Why are so many non-nationals killed on our roads?

el tel

mike65 wrote:

According to Pat Kennys programme this morning 30% of non nationals who crash DO NOT HAVE insurance, the general uninsured population is 6% (which is a flipping scandal in itself with the disk system in place).

Mike.

I would assume that 'general uninsured population 6%' is inclusive of non nationals? I think it would be interesting to know how many of those non nationals have a valid driving licence or qualification let alone insurance. From the posts below it would seem that it's very difficult to know if any person is properly insured or not so if some emphasis was put on the simpler task of weeding out improperly or unlicenced drivers then the number of accidents among foreign nationals might decrease.

eth0_

ambro25 wrote:

Some great Christian you make, taking delight in others' plight.

Erm... (i) given the choice, I wouldn't actually live here, and (ii) see above & cop on some

I'm not a Christian and who said anything about delight? It's satisfying to see law breakers get retribution.

If you hate Ireland why do you live here? You have some chip on your shoulder!

As for checking my facts, if you gave the right details '12 months as UK law applied ('93 to '96)' in the first place....talk about clutching at straws.

Big Nelly

ambro25 wrote:

No. Although I am a bit uncomfortable with replacing the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" with "guilty until proven innocent". But that's just me, mind. I think you'll also find that EU laws will have something to say about the matter.

I fyou know so much about Europe you should know that a few countries includng France if I am not wrong have the policy that your "guilty until proven innocent" and anyway if your coming into this country legal with a legal car what have you got to hide?

ambro25 wrote:

Hopefully I'm a good and experimented enough driver that I'll be able to take appropriate action to avoid that. (I've grown some extra pairs of eyes since moving to Dublin, after some years spent driving in Paris and London - and not on account of LV/LT drivers either, mind ). And if unfortunately enough it comes to that, I suppose I'll have a bit of a rant, as expected, but if I can have that rant, it means I'll be thankfull I've still got my health.

Well we all think we are great drivers but most are not. Im not even going to start if I am a good driver or not. This is not what this thread is about.

If you have grown these extra set of eyes then maybe use them to read the laws

You have driven all over europe? prob with no tax and insurance in each region.

ambro25 wrote:

There's a bit of perspective Irish (well, those of the 'Big Nelly' type ) seem to lack, and I put that down to insularism. It's not a criticism, just the fact that there is no real transborder traffic to the extent that there is on the Continent, because this is an Island after all. So in that context, read insularism as 'lack of experience of foreign drivers/driving'.

How do you know what I am like? if you like non-nationals killing people on the road then there is something wrong with you

ambro25

eth0_ wrote:

I'm not a Christian and who said anything about delight? It's satisfying to see law breakers get retribution.

Manner of speech. Best let it lie. Where's my retribution for the 'tards who have degraded and/or stolen from my personal property (car/garden/etc.) in the last year? I'd rather Gardai bothered about (real) crime than too busy chasing for a few more drops in the tax/revenue ocean, tbh. Not that this comment doesn't apply universally, of course.

eth0_ wrote:

If you hate Ireland why do you live here?

I don't hate Ireland, where have I stated or even suggested that? I live here because of professional commitments. I do however hate opinionated bigots who are too narrow-minded to develop their own thougths and are happy ingurgitating whatever the media/the Interweb serves daily.

eth0_ wrote:

You have some chip on your shoulder!

[checks shoulders, then asks in utter wonderment-] How does a chip on the shoulder relate to living in Ireland? Don't quite follow your logic there, boss, sorry. By the tone of your earlier posts, better check yours an'all

eth0_ wrote:

As for checking my facts, if you gave the right details '12 months as UK law applied ('93 to '96)' in the first place....talk about clutching at straws.

Pot/kettle/dark shade of grey, tbh: you inferred/guessed everything from my earlier post, that suited your subsequent ranting post, without first asking me for any precisions (such as Ando did, for example), if you were so bothered about it. Which precisions I would gladly have supplied (and have done).

Is that an apology I hear?

ambro25

Dear oh dear oh dear... :rolleyes:

Big Nelly wrote:

I fyou know so much about Europe you should know that a few countries includng France if I am not wrong have the policy that your "guilty until proven innocent" and anyway if your coming into this country legal with a legal car what have you got to hide?

I haven't got anything to hide. Check my posts and see for yourself. If you're so bothered about anything I've posted, just ask. That's not so hard now, is it?

Big Nelly wrote:

If you have grown these extra set of eyes then maybe use them to read the laws. You have driven all over europe? prob with no tax and insurance in each region.

You're starting to infer/guess a lot, just like eth0_ here. Better stop now, or you'll soon have me responsible for drawing and publishing certain famous cartoons

The reason why I know about Europe (-an laws relating to car/driving, etc.) is indeed because I've rolled my stone around Europe a lot. Some posters here would be well advised to do same before posting. And which is incidentally why I believe I'm in a reasonable position to comment on the issue of nationals/non-nationals driving (it doesn't just happen in Ireland, you know ).

Big Nelly wrote:

How do you know what I am like? if you like non-nationals killing people on the road then there is something wrong with you

Well, the portion of my post which you quoted for that wasn't directed at you personally. But if it echoes with you and causes you bother, then there must be a sensitive cord there somewhere, and therefore a bit of truth, no?

You really should read my posts, before ranting/raving, placing words in my mouth and making a fool of yourself.

blastman

el tel wrote:

I think it would be interesting to know how many of those non nationals have a valid driving licence or qualification let alone insurance.

To see if it's higher than the oft-quoted figure of 20% of Irish drivers being on provisionals, you mean? Yeah, that would be interesting....

el tel

blastman wrote:

To see if it's higher than the oft-quoted figure of 20% of Irish drivers being on provisionals, you mean? Yeah, that would be interesting....

Exactly! That's why I'm all for weeding out improperly or unlicenced drivers irrespective of nationality. They are tantamount to being uninsured but are likely to be more easily identifiable at a vehicle checkpoint (assuming that everyone is required to carry a licence at all times)

ambro25

el tel wrote:

Exactly! That's why I'm all for weeding out improperly or unlicenced drivers irrespective of nationality.

Same here. But are you including unaccompanied drivers on provisionals? That'd make an awful lot of space on roads

Big Nelly

ambro25 wrote:

Dear oh dear oh dear... :rolleyes:


Well, the portion of my post which you quoted for that wasn't directed at you personally. But if it echoes with you and causes you bother, then there must be a sensitive cord there somewhere, and therefore a bit of truth, no?

You really should read my posts, before ranting/raving, placing words in my mouth and making a fool of yourself.

Who is ranting? Im laughing at you! only fool around here is you! I read your post and all I can make out is blah blah blah. This is a subject about non-nationals not about you or me so if you could keep from directling anything at me personally that would be great! now go along and have a rant at someone else on here because of course you are always right, a great driver and know the laws of every country in Europe because at some stage you drove thru them:rolleyes: how do you know I haven't drove in Europe? or maybe your the only person in Ireland that has drove a car outside Ireland....lmao......can your head grow any bigger?

el tel

Big Nelly wrote:

This is a subject about non-nationals not about you or me

With all due respect, AFAIK Ambro25 is a non-national and is a 'legal beagle' so probably quite qualified to post on such a thread as this.

ambro25

Big Nelly wrote:

Who is ranting? Im laughing at you! only fool around here is you! I read your post and all I can make out is blah blah blah.

I can't exactly have an informed discussion with someone who doesn't bother reading my posts, now, can I? I did give you the courtesy of reading yours, however, and...

Big Nelly wrote:

This is a subject about non-nationals not about you or me so if you could keep from directling anything at me personally that would be great!

...I haven't been directing any posts 'at you personally' (save for my replies to your posts 'targeted' at me) - you are the poster who's been at me ever since I requested that not all 'non-nationals' be tarred with the same brush, and provided some arguments to support the request. That said, I'll be quite happy to quit replying to you when you decide to do the same, m8.

Big Nelly wrote:

now go along and (... ) bigger?

Quod Erat Demonstrandum, tbh

All I take from this thread so far, putting aside that spat with BN & eth0_, is
(i) that Gardai are under-equipped/under-funded (one and the same thing) to keep tabs on non-national cars and drivers circulating in-country,
(ii) those same non-national cars and drivers circulating in-country are a national menace and therefore a national priority, and
(iii) "look-at-them-foreigners-how-come-they-can-drive-metal-now-that-I-just-might-be-able-to-afford-in-20-years".

If all anyone here is really bothered about is the equity of the situation (non-nationals to pay road tax, insurance, etc), Ill just say fool-you because there are much bigger issues to tackle where transport is concerned in Ireland: you would be counting the leaves on the tree and not quite appreciating the forest that it's part of.

Now I'm ranting:

Drink driving is still endemic. It was before the Celtic Tiger, during the Celtic Tiger, and it still is. So before the 'mass influx' of non-nationals, and since. Of course, some of those will not help themselves (i.e. with being ostracised) by practicing the local custom (or importing theirs? same-o, tbh).

Driver awareness campaigns and downright basic education is appalling. That provisional license system is an absolute disgrace: how can any governement/legal system justify placing someone at the helm of a ton of metal under way with no requirement of any formal training? The only reason why the road record is not worse, I put down to the population size: if there were 50 or 60 milion Irish, road death toll would be closer to India or the like, in proportion.

Car ownership and general running costs are astronomical. I thought the UK was worst for a long time. I'm more than happy to drive my IE car back to (mainland) England every so often for servicing. At least I'm sure of the work and I get value-for-money and satisfactory to outstanding service levels. With a free courtesy car. €1500 quoted for a 60k mile service on an Impreza here. £300 for the exact same service back in the UK. Who's taking the p1ss? €1100 insurance quoted for a '98 car here, a year after paying under £400 for the exact same (actually a better 'safer' living area in Dublin than comparably in UK where the car was before), with no points/claims/full-max-achievable NCB maintained in-between.

Road surface and network is disgraceful, after 10 years of economical boom and coffers full of national and EU cash. Given the size of the country, Ireland should be a world showcase in the subject, not a red lantern. I mean Dublin-Galway in 3 hours on a good run? FFS!

So, there's my chip - what's yours? And don't give the usual 'well why don't you f*ck off back where you came from?' I'd like nothing more than for the above to be solved! But if the nationals won't help themselves about the problem, and as a fully-fledged full-rate IE taxpayer myself, why the f*ck couldn't I have a good comparison with places that I have personal knowledge and experience of, and rant at it (and back at those that are happy finger-pointing but being reamed all the same)? It's my tax money also that's being mis-spent. That's why I'm not so hot and bothered about grabbing some more thousands in VRT and road tax from 'non-nationals' (IE insurers can take a long running jump in the Liffey for all I care), even though I do pay mine: Governement looks like it's doing OK from here out of me - as an IE motorist, I ain't.

So the question is: 'Why are so many non-nationals being killed on our roads' ? Answer's simple: no more of them than there are Irish being killed on our roads. That anyone at all should die on the roads is disgraceful enough, but I can't condone finger-pointing 'non-nationals' as a convenient excuse when there are just so very many other factors, such as those I've just ranted about, that contribute to it all. If you don't like to hear it, don't read/don't post about it.

EDIT PS - that does not mean that I agree with translating IE rules of road in Polish or any other such nonsense. Call me reactionary, but if 'they' come here (as I did, as any other 'non-national' does), the least 'they' can do is learn to read and converse in the lingo, read up on local law and abide by same. And then don't give lip when they get racial/xenophobe abuse either (yep, in 2006 still), because that just aggravates things generally. That has always been my stance. In any country in which I have ever lived.

el tel

ambro25 wrote:

Road surface and network is disgraceful, after 10 years of economical boom and coffers full of national and EU cash. Given the size of the country, Ireland should be a world showcase in the subject, not a red lantern. I mean Dublin-Galway in 3 hours on a good run? FFS!

Well said & 100% agreed.

Ireland, given it's small size, small population, a budget surplus of €6.7 billion and all the immigrant workers on government contracted projects that we are happy to exploit, should be a showcase in every fúcking department.

LFCFan

el tel wrote:

Well said & 100% agreed.

Ireland, given it's small size, small population, a budget surplus of €6.7 billion and all the immigrant workers on government contracted projects that we are happy to exploit, should be a showcase in every fúcking department.

To say the current government has under achieved with the resources they have had would be the understatement of the millenium. In this country we have no Extreme weather, no earthquakes, no extreme tracts of mountainous regions and a relatively small population compared to the size of the country and despite all this and all the money that has been available, nearly every department under control of the state is a mess. Roads, Telecoms (not under control now but it was them that sold it off), health, schools etc etc. This government seems unable to manage even the simplest of tasks and have to take blame for some of the road deaths. Everything that gets thrown at them they fail at. They should be ashamed of themselves.

mike65

I'm going to be a spoilsport and close this as no new pertinant points can be added really but alot of ranting can. If someone really has a new angle on the topic feel free to start a fresh thread.

Mike.