Why are so many non-nationals killed on our roads?

Seth Brundle

Automan wrote:

I was under the impression that it is illegal to overtake in Ireland in a LHD car.

So what happens if you drive a Mclaren F1? Can you overtake or not? :rolleyes:

samo

Stekelly wrote:

At the end of the day, unless foreign registered cars are caught doingsomething there is notheing the gards can do. Say a child is knocked down and killed by a latvian reg car, and a witness gets the reg , what can the gards do other than keep an eye out for the car? they have no way of tracing it. A strick enforcement of the import laws should be brought in with any car here longer than the alloted time frame be impounded until the car is re-registered and atx etc payed.

Totally agree with that, was only talking about this last night and am surprised (well I'm not but I am! :rolleyes: ) that this isnt something thats already bein done, given that our government being loathe to miss out on potential taxes is out of pocket for road tax for all these vehicles and also the potential minefield re insurance etc.

Drax

Automan wrote:

I was under the impression that it is illegal to overtake in Ireland in a LHD car.

And you call yourself Automan ...

ambro25

That's for 'automatic man', not 'automobile man'

Seriously, though. I clicked on the thread and I honestly believed the opening post was a troll. Then i read the rest of the thread and... guess what? It sure turned out to be :rolleyes:

RobEire wrote:

crap drivers is probably the answer. standards for passing drivers tests differ from country to country.

fjon wrote:

But they are driving in a country where anyone can get into a car and drive without ever having done a driving test or had a driving lesson...

Jumpy wrote:

One word. Alcohol.

LHD, RHD have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Nor should all non-nationals be painted by the same (tarred) brush (before being feathered, of course): dare I suggest, as a 'non-national' (who's been driving in some 20-odd countries, big onces, small ones and on many continents), that there's a sh1t of a long way to go before (IE) 'nationals' can consider themselves so superior in all things road manner and road competence -related that they feel entitled to pass judgement on any driver of any other nationality? :mad:

Rarely have I seen posts that have made me think so much about a comparison of recipients involving a particularly dark shade of grey. I mean, for such a religious country... wasn't there some quote in the Bible about "thy neighbour's eye" and all that? :rolleyes:

Automan

Automan wrote:

I was under the impression that it is illegal to overtake in Ireland in a LHD car.

Well until now this was my impression, thanks to everybody for the feedback, unlike some people I have no problem with being wrong, I am human after all.;)

fjon

ambro25 wrote:

fjon wrote:

But they are driving in a country where anyone can get into a car and drive without ever having done a driving test or had a driving lesson...

I was actually referring to Ireland when I said that.

I know Irish drivers are far from perfect, and I would never pass judgement on someone else unless I had something to back it up.
However, the fact is that 16% of road deaths on Irish roads last month were non-national. There is no way way in hell that the non-national population in Ireland is anywhere near 16% I was just wondering if this was coincidence, or whether there was another reason for it. And I'm starting to believe the latter is correct.

Seth Brundle

fjon wrote:

I was actually referring to Ireland when I said that.

I know Irish drivers are far from perfect, and I would never pass judgement on someone else unless I had something to back it up.
However, the fact is that 16% of road deaths on Irish roads last month were non-national. There is no way way in hell that the non-national population in Ireland is anywhere near 16% I was just wondering if this was coincidence, or whether there was another reason for it. And I'm starting to believe the latter is correct.

The stats, unfortunate as they are reflect one month only. What were the stats of Nationals Vs Non-Nationals for 2003, 2004 and 2005?

IDMUD

Eastern european countries have less difficult drivers tests compared to ireland, just as the western euro countries have way, way more strict (and hence better drivers) than irish ones.

Some are worse, some are much better.

MrPudding

Stekelly wrote:

Thats ok so, as long as they dont go ove rtheir alloted law breaking. What difference does what our own do. There were 50 odd murders here last year, does that entitled 2 northern Irish people to a free murder each?

That's not what I meant and I reckon we both know it. I was simply pointing out that as usual it seems that when it comes to Irish drivers the problems are always with someone else, be it northie or latvians.

Stekelly wrote:

At the end of the day, unless foreign registered cars are caught doingsomething there is notheing the gards can do.

So catch them. :rolleyes: Get out on the roads and catch people.

Stekelly wrote:

Say a child is knocked down and killed by a latvian reg car, and a witness gets the reg , what can the gards do other than keep an eye out for the car? they have no way of tracing it. A strick enforcement of the import laws should be brought in with any car here longer than the alloted time frame be impounded until the car is re-registered and atx etc payed.

Sorry I forgot that Ireland is the only country on the planet where people drive cars with foreign plates. Shame really. If only there was another country somehwere in the world where there was drivers with unresistered cars, we could have asked them how they deal with it.

The probelm here is not with non-national drivers and their cars IMO. The problem is with the guards having neither the tools or the will to do anything about it.

Seriously, if a non-national did a smash and grab on a donut shop and the only thing the cops had to go on I do not doubt they would find them.

I have said this before, having a non Irish reg does not give a driver diplomatic immunity as some posters seem to think. I refuse to believe the cops are as powerless as they claim to be. This country is a bit of a joke but if someone came get away with murder, as Stekelly suggests, simply because they have a foreign reg on their car then it is a bit more of a joke than I thought.

MrP

Carb

MrPudding wrote:

That's not what I meant and I reckon we both know it. I was simply pointing out that as usual it seems that when it comes to Irish drivers the problems are always with someone else, be it northie or latvians.
MrP

Jesus, talk about a sensitive bunch. Perhaps it says it all about Irish drivers that my joke about northern drivers stirs up huge debate, while the fact that somebody can go past me at twice the speed limit on my left hand side, and not one comment was made regarding this. TBH, if the guy had rear ended me at this speed with my three month old son in the back of the car, the colour of the number plate would have been the least of my worries.

I'm well aware that most Northern drivers are perfectly good drivers, you only have to drive in the North for a while to realise this. It's some of the antics south of the border, by a minority that get up my nose. I would suggest anyone that wishes to form an opinion on this should come live in a border area for a while, then their comments may have some level of accuracy to them.

spockety

From elsewhere (a bike crowd) :

"Did the gap on Sunday morning with the BMW crowd. Was good fun but
not exactly the fastest spin due to the cold weather. Anyway, about
50 bikes at least turned up in Laragh where everyone had a free
breakfast thanks to Joe Duffy
Amongst the group of bikes in Laragh was a red 05D Ducati 999 in
mint condition. The guy had left before I did and headed along the
normal route home.
Along the N81 3 Latvian young lads in a white Nissan Sunny were
travelling south from Dublin(towards Hollywood) as the 999 was
heading North towards Dublin.
The car decided to randomly turn around by doing a HANDBREAK turn in
the middle of the ****in road. The 999 tried to avoid it but PLOWED
into the back of the car leaving a massave dent in the car and the
front end of the 999 DESTROYED!
The rider went off to hospital with "injurys" and the bike was fit
for the scrap yard. Front forks bent, disks forced in and broken,
front wheel ****ed, mirror about 100ft down the road, clocks about a
foot further forward than they should have been etc. Horrible site
Oh yeah, forgot to mention the guys in the car had NO insurance or
tax
so not the best end to a good spin"

Guy:Incognito

MrPudding wrote:

Sorry I forgot that Ireland is the only country on the planet where people drive cars with foreign plates. Shame really. If only there was another country somehwere in the world where there was drivers with unresistered cars, we could have asked them how they deal with it.

The probelm here is not with non-national drivers and their cars IMO. The problem is with the guards having neither the tools or the will to do anything about it.

Seriously, if a non-national did a smash and grab on a donut shop and the only thing the cops had to go on I do not doubt they would find them.

Again, what have other countries got to do with OUR problem. TBH other countries dont let people away with driving around the way we do.

As far as cathching people doing things, you do realise that crime happens all over the woorld? It's not like the gards activly encourage crime. Short of assigning every person in the country their own 24hr garda escort, they can not be around for most crimes when they are commited. They do patrols so it's a case of happening upon a crime at the right time.

MrPudding wrote:

I have said this before, having a non Irish reg does not give a driver diplomatic immunity as some posters seem to think. I refuse to believe the cops are as powerless as they claim to be. This country is a bit of a joke but if someone came get away with murder, as Stekelly suggests, simply because they have a foreign reg on their car then it is a bit more of a joke than I thought.

MrP

How would you propose tracking down a latvian reg car?The fact is, they are registered with no one in this country so theres precious little a gard can do to find it.

mb1197

So which foreign drivers are the worst do you think?

MrPudding

luckat wrote:

The only way to stop drink driving is to make it the law that *no* drink can be taken before driving - and enforce it.

The second half is right. The first half is overkill. No additional rules or laws are required. Just enforece the ones we already have.

MrP

Seth Brundle

Carb wrote:

the fact that somebody can go past me at twice the speed limit on my left hand side, and not one comment was made regarding this.

OK then - why did someone need/want to undertake you? Had you a valid reason for occupying the overtaking lane (bearing in mind that the speeding driver must have had some space ahead of him if he was going that fast!)?

Carb wrote:

It's some of the antics south of the border, by a minority that get up my nose. I would suggest anyone that wishes to form an opinion on this should come live in a border area for a while, then their comments may have some level of accuracy to them.

And there isn't similar antics by RoI registered cars on the Northern side?

mb1197 wrote:

So which foreign drivers are the worst do you think?

All of them. Lets form a possee and hunt them all out, the drunken feckers.

MrPudding

Stekelly wrote:

Again, what have other countries got to do with OUR problem. TBH other countries dont let people away with driving around the way we do.

Are you intentionally reducing your IQ in order to completly miss my point? What I was trying to say was other countries have the same problems as us. How do they deal with them? Do you understand now? Do you think the cops in France give people diplomatic immunity simply because they have a different number plate?

Stekelly wrote:

As far as cathching people doing things, you do realise that crime happens all over the woorld? It's not like the gards activly encourage crime. Short of assigning every person in the country their own 24hr garda escort, they can not be around for most crimes when they are commited. They do patrols so it's a case of happening upon a crime at the right time.

Wow really. Crime happens all over the world? Who would have thunk it? Again, my point was we don't have to reinvent the wheel here. This stuff is new to us, we are an island that until recently didn't see many foreign reg plates. If we look to other countries that have multple land borders we may be able to learn something.

Stekelly wrote:

How would you propose tracking down a latvian reg car?The fact is, they are registered with no one in this country so theres precious little a gard can do to find it.

How the fcuk should I know? I don't expect the cops to know how to set up an EMC SAN or install Netbackup, in return I ask they they don't expect me to know how to do their job. So far it is working out nicely for me. It is not up to me to tell them how to do their job. If they can't be arsed doing their job then someone should kick their arse. If they don't have the tools they need to do their job then they should kick someone's arse.

If someone thinks they will get away with a certain behaviour because the people that should be stopping them from doing it can't or won't then human nature will dictate that they will continue with the behaviour until such times as it becomes clear they run a risk of not getting away with it anymore.

Carb wrote:

Jesus, talk about a sensitive bunch. Perhaps it says it all about Irish drivers that my joke about northern drivers stirs up huge debate,

I wouldn't say sensitive per se. Just fed up with perfect southern drivers only able to see law breaking when there is a northie plate.

Carb wrote:

It's some of the antics south of the border, by a minority that get up my nose. I would suggest anyone that wishes to form an opinion on this should come live in a border area for a while, then their comments may have some level of accuracy to them.

It's seems to be a little known fact that a lot of southern driver behave in a remarkably similar way north of the border.

I am not saying northie drivers are perfect, far from it, I am simply pointing out that anytime this subject comes up it is like the only traffic laws broken in this country are broken by northies.

TempestSabre

Basically you can drive over here in any old heap and no licence tax or insurance, and no ability to drive. The odds of being caught as so low.

Carb

kbannon wrote:

OK then - why did someone need/want to undertake you? Had you a valid reason for occupying the overtaking lane (bearing in mind that the speeding driver must have had some space ahead of him if he was going that fast!)?

And there isn't similar antics by RoI registered cars on the Northern side?


All of them. Lets form a possee and hunt them all out, the drunken feckers.

Perhaps if you had a memory that lasted longer than 24hrs, you may recall that I said he went up the hard shoulder. We don't all have the luxuries of motorways and dual carriage ways you know.

Glad to see though, that if there was two lanes that its perfectly ok to do that sort of speed. Have you been driving north of the border lately??:D

Seth Brundle

ok then my bad on the overtaking lane.
Where though did I say it was fine to do those speeds?
I have been driving north of the border frequently for the last 15 or so years. I know what drivers are like on both sides!

Carb

MrPudding wrote:

I wouldn't say sensitive per se. Just fed up with perfect southern drivers only able to see law breaking when there is a northie plate.

It's seems to be a little known fact that a lot of southern driver behave in a remarkably similar way north of the border.

I am not saying northie drivers are perfect, far from it, I am simply pointing out that anytime this subject comes up it is like the only traffic laws broken in this country are broken by northies.

I think there's a distinction between bad driving and dangerous driving. Northern drivers think we're bad drivers, English people think we're bad drivers,
and to a large extent they're correct. I'm talking about dangerous driving, like the incident I metioned, or like the time a car came flying through the toll booth behind me before the barrier came down to avoid paying, or the car that passed out a tail back of about 20 cars completely on the wrong side of the road going over a hill, or been nearly forced of a congested road by two cars racing. I'm sorry, but I've yet to see a southern reg car do any of the above north or south of the border. Not indicating, or not knowing how to drive around a roundabout are hardly the same.

Seth Brundle

Carb wrote:

I think there's a distinction between bad driving and dangerous driving. Northern drivers think we're bad drivers, English people think we're bad drivers,
and to a large extent they're correct. I'm talking about dangerous driving, like the incident I metioned, or like the time a car came flying through the toll booth behind me before the barrier came down to avoid paying, or the car that passed out a tail back of about 20 cars completely on the wrong side of the road going over a hill, or been nearly forced of a congested road by two cars racing. I'm sorry, but I've yet to see a southern reg car do any of the above north or south of the border. Not indicating, or not knowing how to drive around a roundabout are hardly the same.

Irish drivers are bad drivers - they are terrible.
However, dangerous driving occurs everywhere by all nationalities. I have seen the most stupid and dangerous overtaking ever in France not Ireland. Whilst there a few years back i witnessed something like four accidents (I had no part at all in them ).
However, I do believe that Irish drivers are becomming more and more dangerous. The increase in breaking red lights etc will continue so that we are the most dangerous in Europe until there is proper enforcement.

MrPudding

kbannon wrote:

Irish drivers are bad drivers - they are terrible.
However, dangerous driving occurs everywhere by all nationalities. I have seen the most stupid and dangerous overtaking ever in France not Ireland. Whilst there a few years back i witnessed something like four accidents (I had no part at all in them ).
However, I do believe that Irish drivers are becomming more and more dangerous. The increase in breaking red lights etc will continue so that we are the most dangerous in Europe until there is proper enforcement.

I have to agree with you for the most part, France can be a bit mad.

With regards to Irish drivers, at best there is a very very fine line between bad driving and dangerous driving. A lot of the bad stuff that Irish drivers also happens to be pretty dangerous. My pet hate is running red lights. I live in the North for 27 years and in that time you could literally count the number of times I saw red lights jumped on one hand. How often do you see reds being jumped here?

As for the other things you mention Carb, with the exception of the toll jumping (which I have never seen done by anyone) I have seen them all been done by Irish drivers. All the time and every day.

Don't even start me on drink driving, it's like it's the nations god given right to get smashed and then drive.

Again, let me say I am not denying that drivers from the north can be bad and even dangerous, I know they can. It just seems that some people, Carb for example, are in complete denial when it comes to dangerous behaviour of southern drivers. It seems to be a lack of willingness to take responsibility which can be seen all accross Irish society. It's always someone elses fault or someone else can deal with it.

MrP

MrPudding

Stekelly wrote:

How would you propose tracking down a latvian reg car?The fact is, they are registered with no one in this country so theres precious little a gard can do to find it.

This is kind of funny:

http://www.epcplc.com/uk/home/index.html

It seems that a private company can track down foreign cars but our own police force can't! I know there are a lot of countires not served by this company but it does show that where there is a will there is a way.

[EDIT]

Already being used in Ireland:

Ireland

Bundoran Town Council Parking
Dundalk Urban District Council Parking
Kells Town Council Parking
Letterkenny Urban District Council Parking
Louth County Council Parking
Monaghan Town Council Parking
Sligo Corporation Parking

http://www.epcplc.com/uk/clients/index.html


MrP

Alun

Well, I suppose that although you could track down the registered owner and get their home adress, you wouldn't necessarily be able to easily track them down here in Ireland.

MrPudding

Alun wrote:

Well, I suppose that although you could track down the registered owner and get their home adress, you wouldn't necessarily be able to easily track them down here in Ireland.

Possibly not but you would at least be able to send correspondence to their registered address.

My point is that it is possible to trace cars accross borders. That is a first step. I also don't see why there is a problem tracking unregistered cars here. If they don't have the tools to do then then they should get them.

If the problem is as big the the commisioner (and some posters here) thinks it is then why is nothing being done about it? We have seen how quickly the government can pass legislation when it wants to. If this really is a problem and there was a will to do it it could be sorted.

Are the guards actually lobbying for the powers they need to address this or are they happy to whine like bitches and use it as an excuse for not even attempting to do their job?

MrP

Carb

MrPudding wrote:

I have to agree with you for the most part, France can be a bit mad.

With regards to Irish drivers, at best there is a very very fine line between bad driving and dangerous driving. A lot of the bad stuff that Irish drivers also happens to be pretty dangerous. My pet hate is running red lights. I live in the North for 27 years and in that time you could literally count the number of times I saw red lights jumped on one hand. How often do you see reds being jumped here?

As for the other things you mention Carb, with the exception of the toll jumping (which I have never seen done by anyone) I have seen them all been done by Irish drivers. All the time and every day.

Don't even start me on drink driving, it's like it's the nations god given right to get smashed and then drive.

Again, let me say I am not denying that drivers from the north can be bad and even dangerous, I know they can. It just seems that some people, Carb for example, are in complete denial when it comes to dangerous behaviour of southern drivers. It seems to be a lack of willingness to take responsibility which can be seen all accross Irish society. It's always someone elses fault or someone else can deal with it.

MrP

Could you please point out exactly where I denied that Southern drivers can drive dangerously. What I said was that I've yet to SEE any Southern cars doing the things I mentioned, and if you happen to see these things done everyday, well then I'd hate to be driving where you're driving.

The Guards are also on record as stating that there is a problem with dangerous driving of some Northern drivers in the border areas. This doesn't mean that they're in denial about the the dangerous driving of Southern registered cars.

I've even pointed out that I know that a lot of Northern drivers are good drivers, which is something you haven't said about Southern drivers. I think tarring everyone with the one brush has been mentioned a couple of times at this stage.

PS: Running a red light, however wrong and dangerous, is hardly in the same league as two cars racing on a main road in the middle of the afternoon.

Seth Brundle

Carb wrote:

PS: Running a red light, however wrong and dangerous, is hardly in the same league as two cars racing on a main road in the middle of the afternoon.

why not? people breaking red lights tend to do so at speed and can be passing the light seconds after the change.
The two are dangerous and if you persist in these activities will sooner or later result in a nasty accident.

Carb

kbannon wrote:

why not? people breaking red lights tend to do so at speed and can be passing the light seconds after the change.
The two are dangerous and if you persist in these activities will sooner or later result in a nasty accident.

Do I seriously have to explain this. Traffic lights are mostly in built up areas with speed limitis of 50kph. You run a red light at the speed limit, (bearing in mind that in a built up area you can't really go faster than this) and T-bone somebody else, meaning quite a bad accident. On the other hand, two cars racing each other at 140kph on a main road. One pulls out and hits an oncoming car travelling at 100kph. If you had to choose, which accident would you prefer to be in?

Seth Brundle

Carb wrote:

Traffic lights are mostly in built up areas with speed limitis of 50kph. You run a red light at the speed limit, (bearing in mind that in a built up area you can't really go faster than this) and T-bone somebody else, meaning quite a bad accident. On the other hand, two cars racing each other at 140kph on a main road. One pulls out and hits an oncoming car travelling at 100kph. If you had to choose, which accident would you prefer to be in?

There are a number of things here.
#1 given that traffic lights are in built up areas, then there is an increased likleihood of cyclists, pedestrians and other road users.
#2 you refer to running a red light at the speed limit. The crux of the problem is that most people breaking red lights are not driving at the speed limit. In fact I would hazard a guess that their speed is often more like 80kmph than 50kms. Also on other roads with a higher speed limit they tend to be going proportionally faster.
#3 you refer to two cars racing @ 140kmph on a main road - this occurs in every country? Where were the drivers from? What did you do about it?
#4 which incident [they are not accidents!] would I prefer to be involved in? You would need to rephrase that to ask where I would be in the scenario. Would I be the pedestrian hit at 70 or 80kmph? Would I like to be the motorcyclist thrown high into the air because some dip**** was in a hurry?
I wouldn't like to be in either incident though but if forced to choose, I think instant death has its advantages!

Carb

kbannon wrote:

There are a number of things here.
#1 given that traffic lights are in built up areas, then there is an increased likleihood of cyclists, pedestrians and other road users.
#2 you refer to running a red light at the speed limit. The crux of the problem is that most people breaking red lights are not driving at the speed limit. In fact I would hazard a guess that their speed is often more like 80kmph than 50kms. Also on other roads with a higher speed limit they tend to be going proportionally faster.
#3 you refer to two cars racing @ 140kmph on a main road - this occurs in every country? Where were the drivers from? What did you do about it?
#4 which incident [they are not accidents!] would I prefer to be involved in? You would need to rephrase that to ask where I would be in the scenario. Would I be the pedestrian hit at 70 or 80kmph? Would I like to be the motorcyclist thrown high into the air because some dip**** was in a hurry?
I wouldn't like to be in either incident though but if forced to choose, I think instant death has its advantages!

You could have just wrote that your problem isn't breaking red lights, its speeding