We live on a Private Road?

eleMental

I was speaking to a neighbour last night who had been on to the Gardai about speeding cars on the Charlesland road. She said that she was told that apparantly the whole of the new road (from the roundabout before the rugby club up as far as the old Kicoole Road roundabout) is infact a private road. She was told that its not owned/maintained by the County Council, its still owned by the original developers of Charlesland, Zapi Developments. Therefore, it does not fall under the remit of the National Roads Authority and that as a result, the Gardai have no jurisdiction to enforce the traffic laws there e.g. speed limits etc and that were any type of accident to occur, that as such it occurs on a "private road". (Not sure of the implications this has on insurance??) It seems that any road maintenance or "law enforcement" would need to be carried out by the development company.

I was quite surprised to hear this and got onto Hooke McDonald to see if it was true, but theyve advised me to contact my solicitor as the conditions of the road would be stipulated in my contract.

I was just wondering if anyone else was aware of this being the case or knows when the road is due to be handed over to the County Countil? It would certainly explain why the traffic lights dont work and why Dublin Bus have not started a regular service.

Marcais

eleMental wrote:

I was speaking to a neighbour last night who had been on to the Gardai about speeding cars on the Charlesland road. She said that she was told that apparantly the whole of the new road (from the roundabout before the rugby club up as far as the old Kicoole Road roundabout) is infact a private road. She was told that its not owned/maintained by the County Council, its still owned by the original developers of Charlesland, Zapi Developments. Therefore, it does not fall under the remit of the National Roads Authority and that as a result, the Gardai have no jurisdiction to enforce the traffic laws there e.g. speed limits etc and that were any type of accident to occur, that as such it occurs on a "private road". (Not sure of the implications this has on insurance??) It seems that any road maintenance or "law enforcement" would need to be carried out by the development company.

I was quite surprised to hear this and got onto Hooke McDonald to see if it was true, but theyve advised me to contact my solicitor as the conditions of the road would be stipulated in my contract.

I was just wondering if anyone else was aware of this being the case or knows when the road is due to be handed over to the County Countil? It would certainly explain why the traffic lights dont work and why Dublin Bus have not started a regular service.

They were speeding around in Superquinn car park one night, Gardai wouldn't come out. My neighbour contaced Liz McManus and she wrote a letter to the Gardai Superintendent. Try contacting a councillor and see what they say.

Hooke & McDonald aren't the sharpest tools in the shed!

Hagar

Are you sure about the "private road" thing?
The roads in the Phoenix Park are private roads not public roads and the Gardai exercise full authority there. I think the appropriate phrase is "public place" which would cover your private road. The car park issue is a bit different I think, it's more trespass which is a civil not criminal matter.

testicle

Hagar wrote:

The roads in the Phoenix Park are private roads not public roads and the Gardai exercise full authority there.

Who owns the Phoenix Park so?

eleMental

No, she said the Gardai said that all of the road was outside of their remit and as such, they werent allowed to enforce any speed limit or any other law of the road. Apparantly it was recommended to the developers by the Gardai that the road not be opened to the public because of this, but they went ahead anyway. I checked up on that Dev Company and it looks like its the same development company running the marina upgrade, owned by Sean Dunne and Sean Mulryan.

ccfcexile

testicle wrote:

Who owns the Phoenix Park so?

the goverment obviously as its a national park

loyatemu

sounds very dubious to me - there are plenty of housing estates around the country that haven't been taken in charge by the council (Heathervue in Greystones is one of them) but the law still applies to them and the Gardai do enforce the law there (well, as much as they do anywhere, which is not much).

IT Loser

eleMental wrote:

I was speaking to a neighbour last night who had been on to the Gardai about speeding cars on the Charlesland road. She said that she was told that apparantly the whole of the new road (from the roundabout before the rugby club up as far as the old Kicoole Road roundabout) is infact a private road. She was told that its not owned/maintained by the County Council, its still owned by the original developers of Charlesland, Zapi Developments. Therefore, it does not fall under the remit of the National Roads Authority and that as a result, the Gardai have no jurisdiction to enforce the traffic laws there e.g. speed limits etc and that were any type of accident to occur, that as such it occurs on a "private road". (Not sure of the implications this has on insurance??) It seems that any road maintenance or "law enforcement" would need to be carried out by the development company.

I was quite surprised to hear this and got onto Hooke McDonald to see if it was true, but theyve advised me to contact my solicitor as the conditions of the road would be stipulated in my contract.

I was just wondering if anyone else was aware of this being the case or knows when the road is due to be handed over to the County Countil? It would certainly explain why the traffic lights dont work and why Dublin Bus have not started a regular service.

If it is a private road I'd keep that info to myself if I were you. As a so called "Newtowner" [Someone from NewtownMountKennedy, a Village with 8 centuries of History behind it, unlike some] I have been accosted by the pig ignorant Constabulary of Greystonings on 3 separate occasions- on one occassion I had displayed enough temerity to wrap a scarf around my skull to keep it warm while waiting for a running partner to meet me outside SuperValu on the Main Street in early January. They said they "had got a fone call about a chap with a balaclava". I ask you.... And I have a BL from UCD!!

The entire Greystones scene is administered, insofar as I can see, by the remnants of/ replacements for the old Orange Order, and their handpicked Gardai. Accordingly when I hear that the Guards won't come out to Charlesland I'm am not taken aback- but instead would point 3 things out to you:

1. In the latest edition of the Bray People, there is a story about how one Lee McCabe was arrested and subsequently fined €800+ for committing, allegedly, an array of MINOR traffic offences in the road in question. [The offences were not insurance related, being confined to matters of taxation, the crossing of a solid white line and failure to NCT his car] As this case went to Court, it would appear that the Gardai do in fact have the right to exercise their powers- something which hitherto they denied having. In the alternative, the arrest, detention and subsequent prosecution of McCabe were all illegal and liable to be overturned, as the Guards, arresting him as they did on [private property] have acted ultra vires [outside their powers] In my humbe opinion, the Guards, for all their failings, are not readily given to make mistakes of this order.

2. The Guards, as a general rule, will take the path of least resistance. Given that the preponderance of Greystonions business premises are on or just off Main Street, you will find that the Guards will not stray too far from this area. Posh noveau-riche appartment dwellers in some hideous development "just 10 minutes from the sea" are unlikely to be of interest to a force which regards the more heavily populated [and more troublesome] North end of the town as being an area better deserving [i.e. requiring more of] their time. In short, the entire saga is reminiscent of the debacle over the issue of mobile fone use while driving- if you remember the Guards said they weren't prepared to make any arrests until someone made it perfectly clear whether the relevant legislation had or hadn't been enacted. As it happened, the law against use of fones was on the books, but hadn't been enacted, and the Guards were correct [though thoroghly lazy] in their refusal to attract liability.

3. Finally, the absence of any sign warning motorists that they enter the premises at their own risk [as is commonplace where the public are likely to wander onto or make use of private property] would indicate that the property in question is not de jure under the control of the developers, but by that same token [thanks to incompletion, as yet, of some outstanding legal formality] is not de facto under the control of the relevant public authorities. Even the most inauspicious of farmers fields and the most insignificant of restaurants and pubs [most of which are in Delgany and Greystones!!] are bedecked with signs outlining the refusal of the owner [occupier] to accept liability for loss suffered by the entrant/visitor.


In short- no authorithy in its right mind would grant permission for a project that would essentially result in the gentrification of an area to the gross disadvantage of a surrounding population who had borne the brunt of the disturbance during the said development. If it has escaped you, building 2 mile stretches of fine road and telling non-residents they can't use it is a fast track towards gentrification. The situation at Charlesland is clearly one of the Guards refusing [when it suits them] to exercise their statutory powers on the flimsy grounds that they are unsure of their status when on that property. They know full well, as Court proceedings have illustrated, that they are allowed onto that property. As for Dublin Bus, well when did their inability or refusal to provide a service prove anything. The Southern Cross is not one of their bus routes.....serviced exclusively as it is by Maguires. And the So'thrn Cross is definitely public, albeit not as "exclusive" [literally and methaphorically] as Charlesland.

IT Loser

ccfcexile wrote:

the goverment obviously as its a national park

Thanks for playing, come again soon.;)


The people of Ireland own the Park. The Govt doesn't own it, they [and their associated departments] make decisions as to their upkeep and development but thats it. A decision made by any Govt to sell, alter, modify etc any piece of public land{s} can be contested by any member{s} of the Public before the relevant authorities, who can include, among others, the OPW, An Bord Pleanala, and the other sundry County Councils. Any member of the public may seek judical review of the decision of any departmental body in this regard by submitting their application for a hearing before the relevant Court.

For what its worth, the Guards do have residual rights of entry to any premises, public or private, inside or outside, where it has come to their attention that a crime is in process. One of the main considerations they do have where private property is concerned are the Constitutional Right of the accused to the inviolable right of his domicile. Plainly, nobody dragged from his car following a bout of speeding can successfully invoke this argument in Court, but the Cops procrastinate regardless.

Eoin

IT Loser wrote:

Posh noveau-riche appartment dwellers in some hideous development "just 10 minutes from the sea"

Is that Charlesland you are referring to?

In other news, I was coming out of Superquinn on Friday evening at about 9, and two Guards had stopped some boy racer in his souped up motor for tearing up and down the road, so it looks like they are taking action. One of them seemed rightly pìssed off towards the driver for his reckless driving.

IT Loser

No mate, any high-rise that the murderous construction industry* builds usually gets this kind of treatment from me. In point of fact C'sland looks oK to mee. [*25 men a year- Justice Murphy called them "recidivist killers"]

Trust me, as an Apprentice Solicitor, the Police take their time and do as they please. Most of the boy-racers have cars of 1.6l or less engine capacity. The noise is from an extra large tailpipe. Most of these kids are all bark and no bite- easy pickings for Guards who want a snack to stand up in Court and get on their rep sheet. The Guards are not infallible and are well aware that the preponderance of reckless driving is performed by people driving so-called "normal cars" [if you call a Burnaby mom driving a 5 litre engined SUV "normal" that is]

testicle

ccfcexile wrote:

the goverment obviously as its a national park

My point exactly, hence it is not a private road.

Hagar

Th Phoenix Park is governed by Bye-Laws http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI6Y1926.html which can restrict or prohibit traffic at any time tim on any or all of its roads and as such the roads are not "public" in the normal sense of the word.