Problems with a plumber: What are my options?

Dinarius

I had a plumber completely replumb a house including the installation of gas central heating.

The job was fine except for two problems.

1. He (well his assistant did) inserted the electric immersion element into the tank between two of the central heating coils, mangling the element in the process. This was discovered a few weeks after he had finished. An electrician, with great difficulty, removed the element and replaced it.

2. Just yesterday, the gas boiler started making funny noises. I called out the dealer's repair service. The discovered that there is no collar connecting the exhaust at the top of the boiler to the elbow of the vent flue. Only for the fact that the cabinet is sealed.......well let's not go there.

I stupidly paid the plumber €700 more than I should have and he has not been returning my calls looking for my money back and an invoice for the job (which I still don't have either).

Do I have any recourse?

Can in involve Bord Gais usefully?

Is there a plumbers' association? Are they any good?

Any other ideas, without getting legal? Though I will if I have to.

Thanks.

D.

Evergreen

Sounds pretty bad. I know that you don't want to go legal, but if you do then you should consider the small claims court (SCC). The SCC only charges about EUR 15 for the service and there are no solicitors involved, the ruling is binding like fully blown court but there is a limit to the compensation (I think that it is a few thousand).

Worth looking into some more though

Dinarius

Thanks.

I'll certainly bear that in mind.

Someone said that Bord Gais have inspectors and that he could lose his accreditation with them. Anyone know if this is true?

D.

Victor

Wrtie to him, ask for the invoice and for recoupment of the excess paid and repairs costs.

Dinarius wrote:

Someone said that Bord Gais have inspectors and that he could lose his accreditation with them. Anyone know if this is true?

Thats a risk, but try to settle things a bit more amicably beforehand.

rooferPete

Hi Dinarious,

Chances are he is not an approved Bord Gais installer, but if he is I would like to see him removed from their list, if the flue was not correctly fitted he has put the lives of the occupants in big danger.

You can get copies of the cheques you paid him with from your bank, at the moment it's the nearest you have to a receipt.

The small claims court has a limit of €1250-00 but again the legal route is only worth travelling down if the contractor has assets that way you can request the County Sheriff to enforce any judgement you may get in any court.

I am not trying to put you off your right to take legal action just letting you know the possible pit falls.

I know one consumer who sued and obtained a judgement for a large amount against a cowboy builder, it turned out the builder had no assets even his house was owned by the Corporation (at the time) so the consumer lost once to the builder and second time to his legal fees.

Take care

.

Dinarius

Update......

I phoned him and told him about the flue. I told him that I was going to report it to Bord Gais. I could see the whites of his eyes down the line. He's calling here this morning.

As I stupidly didn't get a written quotation for the job (we had worked together many times in the past) it's really his word against mine on the money issue. Yes, I have a complete record of the payments, but that's all. I'll bring it up again today. The guy who came to assess the problem (an engineer from the boiler manufacturer - I thought it was a guarantee issue and not an installation issue as all I could hear was a noise that shouldn't be there) is a witness to the cock-up. So, I guess I have some leverage.

Many thanks guys.

D.

ps.......on the issue of an invoice: apparently, you are not entitled to an invoice unless you are registered for VAT. Incredible, but true. How very, very Irish. Basically, unless you insist on an invoice before handing over the cheque (needless to say, I didn't) you can't demand one afterwards. Ridiculous.

Hagar

Dinarius wrote:

ps.......on the issue of an invoice: apparently, you are not entitled to an invoice unless you are registered for VAT. Incredible, but true. How very, very Irish. Basically, unless you insist on an invoice before handing over the cheque (needless to say, I didn't) you can't demand one afterwards. Ridiculous.

That sounds like a crock. I would be inclined to think he doesn't want to issue you with an invoice because it's not going through his books. Did you make the cheques out to cash, him or his company?

Dinarius

Hi Hagar,

It wasn't the plumber who told me this. It was a tax consultant friend of mine.

You can read about it here.............

http://www.revenue.ie/leaflets/vatguide_chapt9.htm#2

This is the relevant line...........

"A taxable person is not required to issue a VAT invoice to an unregistered person otherwise, but may do so if he or she so wishes."

It could only happen in Ireland.

The moral of the story is, don't hand over the cheque until you have the invoice.

D.

Hagar

That's fair enough from a VAT point of view but are you not entitled to a standard non-VAT invoice or at the very least a receipt detailing what its for? Every retailer supplies those. Without some kind of invoice/receipt how do you establish that the work was done on a date for guarantee purposes? I think he can't refuse a receipt after payment as it would not usually be issued before payment.

Dinarius

Hagar,

I don't know if the law distinguishes between VAT invoices and all other receipts /invoices.

Does anyone?

D.

Hagar

Thus was on the page the OP quoted.

It should be noted that a taxable person is required if requested in writing to issue a VAT invoice in respect of a transaction with an unregistered person in the State who is entitled to a repayment of the VAT. A taxable person is not required to issue a VAT invoice to an unregistered person otherwise, but may do so if he or she so wishes. It should be noted that the use of this basis of accounting in no way removes from a VAT-registered trader his or her obligations as regards the issue of invoices and other documents, the maintenance of records, lodgement of returns etc..

1st Bold - How does the plumber know that you are not entitled to reclaim the VAT? Therefore he must issue an invoice on request if you state that you are going to apply for a repayment. I don't think he can refuse based on his guess as to whether or not the repayment will subsequently be granted. He is a plumber after all not a Revenue Commissioner.

2nd Bold - I think that shows he is obliged to issue you a normal invoice.

Dinarius

Hagar wrote:

1st Bold - How does the plumber know that you are not entitled to reclaim the VAT? Therefore he must issue an invoice on request if you state that you are going to apply for a repayment. I don't think he can refuse based on his guess as to whether or not the repayment will subsequently be granted. He is a plumber after all not a Revenue Commissioner.

He knows that I am registered for VAT as part of my work since he has worked for my business in the past. But, he also knows that this is my house and that I cannot reclaim the VAT for work on my home.

2nd Bold - I think that shows he is obliged to issue you a normal invoice.

I disagree. It does not state that an invoice must be issued to a registered person even when the work done cannot be claimed against, which is the case here. It says, "....with an unregistered person in the State who is entitled to a repayment of the VAT." What kind of person is that I wonder?

D.

rooferPete

Hi Dinarious,

Basically it is easier for book keeping to issue a receipt in the form of an invoice, that is to show the amount charged and the vat seperatly, added together being the total due / paid.

The person who is not registered but may recover the VAT element is in one case that I know of, Persons with Disabilities who have the work carried out or purchase goods to help with their disability can in many cases apply to the revenue for a refund of the VAT portion of the invoice.

The annoying part is they must first pay the invoice in total and then apply for the VAT refund, only in Ireland

.