Dartmouth Square "purchase"

Snickers Man

Who is this [mod edit] Noel O'Gara who is claiming 'ownership' of a Dublin square and wants to keep passers by out until such time as the Council buys him out of his lease, or comes up with some other financial inducement?

Why is there not an uproar about this? There are few enough open spaces in Dublin without letting [mod edit] claim ownership and then say:"Yez can't come in coz I say so"

What use is the land to him? He would never get planning permission to put anything on it,even in our notorious brown paper bag culture. He doesn't live any where near it so he hardly wants it for his private use.

It just seems he wants to act the bollox and deprive people--all people not just the residents of the square--of the simple pleasures of a littly idyllic green space in the middle of what is rapidly becoming a concrete jungle city.

[mod edit] IMHO.

Well, I suppose if he's sitting on a goldmine, no harm chancing his arm. But of course presumably any public square has well established rights of access in favour of the public over it - much like most titles on the side of a road actually extend to the middle of the road, but because a right of way has been established out over time, it's of little use to the owners of the adjacent land.

ronbyrne2005

the land is zoned recreational so he could put in an exclusive tennis club! blame the council for not renewing the lease.i dont agree with him but find it funny to listen to all the rich neighbours complaining

Blackjack

Would he not have to pay a huge amount of Public Liability Insurance until he made provision to stop people getting in?.

He's clearly trying to pull a fast one, although the Council have to be held to account for this as well.

Gandhi

Blackjack wrote:

Would he not have to pay a huge amount of Public Liability Insurance until he made provision to stop people getting in?.

...Interesting. What if everyone started claiming they tripped and fell walking through the square and started showering this O'Gara character with lawsuits????

DadaKopf

As a resident, I'm really angry with the council for not buying it. They were offered the property by Darley for around £8,000 years ago and never bought it. So this O'Gara idiot offered money after the Darley's got pissed off with the Council. I'm also annoyed that the resident's association is populated by tossers.

Anyway, some law-talking person on RTE was saying that since the land is zoned for recreational space there are very well established rights of public access. Actually, I'm annoyed that the park gets locked at all. Spent years playing in that park.

Anyway, I hope that a clear compulsory purchase order can be placed by the Council. It's not like he can build anything on the property. You know that residents in the area tried to turn the park into a parking lot once?

P'tooee!

The_Minister

Snickers Man wrote:

even in our notorious brown paper bag culture.

I'll think you will find its brown envelopes:D


Its his he has a right to it

DadaKopf

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

i dont agree with him but find it funny to listen to all the rich neighbours complaining

It's not the 'rich neighbours'. It's everyone - people living in dingy flats in ranelagh and Leeson Street, people working in surrounding offices taking a break, tourists all enjoy that park and deserve access to it. And, sure, maybe the new influx of neighbours are rich 'cos they could afford to pay rediculous money for those houses, but amazingly, until 10 years ago, NO ONE wanted to live in old, dingy, drafty houses so only weirdos and poor people lived in them.

Snickers Man

DadaKopf wrote:

It's not the 'rich neighbours'. It's everyone - people living in dingy flats in ranelagh and Leeson Street, people working in surrounding offices taking a break, tourists all enjoy that park and deserve access to it. And, sure, maybe the new influx of neighbours are rich 'cos they could afford to pay rediculous money for those houses, but amazingly, until 10 years ago, NO ONE wanted to live in old, dingy, drafty houses so only weirdos and poor people lived in them.

What the man said. Anybody who gets amusement out of what this O'Gara git is doing is just indulging in blatant and short-sighted anti-Dublin 4 begrudgery.

The residents should not be uppermost in people's minds, especially if the allegation that they wanted to turn it into a car park is true. It's everyone who values a little green space for recreational purposes.

I'm old enough to remember when Merrion Square was locked to all but residents. The church owned it and were once going to build a new cathedral there. Now it's open to everyone and anyone can enjoy what is now a beautiful well laid out park. Positive brownie point for the old church there.

I also believe Fitzwilliam Square should be open to the general public and not to the keyholders --most of whom are businesses anyway--of Fitzwilliam Square.

If we let turds like this property speculating git get away with his ransom plans the whole city will be just a concrete jungle.

Even in London, they have the concept of Common Land ie wide open spaces that you can run, jog, loll about in the sun in and upon which nobody can build. It's ridiculous that Dublin is becoming more built up than London which has 10-12 times its population.

****ing Westmeath people. Look at Westmeath online and the first thing you see is advice on how to get planning permission.

Oh bejabers they're the cute hoors!!!!

lostexpectation

how did he end up owning it?

DadaKopf

Nobody knows yet, except O'Gara says he bought the freehold from the Darley Estate, the family that originally developed the square and some other surrounding roads.

Snickers Man

Snickers Man wrote:

If we let turds like this property speculating git get away with his ransom plans the whole city will be just a concrete jungle.


****ing Westmeath people. Look at Westmeath online and the first thing you see is advice on how to get planning permission.

Oh bejabers they're the cute hoors!!!!

Snickers I've edited your first post to remove the name calling and various filth.
Do not let me see you name people on this forum and cast aspersions at them again.
Make your point without the bad language.

lostexpectation

http://constructireland.ie/news.php?artID=3413




A battle has broken out over access to the leafy Victorian square in Mr McDowell's constituency between Yorkshire Ripper author?? and Athlone stone merchant Noel O'Gara and some of Dublin's most affluent families.


However, Mr O'Gara said: "We own it now. It's 100 per cent legal. The Council's lease expired in 1997 and they never renewed it."

Locals are outraged. The public park has been maintained by Dublin City Council since 1987, when the lease was passed on by the Loreto nuns.

However, Mr O'Gara, who had his eye on the land after buying up several ground rents in the area in recent years, denied this.

"I own it now and in any case, it was never really a public park. They are crying about the children and old people but all their kids are over-privileged with big gardens. I bought this from Mr Patrick Darley, who got it from his father, who got it from his father before him," Mr O'Gara said. "I can't go into their gardens, so why should they go into mine? They just want to take their dogs into my land. That's why they are annoyed, they've nowhere to bring their dogs for a crap," Mr O'Gara said.

In the meantime, Mr O'Gara has said he is in negotiations with Dublin City Council for it to take up a lease again. However, local Labour councillor Mary Freehill said the Council had demanded proof from O'Gara that he is the new owner of the land, but he had not yet provided it.

The park is not registered with the Land Registry but with the older deeds system, which can be very difficult to tie down.



© Sunday Independent

Snickers Man

Earthman wrote:

Snickers I've edited your first post to remove the name calling and various filth.
Do not let me see you name people on this forum and cast aspersions at them again.
Make your point without the bad language.

Well OK point taken about the bad language. But I am angry about this. And as for naming people. So far as I know this 'person' is not a poster on this site, and even if he was, I would have no way of knowing what his handle is.

He has been named in the media and appears to be quite happy to be named as having perpetrated this land snatch. So it's public domain knowledge.

Snickers Man

Snickers Man wrote:

He has been named in the media and appears to be quite happy to be named as having perpetrated this land snatch. So it's public domain knowledge.

I was more interested in not allowing you to use this message board to peg colourfull insults at a named individual.
By all means discuss and complain but dont be doing the insults.

Victor

I sometimes use the park, more often in summer though. Nice spot, never too busy, although I had to leave once as a couple were getting a little too romantic for me to be comforatable.

If it's his land, then thats it. I imagine there is no right of way as the park is locked at night, there is no unfettered access.

There is a risk it could be converted to a tennis club or the like, just like Brighton Square (tennis), Grosevnor Square (tennis), Kenilworth Square (rugby), Mountpleasent Square (tennis). Sinn Féin have campaigned for these and Fitzwilliam Square to be opened up. I wonder if the would do the same for Gaelic sports grounds? :v:

Of the Rathmines township parks I think Eaton Square, Belgrave Square and Palmerston Park are the only ones that are public, other than these the only green spaces are a handful of sports grounds and some incidental green spaces.

Blackjack

Snickers Man wrote:

****ing Westmeath people. Look at Westmeath online and the first thing you see is advice on how to get planning permission.

Oh bejabers they're the cute hoors!!!!

Nice tarring job with that brush there.

strassenwolf

Snickers Man wrote:

What the man said. Anybody who gets amusement out of what this O'Gara git is doing is just indulging in blatant and short-sighted anti-Dublin 4 begrudgery.

The residents should not be uppermost in people's minds, especially if the allegation that they wanted to turn it into a car park is true. It's everyone who values a little green space for recreational purposes.

I'm old enough to remember when Merrion Square was locked to all but residents. The church owned it and were once going to build a new cathedral there. Now it's open to everyone and anyone can enjoy what is now a beautiful well laid out park. Positive brownie point for the old church there.

I also believe Fitzwilliam Square should be open to the general public and not to the keyholders --most of whom are businesses anyway--of Fitzwilliam Square.

If we let turds like this property speculating git get away with his ransom plans the whole city will be just a concrete jungle.

Even in London, they have the concept of Common Land ie wide open spaces that you can run, jog, loll about in the sun in and upon which nobody can build. It's ridiculous that Dublin is becoming more built up than London which has 10-12 times its population.

****ing Westmeath people. Look at Westmeath online and the first thing you see is advice on how to get planning permission.

Oh bejabers they're the cute hoors!!!!

A very good post that. Though it would be anti-Dublin 6 begrudgery surely?;)

DadaKopf

Actually, I'm amazed that a story like this actually made national news.

Maybe it's anti-Dublin 6 begrudgery. No, I mean, why are people discussing what's basically a local issue of hardly any interest to anyone else?

All the same, I think it's good that rights to public recreational space (and hopefully demands for more of it) is on the public agenda.

Snickers Man

DadaKopf wrote:

Actually, I'm amazed that a story like this actually made national news.

Maybe it's anti-Dublin 6 begrudgery. No, I mean, why are people discussing what's basically a local issue of hardly any interest to anyone else?

All the same, I think it's good that rights to public recreational space (and hopefully demands for more of it) is on the public agenda.

Like I said, our primary concern here should NOT be the residents of Dartmouth Square. One of the worst possible outcomes would be a sweetheart deal where only they get access to the park.

This goes to the heart of what sort of cities we want to live in. Left to the hands of property developers and 'cute hoors' like this unmentionable all we will have is a concrete jungle.

And it's not just a Dublin issue. REading the paper today there is a story about the Earl of Limerick, whoever he is, complaining about the erection of a block of flats in a corner of the People's Park which is land that had been donated to the city by one of his ancestors for use as a public park.

He claimed that he had not been furnished with full information about the development and had assumed that it would have been environmentally sensitive and socially useful.

Clearly, he didn't realise the sort of cowboy he was dealing with.

His anger is endorsed my Minister of State Tom O'Malley who said: "The development is of no social or environmental benefit whatsoever and the earl's astonishment at the turn of events is shared widely by the ordinary people of Limerick."

Lord knows we need property developers but we also need to agree on the ground rules within which they operate and ensure that they are enforced because they work on the basis that forgiveness is easier to get than permission. And once something has been constructed, however illegally, it is almost impossible to have it torn down.

The people of Limerick are stuck with that apartment block in their people's park, unfortunately. It's the duty of all of us to resist what this 'person' is trying to do in Dartmouth Square or every bit of green space that we have will be converted into concrete.

A nice square that anybody can stroll past or through benefits everybody. OK it benefits those that can afford to live there more but anybody can enjoy the pleasing ambience just by walking through. THere are no barriers on the roads intoand out of it.

If we let this one go, they'll concrete over Herbert Park next. And then the Phoenix Park. And God knows what else.

DadaKopf

Yep. Totally agree. Like I said, I'm glad public space is on the public agenda. Dublin, and every city in the country, needs more of it. Much more. And we need aggressive legislation to break the cosy relationship between developers and government/local council in conjunction with better construction and planning regulations.

Ultimately, we need a more democratic, consultative approach where government departments (transport, enterprise, environment, social affairs, the planning office etc.) work together with developers and communities to deliver totally sustainable urban environments, which should be enshrined in Irish law as a human right, which the state is obliged to provide. Capitalism already works to unequally distribute the benefits of social space, so we need a way to redistribute environment more equitably. I think planning is making a comeback.

Anyway, I was walking into work today and Dartmouth Sq is open again. Presumably neighbours cut the locks again. A few kids were playing football in it. This is going to continue for a long time. At least until O'Gara can actually prove to the Council that he owns the property.

Snickers Man

This should be an issue right up on their agenda too.

I went for a stroll through Dartmouth Square at lunchtime yesterday and it was beautiful. Gates open. A few people sitting around having their sandwiches, another couple canoodling, some people walking their dogs.

Why any kill joy would want to lock this up just because he thinks he can is beyond me.

There was no sign of any workmen, or protestors.

Hopefully neither will be needed.

Snickers Man

Here's a few facts about the guy who claims to own Dartmouth Square. Among his attributes are:

1) He's a qualified accountant

2) He's from Westmeath

3) He's a bit of a conspiracy theorist. Apparently the Real Yorkshire Ripper is an Irishman who is still walking around Ripping people while Peter Sutcliffe, who was a copycat killer of only a few of the supposed Ripper victims does time. Go figure..

Don't take my word for it. Check out his website. There are two brief autobiographies of him here and here including a pic. Mind you, he's at least 61 now and that picture looks so-o-o 1970s.

Sounds to me like a total fruitcake.

lostexpectation

DadaKopf wrote:

Yep. Totally agree. Like I said, I'm glad public space is on the public agenda. At least until O'Gara can actually prove to the Council that he owns the property.

im not very familier with those other squares you mentioned that are tennis courts now, places like fitzwilliams square are in lieu of front gardens for the surroundings houses so does that mean dartmouth square and these squares with tennis courts were also once front gardens, can all residence around these tennis squares gain access to them?

Snickers Man

Traditionally those houses around the squares you mention would have had pretty large BACK gardens. However, they have all more or less been turned into car parks since the area became a business quarter.

I don't know who owns Fitzwillliam Square but I do know that occupiers of houses around it have rights to use it. Our company was considering moving to a basement around there and we would have had a key to it had we gone.

Merrion Square was closed to all but residents until the mid 70s. The Catholic Church owned it and were going to build a new cathedral on the site. But they gave up that idea and instead opened the park to the public.

I don't like the idea that areas of great beauty not directly attached to houses in the middle of a city should be closed to the general public. Beautiful houses, streets, squares etc should be viewable by everybody. They help make the city what it is.

This does not mean that everybody should have open access to one's hall way, but keeping a beautiful square like Fitzwilliam permanently locked to all but a few is just plain silly in this day and age.

I'm not sure that Dartmouth square was ever closed off until Mr O'Gara tried to assert his property rights It's a little bit further off the beaten track than the others but it's still a delight to visit.

Keep it open.

DadaKopf

Dartmouth Square was opened to the public in 1987/1988. Until then, we had to squeeze through the bars to get in.

cousin_borat

Hopefully with all this publicity he might become a prime candidate of the Revenue for auditing. If he is such a cowboy I'm sure the prospect of having a thorough inspection would really appeal to him. I'm thinking that he will back down on locking the park if the glare of publicity continues to fall on this story.

nicelives

cousin_borat wrote:

Hopefully with all this publicity he might become a prime candidate of the Revenue for auditing. If he is such a cowboy I'm sure the prospect of having a thorough inspection would really appeal to him. I'm thinking that he will back down on locking the park if the glare of publicity continues to fall on this story.

Bizarre, although I think public parks are great, it really has been the council's fault for being so messy with the business we pay them very well to do. I really don't see this guy as a cowboy for telling the council that they need to pay rent to him the new owner in the same way that they paid rent to the old owners before they started having arguments with their landlord. With the council now trying to get a compulsory purchase order to buy this from O'Gara, surely they recognise him as the owner. I really wouldn't see him as a cowboy in the same way as if you buy a piece of land you don't let anyone use it willy nilly or at least you'd expect someone to pay rent if they wished to. All sounds very above board to me.
It's more the emotion of it that seems to have got some people up tight but this happens every day of the week, look at www.myhome.ie if you want to buy something for yourself to rent out or to secure against intruders.

The_Minister

nicelives wrote:

it really has been the council's fault for being so messy with the business we pay them very well to do.

Im fairly sure councillors get **** pay.

nicelives

Firespinner wrote:

Im fairly sure councillors get **** pay.

Fair point, I was more referring to the unelected slaried staff, I wouldn't expect Councillors to be checking leases or expect them to.

JustAnother

Snickers Man wrote:

Who is this [mod edit] Noel O'Gara who is claiming 'ownership' of a Dublin square and wants to keep passers by out until such time as the Council buys him out of his lease, or comes up with some other financial inducement?

Noel O'Gara is a notorious conspiracy theorist who claims that Peter Suttcliffe couldn't be the Yorkshire Ripper. For a webpage that rebuts O'Garas' claims about the Ripper case see: this link.

I have no evidence about O'Garas' legal entitlement to be the owner of Dartmouth Square, but I wouldn't be surprised if his claim is complete nonsense.