AngryBadger

hepcat wrote:

as an example.

yes, as a example.

hepcat

AngryBadger wrote:

yes, as a example.

Well if you were using that case as an example of irresponsible parneting do you not think there is an implication in there somewhere???

brown*eyed*girl

AngryBadger wrote:

lol

I'm not saying that there aren't some things parents can't control. I'm saying that some parents use this as an excuse for what is just bad parenting.

In the general reckoning, I don't see how a parent cannot notice when their child has more income, has clothes they didn't buy for them, is suddenly moody, unhappy, or any of a hundred other tings.

Further to which, while a lot of people are jumping on the ,"oh sometimes it's just hard to get it right" bandwagon, I'd like to ask how come some parents get it so right?

Is it not at least coenceivable that they are doing something correcltly, which other parents are not doing? Whether that's down to attention, or discipline, or whatever I don't know, but it is something people should be thinking about.

Yes but you're saying most parents today i.e. this generation are irresponsible. I'm 30 and I remember doing lots of things that were wrong that my parents didn't know about because I was being sly. Lots of girls in my class were the same. We all coped on as we got older but most teens go through a rebelling stage. I still think its not the better parent who practically locks them up and has loads of rules they need to obey. I think its the one who spends time talking and trying to understand their kids. Again I go back to the strike a healthy medium phase which is what is best. But come on no matter how close you are or how good a relationship you have with your kids they aren't going to tell you everything.

About the parents who's kids turn out "good" or whatever you'd like to call it. Well my Nanny had 9 children and they are all so different. One of them is an alcoholic. Thank God most of them are successful now. But they all got the same rearing and some were tearaways as kids or teens and now the model adult or vice versa. It again is just waaaaay to easy to generalise on teens behaviour and their parents parenting skills. It depends on the parent, child, times we live in, etc. etc.

Mike65 have been watching that storyline a bit but hate Sally Webster's moany voice and often have to switch it off. Well its a tough decision to make. I'm going to have to cross that bridge with my daughter gets to the serious boyf age. I would never humiliate my daughter like that though and drag her to the doctor's surgery.

AngryBadger

hepcat wrote:

Well if you were using that case as an example of irresponsible parneting do you not think there is an implication in there somewhere???

I think that this incident did involve bad parenting, I don't see how anyone can dispute that, but it was intended as an example only, not to vilify these parents or any others.

AngryBadger

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

Yes but you're saying most parents today i.e. this generation are irresponsible...most teens go through a rebelling stage...I still think its not the better parent who practically locks them up and has loads of rules they need to obey...I think its the one who spends time talking and trying to understand their kids...But come on no matter how close you are or how good a relationship you have with your kids they aren't going to tell you everything.

I think when all is said and done we just have different views on how good/bad/indifferent some parents are these days.

Perhaps I'm coming off a little hot here, and certainly I could have titled this thread with a little more clarity.

I agree with what you're saying, the ultimately the best parent is the one who tries to understand their kids, and sure there are certain things your' kids probably won't tell you.

But I'm sticking to my guns on the idea that most people aren't even thinking about this. There have been any number of news pieces, articles, debates and so on about the government this, the media that, and drugs the other. But I've never heard anyone saying, "look, yes all those things are factors, but in some of these cases the parents are just crap".

Further to which, while a lot of people are jumping on the ,"oh sometimes it's just hard to get it right" bandwagon, I'd like to ask how come some parents get it so right?

Because it depends on the CHILD for God's sake! There's a thing called PERSONALITY and it's different for every child/teenager. Maybe some parents 'get it so right' because their children are naturally easygoing and well behaved? If I had decided to be a rebel and a nuisance, there wouldn't have been much my parents could do about it. Nearly every family I know has one 'rebel', or 'bad apple' although I hate that term. With your theory, all brothers and sisters in a family would act the same, all well behaved or all badly behaved, because of how they were brought up. It just isn't that simple. My parents used to congratulate themselves on being great parents, comparing us to other kids and then my brother turned into a complete waster.
If a certain family has kids who are all lovely and polite and perfect, yes, they are good parents, but very likely also just lucky. Obviously there are bad parents, and all the kids turn out awful, but you can't generalise.

hepcat

AngryBadger wrote:

I think that this incident did involve bad parenting, I don't see how anyone can dispute that, but it was intended as an example only, not to vilify these parents or any others.

Why do you think this incident involved bad parenting? of course anyone can dispute this comment. And so you are now saying that this is an example of bad parenting? Or not? What?

brown*eyed*girl

Troy Embarrassed Swag wrote:

Because it depends on the CHILD for God's sake! There's a thing called PERSONALITY and it's different for every child/teenager. Maybe some parents 'get it so right' because their children are naturally easygoing and well behaved? If I had decided to be a rebel and a nuisance, there wouldn't have been much my parents could do about it. Nearly every family I know has one 'rebel', or 'bad apple' although I hate that term. With your theory, all brothers and sisters in a family would act the same, all well behaved or all badly behaved, because of how they were brought up. It just isn't that simple. My parents used to congratulate themselves on being great parents, comparing us to other kids and then my brother turned into a complete waster.
If a certain family has kids who are all lovely and polite and perfect, yes, they are good parents, but very likely also just lucky. Obviously there are bad parents, and all the kids turn out awful, but you can't generalise.

I agree, personality has an awful lot to do with it too. Despite the fact I got pregnant as a teenager I'm a very successful, well behaved adult;) . My Mother is always saying she don't know how she was so lucky to have me as a daughter etc. But she was a great Mother and still is. I think the teen years aren't necessarily how the kids turn out when they grow up a bit. Sometimes they need to get things out of their system. Whats really scary is the adults who never grow up and still go around like stroppy teenagers and getting p*ssed etc. etc.

Angry Badger I don't think our teens are getting worse or the parents are getting more irresponsible. I think you are perhaps seeing teens from the grown-ups point of view. If you were perhaps a teen today you would see it differently. What were you like as a teen yourself. Did you drink or do any rebellious stuff at all?

AngryBadger

hepcat wrote:

Why do you think this incident involved bad parenting? of course anyone can dispute this comment. And so you are now saying that this is an example of bad parenting? Or not? What?

If your daughter at 14, is hitching to parties out in tramore, and then getting back as late as 1am, and you have no knowledge of this, or you condone, then yes, you are a bad parent. The girl in one of the cases I mentioned was raped under exactly these circumstances. If her parents had knwon where she was, why didn't they at least meet her off the bus? Why didn't one of them collect her? What the hell was she doing at a party in tramore in the first place??? I fail to see how this is unclear to you.

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

I think you are perhaps seeing teens from the grown-ups point of view...What were you like as a teen yourself. Did you drink or do any rebellious stuff at all?

I wasnt an especially rebellious kid. i Didn't stat drinking until 16/17, I was going to clubs aroudn the same time, I would have had all the usual difficulties kids have at that age, girls, school, ad so on.

But i also remember seeing a lot of kids who were doing the same stuff, and watching them be miserable, and piss their lives away. people doing drugs, peple just not wrking at all in any area. people who were miserable, and lonely, and unhappy. Some of these people i still see from time to time, and they're just as lost now as they were then. these weren't people from particular demographics, some had problems at home, some didn't.

I'm sure everybody here can cite similar stories, and maybe you could argue I take too hard a line on this kind of thing. But I don't see that people need to be so unhappy, or make such stupid mistakes, or get raped coming home from a party they shouldn't have been at to begin with. And I think in a lot of cases this starts at home, with the parents.

That's all I'm saying.

hepcat

AngryBadger wrote:

If your daughter at 14, is hitching to parties out in tramore, and then getting back as late as 1am, and you have no knowledge of this, or you condone, then yes, you are a bad parent. The girl in one of the cases I mentioned was raped under exactly these circumstances. If her parents had knwon where she was, why didn't they at least meet her off the bus? Why didn't one of them collect her? What the hell was she doing at a party in tramore in the first place??? I fail to see how this is unclear to you.



Well the operative word is if, really isn't it? How about if the parents took every reasonalbe precaution and despit all this the girl managed to sneak out? What then?

AngryBadger

hepcat wrote:

Well the operative word is if, really isn't it? How about if the parents took every reasonalbe precaution and despit all this the girl managed to sneak out? What then?

If the parents had taken every precaution and she had still managed to sneak out, how did they fail to notice?

In this instance, I don't see how they could have missed the target with such aplomb. If she snuck out, surely they would have noticed. If they noticed, why did they not go looking for her?

But more to the point. I didn't use that case to talk about them. I'm talking about what is symptomatic of a bad attitude to the responsibility of rearing children. In my view, based on the information available, irresponsible parenting was a factor in this incident.

Based on what we do know, a 14-year old girl hitched her way to a party with a friend, stayed there for a few hours, and got a bus home arriving in waterford at 12:45am. I can't understand how anyone accepts that it was possible for the parents not to be aware of the problem here. The girl was with a friend, were her parents also incognito?

I just can't accept what you're saying because what I'm hearing is, "sure **** happens, live with it", which to me is unacceptable.

As I am now blue in the face saying, I realise there are things we canonot control utterly. But I feel there is insufficient awareness or consideration of the issues with children. And since you keep referring back to what served merely as an example to illustrate a point, yes, i feel the parents of this girl were at fault.

I really don't see what is unclear about that.