Italian lawmakers OK use of lethal force to protect property.

Manic Moran

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4645228.stm

The Italian parliament has passed legislation allowing people to shoot robbers in self-defence.

The law permits the use of guns and knives by people in homes or workplaces to protect lives or belongings.

(Continues on website)
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Good for them. I wonder what that will do to the burglary rate? Probably depends on what the weapon ownership rate is in Italy. Nothing like a bit of deterrent to keep people in line, eh?

NTM

pete

Manic Moran wrote:

I wonder what that will do to the burglary rate?

I wonder what it'll do for the burglar-to-murderer conversion rate.

Right wing governments = relaxation on gun control.

Thank Christ Bertie's a socialist...:eek:

JohnK

Personally, I'm all for the killing of burglars. If some scum comes into my house (s)he looses all rights to exist. Unfortunately, this will probably have the effect of more burglars killing the people they are robbing.

JohnK

JohnK wrote:

If some scum comes into my house (s)he looses all rights to exist.

You should get a rocking chair and sit on the porch clutching a shotgun.

If it transpired that the person only wanted a glass of water, how many cartridges would you onload in them for coming into your house?

JohnK

Deleted User wrote:

You should get a rocking chair and sit on the porch clutching a shotgun.

I just might. I could do with a nice chair

Deleted User wrote:

If it transpired that the person only wanted a glass of water, how many cartridges would you onload in them for coming into your house?

Just the two. One warning shot. One killing shot

JohnK

JohnK wrote:

Just the two. One warning shot. One killing shot

I don't know whether to call you JohnK or Billy the Kid...;)

Rovi

Deleted User wrote:

If it transpired that the person only wanted a glass of water, how many cartridges would you onload in them for coming into your house?

If I found myself stuck for a glass of water and my only recourse was to approach someone's house for said water, I'd knock at the door or ring the bell, and ask for what I wanted when someone opened the door/granted me entrance.
If I took it upon myself to enter through the window, I couldn't expect to complain about any consequences that befell me.

If I was utterly desperate for a drink, and someone's door was wide open, and I could see a frosty chilled glass of purest spring water on their kitchen counter, I MIGHT enter their house; but it would be to the accompaniment of a lot of knocking on doors and calling out: "Hello, hello, anyone home?"

Burglars aren't usually known to do that sort of thing.

.

Rovi

Rovi wrote:

Burglars aren't usually known to do that sort of thing.

Is there a standard burglar?

I would have thought they'd vary for some kid who chances his arm nicking a DVD player for his next hit, to the career housebreaker, to the person who is not afraid to use violence.

Frankly, I'm the type who'd tell them to take the DVD and I'd go out and get a new one, rather than look down the rifle sight at the spot between his eyes...

Rovi

Deleted User wrote:

I would have thought they'd vary for some kid who chances his arm nicking a DVD player for his next hit, to the career housebreaker, to the person who is not afraid to use violence.

And at 4 in the morning when you awake to find one (or more) of these characters moving about your house, you'll tell the difference, how, exactly?

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Manic Moran

I think there is probably a fair compromise of caution.

Even the most good-natured homeowner should work on the worst-case assumption that the chap in his home is willing to cause him harm. (Some jurisdictions have a legal presumption of just that)

Even the least professional burglar, just out to get a playstation should work on the worst-case assumption that the homeowner whose house they are burlaring has a shotgun/pistol and both knows how and is willing to use it without asking him his intentions.

Everyone suddenly gets a lot more careful.

NTM

The_Minister

Deleted User wrote:

Is there a standard burglar?

I would have thought they'd vary for some kid who chances his arm nicking a DVD player for his next hit, to the career housebreaker, to the person who is not afraid to use violence.

Frankly, I'm the type who'd tell them to take the DVD and I'd go out and get a new one, rather than look down the rifle sight at the spot between his eyes...

Given the support for Patrick Nally (murdered man in cold blood) Id say this would be popular in Ireland.

Manic Moran

Deleted User wrote:

rather than look down the rifle sight at the spot between his eyes...

Shows that you're not qualified to use a firearm in your defense anyway. Rifles are the least-suitable of all firearms for home defense, and you shouldn't be aiming at their head.

NTM

Red Alert

I agree with this bill, as long as it extends to private residences only. (So tesco for example couldn't shoot me for happenning to be in their boiler room for example).

The use of non-lethal weapons like Tasers should also be considered.

Manic Moran

The law as it stands says one can use 'reasonable force'. I really can't see how it gets fairer than that. What force can be more reasonable than reasonable force? That means the guy coming at you with the knife is entitled to get the legs blown off him, but the kid sneaking out the window with the DVD isn't going to get two cartridges unloaded into his back over a €69.99 machine. It certainly doesn't give a carte blanche to the Nallys and Martins of this world who saw travellers as appropriate target practice...

Manic Moran wrote:

Shows that you're not qualified to use a firearm in your defense anyway. Rifles are the least-suitable of all firearms for home defense, and you shouldn't be aiming at their head.

So the law would be that one could shoot an intruder ah but sure Jaysus now don't be aimin' fer the head or nuttin' like that sure aim for the right knee if he's right footed but go for the other wan if he's left footed like...

Shooting is shooting. I suspect that it would be in the lap of the Gods as to how the target fares at 3 or 4 in the morning with a houseowner in a panic...

JohnK

Deleted User wrote:

So the law would be that one could shoot an intruder ah but sure Jaysus now don't be aimin' fer the head or nuttin' like that sure aim for the right knee if he's right footed but go for the other wan if he's left footed like...

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think he ment don't aim for the head because its a smaller target so you're more likely to miss. Aim for the torso. Its bigger so easier to hit and can still cause some serious damage

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote:

I would have thought they'd vary for some kid who chances his arm nicking a DVD player for his next hit, to the career housebreaker, to the person who is not afraid to use violence.

Personally I'd shoot all the varieties TBH. Having seen the really traumatic effect burglary can have on people, especially the elderly, I'd have little guilt in removing one of these muppets from the gene pool.

Frankly, I'm the type who'd tell them to take the DVD and I'd go out and get a new one, rather than look down the rifle sight at the spot between his eyes...

Frankly I'd shoot them if they tried to take the disk, never mind the player.

Shooting is shooting. I suspect that it would be in the lap of the Gods as to how the target fares at 3 or 4 in the morning with a houseowner in a panic...

And why, pray tell, is the houseowner in a panic? Sod the target, they lost all rights when they entered uninvited with intent to rob or worse.

KTRIC

As far as I'm concerned when someone enters my house without permission they're mine, simple as. I'd f**king destroy them and dump them out on the street. What are they going to do ? , go to the Gardai and complain that they got the sh!t kicked out of them when they broke into a house !!

JohnK

K-TRIC wrote:

As far as I'm concerned when someone enters my house without permission they're mine, simple as. I'd f**king destroy them and dump them out on the street. What are they going to do ? , go to the Gardai and complain that they got the sh!t kicked out of them when they broke into a house !!

But that is what they do. Then they sue you for it like the bastards they are.

KTRIC

JohnK wrote:

But that is what they do. Then they sue you for it like the bastards they are.

I know and I'd see them all the way to court. We need to stand up to this scum and not let them away with it.

Zombrex

Wibbs wrote:

Sod the target, they lost all rights when they entered uninvited with intent to rob or worse.

True, but then you are far far more likely to blow yourself or a family member away with your gun than the robber.

All this is going to do is make sure robbers come armed to the teeth and kill you first before they rob you.

JohnK

K-TRIC wrote:

I know and I'd see them all the way to court. We need to stand up to this scum and not let them away with it.

That’s all well and good but when it gets to court the Judges generally only look at one single fact: Was the person on your property when they were injured? If yes, your liable. They don’t seem to give a damn as to why the person was there in the first place :mad:

KTRIC

JohnK wrote:

That’s all well and good but when it gets to court the Judges generally only look at one single fact: Was the person on your property when they were injured? If yes, your liable. They don’t seem to give a damn as to why the person was there in the first place :mad:

You're forgetting one thing, if the person doesn't make it to the Gardai then who's to know

Manic Moran

JohnK wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think he ment don't aim for the head because its a smaller target so you're more likely to miss. Aim for the torso. Its bigger so easier to hit and can still cause some serious damage

Bingo. Aim center mass.

NTM

Manic Moran

Wicknight wrote:

True, but then you are far far more likely to blow yourself or a family member away with your gun than the robber.

That suggestion is debateable, to say the least. That accidental shootings of family members have occured is true. That the numbers of such outweigh the effect on burglars is less so.

All this is going to do is make sure robbers come armed to the teeth and kill you first before they rob you.

The relationship between the increase/decrease of armed homeowners to the decrease/increase of home invasions while the resident is present is pretty much proven at this point.

I am not willing to bet my life solely on the good nature of the criminal currently in my home to not kill me. Such killings occur in Ireland/UK with the current defense laws. If the guy -may- cause me harm, that's good enough for me. I only get one life, I've no intention of parting with it cheaply on a mistaken estimate of character.

NTM

Zombrex

Manic Moran wrote:

That suggestion is debateable, to say the least. That accidental shootings of family members have occured is true. That the numbers of such outweigh the effect on burglars is less so.

Well the statistics are quite clear, if you own a gun you are more likely to be shot by your own gun in a home invasion than by the gun of the robber.

Manic Moran wrote:

The relationship between the increase/decrease of armed homeowners to the decrease/increase of home invasions while the resident is present is pretty much proven at this point.

Which statistics would those be. The only ones I've ever seen show the murder rate during home invasion is higher in countries that allow use of deadly force (ie shooting someone) in defense of home

Manic Moran wrote:

I am not willing to bet my life solely on the good nature of the criminal currently in my home to not kill me.

But you are happy to have a loaded weapon under your pillow?

Manic Moran

But you are happy to have a loaded weapon under your pillow?

It's actually in the drawer under my bed. Pillow gets a bit uncomfortable, and it can fall down behind the headboard which is annoying.

There are several criteria to responsible firearms ownership for defensive use.

The first is that you must know how to use the thing, both mechanically and tactically. Usually people figure the mechanical bit out, particularly if they own a revolver, Glock, SIG or some other such firearm which has no safety catch that people might forget about in time of stress. This is fixed through training. Tactically, people need to forget about what they see in the movies, no 'putting a gun to the head' and so on. Again, fixed through proper training. You don't drive a car without taking driving lessons, similarly shooting lessons are a good idea.

The second is that you must be willing to use it. People thinking "I'll get a gun, and scare the burglar off" are quite liable to end up dead. As a result, people who wish to use a firearm as a defensive weapon must have convinced himself/herself that he's willing to kill before he even buys the thing.

So, in my case, I meet both criteria. I know how to use my weapon, and I know I can shoot people if I have to, since I've done it before.

Which statistics would those be. The only ones I've ever seen show the murder rate during home invasion is higher in countries that allow use of deadly force (ie shooting someone) in defense of home

I note you use 'murder rate' and not 'death rate'. The implication being that you are looking solely at unjustifiable homicide, unfortunately, if you're comparing figures between the UK and the US, the FBI requires that all killings, whether justifiable or not be listed as 'homicides', while British reporting systems look (more sensibly, I think) at the outcome of the investigation/trial.

Even then, there's some factors of note. For example, after the Australian ban came into effect, the State of Victoria saw a 300% increase in firearm homicides the first year. Firearms murders in London went up 87% between 2000 and 2001.

Let's have a look at Kennesaw, GA, which is a suburb of Atlanta: There is a law in effect there which states that every household must have a firearm. Burglary rates dropped 89% after that law passed in 1982.

"Hot" burglaries, where the homeowner is present at the time, are at about 55% in the UK, and around 12% in the US. If the burglar prefers to choose a time when you're not around, it's a lot harder to get killed by him.

Ultimately, I think it's an issue of personal choice.
Let's say that you are in the house, and only one in, oh, 100 burglars are willing to cause you harm if they know you're there. (and if they know you know they are there). I'm betting my life on a 99% chance which is entirely out of my control. Wasn't there a nun murdered in a home invasion in Ireland last year? I seem to recall hearing about it on the radio. If someone is willing to kill an old nun, I don't think he'd be worried about me. Even if, and I dispute the contention, my life is on a 95% chance due to my owning a firearm, at least I have some input over what goes on.

NTM

Wibbs

Couldn't agree more with Manic Moran.

As I said before, I've seen what is thought of by many as a petty crime destroy lives. It does not get the attention it deserves from our politicians, police or judiciary. I knew one elderly gentleman who took his own life after he was burgled twice. The cops could do fu*k all* to either protect him or prosecute the junkie scum who were known to them. In fairness their hands are tied more often than not, even if they catch the scum. Longer prison sentences, drug rehab, etc allied with much stronger protection in law for the homeowner would go some way to stopping these "people".

I appreciate that something must be done, I just don't feel I can make the judgement that life is cheaper than material possessions, no matter how scummy the intruder...

The_Minister

JohnK wrote:

But that is what they do. Then they sue you for it like the bastards they are.

My friend's father's friend was visiting my friend's father when he saw someone outside in his car. He rushed out, grabbed the guy and kicked him in the yarbles.
He had to pay medical bills

Rovi

Deleted User wrote:

I appreciate that something must be done, I just don't feel I can make the judgement that life is cheaper than material possessions, no matter how scummy the intruder...

If you're willing to gamble the lives/health of your spouse/partner, children, elderly parents, etc, etc, on the possibility that the intruder(s) in your home at 3 in the morning are merely 'misguided youths' who have been 'failed by society' and who 'wouldn't hurt a fly', and you're okay with them breaking your windows or doors and making off with your expensive electronic consumer items (paid for with your hard earned money), then you're a better man than I.

Good luck with the 'hugs and kisses' and 'I feel your pain' approach.

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