Traffic Lights for different lanes...

murphaph

TempestSabre wrote:

We can agree to disagree. I can only coment on my own experience. For me that is when I started driving a few decades ago there were non of these half assed filter lights. Having lived in the UK myself for a few years (but many moons ago) I was used to seeing filter lights with a red light above each green light. I've pretty much driven the same route through town for over a decade, and on that route, and in those areas the sequence has changed.

Normal behaviour is that the general light comes on first, with a red on the filter. The green filter comes on, and then the red light comes on to stop all traffic. Thats not what I'm seeing lately.

Your in D.15. So I'll give a classic example. At coolmine cross. Only in the past couple of years changed so that coming from clonsilla you have a green filter turning towards the trainstation, then the filter goes off, no red appears and the normal green stays on. So this means that traffic facing you coming from blanch is suddenly free go, so traffic that was turning right now has to give way, when a second before it had a green filter.

In other places you have another combination of this. Take the road out of Laurel Lodge. It goes to a general green, everyone moves, then it goes to a red for all traffic so all traffic stops. Then goes green again for all traffic but this time with the filter on aswell. Why theres a red in the middle of the sequence is bizarre. It has no purpose at all. Because the other traffic in the other direction doesn't move off red at all.

Maybe on your route these kinda sequences make some sort of sense. But where I see them they don't.

My rational about simplying the junctions is because you can visibly see people being confused at these junctions. Its a bit like the blind 3 into 2 lane merges you see around town. Down the quays is a classic example. 3 lanes of traffic heading out of town, and as they go over the junctions a lane magically disappear, or are 4ft misaligned. Fine if you know to expect this, but if you don't its a hell of a surprise. Its quite common to see buses, taxis and trucks, and cars all side swiping each other as they jostle for a lane.

Of course you'd be mad to do this on a roundabout but the N3/M50 roundabout has exactly this.

I never stated, nor would I, that every junction is perfect. There are junctions with poor sequences, but you're position here was one of 'general simplification of junctions' because people haven't the wits to negotiate 'complex' junctions safely. I disagree and I also think that poor traffic light installations should be rectified (not simplified for the simple). The lights Coolmine are actually clever though because under the old system, you had a general green for traffic needing to turn right towards the station and there is a delay between the oncoming traffic getting a red light and right turning traffic getting a green filter. putting the green filter at the 'start' of the sequence eliminates the delay. I don't see your problem with increasing flow through a junction in this way? It's also like this on the Ongar distributor/Shelerin Road junction (depending on traffic conditions as the lights do not have a simple sequence but rely heavily on induction loop detectors to detect traffic conditions approaching the junction). A good reason for not having a red above a filter right is because to turn right you must approach with a lot more caution than simply driving straight on, and consequently you will be looking for oncoming traffic. If you were to put up a red light (which are designed to be much brighter than the green one for obvious reasons) then motorists going straight on tend to slow down for th bright red light that doesn;'t apply to them as it is much more prominent than the duller green light they are supposed to be looking at. In short-people see red and they stop, people see nothing and they (should) proceed with a great deal more caution.

murphaph

Dizzyblabla wrote:

Hang on a second... I'm an L driver.... I know the sequence of the lights, a fully licenced driver went straight into me, not only not looking at the lights, but not looking at the road straight in front of her?? If I hadn't started to break as I saw her coming towards me, she would have gone straight through my driver door and caused alot more damage. How is it that you're still blaming learner drivers? So it was my fault that she wasn't looking where she was going and went straight into me, because I'm on a provisional licence? don't be daft.

Where exactly did I even mention you or your accident in this thread? Calm down, relax and realise that my comments are general ones, ie, in general we should not allow unqualified drivers out on the road alone. Is there something wrong with that notion or do you think the driving test and driver training are pointless?

Dizzyblabla

murphaph wrote:

Where exactly did I even mention you or your accident in this thread? Calm down, relax and realise that my comments are general ones, ie, in general we should not allow unqualified drivers out on the road alone. Is there something wrong with that notion or do you think the driving test and driver training are pointless?

no, I don't think they are pointless at all, but there are alot of qualified drivers out there that seem to cause alot more accidents than those of us who are 'not allowed' to drive on our own. If the testing system was more organised I would (hopefully!) have had my full licence months ago, as would alot of other learner drivers that are deemed unworthy of driving on their own.

murphaph

Dizzyblabla wrote:

no, I don't think they are pointless at all, but there are alot of qualified drivers out there that seem to cause alot more accidents than those of us who are 'not allowed' to drive on our own. If the testing system was more organised I would (hopefully!) have had my full licence months ago, as would alot of other learner drivers that are deemed unworthy of driving on their own.

So basically you totally agree with me! I stated that L drivers should not drive in their own until deemed competent and that driver training should be improved and road traffic legislation enforced. Your entire point about generally letting l drivers drive alone is based upon you personally feeling competent to drive and the fact that it currently takes too long to get a test. I agree that it takes too long to get a test and that driving standards are poor, ergo we should improve them and that will include religiously enforcing road traffic legislation, including the disqualification of unqualified drivers caught driving alone.

TempestSabre

Where did I call for a general simplication of junctions? I just said theres a lot of bad ones that are confusing for the lowest common denominator of driver skill. Also I would consider these junctions with half assed filters, bad junctions. I don't have a problem with increasing throughput, but whats the point of creating complex junctions that require a level of competency (for all drivers) that doesn't exist in this country. Its not like you are going to raise the skill level of the drivers overnight, or the driving test or the enforcement levels. I dunno about you but I've had a lot of near misses at junctions over the year where some fool ignores, or doesn't understand the road markings/junction.

My other point is that these changes are by design. By and large there was an older set of lights, or sequence which was safer. It seems to suggest that for the sake of a few bad crashes even deaths, its worth having more efficient junctions. By making these changes without consider the dysmal standard of drivings, and the reality that its not going to change any times soon, your accepting the increased risk of accidents, even deaths.

TempestSabre

Dizzyblabla wrote:

no, I don't think they are pointless at all, but there are alot of qualified drivers out there that seem to cause alot more accidents than those of us who are 'not allowed' to drive on our own. If the testing system was more organised I would (hopefully!) have had my full licence months ago, as would alot of other learner drivers that are deemed unworthy of driving on their own.

That completely ignores that theres are many many times more fully licenced (lets not say qualified) drivers than those on provisional. Thats why they have more accidents statistically. A more interesting statistic would be the % of accidents with provisionals as a % of the total of provisional vs the same of fully licenced drivers. You'd also have to break that down by age too. Do it for the 18-23yrs - 60-70yrs etc.

You seem to be making this about provisional drivers when it isn't. No one would have known you were a provisional until you mentioned it.

Dizzyblabla

TempestSabre wrote:

You seem to be making this about provisional drivers when it isn't. No one would have known you were a provisional until you mentioned it.

It was brought up that Learner Drivers shouldn't be on the road, I just pointed out that I was a learner driver but did not cause the accident.

Seth Brundle

murphaph wrote:

Some dumbass fcukers are so ignorant of filters that I have been beeped at for not turing left when presented with illuminated straight ahead and left green arrows and an extinguished amber and something beneath (I wonder is that the right arrow assholes?!) Fcukin Muppets.

erm, is there a typo in there [should left be right]?

Dizzyblabla wrote:

Hang on a second... I'm an L driver....
<snip>

Dizzyblabla wrote:

It was brought up that Learner Drivers shouldn't be on the road, I just pointed out that I was a learner driver but did not cause the accident.

Just out of curiosity are you on a 1st or 3rd provisional? If so did you have a qualified driver with you? Im not saying you are to blame but if you didn't have the qualified driver with you then you shouldn't have been there and the incident wouldn't have occured.

colm_mcm

kbannon wrote:

if you didn't have the qualified driver with you then you shouldn't have been there and the incident wouldn't have occured.

if the woman who caused the crash can't understand traffic lights, then an accident was imminent. if it wasn't him it would've been someone else,

tinkerbell

kbannon wrote:

Just out of curiosity are you on a 1st or 3rd provisional? If so did you have a qualified driver with you? Im not saying you are to blame but if you didn't have the qualified driver with you then you shouldn't have been there and the incident wouldn't have occured.

Ehh ... what is wrong with people here?!!

Dizzyblabla was in the right, SHE was the one who got crashed into. She was following the rules of a junction and traffic lights. It was the other stupid woman who ploughed into her, the FULL licensed driver.

What part of this don't people get?! And even if Dizzyblabla had not been on the road, then that stupid idiot of a woman would have driven into the next car anyway!

Rudolph Claus

Just out of curiosity are you on a 1st or 3rd provisional? If so did you have a qualified driver with you? Im not saying you are to blame but if you didn't have the qualified driver with you then you shouldn't have been there and the incident wouldn't have occured.

That is such a retarded thing to say. Sure, if the filter lights wernt there the accident probably wouldnt have happened either. Sure, lets get rid of all the filter lights for simple full licenced drivers that cant use them. :rolleyes:

I believe alot of the people that get confused or that dont understand the lights st these junctions are of the middle-aged full licenced drivers that did their test when there wernt that many filtered light junctions around, and so never really learned them properly. Whereas provisional drivers are usually young drivers (unless they`re them geeks on their 3rd/9th provisional) who had to know how filter lights worked and learned them as they would be coming accross them on their tests.

I`d strongly say the ratio of provisional and full licence drivers involved in accidents at these type of filter junctions are way higher in the to the full licenced drivers.

colm_mcm

Nuttzy wrote:

That is such a retarded thing to say. Sure, if the filter lights wernt there the accident probably wouldnt have happened either. Sure, lets get rid of all the filter lights for simple full licenced drivers that cant use them.

I believe alot of the people that get confused or that dont understand the lights st these junctions are of the middle-aged full licenced drivers that did their test when there wernt that many filtered light junctions around, and so never really learned them properly. Whereas provisional drivers are usually young drivers (unless they`re them geeks on their 3rd/9th provisional) who had to know how filter lights worked and learned them as they would be coming accross them on their tests.

I`d strongly say the ratio of provisional and full licence drivers involved in accidents at these type of filter junctions are way higher in the to the full licenced drivers.

Filter lights aren't quantum physics. you don't cross a junction if you have a green light, unless they're is a filter specifically telling you to do so. That's just common sense. Any driver who has any doubts about how traffic lights or roundabouts should swallow their pride and ask someone to explain them.

murphaph

kbannon wrote:

erm, is there a typo in there [should left be right]?

Yep, typo-my bad

TempestSabre

The OP was...Traffic Lights for different lanes.

Personally watching people over the years, it obvious that a lot of people ARE confused about this. Sure the rules are clear, but a lot of people don't get it. I must see a near miss nearly every morning or evening.

Obviously it would be great if you could raise the skill level of all drivers, and improve enforcement. But that would take time. Even if they were doing something about it. Which they're not. A quick fix in the meanwhile would be to improve the safety of the junctions where people get confused and accidents happen. That also is just common sense.

Dizzyblabla

and accidents are bad... the stiffness is hitting in now, I've a dirty rottten bruise from the seatbelt, my ribs hurt and it feels like I was headbanging the night away my neck feels so bad....
Tomorrow I find out if my car has been written off or if it can be fixed... although to look at it, it didn't seem too bad, the bonnet of her octavia crumpled, and my little nissan micra looks like it was just the driver side bumper and front wing was damaged, but the suspension is gone, the radiator was leaking and when we tried to move it out of the way, the steering was gone too... my poor car, only had the new one 6 months too *sigh*....

Capt'n Midnight

TempestSabre wrote:

Obviously it would be great if you could raise the skill level of all drivers, and improve enforcement. But that would take time. Even if they were doing something about it. Which they're not. A quick fix in the meanwhile would be to improve the safety of the junctions where people get confused and accidents happen. That also is just common sense.

A quicker fix would be an eductation campaign - reruning the old ads - could be done tomorrow (no I don't know how long ads have to be booked in advance). Or perhaps issuing a new copy of the rules of the road and posting it to every licensed vehicle's address.

Enforcement of existing laws could also be done tomorrow - simple message, if you take chances you will get done by the Gardaì. You will always have morons and chancers on the road. But if the laws were enforced then even they would start to think.

There are some people in our society who are incapable of driving civilly for psychological reasons, like not giving a rats ass for anyone's safety. Until the Gov't reduce the driving test waiting times to EU levels ( one month max - not one month average) then IMHO they are negligant too.

TempestSabre

Everything could be done tommorrow. Yes thats realistic alright. You remind me of an old boss where everything could be done in 2mins. He used to wonder why none of his projects came in on time.

Theres fat chance in being done by the guards, thats why people ignore the rules in the first place.

Dizzyblabla

well they are in talks about bringing out the new penalty points, for careless driving, lets see if that gives any improvements... (I just hope my drivers test comes through soon!!)

jd

I don't know if anybody is familar with the turn into Santry Park (Crown Plaza) coming from Ballymun, but there is a right-hand filter there. I have got a beeped a few times when waiting for the right filter to come on (there is no full green, just a straight filter, and a right filter). Annoying as hell.
jd

Seth Brundle

tinkerbell wrote:

Ehh ... what is wrong with people here?!!

Dizzyblabla was in the right, SHE was the one who got crashed into. She was following the rules of a junction and traffic lights. It was the other stupid woman who ploughed into her, the FULL licensed driver.

What part of this don't people get?! And even if Dizzyblabla had not been on the road, then that stupid idiot of a woman would have driven into the next car anyway!

Nuttzy wrote:

That is such a retarded thing to say. Sure, if the filter lights wernt there the accident probably wouldnt have happened either. Sure, lets get rid of all the filter lights for simple full licenced drivers that cant use them. :rolleyes:
<snip>

I don't believe that it is retarded. I never said that it was the OPs fault - in fact I stated tht it wasn't!
However, going under the assumption that the OP needed to be accompanied and wasn't then they should have not been there - end of story - and therefore the incident would not have occured. A judge would also view it this way.

BrianD3

One reason why learners should be accompanied by someone with a full licence (preferably a driving instructor) is because the learner might miss a hazard that the experienced driver might spot and point out to the driver. It is possible that this crash might have been avoided had the OP been accompanied. Even though it was the other driver's fault it is still up to all drivers to be aware of hazards around them. Learners usually lack this awareness but can acquire it with experience.

Also, I don't understand why people are talking about complicated junctions and traffic lights etc. It's not rocket science and anyone who doesn't understand these basics has no business being on the road. I think many people who have difficulty understanding filter lights etc. simply haven't had enough driving lessons. Maybe they got their licence without doing a test or maybe they did a test but were lucky with the test route, scraped through the test on the day etc.

I think John R summed it up really well - they half know some of the rules yet still think they're OK to be on the road.

el tel

Is there any particular reason why in the South, that green arrows on traffic lights are used to control "straight ahead" movement? In the North arrows on traffic lights are for controlling left or right turns only. It has taken me quite a while to get used to driving through red lights ìn Dublin by virture of an illuminated green arrow taking precedence.

murphaph

el tel wrote:

Is there any particular reason why in the South, that green arrows on traffic lights are used to control "straight ahead" movement? In the North arrows on traffic lights are for controlling left or right turns only. It has taken me quite a while to get used to driving through red lights ìn Dublin by viture of an illuminated green arrow taking precedence.

Straight ahead green arrows exist in the UK too! They are sometimes necessarry to protect pedestrians moving in the same direction as the main flow of trafic. Depends on the junction.

koneko

All the provisional licence discussion aside;
Dizzyblabla, I wouldn't feel sorry for her, she was in the wrong. As someone else mentioned, Green means proceed with caution, not launch away and don't pay attention. She had no definite green light (doesn't sound like it) and/or she was turning right, she should have been extra careful and waited until it was safe/clear to go.

It's always best to be careful at these type of junctions though, there will always be some eedjit who will race out without paying attention.

mike65

Can we stick to the topic please?

My own bugbear is turn left filters that switch off for no good reason! Here in Waterford on Passage Road there is a set of lights at a t junction. When driving from the East you can use the left turn filter which annoyingly switches off (there is no red light) then goes green again as the main "straight ahead" lights turn green 5 seconds later. The filter need not switch off at all.

Needless to say if its 'on red' I use the left turn anyways.

Mike.

Dizzyblabla

BrianD3 wrote:

One reason why learners should be accompanied by someone with a full licence (preferably a driving instructor) is because the learner might miss a hazard that the experienced driver might spot and point out to the driver. It is possible that this crash might have been avoided had the OP been accompanied. Even though it was the other driver's fault it is still up to all drivers to be aware of hazards around them. Learners usually lack this awareness but can acquire it with experience.

The accident could not have been avoided, I promise you that, I saw her coming towards me and tried to break, and she's lucky I did, because if I hadn't, she would have gone into my driver door and crushed me. This was split second, if someone was in the car next to me, all they could do would be to tell me to break too, which I did. This woman was more than likely trying to go before the lights went red (I assume) and was driving too fast (even though she shouldn't have gone at all). If it hadn't have been me, it would have been another car.
I spoke to the insurance company today and they said they were investigating it because she said that she felt the filter light was not working... The light wasn't on because she wasn't supposed to turn, that sounds like it's working to me!

murphaph

mike65 wrote:

Can we stick to the topic please?

My own bugbear is turn left filters that switch off for no good reason! Here in Waterford on Passage Road there is a set of lights at a t junction. When driving from the East you can use the left turn filter which annoyingly switches off (there is no red light) then goes green again as the main "straight ahead" lights turn green 5 seconds later. The filter need not switch off at all.

Needless to say if its 'on red' I use the left turn anyways.

Mike.

Oh yes, these fcukin junctions do my head in and it's completely pointless! Isn't it a pain getting stuck behind someone who doesn't know the light is 'not really red' and stops? I never get angry at them because, hey, it's not their fault the signals installers made a boo boo. Call the council Mike. Tell them it's pointless and causes delays, which cause frustration and then accidents.

blorg

murphaph wrote:

Straight ahead green arrows exist in the UK too! They are sometimes necessarry to protect pedestrians moving in the same direction as the main flow of trafic. Depends on the junction.

If a straight ahead green is illuminated, a red left is only a suggestion.

At least that's the way it seems in Dublin; I've been nearly mown down more times than I can count when crossing as a pedestrian with green man illuminated.

Gandhi

In the US, major junctions would usually have a sign stuck next to the light that tells you explicitly what to do. Either "Right turn yield on green O" or "Right turn on green arrow only".

You would still get some people who would screw up anyway, but it might cut down on it some bit.

blorg

I'm aware of that but certain North American jurisdictions do allow a right-turn across a pedestrian green man (bad idea IMHO, but it is legally allowed.) Of course cars still have to yield to pedestrians in these circumstances who have right of way.

Here in Ireland we actually have a very simple rule of "no turn left on a red left". EVER. Arguably simpler than putting up signs I would think. I'm not talking of cases where there is just a green O or arrows, I'm talking about a green straight on together with a specific red light on the left turn. It's simple enough!

Of course many drivers also think it's fine to go through a straight red on a pedestrian crossing. We could stick up 'red means stop' signs for them I guess :-)