The Danish Cartoon - pretext to war?? !!??

Captain Trips

What do people think of this Danish cartoon "scandal" (for want of a better word)?

to fill you in, a while ago, a Danish paper printed a sarcastic cartoon of Muhammad. That then caused outrage, etc., . Especially so, it's mentioned in a lot of articles that they were burning flags in Damascus, EU offices in Gaza were occupied, Saudi and Libya withdrew envoys briefly and so on.

This was months ago maybe, heck I can't even remember when except thinking that obviously it was on the heels of the French Riots and so on. But over the past few days it's back in the news a lot and online on Google News, there's almost 900 news links regarding it today - which is headline news if anything by Google standards.

So basically, the Welt (Germany), Soir (France), La Stampa (Italy) and some Spanish newspapers I didn't hear of before have reprinted the "offensive" cartoons, claiming a right to caricature (well that's what Soir said).

So, what does this new found unity mean for Europe? That we are all now looked upon as evil and shall suffer wrath of those doing God's work (the terrorists? George Bush? So many doing God's work...) and so on.

Is Merkel doing this? She is a neocon in her beliefs regarding social cohesion and business. DO wars start on stupid things like a cartoon? If anything, I do believe that the newspapers can print what they want, caricature what they want. One interesting comment on one of the news links from Google was that regularly Islamic press caricatures Bush, Sharon or Jewish people, so surely it's fair to do the same.

Any thoughts? I am surprised however that so many central european newspapers repeated the cartoons - on the very same day. SO in any case, it must have been a relatively coordinated finger-up at the middle-east, which makes me PARANOID AND SUSPICIOUS!!!

Any thoughts?

Nuttzz

sounds like the arabs dont have a sense of humour....

do a google search for buddy jesus for example.....

Dave!

Check out this thread tbh

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=225541

GypsumFantastic

Muslim lack of humour, again. The demand to criticise the beliefs and customs of others whilst demanding freedom from criticism of their own beliefs and customs. It's good that other newspapers have shown solidarity in the face of this intimidation.

Captain Trips

Captain Trips wrote:

SO in any case, it must have been a relatively coordinated finger-up at the middle-east, which makes me PARANOID AND SUSPICIOUS!!!

To me, thinking a cartoon is some statement of aggression against the Arab people is the epitome of 'PARANOIA AND SUSPICION'. It's a joke, although the biggest crime may be that it simply doesn't sound like a very funny one...

ionapaul

Read a great overview from Wikipedia earlier today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy

While acknowledging that the cartoons are in poor taste, I agree with the many European editors who maintain that asking them to never print anything parodying or satirising Muhammad or Islam goes against the Western notion of free speech - it is possible to parody and satirise without stepping over the boundry of religious intolerance, isn't it? Most people worldwide are, rightly, fearful of ever criticising Islam or Muhammad publicly, knowing that death threats may follow.

RobEire

Fortunately this incident has helped many in Europe to discover their backbone - over the past few years it seemed to be missing. Hopefully the movers and shakers within the affected European countries will not sacrifice the hard won freedoms of free press/expression to placate people who increasingly it seems are impossible to please anyway.

magick

sounds like the arabs dont have a sense of humour....

completely agree, plus the have a right to print it for free speech if they want to. Though of course the PC Police will eventually come and complain :rolleyes:

Hagar

Just when I was thinking of a "Mohamed LOL" thread to go with the "Jesus LOL" thread in humour.

Wibbs

^^ Shows the difference though. Buddha LOL might be a thought though. No threat there, unless some saffron clothed monk meditating on your ass worries you...

Suff

It not the freedom of speech they oppose!
It's the insult and the mocking of the person of the prophet as a terrorist!


Why dont we all print a sketch on the people who died in 9/11, Black people oppression in the states or make fun of the so called Holocaust then we'll see the world's reaction!!!

would you call it freedom of speech then!?

by the way the editor of the French Mag was fired today.

RE*AC*TOR

http://www.uriasposten.net/pics/JP-011005-Muhammed-Westerga.jpg

Is that the cartoon in question? I don't see the big deal personally, mind you I think most people who are seriously into religion are a bit nuts anyway. To be honest, I wish they'd take their moral indignation and shove it right up their asses. Not just muslims, the Catholic church was the same until everyone (nearly) started to ignore them. All these makey-upey groups pretending to believe in something somebody may or may not have said several thousands of years ago. Its preposterous. People openly laugh at Scientologists, yet their crap is just as believable as any other religion's crap.

Wibbs

Suff wrote:

It not the freedom of speech they oppose!
It's the insult and the mocking of the person of the prophet as a terrorist!

It's insulting yes, but it doesn't deserve death threats.

Why dont we all print a sketch on the people who died in 9/11, Black people oppression in the states or make fun of the so called Holocaust then we'll see the world's reaction!!!

Go ahead. See the reaction. I'll bet you'll be sued and destroyed in the press. I seriously doubt you'll be threatened with death though.

would you call it freedom of speech then!?

In a way that's the price of same. You should be free to say anything. Equally those who disagree with you should be able to take you to task in a lawful way. Anything less is not freedom.

There's a thread in media you may be interested in that's covering this too http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054883864

Suff

Wibbs wrote:

It's insulting yes, but it doesn't deserve death threats.

Yes it is insulting and i think thats the point raised by the Muslims.

I dont agree there should be any death threats, it is mad!

Davei141

Why dont we all print a sketch on the people who died in 9/11, Black people oppression in the states or make fun of the so called Holocaust then we'll see the world's reaction!!!

Well, if you want to compare slavery, the death of 3000 people and the extermination of 6 million people to a cartoon of mohammed... its kind of stupid, no? Maybe a better comparison would be a cartoon of jesus! Oh wait, thats happened, alot.

http://www.austinimprov.com/~hujhax/files/images/1kbwc/04.04.10/Buddy%20Jesus.JPG

Have the skies fallen yet? Ive heard alot of people say stuff like "what if it was a picture of your mother sucking my dick? would you be offended?" Well no, its a drawing.

Jesus, lol.

Zombrex

Davei141 wrote:

Well, if you want to compare slavery, the death of 3000 people and the extermination of 6 million people to a cartoon of mohammed... its kind of stupid, no? Maybe a better comparison would be a cartoon of jesus! Oh wait, thats happened, alot.

The point Stuff was making is that there are things that western people hold a lot closer to their hearts than a picture of Jesus.

Look at something like the Brass Eye special about phedophiles a few years ago. Look at something like South Park. Hell christian groups have tried to get Friends banned.

I agree with everyone that satire and freedom of critisim is very important and that this cartoon should not be banned. And I think the muslim groups who are calling for this to be banned and are putting pressure on it to be censored are wrong. But then what do you expect them to do. Society should ignore them.

But I would point out that again this thread is close to turning into another "aren't we so much more enlightened than Muslims".

Stuff is pointing out that there are still things that would cause an equal uproar in a similar manner in western society, so we should be less quick to jump on the superiority band wagon.

super_furry

Just think back to the Paddy Power last supper series of poster adverts. The vast majority of people took them in the humour they were intended in and few people had any problem with them. Could you imagine the outcry if muslim iconography was used for a similar campaign? At the very least, a fatwah would be issued.

BuffyBot

Why dont we all print a sketch on the people who died in 9/11, Black people oppression in the states or make fun of the so called Holocaust then we'll see the world's reaction!!!

would you call it freedom of speech then!?

Why yes I would. And it's been done before, and probably will be done again without this kind of hysterical over-reaction.

Davei141

Wicknight wrote:

The point Stuff was making is that there are things that western people hold a lot closer to their hearts than a picture of Jesus.

Look at something like the Brass Eye special about phedophiles a few years ago. Look at something like South Park. Hell christian groups have tried to get Friends banned.

I agree with everyone that satire and freedom of critisim is very important and that this cartoon should not be banned. And I think the muslim groups who are calling for this to be banned and are putting pressure on it to be censored are wrong. But then what do you expect them to do. Society should ignore them.

But I would point out that again this thread is close to turning into another "aren't we so much more enlightened than Muslims".

Stuff is pointing out that there are still things that would cause an equal uproar in a similar manner in western society, so we should be less quick to jump on the superiority band wagon.

We call those whinging about cartoons like south park over in america (mainly), rightwing religious nutjobs. We call those threatening to blow up abortion clinics rightwing religious nutjobs, Nobody goes on about how we are racist or intolerant, or that were bashing christians, we all just agree that theyre crazy. Why shouldnt we treat those making threats and freaking out over a cartoon the same?

aren't we so much more enlightened than Muslims

Demonstrations against the cartoons took place in several Arab countries and the flags of Denmark and Norway were burned in streets across the Middle East. The controversy produced labour strikes and protests in Pakistan, and mass demonstrations in Baghdad in Iraq. In Palestine, thousands of people participated in demonstrations and gunmen in the Gaza Strip threatened violence against any Scandinavians in the area. The European Union's Gaza offices were raided by 15 masked gunmen from the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades. They demanded apologies from Denmark and Norway, but left 30 minutes later without any shots being fired or injuries caused.

Just read this for how enlightened alot of them seem to be. A newspaper printed a cartoon, not scandinavia, not denmark, not norway.

Suff

very silly to state that arabs are not as enlightened as the west or have no sence of humor!

What you might need to consider that there are people in the world who still hold faith /values / religion as important and sacred and would oppose insults or "make fun" images
unlike the "west' as you put it where it seemes they have lost respect for everything and nothing is sacred to them!!!

I would consider any sketch making fun of Jesus or Moses as insult to me as a Muslim.

Wibbs

Suff wrote:

Black people oppression in the states or make fun of the so called Holocaust then we'll see the world's reaction!!!

Thanks Davei141 I just spotted that. So called eh? Hmmm. Care to explain?

wicknight wrote:

The point Stuff was making is that there are things that western people hold a lot closer to their hearts than a picture of Jesus.

True, but would you get the amount of people we're seeing in the Islamic world putting up such a fuss about it? Eh no, we wouldn't.

Look at something like the Brass Eye special about phedophiles a few years ago. Look at something like South Park. Hell christian groups have tried to get Friends banned.

Did you hear about closing of diplomatic centers or death threats with any of those nutters. Eh that would be no again then.

I agree with everyone that satire and freedom of critisim is very important and that this cartoon should not be banned. And I think the muslim groups who are calling for this to be banned and are putting pressure on it to be censored are wrong.

Actually, I don't think they're wrong to call for a banning. I think they're wrong to start threatening willy nilly though.

But then what do you expect them to do.

Act in a grown up civilised responsible manner perhaps?

In fairness there have been calls for cop on in the Muslim world. Notably from a newspaper editor in Jordan called ironically enough Mr. Jihad Momani who suggested that "Muslims of the world should be reasonable about this".

Society should ignore them.

Hard when death threats are flying all over the shop.

Stuff is pointing out that there are still things that would cause an equal uproar in a similar manner in western society, so we should be less quick to jump on the superiority band wagon.

And I'm pointing out that while that level of uproar might happen(doubt it), the kind of reaction would be far different.

Zombrex

Davei141 wrote:

We call those whinging about cartoons like south park over in america (mainly), rightwing religious nutjobs. We call those threatening to blow up abortion clinics rightwing religious nutjobs
...
Just read this for how enlightened alot of them seem to be.

I hope you see the irony in that ... when a Christian group with large support and positions of power call for the banning of the Beatles or the Life of Brian or South Park, well that isn't really a reflection on our society, it is rightwing nut jobs who are a small small percentage of our society (despite the fact that they actually tend to hold quite high positions of power, Life of Brian was banned by a number of local councils in England).

But when Muslim groups and athorities call for the banning of a cartoon depicting Muhammad as a sucide bomber, and some nut jobs call for heads, well thats the unenlightened Muslims again, speaking as one group, one religion, one mind.

How many of the 1.2 billion Muslims in the world actually went nuts over this cartoon?

Zombrex

Wibbs wrote:

True, but would you get the amount of people we're seeing in the Islamic world putting up such a fuss about it? Eh no, we wouldn't.

Publish a cartoon saying the holocaust was made up, we will see how little fuss is made about that in Europe.

Wibbs wrote:

Did you hear about closing of diplomatic centers or death threats with any of those nutters. Eh that would be no again then.

What are you basing that on? People get death threats all the time. A previous class of my masters course recieved death threats from Christian groups for a class project ffs. They just don't make the news, and it doesn't fit into our idea of what western society is, yet it fits perfectly into our idea of fundamentalist Islam.

I would be very interested to see side by side the number of reported death threats in somewhere like America by Christian groups and by Islamic groups.

Religous fundamentalism is religious fundamentalism.

Davei141

Wicknight wrote:

I hope you see the irony in that ... when a Christian group with large support and positions of power call for the banning of the Beatles or the Life of Brian or South Park, well that isn't really a reflection on our society, it is rightwing nut jobs who are a small small percentage of our society (despite the fact that they actually tend to hold quite high positions of power, Life of Brian was banned by a number of local councils in England).

But when Muslim groups and athorities call for the banning of a cartoon depicting Muhammad as a sucide bomber well thats the unenlightened Muslims again, one group, one religion, one mind.

Yeah, they just called for the banning of the cartoon. :rolleyes:

On the 2006-01-31 bomb threats were made against the newspaper's offices in Århus and Copenhagen.

At the same time the Danish government learned that a fatwa had been declared against the Danish troops stationed in Iraq.

Suff

Wibbs wrote:

So called eh? Hmmm. Care to explain?

Sure , I delebretly used that term to see reactions on the board.
my point..... people will react to that as more offensive than a picture that insults Muhammad/Christ/Moses (PBUT)

forget the term freedom of speech..no one is against it, the problem lies in the "idea/ image/concept" that is being portrayed in the published images.

another thing...what is the idea, reason behind publishing such images?
what's the message?

Davei141

Wicknight wrote:

Religous fundamentalism is religious fundamentalism.

So why are you on your high horse when its islamic fundamentalism? Theres plenty of topics relating to the christians in america threatening this and that, even threatening to blow up an abortion clinic. You think people think its acceptable when its christian nutjobs as opposed to islamic?

fly_agaric

Suff wrote:

Sure , I delebretly used that term to see reactions on the board.
my point..... people will react to that as more offensive than a picture that insults Muhammad/Christ/Moses (PBUT)

Ya, whats up with that? What's denying/making light of so many deaths compared to insulting the holy prophet!

Suff wrote:

forget the term freedom of speech..no one is against it, the problem lies in the "idea/ image/concept" that is being portrayed in the published images.

Er...thats the thing with freedom of speech. People will use it to express ideas that other people hate, that are insulting. I think there should be limits on freedom of speech, but putting religion out of bounds is going too far.

Suff wrote:

another thing...what is the idea, reason behind publishing such images?
what's the message?

I think the original cartoonist(s) were basically chumming the waters. They wanted to see what kind of reaction it would provoke. It's very, very rare that Islam has been insulted/mocked in Western media while the various flavours of Christianity have been fair game for a long time. IMO this is because muslims are a minority in the West.

Anyway, the reaction has been entirely predictable. Right down to the crazed mobs chanting in the street and warming themselves with the Danish flag! Good show!

Hobbes

Wicknight wrote:

The point Stuff was making is that there are things that western people hold a lot closer to their hearts than a picture of Jesus.

Thank you. The main issue here.

While I don't condone the attacks, calls for murder lets face the facts here. It is considered offensive to insult Mohammad in Islamic religon. The west has known about this for years, clear examples Rushdie and the Miss World pagent in Nigeria.

Vangelis

Many people here obviously don't understand the Muslims' reaction.

I do, without being a Muslim. I'm a Christian. Christians are offended day in and day out by such caricatures. But we hardly react - we're too used to it. We let people do it and care nought about it. Of course it hurts, but it's the way the world goes.

But to Muslims, this is a very sensitive subject. They do not allow for depictions of Allah or the prophet Muhammed. As far as I know, the Qu'ran does not state that this is prohibited, but the Muslim communities have considered this prohibited for... as long as that religion has existed probably.

I do understand why they are offended. You could say that "they are pretty over-sensitive", and you're probably outlandish - in every sense - if that is your opinion.

In response to the horrified reactions to the caricatures, Danish and Norwegian news editors claim that they have "a right to free speech"].

Where is free speech in a caricature? Surely, they could have printed the article WITHOUT the caricature! And they wouldn't have ended up with so much annoyance. The article would still have been good and created debate. But now, in many Muslims' eyes, they are war-mongers.

Their arguement, that it's about free speech, is flawed and full of pride.

There is something called respect! There is something called discretion!

Free speech has in this case made two news magazines inflated. They are to proud and adamant to apologise for the offense they have made.

The death-threats are horrible. But what else can one expect?

Norway has good bonds with Pakistan and other Saudi-Arabian countries. We(I'm Norwegian, hence the word we) are now facing a possible boikot of the products we sell to these countries. This wonderful thing called "free speech", and incorrectly so, is damaging our bonds with parts of these countries.

Fun isn't it.

Vangelis

I have to add that..

It is disappointing to see how the Islamic communities hold the whole Norwegian and Danish governments responsible for these offenses. That is unfair.

One very prominent Muslim in Norway, mullah Krekar, has expressed his opinion: "Norway has declared war on Islam". That is unfair. You cannot hold a whole population of 4,5 million people responsible for one caricature in a newspaper that has a limited number of readers!

mike65

Morning Ireland had an interview with a bod from The Observer newspaper, the fact of UK media not publishing these pix came up. He suggested the media in Britian was sensitive to the feelings of Islam..............after the July bombings.

So there we are then, show respect or get blown up and if you have been blown up then you'll be very,very careful now.

Mike.