Why is the WEST so afraid of Islam?

Suff

Why is the WEST so afraid of Islam ?

I don't know. Who says it is?

Suff

A number of things..

-The none-stop propaganda aginst Islam and what it stands for.
-Suggesting/imposing the Western way of life onto Islamic countries.
-if the word "Islamic" is used the first thing that comes to mind [in the west] is terrorism/strict/abuse of women.

jimbling

Suff wrote:

A number of things..

-The none-stop propaganda aginst Islam and what it stands for.
-Suggesting/imposing the Western way of life onto Islamic countries.
-if the word "Islamic" is used the first thing that comes to mind [in the west] is terrorism/strict/abuse of women.

part of western culture is to fear everything we do not understand....... and we understand very little.

Wibbs

Suff wrote:

-The none-stop propaganda aginst Islam and what it stands for.

Like what? Any examples?

-Suggesting/imposing the Western way of life onto Islamic countries.

Can't argue with you there on the political front and as someone pointed out in the politics forum, when they do impose democracy the first thing the locals do is vote in someone the west won't like. That said that debate is better off in the politics forum tbh.

If you take the view that they are imposing a western set of morals and way of life then that's different, I suppose. In that case people will either reject it or embrace parts of it.

-if the word "Islamic" is used the first thing that comes to mind [in the west] is terrorism/strict/abuse of women.

The terrorism link is pretty much the same as it was for the Irish when all that nonsense was going on up the north. The perception, rightly or wrongly that the religion itself may give some support to the whole "jihad" thing doesn't help either. AFAIK no other religion even has a word to compare(I know it means more than one thing, though). The amount of terrorists that were connected directly with Islamic schools or mosques doesn't sit well either.

IMHO, Islam would be stricter than most westerners would be comfortable with. The amount of daily prayers for a start. The particulars of washing and eating and lack of alcohol wouldn't help. The idea that a Muslim could be executed just because he or she decides to reject the faith wouldn't help either. Smacks of barbarism and lack of choice. The all encompassing nature of Islam might be an issue too. There are countries ruled by Islamic principles in law and daily life. While many countries in the west started out as "christian" countries, most if not all are vastly more secularised than in the Muslim world.

The sexism thing would freak a lot of people out. It suggests that women have no choice but to cover up or be considered whores by men. It suggests that a woman is inferior. It suggests that men are driven by urges they can't control. It allows men to beat or reject their wives for not sleeping with them among other reasons. Now while it could be argued that Islam gave women more rights initially, it could also be argued that things have moved on from the 7th century.

You must remember Suff, that in Ireland at least, we had one church in too high a position of power here for far too long. I would say that most wouldn't relish the idea of replacing one xenophobic, homophobic, sexist hellfire spouting bunch with another. When Muslims say that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, it would be equally easy to say that a la carte agnosticism is is growing even faster. Look at the countries that are Islamic. The more Islamic they are, the more economically, technological and socially backward they become. The more secular, the more prosperous in all the above. While there are political reasons for that, the religion, at least in the minds of many seems to also play a part.

jimbling wrote:

part of western culture is to fear everything we do not understand....... and we understand very little.

Huh? How are we more "afraid" of things we don't understand in the west? How can you compare that to any religious belief? Every faith has sought at various times to limit human understanding, so how does your sentence make any sense at all. We understand very little? What? In what ways, science, technology etc? Sorry I honestly don't see what kind of point you're making. It's not the hoary old chestnut that the poor decadent west has lost it's way in some weird hippy view of the world?

AARRRGH

Suff wrote:

Why is the WEST so afraid of Islam ?

It's not. Only a couple of crazed Christian fundamentalists are - unfortunately they happen to be working for the US Government.

Wibbs

I dunno dublindude, it's not just the Christian nutbags. There would be some fear from the secular too as any religion would be considered a threat.

AARRRGH

Concerned, maybe. But "so afraid"...?

Personally, I'm equally afraid of anyone who believes in organised religion!!

Hagar

I don't think they're afraid of Islam, I think they're afraid of the Arabs who just happen to be largely Islamic.

Wibbs

I take your point Hagar, but much of the terrorist and radical Islamic junk is not only found among Arabs. What about the attacks in the far east, the problems in Pakistan, Sudan, Chechnya, even the shoe bomber eejit from the UK. They're not Arabs, but they are Muslims.

Hagar

I'll risk a banning for this one.

My experience of Arabs, having worked in the Middle-East, is that the standard of education of [strike]Joe[/strike] Ali Punter is abyssimal. The average poor Arab/Muslim was so ignorant as to defy belief. It would not be hard for unscrupulous leaders, religious or otherwise, to get these poor dumb bastards to die for them.

There are without doubt many well educated Arab/Muslim people, I'm referring here to the great unwashed multitudes.

AARRRGH

I don't consider people in a warzone (Israel/Iraq/Chechnya) terrorists. If they had tanks, they'd use tanks.

So how many "real" Arab/Muslim terrorists are there? Not many.

Again, (not trying to go OT), if we start talking about Arab terrorists, we have to talk about the nice, white, Christian terrorists (American etc.) It's pretty clear who are the experts!

Wibbs

dublindude wrote:

I don't consider people in a warzone (Israel/Iraq/Chechnya) terrorists. If they had tanks, they'd use tanks.

You'll notice I didn't call them terrorists.

So how many "real" Arab/Muslim terrorists are there? Not many.

OK freedom fighters then fighting against the yoke of western tyranny, or something.

Again, (not trying to go OT), if we start talking about Arab terrorists, we have to talk about the nice, white, Christian terrorists (American etc.) It's pretty clear who are the experts!

I get it, you don't like the yanks. Politics TBH, like the rest of your post.

HelterSkelter

Maybe because Islam outlaws many of the things that are big money makers for people in the west, i.e. Alcohol & Gambling

Suff

Wibbs wrote:

If you take the view that they are imposing a western set of morals and way of life then that's different, I suppose. In that case people will either reject it or embrace parts of it.

I would agree with some points here,

its clear that the west doesnt have a strong religious base these days so any religious society would seem odd.

however the western way of life come acorss as LOST in terms of faith as many people are renouncing their faith to be free of any law or religious obligations.

people might be christians but thats only by name and not by actions.

it doesnt give any positive idea of a healthy,family based/ concerned society:

*Gambeling leads to domestic financial probems.
*Sex trade/industry does nothing to women rights.
*Alcohol leads to domestic abuse, health and financial probems and today all dietitians urge people to either stop or reduce their drinking in order to have a healthy body.
*Sex before marriage, leads to sexually transmitted diseases, AIDS.
*adultery leads to families breakup, crimes of passion and the above.
*Drugs, some EU states approve of some viraity of drugs, leads to all sorts of stuff.
*Crime rate are higher in western countries then in the MiddleEast due to the above.

so how do you honestly think that the western lifestyle suits the MiddleEast!

ONE AND ONLY GOOD THING IN THE WEST IS:

The freedom of speach! [democracy] and thats why large number of people across the globe seek to live in it to have a safe life. many run away from persecution.
Our mine problem in the ME is our Goverments, they are so courrpted its unreal. they dont set laws based on religion or democracy, no!
it all based on what suits them best, keep them in power and the crazy thing that the wast have provided support to these goverments.
I totally positive that when and if we ever get democracy in the ME [not using the Bush's programs] life will get alot better for all of us.



The 2nd best thing is Music!
Let's Get Rocked

Hagar

Suff wrote:

...if we ever get democracy in the ME [not using the Bush's programs] life will get alot better for all of us...

The democratic choice made by the Palestinian people has not been welcomed by the West. You must choose the right flavour of democracy or else...:mad:

Suff

Hagar wrote:

The democratic choice made by the Palestinian people has not been welcomed by the West. You must choose the right flavour of democracy or else...:mad:

very good "...Flavour" I would'nt be surprised if he used it in one of his Hilarious speaches

Wibbs

Suff wrote:

its clear that the west doesnt have a strong religious base these days so any religious society would seem odd.

I for one am glad it doesn't and for me a religious society goes well beyond odd. Frankly, an Islamic ruled society would make me very very nervous.

however the western way of life come acorss as LOST in terms of faith as many people are renouncing their faith to be free of any law or religious obligations.

Maybe we've just grown up. We realise that you don't need a God in the sky to forge a just an equal society. I notice you seem to think that law and religious obligations are linked. Bit of a problem if your religion doesn't agree with someone elses religion on a point of law. Then we're back to you thinking you,re right because your God says so. Bad basis for an equal and just society.

people might be christians but thats only by name and not by actions.

When they were the latter, you could argue that's why we had the dark ages.

it doesnt give any positive idea of a healthy,family based/ concerned society:

Depends on your definitions.

*Gambeling leads to domestic financial probems.

I suspect poverty in general is a bigger problem

*Sex trade/industry does nothing to women rights.

Agreed and neither does dressing them from head to foot and relegating them to a lesser role in society/faith. Anyway women in the sex trade make up a tiny tiny percentage of the worlds women. Women are not just sluts or saints you know. They can do other stuff. I have the facility to see the difference. Most of the Abrahamic religions seem to have a problem with that.

*Alcohol leads to domestic abuse, health and financial probems and today all dietitians urge people to either stop or reduce their drinking in order to have a healthy body.

Agreed in part. It can also be good too. Why ban it outright?

*Sex before marriage, leads to sexually transmitted diseases, AIDS.

It can also lead to stoning in some Islamic societies and AIDS is easily reduced by practising safe sex.

*adultery leads to families breakup, crimes of passion and the above.

and can also lead to stoning in some Islamic societies. Great. When was the last time the west stoned someone? I'm not being flippant, that is the penalty for adultery in Islam, though in Iran and places like that they settle for hanging.

*Crime rate are higher in western countries then in the MiddleEast due to the above.

Reported crime rate. Look at the large scale accusations of glorified slavery and rape in SA. Your principle seems to be to ban everything thats bad for us, based on an ancient text. That's a tad too dictatorial for my tastes.

The freedom of speach! [democracy] and thats why large number of people across the globe seek to live in it to have a safe life. many run away from persecution.

That kind of thing only tends to spring from secular non religious governments. Islam while claiming people of the book are ok also states that there should be no other religion but Islam. That doesn't sit well with freedom of speech or freedom of religion.

That's the big problem. The west for all it's faults is at least capable of change. Islamic/religious based societies look for inspiration to a ancient book which by it's own words is for all time and cannot be changed. To even suggest that it's imperfect for the modern world is a heresy itself.

The 2nd best thing is Music!
Let's Get Rocked

I've heard some of the nuttier Imams reckon music should be banned. That said, I've never met a Muslim that gave that guff a second thought. Most of the ones I know are metal heads for some weird reason. Obviously I have to know the freaky ones.:D

jimbling

Wibbs wrote:

It's not the hoary old chestnut that the poor decadent west has lost it's way in some weird hippy view of the world?

lol... you caught me!

Wibbs

jimbling wrote:

lol... you caught me!

You see Suff, it's not Islam or the west we should worry about. It's the hippys.:D

Dogma does not mesh well with the west's cherished concepts of pluralism & liberal democracy.

Suff

could you explain please

Wibbs

Religious faith based government doesn't tend to evolve to changing times. They consider themselves right for all time(and everyone else wrong). Whereas secular governments do as they take account of more things than ancient texts that people disagree over. Also they allow for dessenting voices to be heard, no matter how unpalatable(not always, but that's the aim). For example, under an Islamic government could I disagree with the teachings of Islam, or criticise the Prophet, regardless whether I was right or wrong? Unlikely. Many things in Islam would be considered very harsh and not liberal at all.

As I've said before why should we in the west go for the idea of replacing one xenophobic, homophobic, sexist hellfire spouting religion(Christianity) with another. We've tried that before. Europe became stronger and safer the less religious it became.

digitalninja

The west isn't afraid, we just enjoy freedom of speech.

Wibbs

The whole "freedom of speech" thing has been done to death elsewhere tbh and doesn't really address the OT(well slightly but...). While I'm all for freedom of speech(which exists nowhere, it's just viewpoint and question of degree), I don't think that's the reason the west is "afraid" of Islam. I would say that the west may be "afraid" of any all encompassing faith/doctrine, not just Islam. Very right wing Christianity would likely be equally unwelcome to many.

ambro25

Why is the West 'so' afraid of Islam?

I do not believe that the West is afraid of Islam. For example, there are countless Mosques in the West, and to the best of my knowledge, Muslims are free to practice their Religion anywhere in Europe or the US.

I do believe, however-

reference being made for instance to terrorism allegedly justified by scriptures (any Muslim please correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe that the Coran dictates/justifies Jihad in quite the same terms as BLaden, Hamas and others have been doing in recent years - and the same can be said of the Bible for white supremacists),

-that the West is justifiably afraid of (i) extremists and (ii) importantly, how little 'moderate' Muslims appear to be doing to curb those extremists (be it in terms of collaboration with authorities, statements for dissociating themselves from extremists' activities, etc, etc.)

Correct me again if I'm wrong, but with reference to the whole drawings controversy (I know, I know, another Forum etc.), and putting aside considerations of freedom of speech:
(i) why such a furore now for something that dates back to September 2005? (i.e. whose agenda?)
(ii) doesn't the Coran advocates tolerance in equal measures to faith? (e.g. associating here Muslim 'tolerance' to 'freedom of speech', so to speak)
(iii) are people calling BLaden to avenge the affront not themselves guilty of idolatry (the very concept upon which the ban of representations of the prophet Mohammet is based?)?

So, of course the West takes a collective intake of breath when faced with such a over-reaction to such an infinitely small affair... For that's all it is, at the end of the day: 12 drawings in an obscure, small Danish newspaper which probably next to no-one has ever heard of outside Denmark. It's obscurantism at its worst, that the Inquisition of 15th century Europe would be proud of... Not to mention very dark shades of gray to be applied to water recipients usually found in a kitchen, when comparing them...:mad:

Hobbes

Look I didn't lock the previous thread so people could start up here about the cartoons again. I'll be watching the thread.

Suff

I know this is off topic but I MUST share this with you guys...

http://republicanvoices.org/saudi_plan.html

it must be a joke !

Fitzblado

being from the west i think that any religion that has elements that preach hate against non-muslims is to be frowned upon.I also think that islams very idea(submission to gods will) has allready happened in the west with the christian churches.People do not like being told what to do when it comes to morals.Muslims need to know that there is no room for there religion in a secular west,it just will not fit with the culture.

Hobbes

Fitzblado wrote:

Muslims need to know that there is no room for there religion in a secular west,it just will not fit with the culture.

Muslims have been in Europe for generations. wtf are you on about?

Suff please dont intentionally post offtopic.

Suff

Hobbes wrote:

Suff please dont intentionally post offtopic.

Sorry,...I think it's within the topic, the states are worried of some conspiracy of mass convertions.