Why is the WEST so afraid of Islam?

ambro25

Hobbes wrote:

Look I didn't lock the previous thread so people could start up here about the cartoons again. I'll be watching the thread.

Point noted, but you can't really expect a reply to the question of the OP not at least alluding to it, as it is so symptomatic/representative of why the West is (wrongly) perceived to be 'afraid' of Islam: the West is not really afraid of Islam as a religion, but of Islam as a way of life (both of which are pretty much dissociated in Occidental countries, i.e. those mostly of Chrisitan roots).

But since Islam, to Muslims and as I understand it (in a non-partisan way) is both a religion and a way of life, a culture clash is of course inescapable, since it is to be expected that any religion will bestow its own fundamentalist/extremist elements.

I don't see any practical reconciliation, lest Western-based Muslims opt en-masse for 'integration' (not religion) and all the adjustments to their way-of-life that this requires. The common denominator is always the same: no 'normal' (moderate, adjusted, etc.) Westerner would begrudge a Muslim the right to be exercise his or her Religion, but the (rightly? wrongly?) perceived aim of Muslims to impose Muslim culture and societal precepts onto Western culture and society is where the problem is...

Without wanting to fall in the populist, habitual retort of "if they don't like it here, they can...etc.", European Muslims (not all, but those who opt to live by the Coran, as opposed to just pray and experience faith through it) have no choice and no business requiring centuries-old Western democracies to conform their legal (-societal) systems to Coranic law, in which they -as a representative percentage of the general European population- have litterally only just arrived.

philologos

I believe that it's reports in the media that help portray a bad image of Islam. We never hear about the peaceful Muslims in the world today.

Hobbes

ambro25 wrote:

Point noted, but you can't really expect a reply to the question of the OP not at least alluding to it,

Yes I can. As you mentioned it is a symptom. That means there is much else to discuss. As far as I am concerned discussing the cartoon just slowing spirals into insults and "get over it" type comments. There are threads elsewhere to discuss that.

larryone

I'd be of the opinion that fear stems from a lack of understanding. We fear what we dont understand. If the West were to strive more towards an understanding of Islam then there would be far less fear of it. People see little pieces of Islamic culture, often via the media (what a wonderful source it is) and tend to fill in the blanks with similar sort of crap that the media have fed them. Hence a large lack of understanding.
I like forums like this, as it gives a chance for muslims and non-muslims to discuss stuff and try to correct alot of the misinformation on both sides.
Personally in the last 2 years I have gotten to know a number of muslims (from Iraq, Bosnia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nigeria) quite well and have learned enough to spur me on to reading up more on it, and start reading the Quran. I think if more people in the west did similarly there would be alot more understanding and alot less fear.

kwinabeeste

Suff wrote:

Why is the WEST so afraid of Islam ?

I don't think the west is afraid of Islam, but it is afraid of the extremists that Islam produces, in a similar way I am afraid of the Christian extremists in the US because of their whole creationist beliefs and the extent that they will go to, to change the education system in the US. That aside there are large number of Muslims in US, Germany, UK, France etc and there are relatively few extremists there....i think (except Abu Hamza correct me if i'm wrong).

I live in a part of Dublin with a large Muslim community and have no problems with them, go to their shops etc. But in some countries in the ME and Asia, there are extremists that are "brainwashing" children from an early age to hate the west and that the Koran is the only law. (i think there was some school in Dublin that was found to be teaching the Koran most of the day?) The creationists in the US are doin this aswell and there are broad similarities between the Bible belt in the US and the ME (conservatism, religion, abstinence etc) and yet these are the very 2 communities that are fuelling the war on each other.

Wibbs

larryone wrote:

I'd be of the opinion that fear stems from a lack of understanding. We fear what we dont understand. If the West were to strive more towards an understanding of Islam then there would be far less fear of it.

Very true and vice versa.

I like forums like this, as it gives a chance for muslims and non-muslims to discuss stuff and try to correct alot of the misinformation on both sides.

Agreed

Personally in the last 2 years I have gotten to know a number of muslims (from Iraq, Bosnia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nigeria) quite well and have learned enough to spur me on to reading up more on it, and start reading the Quran. I think if more people in the west did similarly there would be alot more understanding and alot less fear.

Or you could be like me who understood more, but got more concerned the more I read. Then again I can be cantankerous for the sake of it sometimes.

I think the dialogue is what's important as you say. After all if Christians or Jews started to follow the dafter stuff in their religious texts we would be in trouble too. Luckily for the most part, they don't and take the peaceful stuff on board. I don't know whether that's due to secularisation or what. In some qaurters of the Islamic world that kind of thinking needs to take root though.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote:

I don't think that's the reason the west is "afraid" of Islam. I would say that the west may be "afraid" of any all encompassing faith/doctrine, not just Islam. Very right wing Christianity would likely be equally unwelcome to many.

Zing

is_that_so

The West is made of many things. We come in all sorts of hues. Most of the difficulty that exists vis a vis Islam is that the perception that it is vengeful.
When "God is great" is used to justify any action we are reminded of what the Western Church used to do.

For me personally there is not enough active engagement. There does not appear to be any attempt by people who are either part of Islam or implicitly understand it to help the "West" understand why Islam is a loving religion, why so many people embrace it not just as a belief but as a way of life, what it does and does not allow.

IMHO unfortunately Islam has been hijacked in the same way that some elements in the West justify their own belief and actions in the same way, through Christianity.

pretty*monster

"Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam or Marxism) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and the hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward." - Edward Abbey

At the moment Islam is looking like the strongest "fantastic doctrine" on the menu. That fact alone is enough to make it pretty scary to any card carrying secularist who'd rather that god be kept out of the public sphere.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Good thread Suff, a lot of Muslims I've met think we're afraid of Islam but don't realise we're just afraid of religion.

I'm an Athiest, and I believe that I'm perfectly entitled to do whatever I want as long as I'm not hurting anyone else.

But Islam doesn't allow me this, and it's generally accepted Muslims in power want everyone in the world to follow Islam.

Religion is very appealing to people scared of death, and most people I know are fearing the reaper far too much.

Islam makes much more sense & is much less hypocritical than Christianity, it's not as sexist as people make out. Therefore it's logically a better chice if you're willing to follow a book written thousands of years ago based on stories passed through generations of people you don't know.

So it scares me to think people might follow it someday - then we end up in a country with a regime stricter than the Catholic Church(and we've had bad experiences with these guys)

If Muslims were happy with keeping religion & government seperate, and didn't impact & judge the people they share a country with who are going to hell for not sticking to Allah's rules I would not be scared of Islam.

Wibbs

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Good thread Suff, a lot of Muslims I've met think we're afraid of Islam but don't realise we're just afraid of religion.

Exactly.

[Jackass]

I've got to be honest with you lads, and excuse my ignorance, but the only reason i read this forum is because i consider myself very open minded to the world and i like to learn about different cultures and ways of life, no matter how different it is to my own.

My opinion on Islam is that it's quite an "extreme" religion that has a lot of rules and control over peoples lives who practice it...I may be wrong, but that what it appears to me, and if so, great! It's not my way of life, but if that's what you're into, who am I to judge?

But what worries/frightens me is the very obvious divide and wedge that has been put between the middle east and the west...and how Bush won an election by playing the "christian" card and "Religious War" and talks about implimenting "Democracy" to the east, and how allies are being formed and wars going on, Iran is next in line for the occupation of the "axis of evil" and last time I checked, nobody made Uncle sam police of the world!

Religion is a very very bad thing, and has been the sole cause or has played a leading role in pretty much every major conflict recorded in history. All religion has brought to the world is pain, war, missery, murder and destruction...so I don't fear islam as such, I fear what's gone on till now and what lies ahead...there's alot of tention in the air, and if a whole religious community can take a couple of cartoons so seriously, I'll hate to see what you're going to do when bush and the lads start talking of a "religious war"!!

I just fear religion in general, I just think it would be ironic if I was right, and there is no god and no after life or anything like this, and people devoted their life to worshiping something that never even existed and died for it...

John Lennon said it best:

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Damn Hippies!!

larryone

Removing religion is not the answer. Teaching tolerance is.

Freddie59

digitalninja wrote:

The west isn't afraid, we just enjoy freedom of speech.

Well said. You'll get some loopers here who will argue that we don't have free speech.:rolleyes: The fact that www.boards.ie exists and we can speak here proves we have.:D

Hobbes

Freddie59 wrote:

Well said. You'll get some loopers here who will argue that we don't have free speech.:rolleyes: The fact that www.boards.ie exists and we can speak here proves we have.:D

and with that and the posts I deleted Freddie takes a 1 month holiday.

How many times do I have to repeat myself. A person may have misgivings about this (or any religon) however it is not open for attack on this forum.

This is the last warning on this thread. I get similar posts the thread is locked.

[edit] actually after following the link posted Freddie is out of here for good.

Wibbs

larryone wrote:

Removing religion is not the answer. Teaching tolerance is.

True. The nature of any faith is that of exclusivity, which makes the tolerance bit all the harder. Unusually, Islam is one of the few that mentions other major religions at all. The tolerance towards them is variable, depending on the passage you read though. How the secular is treated would be more vague, as most at that time would have belonged to some faith or other.

PS John Lennon also sang "imagine no possessions" while writing said song in his Surrey mansion surrounded by Picassos. Damn Hippies is right.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Because I don't want someone else beating the crap out of my because I do something that their religion disagrees with or considers sinful.

II'll decide what's sinful for myself, thank you very much, not the Koran. Or the Bible or anything else with a moral highground for that matter.

However, I am not scared of Islam. I've been to Iran and Pakistan and found nothing but warmth and hospitality. I am scared of fundamentalism, though, whatever insecure doctrine it claims to represent.

Hagar

Tonight, Sunday 19th Mar RTE1 10:20pm "Who's afraid of Islam?".
It might be interesting. At least it will be OT, I hope.

larryone

I watched it. It was good. Taped it too...

Donangel

the whole notion of "who's afraid of islam" ,or "why is the west afraid of islam?" is totally ridiculous . islam didnt appear yesterday, its been a faith held by many people around the world for ages.

Now suddenly it started to be a subject that anyone can gives an opinion about, and none of these opinions are really built on knowledge . people watch documentaries on tv or reports in newspapers and suddenly they are experts on islam.

the path to knowledge is built on research and study, you cant have preconcepts, that you hold in ur mind as facts while u look for an answer. first clear your mind of any preconception and then go and ask the poeple who can really teach u about islam.

for example, if i want to learn about christianity u will not find me going to a mosque and asking a muslim Imam to tell me about christianity, i go to a church and meet a priest to explain to me and advice me in what kind of books that will teach me about his faith, same goes to judaism or any other faith.

thats been said , peopl who mention that riligion as an idea scare them, well i've been in ireland for a while now ,about 9yrs, and i have a modest knowledge of the history of ireland,at least the last couple of centuries. i can safely said that most people who r scared by the idea of riligion grow up with christian faith, christian faith is very much close to islam , but the problem is that christianity is more of an emotion than a practical religion. Thats why i have not encountered a religious character who is not secular and believe that faith is in church, and should not be mixed up with laws or politics.

you see islam is faith,politics, and life style ,u cant pick something u dont like in islam and say "look they cut off people hands, or women have to wear head cloth" and so far. Islam is really like a human body ,if i give u a human hands and feet it will disgust you and scare the h*ll out of u ,but if i present to u the whole body as one u will find it beautiful and perfect. So what am trying to say is look at as one subject dont try to look for the weak points in it until u understand it as a whole concept, then you will have the right to criticise and give opinion that might help the faith to grow and imporve.

just one last thought, what brings the islam as a faith up in the spotlight this last century is simply politics and control of natrual resources. i mean every single person can see that. after the first world war and the discovery of oil in the middle east, everything has changed. Palastine has been promised to the zionist 'not by god ,this time was by britain' , and actually muslim leaders didnt object to that at the time. so when strong jewish lobby in america and russia convinced both countries to interfer and fight the nazi, it was time to give them what britain promised.

well since then the rest is as they say history, now after half a century of oppression on palastinien ,nothing is being done thier and the world is still fighting for the oil.

but hopefully the oil will finish one day then believe u me no one will want to even look at the middle east, and islam wont be a faith of terror anymore.

Hagar

Donangel wrote:

you see islam is faith,politics, and life style

This is how a lot of westerners view Islam and it's a facet of Islam that is often denied by its adherants in debates such as this. Islam like all religions feels it is duty bound to "save" everyone. In effect this means its goal is to spread itself throughout the whole world. Therefore because of this whole "faith, politics and life-style" package it appears that Islam's aim is to convert the whole world to a new ME society ruled by Islamic law.
That is the problem the west has right there. The west tries, maybe not altogether sucessfully, to divorce church and state but it seems Islam aspires to the exact opposite. This must be seen as a threat to non-Islamics, why should they sit back and allow the imposition of Islamic religious laws on themselves?

Donangel wrote:

just one last thought, what brings the islam as a faith up in the spotlight this last century is simply politics and control of natrual resources.

I don't think that is entirely true. I think it is down to technology making information available on a world wide basis.

On a side note when I worked in the ME I wanted to put Atheist on my visa application. I was warned not to do so and was advised to put Christian down instead. It seems there is some tolerance for people of a different faith but none for people of no faith. The fact that my religion or lack of was asked for was a bit worrying anyway.

Donangel

Hagar wrote:

Therefore because of this whole "faith, politics and life-style" package it appears that Islam's aim is to convert the whole world to a new ME society ruled by Islam.

well first i would like to thank you for your post hagar, secondly i have no idea from where you got this idea that Islam is trying to convert the whole world or even trying to impose our well into others!!!
nothing could be farther from the truth , well what islam is asking from us is to introduce our belief to others wether they choose to follow it or not thats entirly is up to them. We have no moral obligation whatsoever to make sure that every single human being on earth has to be a muslim. actually islam is a choice , and a choice you have to take it by yourself and under no obligation or stress from anyone, hence the word ISLAM ,and if as you said u have worked in the middle east at least u should have learned the meaning of the word Islam is wellingly submission. Also you said that you have worked in the middle east , then u should know that no middle eastern country has islam law system,except kingdom of saudia arabia, we have french penalsystem and laws no one in our region practicing shar'ia law.

then u said that because there is a better media coverage now thats why suddenly islam is under spotlight, well mate islamic empire at its hayday reached france at one side and almost rome at the other, i mean islam was in the heart of europe and by then people knew what islam was about, but today u turn on the tv , radio , open a newspaper and its all meesages that you are in danger because of islam , which is totally untrue .

you are not in more or less danger than 900yrs ago ,because islam was not threatening to you then and is not threat to anyone now.

Oh yeah and about the passport thing, i dont understand why u cant riht athiest ,and its not true we respect christian, hindus ,sikh ,jews , and athiest as matter of fact we respect anyone that doesn't mean us harm.
Well maybe some countries has diffrenet policies on imigration and such but nothing relate to religion.
And if anyone well try and pinpoint that jews are not welcome in muslim countries let me say it first , they are RIGHT but not because they are jews ,it because today anything jewish is related politically to israel and not to the faith of judaism , the proof is if u r irish/french/polish/american etc jew u can go to any middle eastern country u wish to visit . but if you hold an israeli passport you are not ,apart from egypt ,jordan,and morroco, if am not mistaken.

if any of my information is incorrect please feel free to tell me ,
thanks

Hagar

Please forgive any inaccuracies in my last post based on generalisations or misconceptions. That's the trouble I suppose, we just don't know enough about each other to bridge the gap.

For what it is worth it was Libya I worked in just before and after the US bombing in '85. The bureaucracy I encountered there may not be truly representative of other Isalmic nations.

Donangel

Dear hagar,

Ofourse I forgive u although there is nothing to forgive , you have been to a country that's been ruled by a person who believed in too many idealogy for one life time. First kadafi wanted to be arab nationalistic under the influence of Naser of egypt. After the death of Naser he was lost and tried to maintain his position but he didn't find support from others,so he decided to be a revolutionist and start to have relations with the IRA and Castro and such organizations and individuals. Then he changed his mind again and started to call himself african -which is technically right because libya is in the african continent-.

So my point is a government of a country or governments of specfifc region don't necessarelly reflect the faith of its people. For example the italian government or president doesn not reflect catholisim -I will not think that christians like tagliatelle or the pope has ties with the mafia - and so on.

So I don't blame u for ur experience and no one can but muslim countries are no different than any others. iraq for example they hd a mix of communisim ,arabic nationalism and secular ideaology .and I mean the government not the people.

Anyway I advice who want to learn more about the sitiuation to try to read more and research from unbiased material and preferabally material that was writtien before the 50s.

Wibbs

Donangel wrote:

the whole notion of "who's afraid of islam" ,or "why is the west afraid of islam?" is totally ridiculous . islam didnt appear yesterday, its been a faith held by many people around the world for ages.

true enough, although the "fear" of Islam has been around in the west for quite a while for various reasons. All the way back to Islamic spain etc.

but the problem is that christianity is more of an emotion than a practical religion. Thats why i have not encountered a religious character who is not secular and believe that faith is in church, and should not be mixed up with laws or politics.

And that's a bad thing how? It allows a secular system of government that allows for change and evolves(in an ideal world in any case). It can allow for respect for all beliefs or none.

you see islam is faith,politics, and life style

That's where the fear lies. Faith and lifestyle is all very well, but when it gets into politics any religion is dangerous. The second one group believe they have a God given right to be right for all mankind and for all time you end up sailing dangerous waters. The two views on this are very much opposed, hence the fear with Islam.

just one last thought, what brings the islam as a faith up in the spotlight this last century is simply politics and control of natrual resources.

That's a hell of a lot of it for sure(though away to the politics forum with that debate, if we know what's good for us, or Hobbes sword will be swift )

well mate islamic empire at its hayday reached france at one side and almost rome at the other, i mean islam was in the heart of europe and by then people knew what islam was about, but today u turn on the tv , radio , open a newspaper and its all meesages that you are in danger because of islam , which is totally untrue

True and it was a better place to be relatively then the Christian controlled areas, but that was then and this is now and most Europeans would not want the caliphate running things.

you are not in more or less danger than 900yrs ago ,because islam was not threatening to you then and is not threat to anyone now.

Well if you asked the non muslims in those states 900yrs ago, they didn't fall into a Muslim empire by chance. It spread like all empires by war(with a backing from the word of God, some would argue).

So my point is a government of a country or governments of specfifc region don't necessarelly reflect the faith of its people. For example the italian government or president doesn not reflect catholisim

Again true, but did you not say that Islam has a large portion of politics inherent to the faith? In fact as you say far more than Christianity. Surely then a state like Saudi Arabia and it's politics, is far more reflective of Islam than the secular Italy of today is of Catholicism?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Donangel wrote:

you see islam is faith,politics, and life style ,u cant pick something u dont like in islam and say "look they cut off people hands, or women have to wear head cloth" and so far. Islam is really like a human body ,if i give u a human hands and feet it will disgust you and scare the h*ll out of u ,but if i present to u the whole body as one u will find it beautiful and perfect. So what am trying to say is look at as one subject dont try to look for the weak points in it until u understand it as a whole concept,

You can not honestly mean that, would you apply the same logic to a factory who brought a thousand jobs to a town & created wealth but also destroyed the nature around the town with emissions etc

NOt one person's hand is worth a faith based on a book written thousands of years ago by people who for the mostpart will never be proven to have existed. That's just not fair. So no way will I consider your "beauty & perfection" until you ensure your methods improve

Hobbes

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

That's just not fair. So no way will I consider your "beauty & perfection" until you ensure your methods improve

They do change though and too many people look at the middle east as the norm for Muslims. For example a woman can't touch a mans hair but there are many female barbers who muslims. In the UK they have sharia law, but it is never allowed to exceed the laws of the land. It works quite well and there is none of this loosing hands, beheading stuff you hear about.

pork99

I believe that what we have to fear is not Islam as a religion but Islam as a political ideology. If Islam is practised as another personal faith alonside other religions like Presbyterianism, Judaism or Hinduism I don't think anyone has a problem.

I fear the totalitarian anti-democratic aspirations of political Islam. Apart from extremist Republicanism it's the greatest threat to the liberties we enjoy in this part of the world.

Osama Bin Laden's worst nightmare makes the case better than I can - scroll down to the Manifesto of 12.

Hobbes

and with that Pork99 takes a holiday and next one post in the similar vein gets the thread locked + banned as well. As always take it to the rules thread you have an issue.

larryone

I've seen her interviewed before. She makes alot of sense.