McCartney Murder - One Year On

ghostdancer

Nuttzz wrote:

so how do you know adams isnt on the army council?

well the McCartney sisters allege that the IRA is covering up the murder, unless you now believe that they are british agents...

well if you'd bothered reading my post you'd know my reasons for that.

i don't see what kind of relevance that second comment has. i'm well aware of what they're alleging, and no, i don't believe they're british agents, thanks for that ridiculous commment.

Mighty_Mouse

Short and all as the thread is, I just don't have the interest to read it all. Did someone mention M&M's somewhere!!

The British government are using the murder of Robert McCartney to (metaphorically) beat SF

Jasus. Dont know about that but the sight of Unionists bleeding heart speeches for the plight of the McCartneys was slightly discomforting.

As for Gerry Adams, it think that Ed Maloneys book deals with that issue quite conclusively

Did it? Watch out for that word conslusively ....... tends to make out your stating FACT!. Anyways, I don't see the issue whether he was or wasn't.

Anyway this has noting to do with the FACT that Robert McCarthney was murdered, the FACT that a bar full of nationalist saw nothing, the FACT that this murder, carried out by members of the IRA, was covered up by members of the IRA or the FACT that intimidation by republicans drove the McCartney family out of the short strand.

I still don't see what all this has to do with SF.
Anyways the IRA no longer exists to give instructions to its members on whether they should or should not intimidate their neighbours!!

Now if only there was a police force republican/catholics/nationalists could trust currently in place as planned in the GFA <<for the scenario when the IRA folds up its tents.>>

that no witnesses saw anything?

Has happend in pubs all over Dublin and other major cities. I don't see what has to do with SF and republicanism in general.

same intelligence that alleges IRA involvement in the McCartney coverup.

ah now!! in fairness, it's fairly well accepted that it was IRA boys that killed Mr. McCartney!!! ..............<<not in much of a position to be telling people to check their facts if you ask me>>

If you actually are open minded and just have managed to exist without knowing SF are just the IRAs political front

Alright Sand, flip that open-minded comment back on yerself.
Would you be open-minded enough to accept that SF isn't just a political front for the IRA.
ie... that SF main objective is renunificatioin through peaceful means. Would you at least accept that the progress made in REpublicans in moving to a peaceful means has be pretty impressive. From "not a bullet", "tiochfaidh...." to the IRA is over, guns decommissioned etc etc .

I suppose a little balance in your pure hatred would be nice.

A Dub in Glasgo

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

I suppose a little balance in your pure hatred would be nice.

Hang on, we cannot have mass hysteria breaking out on boards if that comes to pass :eek:

Cork

ghostdancer wrote:

neither Sinn Féin nor the IRA killed Robert McCartney.

So, they were not involved in either the cover up or intimidation?

Would you at least accept that the progress made in REpublicans in moving to a peaceful means has be pretty impressive. From "not a bullet", "tiochfaidh...." to the IRA is over, guns decommissioned etc etc .

The IRA are a criminal and illegal organisation that have not gone away.

SF/IRA have not made enough progress unfortunately.

Mighty_Mouse

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Would you be open-minded enough to accept that SF isn't just a political front for the IRA.

If you want to be coldly clinical about it? I'd imagine most people would think that but most people can also see a determined effort over the last number of years to present one as separate to the other.
Thats a big ask in terms of convincing as most people didnt come down in the last shower.

ie... that SF main objective is renunificatioin through peaceful means. Would you at least accept that the progress made in REpublicans in moving to a peaceful means has be pretty impressive. From "not a bullet", "tiochfaidh...." to the IRA is over, guns decommissioned etc etc .

Oh theres no doubt that they had a major internal convincing job to do amongst their own members to go this road.
But the writing was on the wall really in terms of the IRA campaign, with the U.S on their backs,it being historicallysuch a cauldron of financial support.

Terrorism which is what most people would describe the IRA's activities as, would not have promoted SF politically.
The IRA Going back to Terrorism in those peoples eyes would without a doubt put immense pressure on SF politically and probably wipe them out in the south.
So in that respect,its difficult not to dilute the kudos for the road they took to peace as on the one hand , you have to say yes Thank God for that but on the other hand politically they had no choice.

Cork

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Anyways the IRA no longer exists to give instructions to its members on whether they should or should not intimidate their neighbours!!

Oh IRA members have discretion??

That surely gets SF/IRA off the hook.

Why does the IRA still exist?

When should we expect to see an end to IRA criminality?

Involvement in criminality must end before there is any political progress in the North.

Did Sf/IRA not suspend members in connection with the murder of Robert McCarney?

Have these individuals been re-admitted?

Sand

Alright Sand, flip that open-minded comment back on yerself.
Would you be open-minded enough to accept that SF isn't just a political front for the IRA.
ie... that SF main objective is renunificatioin through peaceful means. Would you at least accept that the progress made in REpublicans in moving to a peaceful means has be pretty impressive. From "not a bullet", "tiochfaidh...." to the IRA is over, guns decommissioned etc etc .

I suppose a little balance in your pure hatred would be nice.

Id be happy to entertain that notion if there was evidence to support it. I didnt just wake up one day and think badly of SFIRA. Years upon years of watching Adams refuse to condemn atrocities whilst harping on about any imagined slights to him or his wears you down.

Your argument for them being seperate is that SF allegedly pursues a peace strategy - as I understand it, that is the IRAs approved strategy. Theyve supposedly decommissioned and made public statements to that effect so if anything it highlights the fact its the same organisation with two different masks.

The progress made by the Provos in moving towards peaceful means is where they agreed to put aside the theological provo ****e about violence being the only solution, agreed to tone down the murdering of people and actually listened to the likes of John Hume who took the political risks of extending a hand to them. TBH, them doing whats expected of any law abiding group or individual isnt exactly an occassion for casting commemorative medals. Its people like John Hume who deserve plaudits, but hes already getting written out of the history books.

And SFIRA havent helped by breaking ceasefires, engaging in low intensity murders - like McCartneys - and punishment beatings, organised crime and repeated espionage which has contributed to the poisonous atmosphere in the North where any level of trust that existed at the signing of the GFA has long since vanished.

The peace proccess is over. The likes of the DUP arent going to get done like Trimble was done when he made the leap. And theres no grassroots Unionist push to change that. All that can be done from here is for SFIRA to spend the next 10-15 years moving towards normal democratic standards, disbanding the IRA and completely seperating itself -without confusion as in the latest IMC report - from criminal or subversive activity. This is proving unlikely as people seem more willing to lower standards than to ask SFIRA to meet them.

And no, they wouldnt deserve a round of applause for meeting the same standards as everyone else.

Cork

Sand wrote:

disbanding the IRA and completely seperating itself -without confusion as in the latest IMC report - from criminal or subversive activity. This is proving unlikely as people seem more willing to lower standards than to ask SFIRA to meet them.

The IRA is now itself the problem in holding up the Peace Process.

What is the SF leadership doing with regards to IRA criminality?

Precious little.

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

The peace proccess is over.

A lot of people would be very glad with that as it means they can say 'I told you so'. It ain't over yet.

Sand

A lot of people would be very glad with that as it means they can say 'I told you so'. It ain't over yet.

Ive already got plenty of grounds for saying "I told you so". I was told the DUP was gagging to do a deal in December 2004. Nope. I was told DUP would be gagging to do a deal after the last elections. Also nope. I was told the DUP would be gagging to do a deal after the IMC report. Again nope. In fact Ive heard a lot of overly optimistic predictions that have all proven to be wrong. I think its time for people to have a realistic appraisal of the current state of the peace proccess.

SFIRA cant return to terrorism at this stage, but its at least a decade and more away from becoming a legitimate political party, as opposed to a terrorist organisation. Currently it seems to think it can be both. The GFA is built on mutual trust. The rise of the DUP and SFIRA electorally has come from that trust being undermined, and the moderates who were seen to be hoodwinked by the other side (Trimbles UUP and the SDLP to a lesser extent) have been punished by the voters. For any deal to work, the DUP leadership would have to be able to trust SFIRA is not going to embarass them by either failing to live up to its commitments, or some job on the side. And no, rightly or wrongly no one is going to believe that any bank robbery, murder coverup or organised criminal enterprise carried out by SFIRA members is somehow wholly seperate to the organisation.

Hence, even one screwup by SFIRA would lead to another collapse of the institutions and the electoral slaughter of any DUP moderates who dared to hope they could trust SFIRA. So until you can feel 100% confident that no SFIRA members will get anything more serious than a drink driving conviction, no viable deal is possible. The other alternative is that SFIRA co-operates fully in criminal investigations with the PSNI if SFIRA members are involved in crime. The McCartney case has demonstrated that were a long, long, long way from that. If SFIRA say they cant trust the PSNI, why do they think the DUP trust them any farther?

If you were Paisley, would you rush to trust SFIRA after what happened to Trimble? Why should he? The chance for a deal has been squandered long ago. Its going to take another 10 years of consistent progress on the part of SFIRA before another deal is possible.

ghostdancer

Cork wrote:

So, they were not involved in either the cover up or intimidation?

allegedly they were yes, not that i ever claimed that they weren't. :rolleyes: